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Event Rewards, Threshold:Crew and Ranked:Honor

XoiikuXoiiku ✭✭✭✭
edited March 2018 in Make It So!
I suggest that for events, a change in the reward structure might be worthwhile, as indicated by the title.

For the Threshold rewards, a single copy of each of the event crew would be available at different VP levels, such that people could get access to all of the event crew just by clearing the thresholds. In this way, rather than multiples of just one of the 4* crew there could be at least one of each of the 2*, 3*, and 4*s, and at a suitably high amount of VP the 5*(s). This would both allow more players access to their favorite event crew and prevent multiple duplicates of an unneeded crew from being dismissed.

For the Ranked Rewards, the brackets could be changed to percentage based, and the crew could be replaced by honor, such that each of the brackets would reward an equivalent or relevant amount of honor to the number of crew that are in each bracket. The ranked rewards would then be portal pulls, honor, merits, trainers. This would both allow more players add citations to their crew at a more reasonable rate and prevent multiple duplicates of an unneeded crew from being dismissed.

In this way, players with various numbers of stars on event crew, and even those captains who had all of the previous event crew immortalized would still have some incentive to participate in the event and push for rank. As well, everyone who participates in the event and at least clears the thresholds would have access to event crew, and everyone who gets a certain rank would earn enough honor for citations equivalent to the number and rarity of crew they would have earned under the current system. Additionally, it would also eliminate being pushed just outside of a particular bracket and not getting access to the crew you were after. By replacing the ranked with honor, if you miss your bracket, you just get less honor.

For the Squadron Rewards and/or possibly Fleet Rank Rewards (if such is implemented), perhaps starbase components, and/or honor and merits could be added in addition to the replicator rations and credits.

I also think it would be worthwhile to take crew specific equipment out of the thresholds, particularly for the 2*'s, unless it was specifically for the new event crew. Even so, general equipment and components would have the greatest utility for the majority of captains and not uselessly bloat our inventory if they are for crew we already have immortalized.
We are all downstream from each other and ourselves, therefore choose to be relaxed and groovy.
Consider participating in civil discourse, understanding the Tardigrade, and wandering with the Subspace Eddies.
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Comments

  • XoiikuXoiiku ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2018
    Some other recent threads discussing a need for change in event reward structure:
    Time to Change the Event Rewards Table
    Should event rewards be more evenly spread?
    Two birds with one stone in this idea.
    Event Rewards for Squadrons
    Event Rewards are unbalanced!
    Ranked rewards
    Something Needs to Change for Rewards
    Event rewards for fleet rank
    Another (very small) Event Rewards Suggestion

    Update: More threads on event rewards:
    The hollow taste of finishing 85th!
    Fleet Ranked Event Rewards

    Additionally, this change in event rewards might be a way of addressing part of the honor rate and duplicates problem. There are many threads discussing that topic, for those interested, I suggest calculating your honor debt, and for those who might argue the revenue angle, please consider the lost revenue impact of the current honor exchange and accumulation rates relative to the honor required to immortalize crew at a reasonable pace, when making your case.

    A change in event reward structure would not address the honor rate and duplicates problem from packs. That is a story for another day.
    We are all downstream from each other and ourselves, therefore choose to be relaxed and groovy.
    Consider participating in civil discourse, understanding the Tardigrade, and wandering with the Subspace Eddies.
  • ProsserProsser ✭✭✭
    The event reward structure is so outdated it's shameful. Any change at this point would be welcome and this one looks good to me.
  • One change I'd like to see for the Galaxy event rewards is to replace the 4th SR card (rank 1001 - 1500) with a SR behold. I say this because the community reward makes this card worth only the 200 honor which is horrible. At least a behold would give us a chance at something helpful for all the items, chrons and time spent getting above 1500. Also, (for DB's sake), it may be enough incentive to get more participation past the top threshold.
  • JhamelJhamel ✭✭✭✭✭
    Fleet Ranked Rewards are long overdue ... :(
    "Everything about the Jem'Hadar is lethal!" - Eris (ST-DS9 Episode 2x26 "The Jem'Hadar")
  • I like the idea.
  • Banjo1012Banjo1012 ✭✭✭✭✭
    hrso0plownk9.jpg
    An example of how the Threshold:Crew and Ranked:Honor changes could work with the current event rewards.
    nfv3re271jkp.jpg

