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To All You Discovery Haters Out There...
GreenStuff
✭✭
I'm reading some comments on the forum and I don't understand why some of you just auto-delete DSC crew out of hand just because you either a) don't like the series, or b) haven't watched it yet. For me (and I'm almost old enough to remember TOS) Discovery is my second fave series - the writing, acting and STORY is potentially the best there has been in the whole ST universe. Sonequa Martin-Green is incredible, Jason Isaacs lends proper gravitas, and pretty much overall the acting is wayyy better than any of the previous series. If you haven't seen it yet, I would encourage you to do so; those characters have real depth.
For the record I should say my favourite series is TNG for pretty much, except for a few mis-steps, the same reasons. In comparison, and I know it's how it all started, TOS seems, well, *basic* (I fully understand the game-changer that was the Kirk-Uhura kiss and realise the wider importance of the show generally, but some of the acting and story was just wooden, it really was).
For game purposes some of the DSC crew are the best (see Culber for MED as an example) of the bunch and the game includes all characters from all series - which is what Roddenberry would have liked; all inclusive/equal/welcome regardless of origin, right? I will refrain from making any real-world political comment at this stage.
My least favourite personally is Enterprise but some of those cards are useful in the game, so I keep those to use and it would be silly to delete the cards because I don't like the series. So why do some of you just automatically delete DSC characters? It can only harm you in terms of gameplay, and I can only suggest that whatever your motives, that act of deleting is therefore ......... illogical.
For the record I should say my favourite series is TNG for pretty much, except for a few mis-steps, the same reasons. In comparison, and I know it's how it all started, TOS seems, well, *basic* (I fully understand the game-changer that was the Kirk-Uhura kiss and realise the wider importance of the show generally, but some of the acting and story was just wooden, it really was).
For game purposes some of the DSC crew are the best (see Culber for MED as an example) of the bunch and the game includes all characters from all series - which is what Roddenberry would have liked; all inclusive/equal/welcome regardless of origin, right? I will refrain from making any real-world political comment at this stage.
My least favourite personally is Enterprise but some of those cards are useful in the game, so I keep those to use and it would be silly to delete the cards because I don't like the series. So why do some of you just automatically delete DSC characters? It can only harm you in terms of gameplay, and I can only suggest that whatever your motives, that act of deleting is therefore ......... illogical.
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1 - Imagine if we started DS9 right in the middle of the Dominion War. People would get a different impression of what a Star Trek show would be like. Instead DS9 started with a fresh new Captain using baseball to explain linear time to aliens who don't understand the concept. That's a little more Trek.
2 - I like Michael Burnham's story. SMG might not be the best actor to tell that story. Honestly, I find her to be the least compelling actor in the DSC cast. I expect better from the series lead. She has had some good moments though and may grow into the role later.
3 - Art direction is not mastering its domain. DSC in some ways looks like what a futuristic ship should be. And then they went overboard. The new look Klingons being the most egregious example.
I don't airlock everything DSC. Some of the crew are very good although I wish I didn't grab Lorca. He's not bad at 1/5 but I already have plenty of CSD crew. I ended up skipping Tilly and Mudd because I didn't want more 1/5 2 Skill characters. Most of the DSC crew live in the vault. Tactical Burnham is the easily the best out of the lot.
DSC is more cinematic, that's maybe what I like best.
In contrast, $99 a year gets me access to every episode of TOS, TNG, DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise. Plus, they throw in free shipping on stuff I order from Amazon.
If I lived outside the US and could therefore get Discovery as part of Netflix I would probably do that. But CBS has decided that people in the US have to pay for All Access to see Discovery, and All Access doesn't have enough content to justify the price.
I feel this was a very stupid decision by CBS, and if airlocking all Discovery characters would cost them money, I'd be doing that.
But it won't, so I don't.
Let's be honest... Fuller and Meyer both left before the show hit the air. I see that as rather telling.
Slowly, I began to think that there was some potential buried in there for a good show, if they didn't mess it up. And by the end of the first half-season, I was feeling quite hopeful about the show. When the 2nd half of the season returned this year, I found myself convinced that this would be a very solid addition to the franchise.
It's divisive, though. I completely get that. DS9 was also divisive when it started... and yes, you can make comparisons to how that show was divisive in a different way, but that is nitpicking, I think. What's not nitpicking is to admit that DSC started off stumbling, to say the least. Anyone who checked out those first two or three episodes then stopped likely feels they wasted their time. I don't blame anyone for having that viewpoint, as I was of that mindset myself. It was only after sticking with it that I was able to see things come together. Lots of shows have really shaky starts, only to become well-loved by many. I don't know where the show is headed, or if they can manage to keep up the current quality standard they've set recently, but I am now at least optimistic about its future, and its addition to the franchise.
Could you please continue the petty bickering? I find it most intriguing.
~ Data, ST:TNG "Haven"
I am one of those people that airlock every Discovery character, so I'll try to answer your questions from my perspective the best I can.
