I like Neelix very much. He's in every possible way better than every single character from STD.
I mean, depending on your view of DSC, that's not saying much of the guy.
I like Neelix better than Jar-Jar Binks, but I also strongly dislike Neelix (barring a few episodes).
I'm generally not a fan of DSC, but I still like a good chunk of DSC character better than I like Neelix.
I dislike whole STD crew with a passion. Poor show with poor writers, bad characters, week storytelling, you name it.
Well then my point stands. If you truly hate everything about DSC, then saying you like Neelix better than every DSC character means nothing. All that means is that he's a value greater than 0 for you. That's hardly a reason to say you "like him very much".
That's like if I said "Ew, I hate string beans with a passion and they're disgusting and make me vomit, but I red peppers are awesome because they're better than string beans". By my first statement, everything is better than string beans, so using that as a marker for what's awesome makes no sense.
Basically, I don't understand why you think Neelix is so great since the only reason you've provided is that you like him better than a thing you hate.
Well, that's one point of view. There is also another one. Each STD episode cost few millions of dollars so you can say Neelix is a very "worthy" character.
I like Neelix very much. He's in every possible way better than every single character from STD.
I mean, depending on your view of DSC, that's not saying much of the guy.
I like Neelix better than Jar-Jar Binks, but I also strongly dislike Neelix (barring a few episodes).
I'm generally not a fan of DSC, but I still like a good chunk of DSC character better than I like Neelix.
I dislike whole STD crew with a passion. Poor show with poor writers, bad characters, week storytelling, you name it.
Well then my point stands. If you truly hate everything about DSC, then saying you like Neelix better than every DSC character means nothing. All that means is that he's a value greater than 0 for you. That's hardly a reason to say you "like him very much".
That's like if I said "Ew, I hate string beans with a passion and they're disgusting and make me vomit, but I red peppers are awesome because they're better than string beans". By my first statement, everything is better than string beans, so using that as a marker for what's awesome makes no sense.
Basically, I don't understand why you think Neelix is so great since the only reason you've provided is that you like him better than a thing you hate.
Well, that's one point of view. There is also another one. Each STD episode cost few millions of dollars so you can say Neelix is a very "worthy" character.
Lol ok sure. If you like Neelix simply because he is better than things you hate, or things you hate that are expensive, then that's your thing.
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2 Pulaskis and a Neelix walk into a bar. Neelix says, “We are featured this week!” Pulaski say, “That’s because DB is running out of options.”
Not great but the best I could do. I’m sure there’s a lot of Pulaski and Neelix fans that disagree.
Imagine if it was Pulaski, Neelix, and Jelico.
Jellico
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Trait: Total D-Bag.
The only good thing Jelico did was getting Deanna into a proper starfleet uniform. Everything else about him was a dumpster fire
I always felt iffy on that.
On one hand, I know Marina Sirtis wanted Deanna to wear a real uniform, and I'm glad she was finally able to.
On the other hand, from an in-universe perspective, it seemed a lot like someone just forcing Deanna to wear something she didn't like, which rubbed me the wrong way, whereas Picard always gave her some leeway with how she chose to dress herself (I doubt he mandated her to wear the clothes she wore).
So, great that the showrunners weren't forcing Marina Sirtis into skimpy outfits she wasn't super keen on, but not great that the character was robbed of a freedom of expression she had under another captain.
Once she kept it in subsequent episodes though, and it was clear she came to like it, I mellowed on it a bit. It became character development for her, which I liked in the end. In the moment though...I was conflicted.
Honestly though, what military service would let one specific officer get away with consistently wearing civilian clothing while on duty? Troi was lucky to have Picard for so long, and Jellico was absolutely within his right to expect his senior officers to adhere to the dress code.
I recently rewatched "Chain of Command," shortly after finishing a course in change management. Jellico's problem wasn't his ideas - it was how he brought those ideas to the crew. Coming in as the new leader of an already formed team and imposing unilateral decisions without conversation is Step 1 in getting those people to hate you. I'm actually dealing with this right now with my new manager and it's the most frustrating thing you can imagine.
