When I think of Archer, I don't think of "Starfleet's finest". He was a bad captain, a poor diplomat, arrogant, bizarrely xenophobic, and frequently childish. Bakula (whom I love!) was a bad fit for the role, and the role was badly written anyway.
Still, I kinda see why Archer was there. There's a need to have something different in each captain. TOS: young white man. TNG: old white man. DS9: black man. Voyager: woman. Enterprise: tool.
When I think of Archer, I don't think of "Starfleet's finest". He was a bad captain, a poor diplomat, arrogant, bizarrely xenophobic, and frequently childish. Bakula (whom I love!) was a bad fit for the role, and the role was badly written anyway.
Still, I kinda see why Archer was there. There's a need to have something different in each captain. TOS: young white man. TNG: old white man. DS9: black man. Voyager: woman. Enterprise: tool.
Kinda fitting, given his engineering background.
Bad fit for the role? Absolutely (which is odd, because he was so very good on Quantum Leap). The rest? Nah.
He was a test pilot turned into a starship captain without anything even remotely approaching the training, support, and institutional knowledge that even Kirk’s era enjoyed and ended up having to learn things on his own.
His diplomatic accomplishments are actually pretty impressive. Archer was the key figure in finally bringing an end to two centuries of Vulcan/Andorian conflict, enjoyed a mostly positive series of first contacts with other species, and managed to befriend members of a belligerent species.
Rather than being arrogant, Archer seemed to me to be somewhat timid until later into the Xindi conflict. And even then, I would say “obsessed with completing his mission” long before “arrogant.”
Xenophobic? The guy who was pleased as punch to meet new species and learn about their customs? We’re discussing Archer, not Tucker. Tucker never really shook his paternalistic view of other species’ cultural norms even though some of them fascinated him...Archer may have had trouble getting along with people like the Mazarites and Kreetassans but he was no xenophobe. Maybe a little isolationist and regretful in the aftermath of the Xindi crisis, but not for long.
I also don’t know that “childish” is there right adjective. This goes back to a test pilot being handed the keys to a ship of diplomacy and exploration - the only quality that is needed for both jobs is the capacity to make quick decisions...everything else about commanding humanity’s flagship had to be learned on the fly, usually the hard way.
He was a test pilot turned into a starship captain without anything even remotely approaching the training, support, and institutional knowledge that even Kirk’s era enjoyed and ended up having to learn things on his own.
No, he was a "trained diplomat". That's literally how Phlox described Archer. He apparently did have diplomatic training.
His diplomatic accomplishments are actually pretty impressive. Archer was the key figure in finally bringing an end to two centuries of Vulcan/Andorian conflict, enjoyed a mostly positive series of first contacts with other species, and managed to befriend members of a belligerent species.
Absolutely, those accomplishments were impressive. But we never saw him do anything that should have achieved them. We saw him whine and complain, we saw him ignore advice from those with more experience, we saw him pick fights and put his own pride ahead of the good of both his ship and Starfleet. And then the writers just wrote that he 'won the episode', resolved the conflict, saved the day or whatever, even though that didn't seem like it would have resulted from his words or actions.
Xenophobic? The guy who was pleased as punch to meet new species and learn about their customs?
....
I also don’t know that “childish” is there right adjective.
There are many examples, but as it looks like you've forgotten most of "A Night in Sickbay", I'll suggest that would be a good episode for you to see. And after that, I don't think you'd claim that he deserves a place as one of "Starfleet's finest".
Actually... no, sorry, I don't recommend you rewatch it. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. To save you from that fate, I'll just say that you're completely right about everything.
I will have to put up some facts this will take time. But I will be looking for the episode that Archer says he is not a trained diplomat and wouldn't someone else be better.
Memory Alpha says it's Trip that called Archer a Trained diplomat.
If I am right I will have to watch this Trip reference again.
Frankly I did not care for the episode either. One I thought it was stupid for him to have Pothos as a pet on the Enterprise in the first place. But second, "A Night in Sickbay" This whole thing is about what happens to Porthos after Archer takes Porthos to the planet where Archer already is dealing with diplomatic problems.
I mean the whole premise for the episode most likely would never happen. First off if on their previous attempt at diplomatic relations it fails because of a natural habit being offensive to them. You would never take your pet to their planet.
To me if I am right and Trip's comment says the opposite, it shows inconsistency in the writing. Of course we know that exists already. But it will be another example.
I cannot speak to the casting choice for Archer; I have no complaints, nor any ideas on who could have been better.
Regarding Archer the character, just my point zero two cents' worth, but I think he did remarkably well. Lest we forget that for two seasons he was actively trying to explore while being held back by the Romulans Vulcans, using a ship that was not yet fully operational, and literally writing the manual for Earth deep space exploration. I think it is very easy to say he was a bad captain when compared to future examples who had a much more defined job description, in large part due to people like Archer who quite literally carved the path.
