Do OR shuttles not qualify for Boosts for either skill anymore?

[SSR] GTMET

I swore that in the past as long as the skill you are boosting showed up on the shuttle slot in either AND or OR position, then that boost would count for the crew. it now seems that I am only getting the OR boost when the crew actually uses that skill.

i.e. Sci OR Sec if I put Falcon in, but put on a science boost, he isn't getting the boost. Is this new? or have I just not noticed since there were so many AND nodes before?

Dr. Creon (¥SA)

I'm not sure about it but I can say that my experience has always been that the boost only applies when the crew has the skill.

Paladin 27

[TFA] GTMET (DB - Do Better) wrote: »

I swore that in the past as long as the skill you are boosting showed up on the shuttle slot in either AND or OR position, then that boost would count for the crew. it now seems that I am only getting the OR boost when the crew actually uses that skill.

i.e. Sci OR Sec if I put Falcon in, but put on a science boost, he isn't getting the boost. Is this new? or have I just not noticed since there were so many AND nodes before?

It is a change to the forumla for on screen percentage, but I'm not sure when it was made as I haven't tested recently.

This was another of the theories I had about shuttle failures, that the server actually applied the boost to that characters skill before doing the and/or calculation and not to the slot after the and/or calc (as used to be the on screen percent). But testing boosts is pretty hard to do to have gotten any concrete data before.

[SSR] GTMET

I swear there was a post in the old forum when shuttle changes to and where made that said that the boost would now be calculated no matter which slot the crew was placed into. At this point, I now have no idea what the rules are/what they are supposed to be for AND or OR shuttles.

Cranky (SC)

ORgate? I’m not even going to touch this one.

<TGE> Clifford

You know, a SCI boost can apply without actually being useful.

Let's say you chose a blue SCI boost. Great! Now that's +250 SCI to Falcon's skills. So now he has 1353 SEC and 250 SCI. Times the 2x bonus for being event crew, so he now has 2706 SEC, and 500 SCI. Ok, so it's an OR seat. So the game will pick the higher skill value of the two. 2706 SEC. Did the blue SCI boost increase your odds of success? Nope!

SSR Barkley

I'm not seeing what you're seeing (original poster). what you described is happening, is not happening in my client

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Paladin 27

Here are a few examples about the logic difference.

Mirror data 1301 eng and 682 sci
Prophet at 1402 dip and 1134 sec

Prophet is in a dip or sec slot and getting 24% (1402 skill) normally, 27% with a sec boost (1834 if only added to sec) and 30% with a dip boost (2102). This makes sense if it adds to the skill of the boost

Now consider an eng and sci slot for mirror data. Unboosted he is at 1472x2=2943, boosting eng skill he should logically be at 2*((1301+700) + 682/4) or 4343. Boosting sci at 2*((682+700) + 1301/4) or 3415. Yet the percents are 32,44,44. If only the skill total of the boost was impacted the third data scenario would be in between the first two.

(edited for Clifford's corrections)

Peachtree Rex

Of course, all of this is predicated on the front-end display percentages being the same as the actual "success" back end calculation.

Paladin 27

Peachtree Rex wrote: »

Of course, all of this is predicated on the front-end display percentages being the same as the actual "success" back end calculation.

That is true. The fact they added to the slot equally for a lower skill being boosted was on my list of potential differences between on-screen and server and I had been adjusting to only boost higher skills if I could.

Dr. Creon (¥SA)

But GTMET is saying that if the crew does not have the skill at all he was under the impression that a skill boost would still add bonus in an OR shuttle. So using Paladin's crew example, put Prophet in the Com or Dip slot and add a Com boost. Or did I not understand the original post.

AviTrek

I always suspected there could be something funky with boosts and and/or. I don't think anyone has even tested that the way the straight and issue was tested.

