I didn't see any pop-up in 15 ish hours of constant play. The lack of protection from other players being able to use macros is actually the main reason I have stopped playing this event.
You had been leading. I was wondering why you were not anymore.
I too have never seen the message. I thought maybe it is for repetitive tasks.
But, I think I would have seen it by now.🙄
Ive still gotten pop ups, but not really sure how the timer works? seems pretty inconsistent to me, but I have gotten them.
My guess the real reason they are trying to force people to change officers for skirmishes, by making it trait dependent is to help eliminate Macro and auto play.
Thou to play devils advocate.... I do find it unlikely that anyone "one" person, can earn 120k VP per hour for 56 straight hours;) which is what would be required
Someone plays a **tsk tsk** ton of poker. It would be interesting to play a hand with someone who has been up for so long they're actually hallucinating what cards they have in their hand,
Ive still gotten pop ups, but not really sure how the timer works? seems pretty inconsistent to me, but I have gotten them.
My guess the real reason they are trying to force people to change officers for skirmishes, by making it trait dependent is to help eliminate Macro and auto play.
Thou to play devils advocate.... I do find it unlikely that anyone "one" person, can earn 120k VP per hour for 56 straight hours;) which is what would be required
Well, it will only negatively impact macros if the traits are changed randomly each battle, and there's no single character that will work on all. If the change in trait is predictable, it will massively benefit macro users as they won't have to search for the crew each time (which will save them time), and people playing would have to concentrate a lot more (which is tiring and can't do much else at the same time).
In terms of that point average you referenced, it's important to note that the leader's VP an hour when playing is significantly higher than that. So in the context of that player his current accumulated VP is very much possible for a single extremely committed player. And there's really no reason to doubt that he's playing STT and poker. I wish him all the best in the event, was fun playing with him at the start of the event.
If they randomly reversed the buttons for abandon skirmish and start engage, wouldn’t that stop most simple macros? You could also do the same for the confirmation yes and no buttons if you accidentally hit abandon button. Of course, one could program OCR but that is a little more effort for a little game...
Because adding traits isn’t going to do it if you can match 3 or 4 (let alone all 5) with bonus crew, you would still run a macro and deal with the 250-500 lost VP which means you wan 5500VP per run instead of 6000VP but if you are running a zillion more skirmishes than humanly possible which more than makes up for the lost 10% VP...
EDIT: the abandon button brings up a cancel or confirm pop up, not a yes or no... Maybe they should keep it simple like “Do you really want to abandon the skirmish? yes/no”
I’m hearing that here is a lot of chat on discord about lots of people still using macros. I think this is valuable and I recommend that you post 2 graphs, 1-25 and 26-50. As someone on the edge of top 50, I’d like to know how many of the people in front of me are just cranking macros out.
That said, it’ll be hard to spot people who play sometimes, rest sometimes and pump macros for 1-2 hours at a time to make it look legit.
As the player In first, if anyone would like to drop by the Bellagio, you can find me tapping away at a poker table where I was from 11 am pacific yesterday to 6am pacific today. And again starting at about 10:30 am pacific today.
Playing long poker sessions is something I’ve done for quite a while and putting a phone on the rail and tapping isn’t much extra work.
Wow, you must be one heck of a special VIP since casinos do not allow use of cellphones at their gaming tables.
You must have some deep concentration and a real multitasker to be able to do all that and without much sleep.😜 I'm assuming you play Texas hold'em and therefore fold a lot of hands so have time between plays.
I live in Laughlin and play whenever I get time. But I couldn't do what you do and be able to focus on the players tells. Hat's off.
BTW, Did you play in or see the WSOP?
That is less suspicious than the players in two and three. I can see the line is not smooth, there are a lot of short, un-even breaks, plus one longer one.
The player currently in third place has one very long, and very linear slope, slightly greater than yours. He then stops very abruptly.
Red, currently in two is the suspicious one. The line is almost linear, he may have taken short breaks to warp-10 ship battles and get intel. His slope is about 5/6 of you and two, as if he is using Ru'afo and has not discovered the bug.
Maybe the player lost his internet connection? Happened to me last event because of a big storm hit about 7:30pm Sat. and knock out the power, even the 3g. Power wasn't restored til 5am next morning and internet wasn't fully back til the next day, 3g was also slow as hell. Lost a lot of time and opportunity.
