What sample size of something that is supposed to be 80% coming in below 30% do you need for it to have been conclusive.
I'm only stating my own experience, not challenging anyone else's position, but in answer to your query, all of that is completely inconsequential to me. Like I said, I never gave a whit about the data collection posts, because I never had a problem with event shuttles, myself. To paraphrase White Clifford's "you be you", to each their own... but I refuse to get upset about something that I personally never saw as a problem. 🖖
Could you please continue the petty bickering? I find it most intriguing. ~ Data, ST:TNG "Haven"
At this point I just want a clear explanation of how shuttle success rates are calculated, assuming the front line calculation matches the back end calculation.
Seat #1 - SEC & MED
Seat #2 - MED & SEC
Option 1 - they have the same calculation, since order doesn't matter and it's 50/50 split
Option 2 - skill #1 + (skill #2 * 0.25) -- this is the generally accepted forum approach
Option 3 - (skill #1 * ???) + (skill #2 * ???) -- similar to option 2, but with unknown calculations for one/both skill(s)
Another issue that comes to mind is that the auto-sort of crew still seems to be based on option 1, which could very well lead people to select crew that are not optimized for the seat/shuttle.
Yet another issue is the impact of boosts. Depending on which option is correct, do boosts work differently when boosting skill #1 or skill #2? Does the visible boost in front line success rate correctly match the actual back end increase in success rates that the boost provides?
Soooooo many unanswered questions...
The numbers reported by the UI are Max Skill + 25% Lower Skill. Using your crew and looking at sort order with the two skills you can prove that calculation.
There is no way for us to know what the server calculates.
People ran the federation shuttles with 1 slot and saw a significant drop in actual success to reported success if the better skill was the second one show. But if the better skill was the first shown, then the success matched.
If people run that same test now, we can see if the reported success matched the actual success.
Boy this thread sure derailed quickly. I only wanted a place for those of us that wish to do some testing to refer to so we know what we're doing. I totally did not intend to rile everyone up about it again. If we could stick to that so the thread doesn't get closed, that would be great.
I too have never responded about this issue but, I guess, you can make it the opinion of 2??? I also have never experienced any issues with faction event shuttles but I have been reading the numerous posts of members that have, including all of the data collected and so on. Maybe it's because I've always worked in human resources and that has allowed me to clearly see multiple points of view on matters which helps me understand the frustration that many others are having with this issue. But, with that said, I will repeat that I never had (or thought I had) any issues with faction shuttles. Although I do not have any statistical information, in most faction events I usually have very high success rates with few failures (just lucky in that situation I guess). I hope everyone gets the answer(s) they are looking for so this issue can be put to rest.
At this point I just want a clear explanation of how shuttle success rates are calculated, assuming the front line calculation matches the back end calculation.
Seat #1 - SEC & MED
Seat #2 - MED & SEC
Option 1 - they have the same calculation, since order doesn't matter and it's 50/50 split
Option 2 - skill #1 + (skill #2 * 0.25) -- this is the generally accepted forum approach
Option 3 - (skill #1 * ???) + (skill #2 * ???) -- similar to option 2, but with unknown calculations for one/both skill(s)
Another issue that comes to mind is that the auto-sort of crew still seems to be based on option 1, which could very well lead people to select crew that are not optimized for the seat/shuttle.
Yet another issue is the impact of boosts. Depending on which option is correct, do boosts work differently when boosting skill #1 or skill #2? Does the visible boost in front line success rate correctly match the actual back end increase in success rates that the boost provides?
Soooooo many unanswered questions...
The numbers reported by the UI are Max Skill + 25% Lower Skill. Using your crew and looking at sort order with the two skills you can prove that calculation.
There is no way for us to know what the server calculates.
People ran the federation shuttles with 1 slot and saw a significant drop in actual success to reported success if the better skill was the second one show. But if the better skill was the first shown, then the success matched.
If people run that same test now, we can see if the reported success matched the actual success.
BUT, While I agree with that general statement, I've had Shuttles where The Mission was, say, DIP AND SEC. The crew I was using had a much higher DIP than SEC. However, using a 3* boost showed the same percentage boost (like 8-10% range) for either stat. So either the UI isn't adding them right, or it's evidence that AND doesn't work how we think.
