Is this the end of Loot Boxes in Usa/Europe?

[BL] Q

"The mixing of money and addiction is gambling," the Gaming Commission declared. Belgium's Minister of Justice Koen Geens also weighed in, saying, "Mixing gambling and gaming, especially at a young age, is dangerous for the mental health of the child." Star Trek Timelines is Pegi12

Geens, according to the report, wants to ban in-game purchases outright (correction: if you don't know exactly what you're purchasing), and not just in Belgium: He said the process will take time, "because we have to go to Europe. We will certainly try to ban it."

What direction will the game industry take following this ruling will it spill over from Console gaming to mobile gaming, what are the ramifications?

I like coming here to the forum to see a different take people may have on various issues and topics within the game. Is this a welcome regulation or does mean an end to game format most of us enjoy?

Mordack

In terms of political reality, Belgium won't ever be able to get that through the rest of the EU.

[BL] Q

Mordack wrote: »

In terms of political reality, Belgium won't ever be able to get that through the rest of the EU.

If the Netherlands and Germany agree its gambling it will gain traction in The EU

weatherseed

Hopefully they take on the ridiculous DLCs that have been getting worse and worse ever since Sims 2 reared its ugly head.

Mordack

[BL] Q wrote: »

Mordack wrote: »

In terms of political reality, Belgium won't ever be able to get that through the rest of the EU.

If the Netherlands and Germany agree its gambling it will gain traction in The EU

It might gain traction as a concept, but actual lawmaking into the EU moves at a Glacial Pace. The Council won't support it: they're head over heels in love with the idea of companies which profit, and pay tax, but have no fixed assets. It's how places like Luxembourg function.

Even if hypothetically, the Council did decide to legislate, it'd take them a few years to write anything up, a few more years for the parliament to agree to it and then twice as long after that for all the heads of government to agree. Even if this idea does gain traction, the next 5-7 years of Timelines (which frankly is longer than I expect it to last) will continue under the current system.

Mordack

Anyway, sorry, I didn't mean to derail your discussion. If this became the law throughout the world, it would obviously be great for us players, but how would DB's business model for Timelines continue?

Mordack

I worry they'd just shut it down, and whilst they do annoy me a lot I'd still prefer to have the game and be exploited than just not have it at all. I suppose that makes me part of the problem. Stockholm syndrome. I worked hard to get my 4 5/5s though.

[RO]BitterDevil

there are always options and workarounds...maybe some that could be beneficial to players and still gather profit for DB, but since this is the easiest way, they won't try anything else.

And I really think that this is a good idea. I don't care what DB says, this game is a gambling game.

[BL] Q

Mordack wrote: »

I worry they'd just shut it down, and whilst they do annoy me a lot I'd still prefer to have the game and be exploited than just not have it at all. I suppose that makes me part of the problem. Stockholm syndrome. I worked hard to get my 4 5/5s though.

I'd have as much to lose as the next person on losing 5/5's. The legal loophole is if you purchase RNG packs with real cash it's a form of gambling but it's not illegal to buy ingame currency and use said currency to purchase packs.

People can argue that you always get something and it's not gambling this topic has been around for along time it's only since EA got their hand slapped on Reddit it's now being looked at possibly by politicans to piggy back off but the point really is that you are always gambling your money on what exactly you will get. It's risk/reward. The risk being your money, the reward being what you actually want to gain out of it. That (risk/reward) is a key element of a definition of gambling.

People have also raised questions about panini/pokemon cards in the past not being gambling as you get a certain amount of cards per pack although you can or used to be able to trade those at swap meets to get the ones you wanted. Some games have a digital market place for this in house but charge using in game currency to do so.

@Mordack i welcome your opinion I don't think your derailing the thread your insights are welcome

[BL] Q

A member of the United Kingdom’s parliament has opened an inquiry into the loot-box model of microtransactions in console games, on behalf of a constituent who asked him about the legality of the practice.

Daniel Zeichner, a Labour MP from Cambridge, posed two questions to Karen Bradley, the U.K.’s secretary of state for digital, culture, media and sport. Zeichner asked what steps she will take “to protect vulnerable adults and children from illegal gambling, in-game gambling and loot boxes within computer games.”

This is taken from this article here
https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.polygon.com/platform/amp/2017/10/15/16478458/loot-box-microtransactions-legality-uk

So far Belgium and the U.K. Are looking into the possibility of regulation

Captain_Who

Actually, they get around similar laws in the US by selling premium in game currency (Dilithium), breaking the "direct chain" from money to game items.