2 Pulaskis and a Neelix walk into a bar. Neelix says, “We are featured this week!” Pulaski say, “That’s because DB is running out of options.”
Not great but the best I could do. I’m sure there’s a lot of Pulaski and Neelix fans that disagree.
Imagine if it was Pulaski, Neelix, and Jelico.
Jellico
Dip 0 (0-1)
Trait: Total D-Bag.
The only good thing Jelico did was getting Deanna into a proper starfleet uniform. Everything else about him was a dumpster fire
I always felt iffy on that.
On one hand, I know Marina Sirtis wanted Deanna to wear a real uniform, and I'm glad she was finally able to.
On the other hand, from an in-universe perspective, it seemed a lot like someone just forcing Deanna to wear something she didn't like, which rubbed me the wrong way, whereas Picard always gave her some leeway with how she chose to dress herself (I doubt he mandated her to wear the clothes she wore).
So, great that the showrunners weren't forcing Marina Sirtis into skimpy outfits she wasn't super keen on, but not great that the character was robbed of a freedom of expression she had under another captain.
Once she kept it in subsequent episodes though, and it was clear she came to like it, I mellowed on it a bit. It became character development for her, which I liked in the end. In the moment though...I was conflicted.
Honestly though, what military service would let one specific officer get away with consistently wearing civilian clothing while on duty? Troi was lucky to have Picard for so long, and Jellico was absolutely within his right to expect his senior officers to adhere to the dress code.
I recently rewatched "Chain of Command," shortly after finishing a course in change management. Jellico's problem wasn't his ideas - it was how he brought those ideas to the crew. Coming in as the new leader of an already formed team and imposing unilateral decisions without conversation is Step 1 in getting those people to hate you. I'm actually dealing with this right now with my new manager and it's the most frustrating thing you can imagine.
Jellico was right in a fair bit of what he was doing, it was 100% his attitude as you said. He just walked in and started mandating this and that change, without any respect to the previous captain and the way things were done. It's important to spend time learning about whatever it is you've been newly put in charge of, and it should be a while before you start making broad changes.
And that is also the main thing I had a problem with when he told Troi to go change. With his attitude it felt very much like he was just saying "By the by counselor, you look like a tramp, go change", as opposed to "I understand Picard let you wear your civilian clothing, but now that I have command I will enforce Starfleet's uniform policy".
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Jellico was right in a fair bit of what he was doing, it was 100% his attitude as you said. He just walked in and started mandating this and that change, without any respect to the previous captain and the way things were done. It's important to spend time learning about whatever it is you've been newly put in charge of, and it should be a while before you start making broad changes.
Yeah, who does he think he is ordering people around like that?
Seriously, I understand your point about taking the time. The crew had the same opinion.
The problem was, they didn't have that luxury of time. They were potentially days away from a war, where the Enterprise would be on the front line, probably with little immediate support. The Enterprise was a fine ship, with a fine crew, but they weren't prepared for the worst case scenario. Jelico's job was to get them ready for war, and quickly.
Jellico was right in a fair bit of what he was doing, it was 100% his attitude as you said. He just walked in and started mandating this and that change, without any respect to the previous captain and the way things were done. It's important to spend time learning about whatever it is you've been newly put in charge of, and it should be a while before you start making broad changes.
Yeah, who does he think he is ordering people around like that?
Seriously, I understand your point about taking the time. The crew had the same opinion.
The problem was, they didn't have that luxury of time. They were potentially days away from a war, where the Enterprise would be on the front line, probably with little immediate support. The Enterprise was a fine ship, with a fine crew, but they weren't prepared for the worst case scenario. Jelico's job was to get them ready for war, and quickly.
But did he have to be such an asshat while doing it?