    This is FFFAAARRR too optimistic. Even if they considered honor as a reward, first place would be 10,000 total. 20,000 at the very most

  • XoiikuXoiiku ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2018
    Banjo1012 wrote: »
    This is FFFAAARRR too optimistic. Even if they considered honor as a reward, first place would be 10,000 total. 20,000 at the very most

    First place, under the current reward structure rewards a 5/5*. The current honor cost per 5* citation is 50,000 honor. For reference, these are the current honor exchange rates for dismissals and citations.

    iww49s9yqfx8.png

    With this version of the Threshold:Crew and Ranked:Honor idea, one of the first place rank 5*'s is moved to the thresholds, which would be set at a suitable amount of VP. In the image it is currently set at 300,000 though could be calibrated and would end up being whatever would be about what is currently required to place in the top 1000 rank. This leaves 4 of the first place 5*'s.

    All that I have done is convert those 4 remaining 5*'s into equivalent value honor, such that the first place finisher is still being rewarded a 5/5*, though now has the flexibility to use what they earned in the form of honor as best suits them.

    Under the current system, many top finishers already have immortalized the 5* event crew. So, in that case, they aren't really even getting the reward that they earned, they are getting 1/91st the current value of that reward. Which is 550 honor per 1/5* they dismiss, for a grand total of 2,750 honor.

    Even though it would be a bit more than a first place finisher, with already immortalized 5* event crew is earning now, 10,000 Honor wouldn't even buy one 4* citation, and 20,000 would just barely. Is your perspective that someone who finishes first in the event should only get a 4* citation worth of honor?

    These honor values might seem high, until you look at the cost of citations, calculate your honor debt and figure out how long it would take to earn that much honor from current sources.

    The honor in current version isn't optimistic, it's just equivalent. In this way the Threshold:Crew and Ranked:Honor concept would just make it such that top finishers actually got closer to the full value of the rewards they earned.
    We are all downstream from each other and ourselves, therefore choose to be relaxed and groovy.
    Consider participating in civil discourse, understanding the Tardigrade, and wandering with the Subspace Eddies.
  • Banjo1012Banjo1012 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There is NO WAY they would give that much honor. You can look at it however you want, they are not going to see it that way. Their thought will be more like “what is the dismissal rate”, not the rate of citations.
  • XoiikuXoiiku ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2018
    Banjo1012 wrote: »
    There is NO WAY they would give that much honor. You can look at it however you want, they are not going to see it that way. Their thought will be more like “what is the dismissal rate”, not the rate of citations.

    I understand your opinion that equivalent to citation honor values is "is FFFAAARRR too optimistic" and "There is NO WAY they would give that much honor". That has been effectively communicated, and I thank you for your feedback on the idea. It is also your prerogative to disagree with how I am looking at it. I find it curious that apparently exactly none of the considerations I offered seemed relevant enough for you to comment on specifically. Keep in mind, that this is in a concept phase and as such I am only showing an example as a baseline for discussion.

    Once a reasonable baseline honor rate is found, if such for sake of discussing the merits of the idea is different than equivalent to citation honor values, then my plan was to illustrate one of the other merits of this concept. With a currency based ranked reward structure, it would be a lot easier to have a smooth gradient of rewards through the rank brackets. More on that later.

    Something I find, interesting, is your certainty about DB's perspective on the matter. I would like to suggest, that perhaps you could first explain why players would be in favor of dismissal rate honor values as rewards, and if you think they wouldn't, then what portion of citation value would be enough to make the change worthwhile to the players and work for DB. Second, I'd like to suggest that you read up on the on going discussions of the duplicates and honor rate issue and keep those factors in mind when you propose an alternative honor rate. Third, I'd like you to consider a bit of bargaining tactics and ask you to consider what position you'd be willing to compromise from. You are of course welcome to disregard all of that in favor of reemphasizing that your view that equivalent to citation honor values won't work, it just wouldn't add to the discussion.