Premium currency also supports the disconnect from the p(l)ayer and his spending to the cost of items and increasing addictive behavior.

Anyways, while I agree with the article, and games like this are entirely premised upon hooking whales (literally in addiction), I don't expect anything would ever come of it. The sad fact of the matter is money talks and politicians will easily be bought to prevent any such laws from passing. Even if somehow you could get the law to pass, the time it would take to get there and take effect would be obscene.

Dr. Anomaly

This game harpoons whales, not hooks them.

Mordack

[BL] Q wrote: »

A member of the United Kingdom’s parliament has opened an inquiry into the loot-box model of microtransactions in console games, on behalf of a constituent who asked him about the legality of the practice.

Daniel Zeichner, a Labour MP from Cambridge, posed two questions to Karen Bradley, the U.K.’s secretary of state for digital, culture, media and sport. Zeichner asked what steps she will take “to protect vulnerable adults and children from illegal gambling, in-game gambling and loot boxes within computer games.”

This is taken from this article here
https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.polygon.com/platform/amp/2017/10/15/16478458/loot-box-microtransactions-legality-uk

So far Belgium and the U.K. Are looking into the possibility of regulation

He's nobody. He's a random backbench opposition MP who is probably doing his best to represent his constituency (he represents a university town, so it's not beyond the realms of possibility that a few students who like games have e-mailed him about this) so he got his intern to write him a question. In the UK parliamentary system, questions mean nothing. You can ask as many as you want when you are, as he is, in opposition.

In any case, the UK is going to leave the EU at some point, Possibly. Maybe. Definitely(?). The UK can't force this sort of thing through on their own, and if they try to they might realise quite how isolated Brexit has made them.

[BL] Q

*This might be incorrect but as I understand it games with loot boxes that offer random loot are not gambling because you don't actually own the things you get out of them, they are still property of the game developer.

*Comment from Reddit which raises a valid point if correct

[BL] Q

Last December, China’s Ministry of Culture released a new set of rules governing online games in the country, including a regulation that requires developers of video games that feature random loot boxes to reveal the odds of players receiving items. That rule, which officially took effect on March 1st, has led to multiple big-name companies revealing the drop rates for rare items in their loot boxes, many of them for the first time.

Source: https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.theverge.com/platform/amp/2017/5/2/15517962/china-new-law-dota-league-of-legends-odds-loot-box-random

The reason I raise the published odds from loot boxes due to legislation is china is because I wanted to raise the question is this the likely outcome that European states will adopt in lieu of banning loot boxes entirely?

Mordack

[BL] Q wrote: »

*This might be incorrect but as I understand it games with loot boxes that offer random loot are not gambling because you don't actually own the things you get out of them, they are still property of the game developer.

*Comment from Reddit which raises a valid point if correct

That's technically true, but when push comes to shove loot boxes are like tax evasion. They'd require a remarkable, hitherto unheard level of, global consensus to combat, If XX country said 'LOOT BOXES ARE BANNED' then all the companies would just avoid that country and go to YY country. Then, even if YY country said 'OK WE ARE BANNING THEM TOO' they'd find a 'zzz' country to route through. It'd just be so hard to police: just as tax evasion is.

Ikrit

Someone above raised the point of Pokemon cards, and I think that is the argument that gaming companies will make. Collectible card systems like baseball cards and card games such as Pokemon, Yugioh, or Magic require buying packs of cards that are randomized. In such games, in order to have stronger decks, you must buy more cards, hoping that the cards you receive will benefit you. When I played Magic, we would sometimes immediately sell cards we pulled from a pack, which you could definitely argue is gambling.

This is also not exactly a loot box system. I think it falls more under the "gacha" system. With loot boxes, you are mostly receiving weapons, armor, skins, etc. These are things that either enhance your character or change their appearance. In STT, we get actual characters that have no direct effect on the other characters we own (getting Honey Bare Jadzia doesn't change your 1* Lt. Jadzia). I play Fire Emblem Heroes, and both games work the same in this respect (just different ways of doing it). In FEH, you use premium currency to get characters, with a chance to get 5* characters on every pull.