Since DB has remained silent on the issue, and since it's clear from side chats on discord and other platforms that many players are still able to successfully macro the "revamped" skirmishes, it's up to us to keep the spotlight on this issue. It's pretty clear that DB hasn't been able to figure out an appropriate macro-buster, but I hope they keep going back to the drawing board. We've given some good ideas in this thread about the importance of randomization -- but the drawback there is that it can't be too punishing for human players.
One of my fleetmates suggested a simple math problem popup after a while, something that even a tired human could do that would be difficult for a macro to do.
Since DB has remained silent on the issue, and since it's clear from side chats on discord and other platforms that many players are still able to successfully macro the "revamped" skirmishes, it's up to us to keep the spotlight on this issue. It's pretty clear that DB hasn't been able to figure out an appropriate macro-buster, but I hope they keep going back to the drawing board. We've given some good ideas in this thread about the importance of randomization -- but the drawback there is that it can't be too punishing for human players.
One of my fleetmates suggested a simple math problem popup after a while, something that even a tired human could do that would be difficult for a macro to do.
I really appreciate that you are taking a stand on this given your influence in the community.
Since DB has remained silent on the issue, and since it's clear from side chats on discord and other platforms that many players are still able to successfully macro the "revamped" skirmishes, it's up to us to keep the spotlight on this issue. It's pretty clear that DB hasn't been able to figure out an appropriate macro-buster, but I hope they keep going back to the drawing board. We've given some good ideas in this thread about the importance of randomization -- but the drawback there is that it can't be too punishing for human players.
One of my fleetmates suggested a simple math problem popup after a while, something that even a tired human could do that would be difficult for a macro to do.
Yah what is that thing that websites use, capitcha? Or something, where you have to enter in something specific to prove your not a human, I guess it all depends what DB are willing and able to code.
Thou honestly, there seems to be ways around everything. I would say that the bigger issue then auto play, is multi User, seeing as human players play faster then auto anyways. Really no way to prevent shared accounts that I can think of.
Ill probably get flamed for this, but dont really care;) but here is a novel idea. Instead of forcing us to do hundreds of repetitive battles, DB could add a built in auto program, that many other games use for farming, and that would put everyone on equal footing, with the option of doing manual for increased speed or cause masochists like doing it;)
You must have some deep concentration and a real multitasker to be able to do all that and without much sleep.😜 I'm assuming you play Texas hold'em and therefore fold a lot of hands so have time between plays.
I live in Laughlin and play whenever I get time. But I couldn't do what you do and be able to focus on the players tells. Hat's off.
BTW, Did you play in or see the WSOP?
I did come out for the main event for the first time this year, lasted until day three and got knocked out a few hundred people short of the money.
I usually play limit Holden, so while the game is fast moving the decisions are usually pretty standard and almost never take more than 2-3 seconds. Also a lot easier to play while a little tired, would never play nl for more than 10-12 hours at a time.
I really appreciate that you are taking a stand on this given your influence in the community.
I don't really know how much influence I have with other folks, but I can only say what I think. I have the impression that a lot of people are adopting a "can't beat them, join them" stance, so every little voice speaking out helps combat that.
At first, before DB put out the statement saying that macro use was not allowed in the game, I viewed it as kind of a gray area. Now, since they've come out and said that using a macro is not in keeping with the TOS, I view it pretty clearly as cheating, and I think cheating is abhorrent. At the risk of turning into Hillary, using a macro is deplorable. I'm not winning any friends with this stance, but I'm not going to compromise my beliefs for popularity.
People in my fleet have been approached by others asking for our macro or offering a macro because there's an impression that all major fleets are doing it. We absolutely are not, and I'll boot anyone who does -- hard line. I've updated all of eXo's recruiting posts to very clearly state that we, as a fleet, take a hard line stance against macro usage and anyone using one will be removed. Edit because I was sounding a little like a tyrant -- We openly discussed that stance before I did so. The entire fleet has agreed and rallied around behind it. I'm so very proud of the amazing group of people I'm playing this game with.
I know there are a few fleets out there with a similar stance, and a few with a softer stance (like don't ask, don't tell or don't do it on your account with us, but you can do it on other accounts in different fleets). I can't force DB to hold players accountable for their actions. But I can be very clear about what I think: It's not something everyone else is doing. It's not something you have to do to keep up. Hell, the guy in first, Paladin, has been coming here in proving that he's a human putting in one hell of an effort to keep that lead. Saying that you need to use a macro to win is just wrong.
I did not think skirmishes were Macroable.
However, I just watched my battle and realized if you macroed the longest battle repeat it 5 times, it is possible.