I'd also just like to add with regard to commanding the ship and why they placed the test pilot in charge, all I can say is that he was the one person in the space program (that we saw) who had the respect of the entire crew, and when considering whom to hand the keys to the first ever ship of its kind for a first of its kind mission with very loose ideas as to what the job ultimately entails, having the respect of the entire crew was probably the single most important factor in choosing a commander. It is easy to point to Picard for example, as by that point the position of captain had a reverence of its own, but with Enterprise that was probably much less prominent.
I will have to put up some facts this will take time. But I will be looking for the episode that Archer says he is not a trained diplomat and wouldn't someone else be better.
Memory Alpha says it's Trip that called Archer a Trained diplomat.
In my defense, it's been nearly twenty years! I'm always happy to be corrected - and grateful that your correction there just confirms that Archer was supposed to be a trained diplomat, proving the point I was making! Thank you.
I'm going to stop thinking about Enterprise after posting this, as it does no good to dwell on painful memories, but just to share a couple more examples to help prove the pattern (again, off the top of my head, so please do correct any mistakes, no matter how irrelevant): Archer prepared to let his stranded shuttle crew die on a comet rather than asking a nearby Vulcan ship for help. T'Pol (I think!) practically had to trick him into saving the lives of his crew, just because Archer was childishly embarrassed about the size of his warp core. Starfleet's finest?
And the one that causes me the most pain: Archer's handling of a threatening Klingon ship (Sleeping Dogs, I think, from a quick Google search?). Archer's had experience of Klingons before, and now a Klingon ship is bearing down on Enterprise. Archer has to communicate with them to avoid a fight. When this premiered, it had me sit up in my seat. Here was going to be Archer's first defining moment! Here's where he has the opportunity to demonstrate that he can swallow his pride in order to save lives and avoid conflict! Yes, I thought, it'll have parallels to Picard's act at the end of Menage a Troi, but it'll be worth it to demonstrate that Archer is a proper captain. Oh, and then T'Pol (I think!) quickly reminds him exactly how Klingons behave with regards to honor, in case he's forgotten.
So then what does he do? Uses logic to tell the Klingons that they're unlikely to win the battle. And does it all with an arrogant sneer and challenging tone. If the episode runtime had allowed a further five seconds for this scene, he would have surely bared his teeth and started beating his chest! Logic shouldn't have deterred the Klingons from a fight, and his ridiculous posturing should have provoked them further!
But the writers saved the day by just writing that the Klingons flew away. No further explanation. Well done, Archer. You did exactly the wrong thing, and won. Starfleet's finest?
All that being said, I used to think the Enterprise writers had done a terrible job. And specifically in the case of Archer, I thought it was ridiculous that someone could always say the wrong thing, and win. Consistently do the wrong thing, and win. Be incredibly stupid, make embarrassingly awful decisions, and win, despite logic, and despite common sense. I thought a leader like that was impossible. But given the real-world events of the past few years, maybe the Enterprise writers were a lot smarter than I gave them credit for..?
Archer was badly written a lot of the time, but there were moments - not as many as I'd have liked, but there were - when I got what he was supposed to be. Enough to pretend that's who he is whenever he pops up in-game, anyway.
TBH I'm not sure about Georgiou. Sure, she seemed a fine person, and was obviously well loved by her crew, but between just not getting very much of her, and some suggestions that maybe she had some blind spots... I dunno. Not that I'd ever not want Michelle Yeoh around, but all things being equal I'd drop her and add Anson Mount Pike. Which I guess means it's a 4* slot that's open, so put in COP Founder Archer and let's pretend those six years we didn't see were Awesome Archer, and that's why they chose him to deliver the speech.
All I’m saying is once again the show is treated as if it didn’t exist
Well, a) lately there have been some new Archers, b) let´s not forget about Professor Sato and her awesome DIP skill or c) some quite useful Phloxes etc.
But I know where you are coming from. Since this is your favourite series you are simply hungry for more
All I’m saying is once again the show is treated as if it didn’t exist
Well, a) lately there have been some new Archers, b) let´s not forget about Professor Sato and her awesome DIP skill or c) some quite useful Phloxes etc.
But I know where you are coming from. Since this is your favourite series you are simply hungry for more
They added those as a courtesy cuz they realized how long it goes between Enterprise characters
They added those as a courtesy cuz they realized how long it goes between Enterprise characters
No matter what as the number 1 fan of the series in this forum you are a little too touchy about certain things. Like in this case the name and content of a pack.
Treating the show as if it didn´t exist as you said is a lil over the top. Not the favourite series of the STT designers, yes, that for sure. And since it was the final nail in the Star Trek (television) coffin for a long time one can even understand it a little...
They added those as a courtesy cuz they realized how long it goes between Enterprise characters
No matter what as the number 1 fan of the series in this forum you are a little too touchy about certain things. Like in this case the name and content of a pack.