Like I said, his whole attitude was that the crew were completely incompetent, all because they used to be led by some fool named Picard and now he has to come in and fix absolutely everything because clearly it's all broken and the senior staff's opinions definitely don't matter.
Obviously, it's a military vessel at that point, and it has a captain that needs to get things done, but there's a right and a wrong way to do it, and making your senior staff resent you isn't good when you're going into a combat situation.
And from the perspective of a viewer, he's just unlikeable (but a good character nonetheless, and that actor is at his best when he's being a total asshat bossing people around).
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With his attitude it felt very much like he was just saying "By the by counselor, you look like a tramp, go change", as opposed to "I understand Picard let you wear your civilian clothing, but now that I have command I will enforce Starfleet's uniform policy".
I want to point out that not wearing uniform for Troi is first and foremost something that helps her doing her job. It's much easier to open to civilian-looking counselor than to Proper Officer (TM). What next - he'll suggest engineers that they should not carry most commonly used small-sized spares and tools just in case when not on duty? Because it obviously also against regulations... and lack of it can pretty easy kill entire ship in aforementioned wartime because of "fix it now".
It's sign of experienced commander to know which rules are guidelines... and which are line that should never be crossed.
...
And uniform regulations are first to suffer in veteran unit.
But did he have to be such an asshat while doing it?
When did the asshattery start? When he told Riker to implement a four shift rotation, and Riker didn't do it? Jelico could have handled things better, but so could have the crew.
Like I said, his whole attitude was that the crew were completely incompetent, all because they used to be led by some fool named Picard and now he has to come in and fix absolutely everything because clearly it's all broken and the senior staff's opinions definitely don't matter.
Again, I'm sure the crew saw it that way, I don't. The crew were not incompetent, but neither were they prepared for what may have happened if it all hit the fan. There's a huge difference there.
So Jelico came in like a slave driver. The crew responded with a hissy fit. Blame on both sides.
I want to point out that not wearing uniform for Troi is first and foremost something that helps her doing her job. It's much easier to open to civilian-looking counselor than to Proper Officer (TM).
I believe he was specifically referring to while on the bridge, not office hours.
But did he have to be such an asshat while doing it?
When did the asshattery start? When he told Riker to implement a four shift rotation, and Riker didn't do it? Jelico could have handled things better, but so could have the crew.
Like I said, his whole attitude was that the crew were completely incompetent, all because they used to be led by some fool named Picard and now he has to come in and fix absolutely everything because clearly it's all broken and the senior staff's opinions definitely don't matter.
Again, I'm sure the crew saw it that way, I don't. The crew were not incompetent, but neither were they prepared for what may have happened if it all hit the fan. There's a huge difference there.
So Jelico came in like a slave driver. The crew responded with a hissy fit. Blame on both sides.
I agree, the crew weren't taking it very well, but they also just went through a lot of stuff. Also, I think Starfleet on the whole was really bad at preparing its officers for actual military-type missions and protocols. They were so used to be explorers they kind of forgot that they were also the only military the Federation has, and sometimes they need to act like it.
And the asshattery basically started as soon as he boarded the ship, but it's also been a few years since I watched the episode, so my memory may be skewed.
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Digressing back to Neelix for a minute... I just wanted to comment that I found him to be a character that grew and developed over time in a major fashion. Yes, he kept many of the affectations, but in a way Voyager was his journey of growing up. I felt like he started as a complete buffoon and overbearing bad (bordering on abusive) boyfriend, but developed some depth that it actually felt sad to me in the end when he found another path. (Trying real damn hard not do spoil just in case someone is actually planning on watching Voyager... like on BBC/BBC America )
But if all I had to go on was season 1 and 2 Voyager he'd be more annoying that "drunk" Wesley in the Naked Now.
I felt like he started as a complete buffoon and overbearing bad (bordering on abusive) boyfriend, but developed some depth
I think the Kes breakup was the best thing that happened to Neelix.