At this point I just want a clear explanation of how shuttle success rates are calculated, assuming the front line calculation matches the back end calculation.
Seat #1 - SEC & MED
Seat #2 - MED & SEC
Option 1 - they have the same calculation, since order doesn't matter and it's 50/50 split
Option 2 - skill #1 + (skill #2 * 0.25) -- this is the generally accepted forum approach
Option 3 - (skill #1 * ???) + (skill #2 * ???) -- similar to option 2, but with unknown calculations for one/both skill(s)
Another issue that comes to mind is that the auto-sort of crew still seems to be based on option 1, which could very well lead people to select crew that are not optimized for the seat/shuttle.
Yet another issue is the impact of boosts. Depending on which option is correct, do boosts work differently when boosting skill #1 or skill #2? Does the visible boost in front line success rate correctly match the actual back end increase in success rates that the boost provides?
Soooooo many unanswered questions...
The numbers reported by the UI are Max Skill + 25% Lower Skill. Using your crew and looking at sort order with the two skills you can prove that calculation.
There is no way for us to know what the server calculates.
People ran the federation shuttles with 1 slot and saw a significant drop in actual success to reported success if the better skill was the second one show. But if the better skill was the first shown, then the success matched.
If people run that same test now, we can see if the reported success matched the actual success.
BUT, While I agree with that general statement, I've had Shuttles where The Mission was, say, DIP AND SEC. The crew I was using had a much higher DIP than SEC. However, using a 3* boost showed the same percentage boost (like 8-10% range) for either stat. So either the UI isn't adding them right, or it's evidence that AND doesn't work how we think.
To my knowledge, DB has never released specifics on how boosts are even supposed work with AND slots on the "lower" skill. Yes, adding a skill boost raises the same % regardless of which stat you are buffing, which seems to fly in the face of the "Higher + 25% of Lower" calculation, but without an official source to point at, we are left to trust that the "expected" algorithm is an accurate analog to the "actual" one.
I too have never responded about this issue but, I guess, you can make it the opinion of 2??? I also have never experienced any issues with faction event shuttles but I have been reading the numerous posts of members that have, including all of the data collected and so on. Maybe it's because I've always worked in human resources and that has allowed me to clearly see multiple points of view on matters which helps me understand the frustration that many others are having with this issue. But, with that said, I will repeat that I never had (or thought I had) any issues with faction shuttles. Although I do not have any statistical information, in most faction events I usually have very high success rates with few failures (just lucky in that situation I guess). I hope everyone gets the answer(s) they are looking for so this issue can be put to rest.
And that's the thing, I never experienced the issue in any significant way, because I was inadvertently using the prescribed workaround. That's the main reason some folks never saw the issue. I remember giving advice in my alliance chat about what I was doing and not experiencing the issue and getting nay sayed by some and others adopting the practice and experiencing better performance.
It's my own OCD where I would always match both skills. I dunno why, it's just how I rolled no matter who popped on top. Maybe its cause Galaxies sort without taking Traits into consideration and the top is not always the best choice. Maybe it's a side effect of growing up in an era of the "Clean Plate Club".
But I know when folks in my squad and fleet changed how they did things prior to what may have been a stealth fix to the way I was doing them, they had an increase in success. Maybe you were doing the same thing and didn't realize it. Maybe you just had the right combo of crew on top. I dunno.
It's my own OCD where I would always match both skills.
I think I know what you meant by this, but to clarify the workaround/fix to anyone else reading.
Yes you need to try and match both skills. BUT you must also prioritise the first skill as this is worth more than the second. The displayed success rate and recommended crew don’t reflect this.
At this point I just want a clear explanation of how shuttle success rates are calculated, assuming the front line calculation matches the back end calculation.
Seat #1 - SEC & MED
Seat #2 - MED & SEC
Option 1 - they have the same calculation, since order doesn't matter and it's 50/50 split
Option 2 - skill #1 + (skill #2 * 0.25) -- this is the generally accepted forum approach
Option 3 - (skill #1 * ???) + (skill #2 * ???) -- similar to option 2, but with unknown calculations for one/both skill(s)
Another issue that comes to mind is that the auto-sort of crew still seems to be based on option 1, which could very well lead people to select crew that are not optimized for the seat/shuttle.