I would like for DB to post the chances of getting a 5* from a pack is. And to those who say it would kill their profit: FEH has their rates up and people still spend money when it is a 3% chance to pull a certain character (or when 2 other characters compete for that 3%, so it becomes 1%). Again, different system, but I think it could still work, especially if the odds are really 10% for event packs as we believe they are.

[BL] Q

Ikrit wrote: »

Someone above raised the point of Pokemon cards, and I think that is the argument that gaming companies will make. Collectible card systems like baseball cards and card games such as Pokemon, Yugioh, or Magic require buying packs of cards that are randomized. In such games, in order to have stronger decks, you must buy more cards, hoping that the cards you receive will benefit you. When I played Magic, we would sometimes immediately sell cards we pulled from a pack, which you could definitely argue is gambling.

This is also not exactly a loot box system. I think it falls more under the "gacha" system. With loot boxes, you are mostly receiving weapons, armor, skins, etc. These are things that either enhance your character or change their appearance. In STT, we get actual characters that have no direct effect on the other characters we own (getting Honey Bare Jadzia doesn't change your 1* Lt. Jadzia). I play Fire Emblem Heroes, and both games work the same in this respect (just different ways of doing it). In FEH, you use premium currency to get characters, with a chance to get 5* characters on every pull.

I would like for DB to post the chances of getting a 5* from a pack is. And to those who say it would kill their profit: FEH has their rates up and people still spend money when it is a 3% chance to pull a certain character (or when 2 other characters compete for that 3%, so it becomes 1%). Again, different system, but I think it could still work, especially if the odds are really 10% for event packs as we believe they are.

The difference between Pokemon card collection versus digital content you do not own the rights to the Toons on digital format. The difference between the two for comparison is summed up in 3 images

[BL] Q

"Consumers are also protected by the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008. This includes a requirement on businesses not to subject anyone to misleading or aggressive marketing practices, or, for example, direct exhortation to buy products, such as games content, including in-game purchases such as loot boxes. The government is committed to ensuring that consumers are properly protected and that children’s vulnerability and inexperience is not exploited by aggressive commercial practices."

Misleading offers never 🤔

[BL] Q

The Pokemon/panini card comparison to lootboxes has been around a very long time.

Once the servers shuts down on a game (which has happened to me previously in a Gree game) your left with nothing no cards and no gameplay you could still buy packs up to 30days before they pulled the plug versus rare cards you own from those Pokemon packs going up in value or what it's worth for someone to complete their collection on auction sites like EBay.

It'll be interesting to follow how it all pans out if the gaming commission does a Uturn on its previous assessment from public pressure.

[BL] Q

Australia is also looking into whether lootboxes are gambling

*My name is Jarrod Wolfe and I am the Strategic Analyst for the Compliance Division at VCGLR. I have received your correspondence in regards to gambling functionality (loot boxes) being incorporated into games.

Your research and suppositions on the matter are correct; what occurs with "loot boxes" does constitute gambling by the definition of the Victorian Legislation. Unfortunately where the complexity arises is in jurisdiction and our powers to investigate.

Legislation has not moved as quick as the technology; at both State and Federal level we are not necessarily equipped to determine the legality of these practices in lieu of the fact the entities responsible are overseas.

Source: https://www.kotaku.com.au/2017/11/victorias-gambling-regulator-loot-boxes-constitute-gambling/

Banjo1012

Funny I was just telling a friend I really wanted that Armed Georgiou but I’m not going to buy packs to get her cuz I’m tired of playing roulette with this game. It is absolutely gambling. I would also think that a random number generator determining an outcome also certainly implies gambling

Jim Raynor

Knowing political processes in the EU, I think that the chances are high that this will end up as actual law. It will most likely take 1-2 years to become effective, but since they are playing the "we have to protect children"-card, the chances are very high that this will end up in some sort of legislation.

I doubt that we are going to see real bans but it could end up the "chinese way" with disclosed odds.

It's stil unclear if they want to ban any sort of RNG packs, so that the only thing you are allowed to buy is certain crew.

[BL] Q

Jim Raynor wrote: »

Knowing political processes in the EU, I think that the chances are high that this will end up as actual law. It will most likely take 1-2 years to become effective, but since they are playing the "we have to protect children"-card, the chances are very high that this will end up in some sort of legislation.

I doubt that we are going to see real bans but it could end up the "chinese way" with disclosed odds.

It's stil unclear if they want to ban any sort of RNG packs, so that the only thing you are allowed to buy is certain crew.