It was also the best thing that happened to Kes.
But yes, Neelix did change a fair amount after that, and I started to like him better from there on.
My absolute least favourite Neelix moment ever though, which kind of irrevocably sours him for me, was the episode where Tuvok gets his mind wiped and Neelix is leading him around the ship. I was already horrified for Tuvok, I hated seeing him like that, and I really didn't like the way Neelix seemed to be almost taking advantage of his state, being overly condescending, parading him around the bridge...I don't know, it seemed mean on Neelix's part and actually not in character. I didn't like watching it, it upset me, and made me wonder who Neelix really is. Honestly, if that episode never happened, I'd probably like Neelix much more than I do.
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I felt like he started as a complete buffoon and overbearing bad (bordering on abusive) boyfriend, but developed some depth
I think the Kes breakup was the best thing that happened to Neelix.
It was also the best thing that happened to Kes.
But yes, Neelix did change a fair amount after that, and I started to like him better from there on.
My absolute least favourite Neelix moment ever though, which kind of irrevocably sours him for me, was the episode where Tuvok gets his mind wiped and Neelix is leading him around the ship. I was already horrified for Tuvok, I hated seeing him like that, and I really didn't like the way Neelix seemed to be almost taking advantage of his state, being overly condescending, parading him around the bridge...I don't know, it seemed mean on Neelix's part and actually not in character. I didn't like watching it, it upset me, and made me wonder who Neelix really is. Honestly, if that episode never happened, I'd probably like Neelix much more than I do.
I tended to attribute that to Neelix's immaturity coming out again. His behavior reminds me a lot of things I've seen in young kids who have not learned how to act around someone who has a disability. It felt like a regression for sure. I also pondered how much of that was encouraged by Dawson who was directing the episode.
I felt like he started as a complete buffoon and overbearing bad (bordering on abusive) boyfriend, but developed some depth
I think the Kes breakup was the best thing that happened to Neelix.
It was also the best thing that happened to Kes.
But yes, Neelix did change a fair amount after that, and I started to like him better from there on.
My absolute least favourite Neelix moment ever though, which kind of irrevocably sours him for me, was the episode where Tuvok gets his mind wiped and Neelix is leading him around the ship. I was already horrified for Tuvok, I hated seeing him like that, and I really didn't like the way Neelix seemed to be almost taking advantage of his state, being overly condescending, parading him around the bridge...I don't know, it seemed mean on Neelix's part and actually not in character. I didn't like watching it, it upset me, and made me wonder who Neelix really is. Honestly, if that episode never happened, I'd probably like Neelix much more than I do.
I tended to attribute that to Neelix's immaturity coming out again. His behavior reminds me a lot of things I've seen in young kids who have not learned how to act around someone who has a disability. It felt like a regression for sure. I also pondered how much of that was encouraged by Dawson who was directing the episode.
Was that one of her first episodes directing? I tended to like her directing, on VOY and other shows that followed. I didn't even realise that was one of her episodes.
But yeah, his immaturity is one of the things that always made me cringe when watching him. Also the episode where he's trying to keep Naomi from finding out about her mom. I was very frustrated with him that episode, mainly because I had been in a similar situation as Naomi when I was younger (and about her age), so maybe that was more troubling for me than for others, but I really just wanted to deck him for most of that episode.
His best episodes were the ones where he seemed to be world weary, and grown up. I wish he had been like that more consistently in the latter part of VOY.
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Unpopular opinion, but I think Neelix was the best-written character on Voyager, even as early as season 2.
Yes, he was annoying, and childish, and often positively dislikable, BUT everybody on the ship knew it. In a series full of weird characters that no one ever seemed to think were weird (Hakuchi Moya?), EVERYBODY on the ship reacted to Neelix in exactly the same way the viewer did: usually kind of annoyed, sometimes chuckling, and begrudgingly admitting that he is really useful and smart sometimes. For me, this shows that the writers were very much aware of the character they created, and were consistent in maintaining that character.