Treating the show as if it didn´t exist as you said is a lil over the top. Not the favourite series of the STT designers, yes, that for sure. And since it was the final nail in the Star Trek (television) coffin for a long time one can even understand it a little...
You'd have a stronger argument if this was an isolated occurrence, but this happens with alarming regularity, and without @Banjo1012 speaking up it might happen more often.
I like Enterprise, too. Yes, I see the flaws, and yes, it is not worth a bunch of contention.
But it is also obvious that Enterprise receives from DB the most snubs and the least love of all the shows. It is nice that some of the crew gets occasional attention and good cards. It is also nice that Archer just got a new card. Enterprise still gets snubbed.
I also find it interesting that some of the people quickest to dismiss the claims against Enterprise are the first to complain when someone even hints that their favorite show may have negative bits.
Don't forget Archer kept feeding his dog, Porthos, cheese even when Phlox said it was bad for him and I would surmise bad for the crew as they did not want copious odiferous dog farts messing up the recycled air.
You'd have a stronger argument if this was an isolated occurrence, but this happens with alarming regularity, and without @Banjo1012 speaking up it might happen more often.
The argument is strong enough. Also since I admitted that Enterprise is not the favourite series of the developers for sure. And that can have many reasons next to personal taste and the fact that you cannot please everyone equally in a franchise with so many different facettes.
One could be that it was the franchise killer for a long time. Another could simply be lack of sales for Enterprise cards in STT (something we as players don´t know). Isolated voices furthermore have no impact on the development of stuff for this game. Many voices do.
STT is a business. Enterprise was not as well recieved as the other trek series and probably does not get as many buys as the other series do. It is also quite possible that DB did not think that Archer would be as desired in a pack that came out after the Archer event and not before. But honestly I think DB has listened to those that have wanted more Archer and Enterprise. Archer was just in last week's event and Trip is in next week's. So not sure what the complaint is except that the name of the pack is "Starfleet's finest" and by Archer not being in it some think DB is saying Archer is not one of the "finest." Many of the "finest" captains could not be in a pack that only has six people. Archer has been in packs before and will be again. So for those wanting more Archers in packs buy a ton of them that he is in to let DB know what you want and there will be a plethora of Archers.
Enterprise snubbing is a thing and everyone knows it. I’m merely pointing out another instance.
Yes certainly in the past but Enterprise has been in many events recently. Like I said the last event and the next event. You buy far more of these packs than I do. You are the target demographic. So to help DB, is there any Archers that you do not have fully starred or would want another copy of that DB could offer you and that you would buy? Mostly I think it is the whales buying these non event packs so what Archer would you or others buy?
Enterprise snubbing is a thing and everyone knows it. I’m merely pointing out another instance.
Yes certainly in the past but Enterprise has been in many events recently. Like I said the last event and the next event. You buy far more of these packs than I do. You are the target demographic. So to help DB, is there any Archers that you do not have fully starred or would want another copy of that DB could offer you and that you would buy? Mostly I think it is the whales buying these non event packs so what Archer would you or others buy?
I have never bought a Tuesday pack in my life so it wouldn’t help me there. I would be way more inclined to if it was the new legendary Plus two super rares, like event packs. Or if they gave us an offer of say $25 for 5 pulls again like event packs. As it stands, with two other legendaries in there I don’t want, there is a 3.3% chance of getting the new one. That’s a suckers bet. I do like the reward structure with the legendary being the next event crew. That way if I win, say three from the event, I know I can buy the $50 offer the next week. If I don’t get another copy through the pulls I can DYC and boom. 5 copies.
But to answer your question, Archer running on the platform while the Xindi weapon explodes would be great. Reed fighting Hayes would be cool. Hayes himself would be a good 4*. T’Pol on Vulcan. Harrad-Sar. The guy who played Odo had a great guest appearance. Admiral Forest. Brian Thompson playing the Romulan Admiral. Leuitenant Talas. The inventor of the transporter. There’s plenty of good ones
But to answer your question, Archer running on the platform while the Xindi weapon explodes would be great. Reed fighting Hayes would be cool. Hayes himself would be a good 4*. T’Pol on Vulcan. Harrad-Sar. The guy who played Odo had a great guest appearance. Admiral Forest. Brian Thompson playing the Romulan Admiral. Leuitenant Talas. The inventor of the transporter. There’s plenty of good ones
I agree! I bet we could come up with a dozen or more awesome Enterprise crew cards! I am still holding out hope for Trellium-D T'Pol.
I love Enterprise, I get choked up every time I watch that show with just how much pride that entire crew had for their ship/mission, because they knew how important it was.
I will have to put up some facts this will take time. But I will be looking for the episode that Archer says he is not a trained diplomat and wouldn't someone else be better.
Memory Alpha says it's Trip that called Archer a Trained diplomat.