Solution when battle ends. Put buttons where the crew are that says do not click. If clicked, maybe this would be the time for some of the suggestions like a math formula, captcha, or random window location message.
It should be simple to detect macro like behaviour. Long sessions with buttons pressed at set intervals.
For skirmishes, have different length animations at the start of the skirmish. Sometimes do away with the animation, sometimes make it 10s. Do the same for the animation at the end.
Code a simple captcha, display four cards with the message "click on Kirk", or Worf, Sisko, Burnham or any other main crew. Failure to click on the right card, or click on any card in 30s and it exits the game. When the game is reloaded put an extra 30s delay before it can be played.
If the captcha fails a second time, increase the loading delay.
I'll be honest, most of these lines don't look like macros to me, they're too lumpy and inconsistent. There are probably some folks with serious sleep deprivation out there, but that's a perfectly respectable way to win. One of the lines looks suspicious to me, but I wouldn't make accusations without knowing more. Besides, the iffy line didn't come close to winning.
I'll be honest, most of these lines don't look like macros to me, they're too lumpy and inconsistent. There are probably some folks with serious sleep deprivation out there, but that's a perfectly respectable way to win. One of the lines looks suspicious to me, but I wouldn't make accusations without knowing more. Besides, the iffy line didn't come close to winning.
Someone mentioned somebody had some help playing. But I suppose, there is no way to stop that. I just feel for anybody who gets hardly any sleep and gets beaten by someone who had help.
Limit playing time to 18 hours for every 24 hours.
That would help but still not going to stop sharing.
But then someone putting in the effort for all those 18 hours would beat a shared account, because they would need a moment to switch.
Limit playing time to 18 hours for every 24 hours.
That's a great idea. Might be hard to implement technically, if they're not able to tell the difference between "on in background" and "played"... but they could do something like requiring CAPTCHAS with increasing frequency based on the number of taps in a 24 hour period. But I think you're right, having some sort of rate limit, even if it's a soft limit, seems crucial.
Someone mentioned somebody had some help playing. But I suppose, there is no way to stop that. I just feel for anybody who gets hardly any sleep and gets beaten by someone who had help.
Limit playing time to 18 hours for every 24 hours.
That would help but still not going to stop sharing.
But then someone putting in the effort for all those 18 hours would beat a shared account, because they would need a moment to switch.
It might help some account for at least the sleep part of shared accounts but even with that there would be an advantage since players could alternate.
When trying pretty much all out with intel farmed I think 160-165k was my max per hour and that was only for a few hours at once. For longer play 140-150k an hour was more typical and sustainable.
The hardest thing to check are what I would call Hybrid macro users, those who follow normal patterns and do play sometimes, but will also supplement that with macro use to allow downtime. I think that any user smart enough to develop and cheat using macros is going try to mimic real life play patterns by using macros to supplement real play and give them an edge. 72 hours of identical play are gonna get flagged really fast. So how do you pick out real play from supplemented play is the challenge.
Paladin who did finish 1st, shows the 3 hallmarks of real play:
- 4 significant breaks for rest,
- "wobbly" insonsistent earnings lines the demonstrate variability of play,
- Different win rate slopes depending on focus and ability to play
Without trying to call anyone out (and I'm glad the event is over, so I have no idea who ranked where) I found 1 maybe 2 of these results to be concerning.
2 users demonstrated only 1 or 2 breaks. This could be obsessive playing, sleep deprivation and drive, but it is a flag
These 2 users also had long stretches (~24 hours with unbelievably consistent winning curves with almost no wobble). Again, this could be focus and drive, but I struggle to see how there weren't pauses for eating, momentary distractions, bathroom breaks, etc. (again, see the other 8 results)
At least one of these users had identical slopes of win rates for long periods of time (you can draw a 12 hour line over their win rate, and it lines up perfectly with the slopes in 4 or 5 other places.
Note: it is really possible that people pulled this off without cheating. I have seen people perform insane feats of self deprivation with lots of caffeine, candy bars and music. The point is more that the lack of any indication from DB that they are stopping macros, combined with a lot of chatter that people are using macros adds more distrust to the validity of the format.
Breaks, don t indicate if there was macro use or not. After DBs clear message that its against TOS and after the charts provided in here, i am pretty sure macro users would do several breaks on purpose so they don t look suspicious.
And btw 24/7 macro play isn t even necessary to reach a high rank or win the event.
1 complete skirmish run(5 battles) takes like around 2.5 minutes, so u can do 24 runs an hour, which is like 144k VP, if every run delivers 6k VP.