End unpopular opinion.
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Unpopular opinion, but I think Neelix was the best-written character on Voyager, even as early as season 2.
Yes, he was annoying, and childish, and often positively dislikable, BUT everybody on the ship knew it. In a series full of weird characters that no one ever seemed to think were weird (Hakuchi Moya?), EVERYBODY on the ship reacted to Neelix in exactly the same way the viewer did: usually kind of annoyed, sometimes chuckling, and begrudgingly admitting that he is really useful and smart sometimes. For me, this shows that the writers were very much aware of the character they created, and were consistent in maintaining that character.
End unpopular opinion.
I don’t know that people would find this unpopular: as unlikable as he was, I can definitely agree that it wasn’t bad writing that caused him to be unlikable. And I think Ethan Philips portrayed him quite well on top of that.
It’s like how we all (seem to) love Dukat because the writers did almost as good a job writing him as Marc Alaimo did portraying him, even though the character is a deranged, evil lunatic.
Unpopular opinion, but I think Neelix was the best-written character on Voyager, even as early as season 2.
Yes, he was annoying, and childish, and often positively dislikable, BUT everybody on the ship knew it. In a series full of weird characters that no one ever seemed to think were weird (Hakuchi Moya?), EVERYBODY on the ship reacted to Neelix in exactly the same way the viewer did: usually kind of annoyed, sometimes chuckling, and begrudgingly admitting that he is really useful and smart sometimes. For me, this shows that the writers were very much aware of the character they created, and were consistent in maintaining that character.
End unpopular opinion.
I don’t know that people would find this unpopular: as unlikable as he was, I can definitely agree that it wasn’t bad writing that caused him to be unlikable. And I think Ethan Philips portrayed him quite well on top of that.
It’s like how we all (seem to) love Dukat because the writers did almost as good a job writing him as Marc Alaimo did portraying him, even though the character is a deranged, evil lunatic.
Exactly. Neelix was written well, and as Jess said, the reactions were written well (I think we can all empathise with Tuvok) and Ethan Philips was very talented.
He's just still annoying and immature. Much like, as you said, Dukat was insane and evil.
Contrast to Wesley who frankly wasn't written very well, everyone adored him too much, gave him too much leeway etc and Wil Wheaton was just not the greatest actor (he was okay, but not as good as Cirroc Lofton for example).
So yeah, people (like myself) dislike Neelix because they found him annoying, not because he was a poorly written/acted character. And for me, it's not even that he was annoying. It's that he was prominently annoying in a show that didn't offer enough other things beyond some good characters in halfway decent plots. If you're watching an episode that you're already lukewarm on, or it doesn't feature one of the two characters you actually like, and then Neelix appears, it's enough to make you want to walk away.
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Well, that's one point of view. There is also another one. Each STD episode cost few millions of dollars so you can say Neelix is a very "worthy" character.
Lol ok sure. If you like Neelix simply because he is better than things you hate, or things you hate that are expensive, then that's your thing.
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I recently rewatched "Chain of Command," shortly after finishing a course in change management. Jellico's problem wasn't his ideas - it was how he brought those ideas to the crew. Coming in as the new leader of an already formed team and imposing unilateral decisions without conversation is Step 1 in getting those people to hate you. I'm actually dealing with this right now with my new manager and it's the most frustrating thing you can imagine.
Jellico was right in a fair bit of what he was doing, it was 100% his attitude as you said. He just walked in and started mandating this and that change, without any respect to the previous captain and the way things were done. It's important to spend time learning about whatever it is you've been newly put in charge of, and it should be a while before you start making broad changes.
And that is also the main thing I had a problem with when he told Troi to go change. With his attitude it felt very much like he was just saying "By the by counselor, you look like a tramp, go change", as opposed to "I understand Picard let you wear your civilian clothing, but now that I have command I will enforce Starfleet's uniform policy".