In my defense, it's been nearly twenty years! I'm always happy to be corrected - and grateful that your correction there just confirms that Archer was supposed to be a trained diplomat, proving the point I was making! Thank you.
I'm going to stop thinking about Enterprise after posting this, as it does no good to dwell on painful memories, but just to share a couple more examples to help prove the pattern (again, off the top of my head, so please do correct any mistakes, no matter how irrelevant): Archer prepared to let his stranded shuttle crew die on a comet rather than asking a nearby Vulcan ship for help. T'Pol (I think!) practically had to trick him into saving the lives of his crew, just because Archer was childishly embarrassed about the size of his warp core. Starfleet's finest?
And the one that causes me the most pain: Archer's handling of a threatening Klingon ship (Sleeping Dogs, I think, from a quick Google search?). Archer's had experience of Klingons before, and now a Klingon ship is bearing down on Enterprise. Archer has to communicate with them to avoid a fight. When this premiered, it had me sit up in my seat. Here was going to be Archer's first defining moment! Here's where he has the opportunity to demonstrate that he can swallow his pride in order to save lives and avoid conflict! Yes, I thought, it'll have parallels to Picard's act at the end of Menage a Troi, but it'll be worth it to demonstrate that Archer is a proper captain. Oh, and then T'Pol (I think!) quickly reminds him exactly how Klingons behave with regards to honor, in case he's forgotten.
So then what does he do? Uses logic to tell the Klingons that they're unlikely to win the battle. And does it all with an arrogant sneer and challenging tone. If the episode runtime had allowed a further five seconds for this scene, he would have surely bared his teeth and started beating his chest! Logic shouldn't have deterred the Klingons from a fight, and his ridiculous posturing should have provoked them further!
But the writers saved the day by just writing that the Klingons flew away. No further explanation. Well done, Archer. You did exactly the wrong thing, and won. Starfleet's finest?
All that being said, I used to think the Enterprise writers had done a terrible job. And specifically in the case of Archer, I thought it was ridiculous that someone could always say the wrong thing, and win. Consistently do the wrong thing, and win. Be incredibly stupid, make embarrassingly awful decisions, and win, despite logic, and despite common sense. I thought a leader like that was impossible. But given the real-world events of the past few years, maybe the Enterprise writers were a lot smarter than I gave them credit for..?
U.S. children going to grade school are trained mathematicians. That does not mean they are mathematicians or that they are not, to determine whether a specific child is one, I need to know what the training is.
But this is off topic we know from Enterprise that Archer is the Federation's finest above all. The federation does not exist without him. True this is the Federarion and not Starfleet. But, it was also said that this was because of his diplomatic skill. Him bringing together different alien races, who were antagonistic to each other, on the brink of war, or who would have gone to war except for his involvement.
Also Starfleet did not send Archer to be diplomatic with the Xindi's they sent him to destroy the weapon at whatever cost. So maybe, Archer is not Starflleet's finest because he ends up bringing peace. Peace among other alien races may not be Starfeet's agenda. Of course, be careful, Archer was doing as Starfleet commanded when he went in to attempt to destroy the weapon. Daniel's is a representative of the Federation, he is the one who urges him to seek a diplomatic solution or at least have someone else man the attempt to destroy the weapon.
Edit: I am not trying to defend the writing on Enterprise. Even episodes I did like the writing either that episode was still interesting to watch or lead to good episodes. The first two examples you picked the night in sickbay and the one on the comet are fairly poor episodes. They had different points they were making but they are not easy at all to watch the way they are written.
The one on the comet has Archer helping Tucker (the poop question). Tucker helping T'Pol (The arranged marriage) And, T'Pol getting Archer to ask for help from Vulcan ship. ( like really, had no other choice, he was going to have to do it anyhow)
Also, the Vulcan Captain says he is there to observe what Enterprise is doing. Late at a meal, I never have seen a Vulcan with a more expressionless face when talking in all the Star Trek that I have watched which does not include Discovery. We actually see what Shran described Vulcans as by this performance. My comment of it was I don't know if he is arrogant or being rude and I cannot even tell if he is lying or telling the truth. We already know he is their to observe Enterprise. When Archer demands to know why he is spying on him. He changes the definition of spying to one that says he is not spying. That was, if I were spying on you, you would not know I am spying on you. No, that is just the definition that fit his statement. Spying can also just mean observing.
BTW Vulcans are not the emotionless Vulcans until after the episode dealing with Surak. Sure they still seem more in control than humans. But, it is not until they start following Surak's own writing's done in his own had, curiously a hologram. I would say all indications are that Vulcan was more advanced technologically than humans were during U.S.'s Civil War. Yet here in U.S. we accept that we know exactly how Abraham Lincoln looked. Funny the argument for Enterprise's Surak is that Spock did not know what Surak looked like.