    What honor rate do you think would work?
    We are all downstream from each other and ourselves, therefore choose to be relaxed and groovy.
    Consider participating in civil discourse, understanding the Tardigrade, and wandering with the Subspace Eddies.
  • Banjo1012Banjo1012 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I’m not saying I wouldn’t like your system. I would be all for getting like 5 legendary citations for a top 3 finish. My comments were made based on the comments I’ve seen from DB concerning honor. Everything I’ve seen from them says they want to remain very stingy with it
  • @Banjo1012 When approaching the bargaining table, begin with presenting what's ideal. Then go from there. It doesn't help our position to go in there automatically starting from whatever sub-par final deal we've come to expect.

    @·§ë· Xoiiku I think these citation equivalent honour values are reasonable, and I'd also like to see them in (an ideally more gradual) percentage based system.

    Since the current rewards are outdated given the influx of players, we can take a look at approx what VP was required to rank 1000 for the 1/5* a year and a half or so ago. Make that correspond to whatever VP threshold or percentile is required to achieve the 1/5 in the new system. (but I really like the idea of the 1/5 being the top threshold)

    Another reason I don't think that citation-equivalent honour values are too much, is that the rewards given for the ranks are already overly inequitable, particularly for ranks 15/25-1500/2000.

    That we get essentially the same rewards for rank 16 or 26 (depending event type) through 1000, and then don't even get to clog up our crew quarters with another 1/5 for 1000-2000, doesn't seem to be working for players.

    A model like Xoiiku is presenting, plus a more gradual spread of rewards through the ranks/percentages, would be less discouraging and more encouraging.
  • Banjo1012Banjo1012 ✭✭✭✭✭
    As far as I know we are not at the negotiating table. Talks have not been opened and if they are I will be completely shocked. However in good faith to you I am on record as saying I would be all for this proposal.
  • Rule of Acquisition #197: We're always at the negotiation table. ;)
  • Banjo1012Banjo1012 ✭✭✭✭✭
    In the words of Keevan....”I hate Feremgi”
  • XoiikuXoiiku ✭✭✭✭
    I've been working on a percentage based ranked reward bracket structure. It seems that a sort of hybrid where the top rewards are static, and the lower rewards are percentage based, might be the way to go. I like the concept of having a completely adaptive structure, but as of yet haven't found an elegant way of doing so.

    As the percentage based concept has been commonly articulated as "like the arena". I used that as a basis, which was this:

    Total Players in Admiral Division of Arena: 146,986
    Brackets from arena:
    Top 1% 1-1469
    Top 5% 1470-7349
    Top 10% 7350-14698
    Top 15% 14699-22047
    Top 20% 22048-29397
    Top 25% 29398-36746
    Top 30% 36747-44095
    Top 50% 44096-73493
    Top 75% 73494-110239
    Top100% 110240-146986

    This isn't likely granular enough, as I think it's unlikely many people are going to want the top 1000 or so ranked rewards to be the same. Does anyone who has suggested a percentage based ranked reward structure have a purely percentage based system which has more brackets than the arena?

    These are some of the percentage based ones I've tried in order to both be adaptive and somewhat conform to the existing brackets. I don't have actual player participation numbers for the events, so I've just estimated from the Admiral Division of Arena, which is approximately: 146,986.

    1,5
    Top 0.001% Rank 0000 - 0001
    Top 0.005% Rank 0002 - 0007
    Top 0.010% Rank 0008 - 0015
    Top 0.050% Rank 0016 - 0073
    Top 0.100% Rank 0074 - 0146
    Top 0.500% Rank 0147 - 0735
    Top 1.000% Rank 0736 - 1470
    Top 1.500% Rank 1471 - 2205

    1,4,7
    Top 0.001% Rank 0000 - 0001
    Top 0.004% Rank 0002 - 0006
    Top 0.007% Rank 0007 - 0010
    Top 0.010% Rank 0011 - 0015
    Top 0.040% Rank 0016 - 0059
    Top 0.070% Rank 0060 - 0103
    Top 0.100% Rank 0074 - 0146

    2,4,6,8
    Top 0.001% Rank 0000 - 0001
    Top 0.002% Rank 0002 - 0003
    Top 0.004% Rank 0003 - 0006
    Top 0.006% Rank 0007 - 0009
    Top 0.008% Rank 0009 - 0012
    Top 0.010% Rank 0013 - 0015

    It seems to me someone with better math skills could find a way of implementing the concept of an completely adaptive ranked reward structure in a more user and UI friendly way. That said perhaps keeping the top 1000 static, the rest adaptive, and just smoothing out the rewards would be good enough?