Yet another issue is the impact of boosts. Depending on which option is correct, do boosts work differently when boosting skill #1 or skill #2? Does the visible boost in front line success rate correctly match the actual back end increase in success rates that the boost provides?
Soooooo many unanswered questions...
The numbers reported by the UI are Max Skill + 25% Lower Skill. Using your crew and looking at sort order with the two skills you can prove that calculation.
There is no way for us to know what the server calculates.
People ran the federation shuttles with 1 slot and saw a significant drop in actual success to reported success if the better skill was the second one show. But if the better skill was the first shown, then the success matched.
If people run that same test now, we can see if the reported success matched the actual success.
BUT, While I agree with that general statement, I've had Shuttles where The Mission was, say, DIP AND SEC. The crew I was using had a much higher DIP than SEC. However, using a 3* boost showed the same percentage boost (like 8-10% range) for either stat. So either the UI isn't adding them right, or it's evidence that AND doesn't work how we think.
I have no idea how boosts factor in, especially when you then add in event multiplier bonus. It wouldn't shock me if there is a second bug there but the impact is smaller so it would need a larger sample size to prove an issue.
It's my own OCD where I would always match both skills.
I think I know what you meant by this, but to clarify the workaround/fix to anyone else reading.
Yes you need to try and match both skills. BUT you must also prioritise the first skill as this is worth more than the second. The displayed success rate and recommended crew don’t reflect this.
That’s assuming it hasn’t been stealth fixed.
But not matching the first at all (matching only skill #2 since it was so strong in some instances with one character) was giving the most egregious variance which is what was killing some folks in my fleet.
It's my own OCD where I would always match both skills.
I think I know what you meant by this, but to clarify the workaround/fix to anyone else reading.
Yes you need to try and match both skills. BUT you must also prioritise the first skill as this is worth more than the second. The displayed success rate and recommended crew don’t reflect this.
That’s assuming it hasn’t been stealth fixed.
But not matching the first at all (matching only skill #2 since it was so strong in some instances with one character) was giving the most egregious variance which is what was killing some folks in my fleet.
What lead me to investigate this was an event where there were many shuttles with Eng first then another skill. Loaded the shuttle up with the second skill crew and just bombed every time.
It's my own OCD where I would always match both skills.
I think I know what you meant by this, but to clarify the workaround/fix to anyone else reading.
Yes you need to try and match both skills. BUT you must also prioritise the first skill as this is worth more than the second. The displayed success rate and recommended crew don’t reflect this.
That’s assuming it hasn’t been stealth fixed.
But not matching the first at all (matching only skill #2 since it was so strong in some instances with one character) was giving the most egregious variance which is what was killing some folks in my fleet.
What lead me to investigate this was an event where there were many shuttles with Eng first then another skill. Loaded the shuttle up with the second skill crew and just bombed every time.
You mean like the event we are in now with all the SCI and ENG and virtually nil bonus crew with those skills?
I dont know if i'm adding to the conversation or not, but I think I'm understanding the problem now. I have had 99% shuttles fail on the regular, and I can accept 1 or 2 out 100 , but not 1 of 10 or 1 of 20.
I don't think AND exists. At all. When you complete a shuttle mission it shows the value each crew contributed. Just looking at my last shuttle run, Weyoun clone 4 and Admiral Ross were both in AND slots. At the conclusion of the shuttle mission, the point value contributed shown is the same for the highest of the two traits (CMD in both cases).
What am I missing or where did I go wrong? I'm fairly new so I don't have all the background here.
What I am doing this event is the two 3 seat Klingon missions Controlling the Temporal and The Bravest of all. They each have one seat with an AND and the other two are single skill. I put a card in the AND seat that only has the second skill. The other two seats I am not matching the skills at all. The shown percentage is 58 for The Bravest of All and 54 for the other when I fill that seat only and doesn't change when I add the other two cards. I'm only at 1200 VP currently and I am not using any boosts. Unfortunately I am not getting to them every 3 hours but I hope to get a decent amount run.