Edit: off topic again on Surak. Spock is after this Enterprise episode. Spock's version of Surak would be from a Vulcan having Surak's Kontra too.
Archer was also out there to figure this stuff out on his own. By the time the captains of the other shows were out there they had clear cut regulations and a prime directive. Archer was the one who “couldn’t be afraid of the wind”
U.S. children going to grade school are trained mathematicians. That does not mean they are mathematicians or that they are not, to determine whether a specific child is one, I need to know what the training is.
The Enterprise writers thought the training was important enough to reference. Therefore, in canon, it was enough training to be significant.
But this is off topic we know from Enterprise that Archer is the Federation's finest above all. The federation does not exist without him. True this is the Federarion and not Starfleet. But, it was also said that this was because of his diplomatic skill. Him bringing together different alien races, who were antagonistic to each other, on the brink of war, or who would have gone to war except for his involvement.
Also Starfleet did not send Archer to be diplomatic with the Xindi's they sent him to destroy the weapon at whatever cost. So maybe, Archer is not Starflleet's finest because he ends up bringing peace. Peace among other alien races may not be Starfeet's agenda. Of course, be careful, Archer was doing as Starfleet commanded when he went in to attempt to destroy the weapon. Daniel's is a representative of the Federation, he is the one who urges him to seek a diplomatic solution or at least have someone else man the attempt to destroy the weapon.
Edit: I am not trying to defend the writing on Enterprise. Even episodes I did like the writing either that episode was still interesting to watch or lead to good episodes. The first two examples you picked the night in sickbay and the one on the comet are fairly poor episodes. They had different points they were making but they are not easy at all to watch the way they are written.
The one on the comet has Archer helping Tucker (the poop question). Tucker helping T'Pol (The arranged marriage) And, T'Pol getting Archer to ask for help from Vulcan ship. ( like really, had no other choice, he was going to have to do it anyhow)
It was difficult to get through your comment with so much off-topic stuff! Trying to summarize your points, going through all of the "facts" you spent hours collating, it appears that your positive reasons for Archer being one of Starfleet's finest are:
1) "The federation does not exist without him. True this is the Federarion and not Starfleet. But, it was also said that this was because of his diplomatic skill." [offscreen]
2) "The one on the comet has Archer helping Tucker (the poop question)."
3) "T'Pol getting Archer to ask for help from Vulcan ship. ( like really, had no other choice, he was going to have to do it anyhow)"
We can cut "3", as it was T'Pol who saved the day. Of course Archer had another option. He'd already chosen another option. He was willing to let his crew die rather than ask for help. According to Dirk Gunderson, ByloBand and Banjo1012, this was because he was the first Starfleet captain exploring space. Apparently, it takes years of previous captains writing rules in order to know how to ask for help in order to save lives.
"2"... OK, fine. Archer helped Tucker with the "poop question". I'm absolutely willing to accept that (mostly because I don't remember the details). It must have been a very important "poop question" to make Archer one of Starfleet's finest, but I'll take your word for it. (By the way, if you're going to hand-wave anything bad about Archer because it was in a "poor episode", that leaves us with precious little material to work with for either side.)
"1" - well, here's the thing. And it's a thing that comes up a lot with Archer. Are you familiar with the "Informed Ability" trope? Archer is practically the poster child for this trope. You can see others in this thread have already commented on how amazing Archer was, because he started the entire Federation. That, and his being the first Starfleet captain out there, seem to be his two consistent get-out-of-jail-free cards used to hand-wave every time he was holding the idiot ball. Even common-sense stuff, like his frequent surprise and indignation at alien cultures not having exactly the same standards as Americans, apparently requires generations of previous captains and it's all fine because he later starts the Federation anyway.
It could be as Kaitee said. Maybe Archer would have developed into a great diplomat and non-tool through seasons five, six and seven. But we really don't have enough context on the founding of the Federation at this point - all we have is Riker's hologram. Based on what we've seen of Archer, if we'd had an episode around the Federation founding, it could well have included a Tellarite eating Porthos on the morning of the founding, and Archer then threatening to cancel the entire Federation in a childish tantrum until T'Pol coerces him into going and making his speech. Just like in the episodes we did see, things could well have turned out for the best despite Archer, and not because of Archer.
Still, if you happen to have any onscreen "facts" about how Archer was one of Starfleet's finest, I'm all ears - it's been a while since I've seen the show, and I'm open to the possibility that I've had the wrong impression all these years. Or was the "poop question" it? Despite a lot of teasing, that's the closest anyone's come to sharing a positive specific thing Archer did onscreen in this thread!
His decision to give the Andorians the scans of P’Jem. The decision to not interfere with the evolution of the Menk in Dear Doctor. His turning around to give the dead crew the respect they deserve iin the second episode. His protecting of Ambassador V’Lar when he had no reason to trust or honor Vulcans. His helping the wraiths on the rogue planet from being slaughtered by the hunters. The only decision I didn’t agree with was when he went ahead and put the ship in jeapordy to help his childhood friend rescue his son from transporter limbo. And when he believed Harrad-Sar. That was just stupid.