Paladin 27

Dr. Creon (H31) wrote: »

But GTMET is saying that if the crew does not have the skill at all he was under the impression that a skill boost would still add bonus in an OR shuttle. So using Paladin's crew example, put Prophet in the Com or Dip slot and add a Com boost. Or did I not understand the original post.

I used a more nuanced example to have the lower skill in the OR be close enough to the higher skill that a boost could cause it to be overtaken, it still consistent with what GTMET posted.

The common understanding was that if you put the Prophet in a DIP or SEC slot and used either a DIP or SEC boost the result would be the same (the 30% shown above, not the 27 for the SEC case). At some point that changed to a more logical approach of adding to the actual skill (not the whole slot).

It still is using the adding to the whole slot for and shuttles. So there are two different approaches for skill boosts being used now on the displayed percentages.

[DB-DO BETTER] [7TW] Captain plim123

Peachtree Rex wrote: »

Of course, all of this is predicated on the front-end display percentages being the same as the actual "success" back end calculation.

Why would we need to make such an assumption? Why wouldn't we be able to trust DB at face value?

/sarcasm

<TGE> Clifford

Paladin 27 wrote: »

Here are a few examples about the logic difference.

Mirror data 1301 eng and 682 sci
Prophet at 1402 dip and 1134 sec

Prophet is in a dip or sec slot and getting 24% (1402 skill) normally, 27% with a sec boost (1884 if only added to sec) and 30% with a dip boost (2152). This makes sense if it adds to the skill of the boost

Now consider an eng and sci slot for mirror data. Unboostsd he is at 1472, boosting eng skill he should logically be at (1301+750) + 682/4 or 2222. Boosting sci at (682+750) + 1301/4 or 1758. Yet the percents are 32,44,44. If only the skill total of the boost was impacted the third data scenario would be in between the first two.

Ok, I feel bad for being that cronut here, but there are a few flaws in your math, and I'd like to clarify them-

First, according to the wiki, gold skill boosts are +700, not +750. Easy mistake to make.

Second, this is an event shuttle where variants of Data are 2x bonus crew.

So unboosted, his skills are 2602 ENG, and 1364 SCI. Unboosted, he is 2944 in that slot.

With an ENG boost, he should be 2[(1301+700) + (682/4)] or 4,344.

With a SCI boost, he should be 2[(682+700) + (1301/4)] or 3,414.

Doesn't change the conclusions, really, I'm just pedantic.

[SSR] GTMET

Paladin 27 wrote: »

Dr. Creon (H31) wrote: »

But GTMET is saying that if the crew does not have the skill at all he was under the impression that a skill boost would still add bonus in an OR shuttle. So using Paladin's crew example, put Prophet in the Com or Dip slot and add a Com boost. Or did I not understand the original post.

I used a more nuanced example to have the lower skill in the OR be close enough to the higher skill that a boost could cause it to be overtaken, it still consistent with what GTMET posted.

The common understanding was that if you put the Prophet in a DIP or SEC slot and used either a DIP or SEC boost the result would be the same (the 30% shown above, not the 27 for the SEC case). At some point that changed to a more logical approach of adding to the actual skill (not the whole slot).

It still is using the adding to the whole slot for and shuttles. So there are two different approaches for skill boosts being used now on the displayed percentages.

Exactly.... any idea when this changed? Was it announced anywhere?

Data1001

To me, it doesn't make a lick of sense that a skill would be boosted in an OR slot when the crew doesn't have that skill. If it once was set up that way, it shouldn't have been.

Paladin 27

<TGE> WhiteClifford wrote: »

Paladin 27 wrote: »

Here are a few examples about the logic difference.

Mirror data 1301 eng and 682 sci
Prophet at 1402 dip and 1134 sec

Prophet is in a dip or sec slot and getting 24% (1402 skill) normally, 27% with a sec boost (1884 if only added to sec) and 30% with a dip boost (2152). This makes sense if it adds to the skill of the boost

Now consider an eng and sci slot for mirror data. Unboostsd he is at 1472, boosting eng skill he should logically be at (1301+750) + 682/4 or 2222. Boosting sci at (682+750) + 1301/4 or 1758. Yet the percents are 32,44,44. If only the skill total of the boost was impacted the third data scenario would be in between the first two.