    Goals are to improve access to crew, reduce duplicates, increase incentive (honor) for all players to compete in the events, and prevent players who have put time and effort into getting crew from being pushed out of their rank (particularly out of the top 1000).
    We are all downstream from each other and ourselves, therefore choose to be relaxed and groovy.
    Consider participating in civil discourse, understanding the Tardigrade, and wandering with the Subspace Eddies.
  • XoiikuXoiiku ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2018
    In a different post I articulated some of the rationale for this change in event rewards as one part of a two part strategy for addressing the honor and duplicates issues. For those interested:
    2. Honor: It has finally been explicitly stated that the honor rate for dismissals will not change. Despite previously being told that our feedback would be considered, it seems exactly none of it has so far swayed DB's views on the matter. As of yet an alternate plan for addressing the concerns on honor rates brought up by the community has not been offered. The ongoing honor rate discussion did indicate an overwhelming consensus that some change would make sense, yet it has failed to alter the dismissal rates from what they were from before it was officially implemented. I encourage everyone with an opinion on the matter to calculate their current honor debt and to consider some of the previous discussion.

    It is the dismissal values relative to the citation costs for the 4* and 5* crew that are particularly problematic.
    boyu5tkspsv9.png

    This poll is from the old forum and has links to the majority of conversations on the honor topic there.
    kae651ijyy8h.png

    The following is one example of the costs of the current honor rates. Another, more difficult to track and interdependent with other factors, would be player loss through burn out and frustration. Most people who have been participating in the honor discussion understand that DB needs to make money and are invested in their success.
    ay38eq5ghbl6.png

    As such, I'd like to suggest two alternate strategies for reducing the number of duplicates from packs and events. Fewer duplicates means fewer dismissals, which provides an upstream work around for the unreasonably low dismissal value relative to the cost of equivalent rarity citations.

    2.a Reducing Duplicates from Packs: Implement some form of the many suggestions which have been offered. Such as making all FF beholds offer either an equivalent citation or a refresh option. The refresh would either be free or a very reasonable cost with multiple currency options (credits, merits, or dilithum). Additionally, packs should not reward 4* or 5* crew outside of beholds, unless it was guaranteed not to be an already FF crew.

    2.b Reducing Duplicates from Event Rewards: One possible way of restructuring event rewards to specifically address the honor and duplicates issue among others: Threshold:Crew and Ranked:Honor.

    In terms of 2.a Reducing Duplicates from Packs, there have many many threads suggesting various solutions. This is one of the more recent: One "refresh" on beholds if all current selections are FF or Immortalized.
    We are all downstream from each other and ourselves, therefore choose to be relaxed and groovy.
    Consider participating in civil discourse, understanding the Tardigrade, and wandering with the Subspace Eddies.
  • XoiikuXoiiku ✭✭✭✭
    ojxda8wc2nzb.jpg
    We are all downstream from each other and ourselves, therefore choose to be relaxed and groovy.
    Consider participating in civil discourse, understanding the Tardigrade, and wandering with the Subspace Eddies.
  • XoiikuXoiiku ✭✭✭✭
    bf20ucqgwrb7.png
    We are all downstream from each other and ourselves, therefore choose to be relaxed and groovy.
    Consider participating in civil discourse, understanding the Tardigrade, and wandering with the Subspace Eddies.
  • FutureImperfectaFutureImperfecta ✭✭✭✭✭
    I honestly hope they do this.
  • XoiikuXoiiku ✭✭✭✭
    I suppose at some point I could make a version 003 with the ranked rewards smoothed out as has been suggested as an additional change to the current reward structure. Before that though, I'd be curious to know if anyone has an alternate suggestion for the percentages used in version 002, or if those look workable enough for sake of demonstrating it's possible.