Banjo1012
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Still, I kinda see why Archer was there. There's a need to have something different in each captain. TOS: young white man. TNG: old white man. DS9: black man. Voyager: woman. Enterprise: tool.
Kinda fitting, given his engineering background.
Bad fit for the role? Absolutely (which is odd, because he was so very good on Quantum Leap). The rest? Nah.
He was a test pilot turned into a starship captain without anything even remotely approaching the training, support, and institutional knowledge that even Kirk’s era enjoyed and ended up having to learn things on his own.
His diplomatic accomplishments are actually pretty impressive. Archer was the key figure in finally bringing an end to two centuries of Vulcan/Andorian conflict, enjoyed a mostly positive series of first contacts with other species, and managed to befriend members of a belligerent species.
Rather than being arrogant, Archer seemed to me to be somewhat timid until later into the Xindi conflict. And even then, I would say “obsessed with completing his mission” long before “arrogant.”
Xenophobic? The guy who was pleased as punch to meet new species and learn about their customs? We’re discussing Archer, not Tucker. Tucker never really shook his paternalistic view of other species’ cultural norms even though some of them fascinated him...Archer may have had trouble getting along with people like the Mazarites and Kreetassans but he was no xenophobe. Maybe a little isolationist and regretful in the aftermath of the Xindi crisis, but not for long.
I also don’t know that “childish” is there right adjective. This goes back to a test pilot being handed the keys to a ship of diplomacy and exploration - the only quality that is needed for both jobs is the capacity to make quick decisions...everything else about commanding humanity’s flagship had to be learned on the fly, usually the hard way.
No, he was a "trained diplomat". That's literally how Phlox described Archer. He apparently did have diplomatic training.
Absolutely, those accomplishments were impressive. But we never saw him do anything that should have achieved them. We saw him whine and complain, we saw him ignore advice from those with more experience, we saw him pick fights and put his own pride ahead of the good of both his ship and Starfleet. And then the writers just wrote that he 'won the episode', resolved the conflict, saved the day or whatever, even though that didn't seem like it would have resulted from his words or actions.
There are many examples, but as it looks like you've forgotten most of "A Night in Sickbay", I'll suggest that would be a good episode for you to see. And after that, I don't think you'd claim that he deserves a place as one of "Starfleet's finest".
Actually... no, sorry, I don't recommend you rewatch it. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. To save you from that fate, I'll just say that you're completely right about everything.
Memory Alpha says it's Trip that called Archer a Trained diplomat.
If I am right I will have to watch this Trip reference again.
Frankly I did not care for the episode either. One I thought it was stupid for him to have Pothos as a pet on the Enterprise in the first place. But second, "A Night in Sickbay" This whole thing is about what happens to Porthos after Archer takes Porthos to the planet where Archer already is dealing with diplomatic problems.
I mean the whole premise for the episode most likely would never happen. First off if on their previous attempt at diplomatic relations it fails because of a natural habit being offensive to them. You would never take your pet to their planet.
To me if I am right and Trip's comment says the opposite, it shows inconsistency in the writing. Of course we know that exists already. But it will be another example.
Regarding Archer the character, just my point zero two cents' worth, but I think he did remarkably well. Lest we forget that for two seasons he was actively trying to explore while being held back by the Romulans Vulcans, using a ship that was not yet fully operational, and literally writing the manual for Earth deep space exploration. I think it is very easy to say he was a bad captain when compared to future examples who had a much more defined job description, in large part due to people like Archer who quite literally carved the path.
I'd also just like to add with regard to commanding the ship and why they placed the test pilot in charge, all I can say is that he was the one person in the space program (that we saw) who had the respect of the entire crew, and when considering whom to hand the keys to the first ever ship of its kind for a first of its kind mission with very loose ideas as to what the job ultimately entails, having the respect of the entire crew was probably the single most important factor in choosing a commander. It is easy to point to Picard for example, as by that point the position of captain had a reverence of its own, but with Enterprise that was probably much less prominent.
I'm going to stop thinking about Enterprise after posting this, as it does no good to dwell on painful memories, but just to share a couple more examples to help prove the pattern (again, off the top of my head, so please do correct any mistakes, no matter how irrelevant): Archer prepared to let his stranded shuttle crew die on a comet rather than asking a nearby Vulcan ship for help. T'Pol (I think!) practically had to trick him into saving the lives of his crew, just because Archer was childishly embarrassed about the size of his warp core. Starfleet's finest?