I'll deal first with your second and third paragraphs because that will be the shortest. I don't keep crew I don't like just for game purposes. The whole fun of the game is having a roster of characters I like. So just like I airlock Seska every time I see her, so too will I airlock every Discovery character (I might make an exception for Lorca if I ever got him because I do like him, but I haven't gotten him yet, so that's a quandry I have yet to face). EDIT: I forgot that I already have made one exception for an awesome character: First Officer Saru.
Now to get to why I don't like Discovery as a series. For background, I'm a Niner. I love DS9 and I dislike TOS. The other three series are pretty good and I enjoy them. I really, really wanted to like Discovery and I watched the first six episodes before throwing my hands up in despair and deciding I could take no more.
1) You and I have some very differing opinions on the acting abilities of Sonequa Martin-Green. I am of the opinion she is easily the worst actor ever placed in a main cast role in Star Trek (with the exception of William Shatner, but Shatner was one of those 'it's so bad it's good' cases).
2) Klingons. Those are not Klingons. They do not resemble Klingons in any meaningful way. They don't look like them, they don't act like them, they have no honour whatsoever. Now I've been told by others that are fans of TOS that they're not all that different from TOS Klingons. I don't know if that's true because I haven't seen all of TOS because I don't like it, but they have no resemblance whatsoever to Klingons in DS9, VOY, TNG or ENT. Those Klingons had a warrior culture and acted predictably in the pursuit of honour. When they acted dishonourably they were challenged. They didn't go around torturing prisoners for kicks.
3) The story of Discovery is ok. I like the serialized format, I would even say I like the plot. The problem is it doesn't fit in with the rest of the Star Trek universe. If there was a massive war between the Federation and Klingons just a few years before TOS don't you think we would have heard about it before now? The writers said they'll figure out why we haven't heard of the spore drive before and I'll trust them on that, but I can't get over the war and its timing, and I really, really can't get over the Klingons. The Klingons are by far the single biggest reason I can't watch that show anymore. I was willing to overlook a lot after the pilot episodes. I liked the idea of a religious fanatic gaining a cult following and doing some interesting things, that was a cool idea and it would have been totally believable from what we know about Klingons, they are a spiritual people. Even then though I was having a very hard time getting over the unexplained physical differences of the Klingons, but I was cutting it a lot of slack, thinking they might explain that soon. After the pilot though, things just got worse and worse for trying to fit this storyline into the established Trek universe.
If this was in an alternate universe, then I could see it, but really this is just a brand new show that has a cool story, that just has the Star Trek label slapped onto it for ratings. If this was a new show, not connected to Star Trek in any way, I would probably like it (but probably only if they cut Burnham out, or at least cast another actor as Burnham, but preferably cut that character out altogether). But they called it Star Trek, they called the villains Klingons, and it doesn't work.
You sure you're not talking about Shatner? I mean he's notorious for his overacting on every single word even to the point of there being SNL skits about it. (RIP John Belushi)
I find your remarks a hard sell starting from that point
If I got rid of all the ones I didn't like I'd do a lot poorly in a lot of other events. I don't like Enterprise either. And I'm weird, I liked TAS. I cheered Arex.
I'm not gonna begrudge someone liking Disco or getting the characters. I'm hoping DB keeps up with the classic characters as well. (With lots of Sisko, I know to your chagrin)
I'm glad you like it. Enjoy it. Revel in it.
Frankly other than here and re-runs I'm done with the franchise. The things that brought me in, like the morality plays, just don't appear to be there anymore, and other than Saru, I wouldn't shed a single tear if every single character ended up on a Klingon dinner table. I can't even say that about Enterprise, as I liked Phlox and Porthos and almost reached ambivalence with Trip. I feel no connection other than the graphics between old Trek and this.
It's great action and suspense and twists coming out of nowhere. But I get that with characters I actually give a care about with shows like Luke Cage and others. And well, twists that have more than a 'holy shazam I can' t believe they did that' quality. (most character deaths in the eps I saw gave me only that emotion.) Agents of Shield vs the Kree right now is giving that. Even Dirk Gently did that.
If my whole life revolved around getting new Trek, then maybe I'd give it some more time. But as I have a toddler which limits my viewing time, I've got better things to watch.
(And yes I've been watching since TOS and muscled through Enterprise just to prove my loyalty.)
Actually, he's not. Shatner was an incredibly talented and very subtle actor (watch his work in TOS S1) that didn't really start hamming it up until S3 and, according to Nimoy, it was because he'd lost interest once it became clear they were done.
The myth of Shatner overacting was largely created by comedians looking for something easy to riff on. Couple that with the fact that he's a theatre actor that transitioned to TV and it's easy to see why people get it wrong.
Sorry but S2 and S3 he's over the top more than not. Yes he's a subtle actor in other venues especially Boston Legal, but damn Command Wrap Kirk not overacting is like Janeway not sounding like Hepburn.