    Additionally, it might be interesting to get a better sense of approximately how many captains are participating in events, such that we can test out those percentages with more accurate numbers than an estimate derived from the arena.
    We are all downstream from each other and ourselves, therefore choose to be relaxed and groovy.
    Consider participating in civil discourse, understanding the Tardigrade, and wandering with the Subspace Eddies.
  • [DC] Principia[DC] Principia ✭✭✭✭
    I think rather than Honor, since we know a couple hundred Honor is no substitute for someone you can actually use, one idea would be to let people pick when they start gathering Thresholds which of the event 4s they want to be going for as Threshold vs. Ranked. You pick one, you're stuck with that (and its accompanying equipment rewards) for the rest of the path, but that would be one possible improvement.

    In general, going to percentages and having more differentiation between 76 and 1000 (or the equivalent percentages) seems to be in order as a minimum.
  • I think rather than Honor, since we know a couple hundred Honor is no substitute for someone you can actually use,

    We'd still get a copy of the actual crew too, from the thresholds - so we can use that honour to top up that crew or others of our choosing. With this way we just avoid duplicates.
    one idea would be to let people pick when they start gathering Thresholds which of the event 4s they want to be going for as Threshold vs. Ranked. You pick one, you're stuck with that (and its accompanying equipment rewards) for the rest of the path, but that would be one possible improvement.

    I like the idea of having both of the 4* crew (and the 1/5) in the thresholds, with one of them being the 3/4 with corresponding equipment and the other being the 1/4 without equipment. As opposed to having a 3/4 in thresholds and a 4/4 ranked, which often results in many wasted duplicates.

    Choosing which crew is the 3/4+equipment and which is the 1/4 would be welcome if they're both in the thresholds. Then we can fuse them up (or not) with honour from ranked rewards.

    Ideally for me, every time the new 4* (if there is one) would be the 3/4+equipment and the existing 4* would be the 1/4. If the choice complicates coding, I think it would be beneficial to the vast majority of players if this was the pattern/rule.
  • To be honest, at this point anything would be better than the current system.

    I completely despise the Faction event. Is basically a non-go to people that don't spend money or a good amount to go for the ranked rewards and for who spend is pointless because is very probable they already have some if not all the rewards from the event pack.

    Change this travesty to something that rewards your effort rather than your wallet.
  • Banjo1012Banjo1012 ✭✭✭✭✭
    To be honest, at this point anything would be better than the current system.

    I completely despise the Faction event. Is basically a non-go to people that don't spend money or a good amount to go for the ranked rewards and for who spend is pointless because is very probable they already have some if not all the rewards from the event pack.

    Change this travesty to something that rewards your effort rather than your wallet.

    That’s very true. To win a faction event you must spend money. In speaking with someone who finished first some weeks back, this person spent $500 in dilithium for speed ups.
  • JhamelJhamel ✭✭✭✭✭
    To win a Galaxy event, you must spend money as well or play the game without spending any chronitons for almost half a year to get a chance. Faction events for me are a much safer way to get the Top 1000 gold crew star. :)
    "Everything about the Jem'Hadar is lethal!" - Eris (ST-DS9 Episode 2x26 "The Jem'Hadar")
  • And I find it easier to get top 1000 in Galaxy events. Looking forward to next weekend.
  • Banjo1012Banjo1012 ✭✭✭✭✭
    To win a Galaxy event, you must spend money as well or play the game without spending any chronitons for almost half a year to get a chance. Faction events for me are a much safer way to get the Top 1000 gold crew star. :)

    I burned all my chrons in the Lissan event. I’ve spent some leveling 4 or 5 crew since then but have saved the rest. I haven’t bought any either or extended any Voyages. I’m ready to make a run at first again. Can’t remember how long ago that event was. Two months?
  • <TGE> Clifford<TGE> Clifford ✭✭✭✭✭
    Banjo1012 wrote: »
    To win a Galaxy event, you must spend money as well or play the game without spending any chronitons for almost half a year to get a chance. Faction events for me are a much safer way to get the Top 1000 gold crew star. :)

    I burned all my chrons in the Lissan event. I’ve spent some leveling 4 or 5 crew since then but have saved the rest. I haven’t bought any either or extended any Voyages. I’m ready to make a run at first again. Can’t remember how long ago that event was. Two months?

    Lissan was the last week in February, so about a month and a half. (:
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