And the one that causes me the most pain: Archer's handling of a threatening Klingon ship (Sleeping Dogs, I think, from a quick Google search?). Archer's had experience of Klingons before, and now a Klingon ship is bearing down on Enterprise. Archer has to communicate with them to avoid a fight. When this premiered, it had me sit up in my seat. Here was going to be Archer's first defining moment! Here's where he has the opportunity to demonstrate that he can swallow his pride in order to save lives and avoid conflict! Yes, I thought, it'll have parallels to Picard's act at the end of Menage a Troi, but it'll be worth it to demonstrate that Archer is a proper captain. Oh, and then T'Pol (I think!) quickly reminds him exactly how Klingons behave with regards to honor, in case he's forgotten.
So then what does he do? Uses logic to tell the Klingons that they're unlikely to win the battle. And does it all with an arrogant sneer and challenging tone. If the episode runtime had allowed a further five seconds for this scene, he would have surely bared his teeth and started beating his chest! Logic shouldn't have deterred the Klingons from a fight, and his ridiculous posturing should have provoked them further!
But the writers saved the day by just writing that the Klingons flew away. No further explanation. Well done, Archer. You did exactly the wrong thing, and won. Starfleet's finest?
All that being said, I used to think the Enterprise writers had done a terrible job. And specifically in the case of Archer, I thought it was ridiculous that someone could always say the wrong thing, and win. Consistently do the wrong thing, and win. Be incredibly stupid, make embarrassingly awful decisions, and win, despite logic, and despite common sense. I thought a leader like that was impossible. But given the real-world events of the past few years, maybe the Enterprise writers were a lot smarter than I gave them credit for..?
TBH I'm not sure about Georgiou. Sure, she seemed a fine person, and was obviously well loved by her crew, but between just not getting very much of her, and some suggestions that maybe she had some blind spots... I dunno. Not that I'd ever not want Michelle Yeoh around, but all things being equal I'd drop her and add Anson Mount Pike. Which I guess means it's a 4* slot that's open, so put in COP Founder Archer and let's pretend those six years we didn't see were Awesome Archer, and that's why they chose him to deliver the speech.
Well, a) lately there have been some new Archers, b) let´s not forget about Professor Sato and her awesome DIP skill or c) some quite useful Phloxes etc.
But I know where you are coming from. Since this is your favourite series you are simply hungry for more
They added those as a courtesy cuz they realized how long it goes between Enterprise characters
No matter what as the number 1 fan of the series in this forum you are a little too touchy about certain things. Like in this case the name and content of a pack.
Treating the show as if it didn´t exist as you said is a lil over the top. Not the favourite series of the STT designers, yes, that for sure. And since it was the final nail in the Star Trek (television) coffin for a long time one can even understand it a little...
But it is also obvious that Enterprise receives from DB the most snubs and the least love of all the shows. It is nice that some of the crew gets occasional attention and good cards. It is also nice that Archer just got a new card. Enterprise still gets snubbed.
I also find it interesting that some of the people quickest to dismiss the claims against Enterprise are the first to complain when someone even hints that their favorite show may have negative bits.
The argument is strong enough. Also since I admitted that Enterprise is not the favourite series of the developers for sure. And that can have many reasons next to personal taste and the fact that you cannot please everyone equally in a franchise with so many different facettes.
One could be that it was the franchise killer for a long time. Another could simply be lack of sales for Enterprise cards in STT (something we as players don´t know). Isolated voices furthermore have no impact on the development of stuff for this game. Many voices do.
Yes certainly in the past but Enterprise has been in many events recently. Like I said the last event and the next event. You buy far more of these packs than I do. You are the target demographic. So to help DB, is there any Archers that you do not have fully starred or would want another copy of that DB could offer you and that you would buy? Mostly I think it is the whales buying these non event packs so what Archer would you or others buy?
I have never bought a Tuesday pack in my life so it wouldn’t help me there. I would be way more inclined to if it was the new legendary Plus two super rares, like event packs. Or if they gave us an offer of say $25 for 5 pulls again like event packs. As it stands, with two other legendaries in there I don’t want, there is a 3.3% chance of getting the new one. That’s a suckers bet. I do like the reward structure with the legendary being the next event crew. That way if I win, say three from the event, I know I can buy the $50 offer the next week. If I don’t get another copy through the pulls I can DYC and boom. 5 copies.
I agree! I bet we could come up with a dozen or more awesome Enterprise crew cards! I am still holding out hope for Trellium-D T'Pol.
I love Enterprise, I get choked up every time I watch that show with just how much pride that entire crew had for their ship/mission, because they knew how important it was.
U.S. children going to grade school are trained mathematicians. That does not mean they are mathematicians or that they are not, to determine whether a specific child is one, I need to know what the training is.
But this is off topic we know from Enterprise that Archer is the Federation's finest above all. The federation does not exist without him. True this is the Federarion and not Starfleet. But, it was also said that this was because of his diplomatic skill. Him bringing together different alien races, who were antagonistic to each other, on the brink of war, or who would have gone to war except for his involvement.