I don't think AND exists. At all. When you complete a shuttle mission it shows the value each crew contributed. Just looking at my last shuttle run, Weyoun clone 4 and Admiral Ross were both in AND slots. At the conclusion of the shuttle mission, the point value contributed shown is the same for the highest of the two traits (CMD in both cases).
What am I missing or where did I go wrong? I'm fairly new so I don't have all the background here.
I think this is just a display at the end, not what is being calculated, but who knows since they aren't being transparent about it
Comments
I'm only stating my own experience, not challenging anyone else's position, but in answer to your query, all of that is completely inconsequential to me. Like I said, I never gave a whit about the data collection posts, because I never had a problem with event shuttles, myself. To paraphrase White Clifford's "you be you", to each their own... but I refuse to get upset about something that I personally never saw as a problem. 🖖
Could you please continue the petty bickering? I find it most intriguing.
~ Data, ST:TNG "Haven"
The numbers reported by the UI are Max Skill + 25% Lower Skill. Using your crew and looking at sort order with the two skills you can prove that calculation.
There is no way for us to know what the server calculates.
People ran the federation shuttles with 1 slot and saw a significant drop in actual success to reported success if the better skill was the second one show. But if the better skill was the first shown, then the success matched.
If people run that same test now, we can see if the reported success matched the actual success.
BUT, While I agree with that general statement, I've had Shuttles where The Mission was, say, DIP AND SEC. The crew I was using had a much higher DIP than SEC. However, using a 3* boost showed the same percentage boost (like 8-10% range) for either stat. So either the UI isn't adding them right, or it's evidence that AND doesn't work how we think.
To my knowledge, DB has never released specifics on how boosts are even supposed work with AND slots on the "lower" skill. Yes, adding a skill boost raises the same % regardless of which stat you are buffing, which seems to fly in the face of the "Higher + 25% of Lower" calculation, but without an official source to point at, we are left to trust that the "expected" algorithm is an accurate analog to the "actual" one.
And that's the thing, I never experienced the issue in any significant way, because I was inadvertently using the prescribed workaround. That's the main reason some folks never saw the issue. I remember giving advice in my alliance chat about what I was doing and not experiencing the issue and getting nay sayed by some and others adopting the practice and experiencing better performance.
It's my own OCD where I would always match both skills. I dunno why, it's just how I rolled no matter who popped on top. Maybe its cause Galaxies sort without taking Traits into consideration and the top is not always the best choice. Maybe it's a side effect of growing up in an era of the "Clean Plate Club".
But I know when folks in my squad and fleet changed how they did things prior to what may have been a stealth fix to the way I was doing them, they had an increase in success. Maybe you were doing the same thing and didn't realize it. Maybe you just had the right combo of crew on top. I dunno.
I think I know what you meant by this, but to clarify the workaround/fix to anyone else reading.
Yes you need to try and match both skills. BUT you must also prioritise the first skill as this is worth more than the second. The displayed success rate and recommended crew don’t reflect this.
That’s assuming it hasn’t been stealth fixed.
I have no idea how boosts factor in, especially when you then add in event multiplier bonus. It wouldn't shock me if there is a second bug there but the impact is smaller so it would need a larger sample size to prove an issue.
But not matching the first at all (matching only skill #2 since it was so strong in some instances with one character) was giving the most egregious variance which is what was killing some folks in my fleet.
What lead me to investigate this was an event where there were many shuttles with Eng first then another skill. Loaded the shuttle up with the second skill crew and just bombed every time.
You mean like the event we are in now with all the SCI and ENG and virtually nil bonus crew with those skills?
I found him a nice seat on a SCI and MED shuttle... but then there’s still the pure SCI shuttle which... I’ve got Surak on...
I don't think AND exists. At all. When you complete a shuttle mission it shows the value each crew contributed. Just looking at my last shuttle run, Weyoun clone 4 and Admiral Ross were both in AND slots. At the conclusion of the shuttle mission, the point value contributed shown is the same for the highest of the two traits (CMD in both cases).
What am I missing or where did I go wrong? I'm fairly new so I don't have all the background here.
I think this is just a display at the end, not what is being calculated, but who knows since they aren't being transparent about it