So even if u only run macros for like 2x 5hs a day, u end up with almost 6m VP. Just an example.
Sadly DBs protections against macro use were prob , and as many expected before this event, useless.
During the hole event, i didn t saw a single „take a break“ pop up. Regardless i usually leave my gam running in the background all the time, and played skirmish for 4hs straight.
Comments
You had been leading. I was wondering why you were not anymore.
I too have never seen the message. I thought maybe it is for repetitive tasks.
But, I think I would have seen it by now.🙄
My guess the real reason they are trying to force people to change officers for skirmishes, by making it trait dependent is to help eliminate Macro and auto play.
Thou to play devils advocate.... I do find it unlikely that anyone "one" person, can earn 120k VP per hour for 56 straight hours;) which is what would be required
Check out our website to find out more:
https://wiki.tenforwardloungers.com/
Well, it will only negatively impact macros if the traits are changed randomly each battle, and there's no single character that will work on all. If the change in trait is predictable, it will massively benefit macro users as they won't have to search for the crew each time (which will save them time), and people playing would have to concentrate a lot more (which is tiring and can't do much else at the same time).
In terms of that point average you referenced, it's important to note that the leader's VP an hour when playing is significantly higher than that. So in the context of that player his current accumulated VP is very much possible for a single extremely committed player. And there's really no reason to doubt that he's playing STT and poker. I wish him all the best in the event, was fun playing with him at the start of the event.
Because adding traits isn’t going to do it if you can match 3 or 4 (let alone all 5) with bonus crew, you would still run a macro and deal with the 250-500 lost VP which means you wan 5500VP per run instead of 6000VP but if you are running a zillion more skirmishes than humanly possible which more than makes up for the lost 10% VP...
EDIT: the abandon button brings up a cancel or confirm pop up, not a yes or no... Maybe they should keep it simple like “Do you really want to abandon the skirmish? yes/no”
That said, it’ll be hard to spot people who play sometimes, rest sometimes and pump macros for 1-2 hours at a time to make it look legit.
Maybe the player lost his internet connection? Happened to me last event because of a big storm hit about 7:30pm Sat. and knock out the power, even the 3g. Power wasn't restored til 5am next morning and internet wasn't fully back til the next day, 3g was also slow as hell. Lost a lot of time and opportunity.
One of my fleetmates suggested a simple math problem popup after a while, something that even a tired human could do that would be difficult for a macro to do.
Proud Former Officer of The Gluten Empire
Retired 12-14-20. So long, and thanks for all the cat pics!
I really appreciate that you are taking a stand on this given your influence in the community.
Yah what is that thing that websites use, capitcha? Or something, where you have to enter in something specific to prove your not a human, I guess it all depends what DB are willing and able to code.
Thou honestly, there seems to be ways around everything. I would say that the bigger issue then auto play, is multi User, seeing as human players play faster then auto anyways. Really no way to prevent shared accounts that I can think of.
Ill probably get flamed for this, but dont really care;) but here is a novel idea. Instead of forcing us to do hundreds of repetitive battles, DB could add a built in auto program, that many other games use for farming, and that would put everyone on equal footing, with the option of doing manual for increased speed or cause masochists like doing it;)
I did come out for the main event for the first time this year, lasted until day three and got knocked out a few hundred people short of the money.
I usually play limit Holden, so while the game is fast moving the decisions are usually pretty standard and almost never take more than 2-3 seconds. Also a lot easier to play while a little tired, would never play nl for more than 10-12 hours at a time.
I don't really know how much influence I have with other folks, but I can only say what I think. I have the impression that a lot of people are adopting a "can't beat them, join them" stance, so every little voice speaking out helps combat that.
At first, before DB put out the statement saying that macro use was not allowed in the game, I viewed it as kind of a gray area. Now, since they've come out and said that using a macro is not in keeping with the TOS, I view it pretty clearly as cheating, and I think cheating is abhorrent. At the risk of turning into Hillary, using a macro is deplorable. I'm not winning any friends with this stance, but I'm not going to compromise my beliefs for popularity.
People in my fleet have been approached by others asking for our macro or offering a macro because there's an impression that all major fleets are doing it. We absolutely are not, and I'll boot anyone who does -- hard line. I've updated all of eXo's recruiting posts to very clearly state that we, as a fleet, take a hard line stance against macro usage and anyone using one will be removed. Edit because I was sounding a little like a tyrant -- We openly discussed that stance before I did so. The entire fleet has agreed and rallied around behind it. I'm so very proud of the amazing group of people I'm playing this game with.