Even with disclosed odds it's still gambling anyone under 18 I thought wasn't allowed gamble yet the game industry has simulated gambling from pegi 12

[BL] Q

Even the App Store rates this game as simulated gambling and it's pegi rating is 12 it was Pegi 7 at launch





The point of this thread by the way isn't a dig at DB.

Any issues that have arisen in this game have been dealt with efficiently in my personal experience and I've been playing games with micro transactions since the IPhone 1 and have to say the CS in this game is probably one of the best and fairest compared to other game companies.

This thread is just highlighting what different governments are trying to get into legislation in Europe and where the Game industry goes from here. I bet every game company is giving EA the stink eye right now.

Jim Raynor

[BL] Q wrote: »

Jim Raynor wrote: »

Knowing political processes in the EU, I think that the chances are high that this will end up as actual law. It will most likely take 1-2 years to become effective, but since they are playing the "we have to protect children"-card, the chances are very high that this will end up in some sort of legislation.

I doubt that we are going to see real bans but it could end up the "chinese way" with disclosed odds.

It's stil unclear if they want to ban any sort of RNG packs, so that the only thing you are allowed to buy is certain crew.

Even with disclosed odds it's still gambling anyone under 18 I thought wasn't allowed gamble yet the game industry has simulated gambling from pegi 12

At least in Germany the current legal definition of gambling is that you have to be able to win money/play for money. That's why virtual goods can't fulfil the definition of gambling (yet), they are no real money nor are they worth any real money.

At this point it's unclear if Germany/other countries agree to expand the legal definition of gambling to virtual goods. A possible compromise could be to just disclose the odds or other regulations instead of making it only available to adults (In Germany the legal age would be 18). But it also could end up this way, but I think it's more unlikely.


Here is an explanation about the legal situation in Germany from a lawyer. It's German though, maybe Google Translate can help out: http://www.gamestar.de/artikel/lootboxen-als-gluecksspiel-das-sagt-der-anwalt,3321951.html

(OPA) Major Herps

This is great news and a step in the right direction. Big publishers such as EA are taking the p*ss with loot boxes for AAA games, holding off content for DLC packs etc so they can charge more.

Loot boxes are simulated gambling and still have the same effect on the brain as real world gambling. Games with them should be rated 18+.

[RotP] Scoustar

I doubt anything will happen. I hope I'm wrong.

Companies who operate in the mysterious realms of the internet are not held to any real standards. They effectively allow 12 year-old children to gamble. They insult and mislead people without recourse. They maintain the rights to anything you "buy".

It's a dirty business, so I for one support the ideal behind putting any kind of legislation in place to temper these organisations.

AviTrek

Given how little DB cares about European players as is, I'd expect DB to remove the game from European app stores before modifying anything.

Nero84

The issue I have is what is the difference between a "Loot Crate" and lets say a pack of cards you buy at a gaming shop? The card pack normally costs $3.00 and promises 1 rare. There is no promise that if you open 10 packs you will get the pack you want or you won't get duplicates.

I think there should be more disclosure on the percentages given, but DB promises a Super Rare if you buy a 10 pack and that is what they are required to give you at minimum.

The biggest issue with the Loot Crates in a lot of games is that they don't guarantee anything and it is impossible to tell how valuable they really can be. IGN did a wonderful video showing how little they got for spending $100.00 in Star Wars Battlefront 2. That to me is a big issue and there should be some guarantees built in or it is simply gambling.

Pallidyne

Nero84 wrote: »

The issue I have is what is the difference between a "Loot Crate" and lets say a pack of cards you buy at a gaming shop? The card pack normally costs $3.00 and promises 1 rare. There is no promise that if you open 10 packs you will get the pack you want or you won't get duplicates.

I think there should be more disclosure on the percentages given, but DB promises a Super Rare if you buy a 10 pack and that is what they are required to give you at minimum.

The biggest issue with the Loot Crates in a lot of games is that they don't guarantee anything and it is impossible to tell how valuable they really can be. IGN did a wonderful video showing how little they got for spending $100.00 in Star Wars Battlefront 2. That to me is a big issue and there should be some guarantees built in or it is simply gambling.

I went to a local Target store and looked at the packs of cards. Even Topps sports cards with 'rare' inserts are listing the odds of getting said items on their pack wrappers. DB does do well in telling you the odds of the purple, so kudos to them. They do not do so for other item types, such as schematics, golds, etc.

So they are better than some but not where they need to be.