Also Starfleet did not send Archer to be diplomatic with the Xindi's they sent him to destroy the weapon at whatever cost. So maybe, Archer is not Starflleet's finest because he ends up bringing peace. Peace among other alien races may not be Starfeet's agenda. Of course, be careful, Archer was doing as Starfleet commanded when he went in to attempt to destroy the weapon. Daniel's is a representative of the Federation, he is the one who urges him to seek a diplomatic solution or at least have someone else man the attempt to destroy the weapon.
Edit: I am not trying to defend the writing on Enterprise. Even episodes I did like the writing either that episode was still interesting to watch or lead to good episodes. The first two examples you picked the night in sickbay and the one on the comet are fairly poor episodes. They had different points they were making but they are not easy at all to watch the way they are written.
The one on the comet has Archer helping Tucker (the poop question). Tucker helping T'Pol (The arranged marriage) And, T'Pol getting Archer to ask for help from Vulcan ship. ( like really, had no other choice, he was going to have to do it anyhow)
Also, the Vulcan Captain says he is there to observe what Enterprise is doing. Late at a meal, I never have seen a Vulcan with a more expressionless face when talking in all the Star Trek that I have watched which does not include Discovery. We actually see what Shran described Vulcans as by this performance. My comment of it was I don't know if he is arrogant or being rude and I cannot even tell if he is lying or telling the truth. We already know he is their to observe Enterprise. When Archer demands to know why he is spying on him. He changes the definition of spying to one that says he is not spying. That was, if I were spying on you, you would not know I am spying on you. No, that is just the definition that fit his statement. Spying can also just mean observing.
BTW Vulcans are not the emotionless Vulcans until after the episode dealing with Surak. Sure they still seem more in control than humans. But, it is not until they start following Surak's own writing's done in his own had, curiously a hologram. I would say all indications are that Vulcan was more advanced technologically than humans were during U.S.'s Civil War. Yet here in U.S. we accept that we know exactly how Abraham Lincoln looked. Funny the argument for Enterprise's Surak is that Spock did not know what Surak looked like.
Edit: off topic again on Surak. Spock is after this Enterprise episode. Spock's version of Surak would be from a Vulcan having Surak's Kontra too.
It was difficult to get through your comment with so much off-topic stuff! Trying to summarize your points, going through all of the "facts" you spent hours collating, it appears that your positive reasons for Archer being one of Starfleet's finest are:
1) "The federation does not exist without him. True this is the Federarion and not Starfleet. But, it was also said that this was because of his diplomatic skill." [offscreen]
2) "The one on the comet has Archer helping Tucker (the poop question)."
3) "T'Pol getting Archer to ask for help from Vulcan ship. ( like really, had no other choice, he was going to have to do it anyhow)"
We can cut "3", as it was T'Pol who saved the day. Of course Archer had another option. He'd already chosen another option. He was willing to let his crew die rather than ask for help. According to Dirk Gunderson, ByloBand and Banjo1012, this was because he was the first Starfleet captain exploring space. Apparently, it takes years of previous captains writing rules in order to know how to ask for help in order to save lives.
"2"... OK, fine. Archer helped Tucker with the "poop question". I'm absolutely willing to accept that (mostly because I don't remember the details). It must have been a very important "poop question" to make Archer one of Starfleet's finest, but I'll take your word for it. (By the way, if you're going to hand-wave anything bad about Archer because it was in a "poor episode", that leaves us with precious little material to work with for either side.)
"1" - well, here's the thing. And it's a thing that comes up a lot with Archer. Are you familiar with the "Informed Ability" trope? Archer is practically the poster child for this trope. You can see others in this thread have already commented on how amazing Archer was, because he started the entire Federation. That, and his being the first Starfleet captain out there, seem to be his two consistent get-out-of-jail-free cards used to hand-wave every time he was holding the idiot ball. Even common-sense stuff, like his frequent surprise and indignation at alien cultures not having exactly the same standards as Americans, apparently requires generations of previous captains and it's all fine because he later starts the Federation anyway.
It could be as Kaitee said. Maybe Archer would have developed into a great diplomat and non-tool through seasons five, six and seven. But we really don't have enough context on the founding of the Federation at this point - all we have is Riker's hologram. Based on what we've seen of Archer, if we'd had an episode around the Federation founding, it could well have included a Tellarite eating Porthos on the morning of the founding, and Archer then threatening to cancel the entire Federation in a childish tantrum until T'Pol coerces him into going and making his speech. Just like in the episodes we did see, things could well have turned out for the best despite Archer, and not because of Archer.
Still, if you happen to have any onscreen "facts" about how Archer was one of Starfleet's finest, I'm all ears - it's been a while since I've seen the show, and I'm open to the possibility that I've had the wrong impression all these years. Or was the "poop question" it? Despite a lot of teasing, that's the closest anyone's come to sharing a positive specific thing Archer did onscreen in this thread!