I know there are a few fleets out there with a similar stance, and a few with a softer stance (like don't ask, don't tell or don't do it on your account with us, but you can do it on other accounts in different fleets). I can't force DB to hold players accountable for their actions. But I can be very clear about what I think: It's not something everyone else is doing. It's not something you have to do to keep up. Hell, the guy in first, Paladin, has been coming here in proving that he's a human putting in one hell of an effort to keep that lead. Saying that you need to use a macro to win is just wrong.
Proud Former Officer of The Gluten Empire
Retired 12-14-20. So long, and thanks for all the cat pics!
However, I just watched my battle and realized if you macroed the longest battle repeat it 5 times, it is possible.
Solution when battle ends. Put buttons where the crew are that says do not click. If clicked, maybe this would be the time for some of the suggestions like a math formula, captcha, or random window location message.
For skirmishes, have different length animations at the start of the skirmish. Sometimes do away with the animation, sometimes make it 10s. Do the same for the animation at the end.
Code a simple captcha, display four cards with the message "click on Kirk", or Worf, Sisko, Burnham or any other main crew. Failure to click on the right card, or click on any card in 30s and it exits the game. When the game is reloaded put an extra 30s delay before it can be played.
If the captcha fails a second time, increase the loading delay.
Second Star to the Right - Join Today!
I'll be honest, most of these lines don't look like macros to me, they're too lumpy and inconsistent. There are probably some folks with serious sleep deprivation out there, but that's a perfectly respectable way to win. One of the lines looks suspicious to me, but I wouldn't make accusations without knowing more. Besides, the iffy line didn't come close to winning.
Someone mentioned somebody had some help playing. But I suppose, there is no way to stop that. I just feel for anybody who gets hardly any sleep and gets beaten by someone who had help.
Limit playing time to 18 hours for every 24 hours.
That would help but still not going to stop sharing.
But then someone putting in the effort for all those 18 hours would beat a shared account, because they would need a moment to switch.
That's a great idea. Might be hard to implement technically, if they're not able to tell the difference between "on in background" and "played"... but they could do something like requiring CAPTCHAS with increasing frequency based on the number of taps in a 24 hour period. But I think you're right, having some sort of rate limit, even if it's a soft limit, seems crucial.
It might help some account for at least the sleep part of shared accounts but even with that there would be an advantage since players could alternate.
When trying pretty much all out with intel farmed I think 160-165k was my max per hour and that was only for a few hours at once. For longer play 140-150k an hour was more typical and sustainable.
Paladin who did finish 1st, shows the 3 hallmarks of real play:
- 4 significant breaks for rest,
- "wobbly" insonsistent earnings lines the demonstrate variability of play,
- Different win rate slopes depending on focus and ability to play
Without trying to call anyone out (and I'm glad the event is over, so I have no idea who ranked where) I found 1 maybe 2 of these results to be concerning.
2 users demonstrated only 1 or 2 breaks. This could be obsessive playing, sleep deprivation and drive, but it is a flag
These 2 users also had long stretches (~24 hours with unbelievably consistent winning curves with almost no wobble). Again, this could be focus and drive, but I struggle to see how there weren't pauses for eating, momentary distractions, bathroom breaks, etc. (again, see the other 8 results)
At least one of these users had identical slopes of win rates for long periods of time (you can draw a 12 hour line over their win rate, and it lines up perfectly with the slopes in 4 or 5 other places.
Note: it is really possible that people pulled this off without cheating. I have seen people perform insane feats of self deprivation with lots of caffeine, candy bars and music. The point is more that the lack of any indication from DB that they are stopping macros, combined with a lot of chatter that people are using macros adds more distrust to the validity of the format.
And btw 24/7 macro play isn t even necessary to reach a high rank or win the event.
1 complete skirmish run(5 battles) takes like around 2.5 minutes, so u can do 24 runs an hour, which is like 144k VP, if every run delivers 6k VP.
So even if u only run macros for like 2x 5hs a day, u end up with almost 6m VP. Just an example.
Sadly DBs protections against macro use were prob , and as many expected before this event, useless.
During the hole event, i didn t saw a single „take a break“ pop up. Regardless i usually leave my gam running in the background all the time, and played skirmish for 4hs straight.
Invitation code: https://discord.gg/8Du7ZtJ
Well yeah, that is another way to do it....
I realy meant at the suspicious ones you were talking about.