Ok, I feel bad for being that cronut here, but there are a few flaws in your math, and I'd like to clarify them-

First, according to the wiki, gold skill boosts are +700, not +750. Easy mistake to make.

Second, this is an event shuttle where variants of Data are 2x bonus crew.

So unboosted, his skills are 2602 ENG, and 1364 SCI. Unboosted, he is 2944 in that slot.

With an ENG boost, he should be 2[(1301+700) + (682/4)] or 4,344.

With a SCI boost, he should be 2[(682+700) + (1301/4)] or 3,414.

Doesn't change the conclusions, really, I'm just pedantic.

Should have had that cup of coffee an half an hour before posting instead of right after. For some reason I had 750 in my head. The data was being bonus I can add in as well, but the three data examples were already just relevant comparatively to each other, since the prophet shuttles have one few slot.

Paladin 27

Data1001 wrote: »

To me, it doesn't make a lick of sense that a skill would be boosted in an OR slot when the crew doesn't have that skill. If it once was set up that way, it shouldn't have been.

Part of why I used an example for the or where you had both skills but at different levels. In the or slot its boosting the skill matching the boost, could be the lower skill or higher skill. In the and slot its boosting the whole slot (or basically the higher skill), regardless of the skill boost used.

Data1001

Paladin 27 wrote: »

Data1001 wrote: »

To me, it doesn't make a lick of sense that a skill would be boosted in an OR slot when the crew doesn't have that skill. If it once was set up that way, it shouldn't have been.

Part of why I used an example for the or where you had both skills but at different levels. In the or slot its boosting the skill matching the boost, could be the lower skill or higher skill.

Well, your example makes perfect sense, and I don't have an issue with the lower skill being boosted in that case. I was just responding to the OP's example.

Paladin 27

Data1001 wrote: »

Paladin 27 wrote: »

Data1001 wrote: »

To me, it doesn't make a lick of sense that a skill would be boosted in an OR slot when the crew doesn't have that skill. If it once was set up that way, it shouldn't have been.

Part of why I used an example for the or where you had both skills but at different levels. In the or slot its boosting the skill matching the boost, could be the lower skill or higher skill.

Well, your example makes perfect sense, and I don't have an issue with the lower skill being boosted in that case. I was just responding to the OP's example.

Even non existent skills are still boosted now, they just are boosted from a starting point of 0 so they don't typically become the better skill for crew. You can toss ensign seska in a ENG or CMD seat on a 4 seater. She is at 16% (364 eng) unboosted on a 4k event shuttle. Add a gold eng boost and 21% (1064 eng). Add a gold cmd boost and 19% (700 cmd). So it still boosts a non existent skill now, just that it gives that skill a value of 0 or close to 0 (might be a non displayed small value it adds to).

Paladin 27

They also have a bug on the sort order, if there is an no crew member in the slot it sorts the new way, but if there is an existing crew member in the slot the sort still has the prior formula.

No crew



Existing crew

[SSR] GTMET

Paladin 27 wrote: »

They also have a bug on the sort order, if there is an no crew member in the slot it sorts the new way, but if there is an existing crew member in the slot the sort still has the prior formula.

No crew



Existing crew

Thanks for picking that up, I thought I was losing my mind when I was selecting crew.

[SSR] GTMET

Now I'm totally confused. I loaded these shuttles up to test the OR and now these work as if the OR is being applied regardless of if the crew has the trait. SCI should trigger twice and CMD should only trigger once. However, the %s displayed are identical:





However, when I load this shuttle up, same thing should happen, except now the boosts yield different displayed %s...... what the hell is going on here....