Brick Mutant Cannibal Klingons
Subtitles, Holograms, Holodeck
a war without any decent large space battle. and/or not large enough so far ...
dystopian visual and storytelling (trek's success and rewatchability value is in it's utopian sagas)
no mirror opening sequence
they put Andorians and Tellarites on the rebel council, can live with the visual changes but they should have some script ...
the story about how the war began was unsatisfying. the Vulcan-Hello would have been every captain's choice
I hereby present this gif with the following setup: Shatner has just been told he overacts on occasion, an accusation which he at first brushes off... but then he turns to Nimoy with a "Do I?" look, and...
Haha, couldn't resist. Shatner does have hammy moments, for sure, but as Nimoy has pointed out, his energy allowed Spock to be more reserved, whereas Jeffrey Hunter (Captain Pike) had a more restrained acting style which forced Nimoy to counter that by playing Spock much bigger. So, the greatness of Spock's reactions and interactions with Kirk and Bones is, to a large extent, due to Shatner's theatricality, if you will. (Not that theatricality necessarily translates to hamminess, mind you.)
On a side tangent, I was just thinking the other day about the acting talents of the TOS cast, and although Nimoy is fantastic, I would probably give highest honors in that regard to DeForest Kelley. De had by far the biggest acting resume of all the cast by the time he joined Trek, and did some really top-notch work in that time. But I just think he brought a great presence to the role of Bones, and was in my opinion integral to the show's lasting legacy. (Another side note: I just learned recently that Roddenberry had considered De for the role of Spock. Very interesting to imagine what that would've been like!)
Could you please continue the petty bickering? I find it most intriguing.
~ Data, ST:TNG "Haven"
The only proper response. "Indeed."
To clarify, I think you do not like how much you would need to pay to be able to watch the show during its original airing ... to the best of my knowledge, for any/every show being newly created these days, you have to one way or another pay something, don't you?
Again with the picking apart of every last tiny detail. The dude doesn’t like a $10 subscription charge to watch one show a week. Let it be
Now, well, I don't hate that. I'm grateful because... well, see my post above.
Why?
This is a game and it's supposed to be fun. If there's something about it that isn't fun, I don't engage with that aspect. With characters, that often means airlocking them if I don't like them because I just don't want to have to look at them all the time; they remind me of something I hate rather than something I like. To spend time (and potentially money) engaging with things you don't like is illogical.
I don't hate Discovery, nor do I airlock characters just because they're from Discovery. But I do airlock most non-canon characters and characters from Enterprise, because I dislike them and have no interest in collecting them.
Talking of Discovery, I want to like it, but so far, I can't.
So much focus on just the one character is fundamentally boring.
They really don't though. Burnham is the only one who that might be true of. We still know relatively little about anyone else.
Lorca has some vague trauma he's trying to recover from
Saru is scared all the time
Tyler is obviously a
Stamets... What can I say here? He's been catatonic or high for almost the entire time, we know almost nothing of who he really is.
It's not enough. They're all one thing, and that's pretty much it. There's no "depth" there at all.
I don't agree with this either.
I've found everything about the show so far to be completely predictable, just as I predict that Lorca is really
There's literally only been two episodes I have any desire to see again; the one where they space the Tardigrade and the time loop one.
There's far too much focus on Klingons, Vulcans and the Mirror Universe, all of which has been done to death already. Been there, done that, nothing else interesting to do there.
Please note, I approached the show with an open mind and have seen every episode. I want to like it, and it is my hope that it still might improve. There is potential there, but with every new episode it seems less and less likely that it's going in the direction I want.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Great point! I do both. Discovery has been awesome!
While klingons appeared in a few other episodes, I'd say Trouble With Tribbles, Day of the Dove, and Errand of Mercy, cover it nicely (though Friday's Child shows someone siding with the Federation against the Klingons specifically because of the Klingons' lack of honor).
(Also, those show the TOS versions of characters you have already sen, as DS9's Blood Oath brought back Koloth from TwT, Kang from DotD, and Kor from EoM.)
I can't compare them for the opposite reason of yours: I haven't seen Discovery.
And I totally understand if your dislike of TOS is strong enough that you don't want to watch any of yhose. But if your curiously is high enough to get you yo watch four episodes, that would pretty much gover yhe episodes with Klingons in them.
Every fan hated archers ENT for not really matching the time.
But DIS has more in common with Kelvin-Time form me, started with the "antique" uniforms, with Uruk'hai called klingongs in baroque dresses.
I don't airloke them but in fact send them to stasis no matter of their traits or stats are better than the existing ones.
I dont like Dis for his main theme, for the script, the actors, the storys behind the crewmembers the gender madness and in most for the transparency of every single moment of the story.
Bell only. They did a deal with CBS for exclusive rights in Canada.
If you have a subscription to CraveTV you can watch it. That's how I do it. They put it up one day after its broadcast. I just finished watching episode 12 on it.
Its annoying that I have to pay for a different subscription service but at least they have other things to watch. CBS subscribers get to watch bad network TV. So far on Crave I've watched The Wire, The Sopranos, Handmaid's Tale, Billions, Frontier, Ray Donovan and just started watching Deadwood. So far worth the $8 CAD a month. They even had a special Discovery package (sign up for 6 months, get one free).