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Yeah, who does he think he is ordering people around like that?
Seriously, I understand your point about taking the time. The crew had the same opinion.
The problem was, they didn't have that luxury of time. They were potentially days away from a war, where the Enterprise would be on the front line, probably with little immediate support. The Enterprise was a fine ship, with a fine crew, but they weren't prepared for the worst case scenario. Jelico's job was to get them ready for war, and quickly.
But did he have to be such an asshat while doing it?
Like I said, his whole attitude was that the crew were completely incompetent, all because they used to be led by some fool named Picard and now he has to come in and fix absolutely everything because clearly it's all broken and the senior staff's opinions definitely don't matter.
Obviously, it's a military vessel at that point, and it has a captain that needs to get things done, but there's a right and a wrong way to do it, and making your senior staff resent you isn't good when you're going into a combat situation.
And from the perspective of a viewer, he's just unlikeable (but a good character nonetheless, and that actor is at his best when he's being a total asshat bossing people around).
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It's sign of experienced commander to know which rules are guidelines... and which are line that should never be crossed.
...
And uniform regulations are first to suffer in veteran unit.
When did the asshattery start? When he told Riker to implement a four shift rotation, and Riker didn't do it? Jelico could have handled things better, but so could have the crew.
Again, I'm sure the crew saw it that way, I don't. The crew were not incompetent, but neither were they prepared for what may have happened if it all hit the fan. There's a huge difference there.
So Jelico came in like a slave driver. The crew responded with a hissy fit. Blame on both sides.
I believe he was specifically referring to while on the bridge, not office hours.
I agree, the crew weren't taking it very well, but they also just went through a lot of stuff. Also, I think Starfleet on the whole was really bad at preparing its officers for actual military-type missions and protocols. They were so used to be explorers they kind of forgot that they were also the only military the Federation has, and sometimes they need to act like it.
And the asshattery basically started as soon as he boarded the ship, but it's also been a few years since I watched the episode, so my memory may be skewed.
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But if all I had to go on was season 1 and 2 Voyager he'd be more annoying that "drunk" Wesley in the Naked Now.
I think the Kes breakup was the best thing that happened to Neelix.
It certainly was a wakeup, also his near death experience and her departure had some impact (though maybe not as much) as well.
It was also the best thing that happened to Kes.
But yes, Neelix did change a fair amount after that, and I started to like him better from there on.
My absolute least favourite Neelix moment ever though, which kind of irrevocably sours him for me, was the episode where Tuvok gets his mind wiped and Neelix is leading him around the ship. I was already horrified for Tuvok, I hated seeing him like that, and I really didn't like the way Neelix seemed to be almost taking advantage of his state, being overly condescending, parading him around the bridge...I don't know, it seemed mean on Neelix's part and actually not in character. I didn't like watching it, it upset me, and made me wonder who Neelix really is. Honestly, if that episode never happened, I'd probably like Neelix much more than I do.
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I tended to attribute that to Neelix's immaturity coming out again. His behavior reminds me a lot of things I've seen in young kids who have not learned how to act around someone who has a disability. It felt like a regression for sure. I also pondered how much of that was encouraged by Dawson who was directing the episode.
Was that one of her first episodes directing? I tended to like her directing, on VOY and other shows that followed. I didn't even realise that was one of her episodes.
But yeah, his immaturity is one of the things that always made me cringe when watching him. Also the episode where he's trying to keep Naomi from finding out about her mom. I was very frustrated with him that episode, mainly because I had been in a similar situation as Naomi when I was younger (and about her age), so maybe that was more troubling for me than for others, but I really just wanted to deck him for most of that episode.
His best episodes were the ones where he seemed to be world weary, and grown up. I wish he had been like that more consistently in the latter part of VOY.
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Yes, he was annoying, and childish, and often positively dislikable, BUT everybody on the ship knew it. In a series full of weird characters that no one ever seemed to think were weird (Hakuchi Moya?), EVERYBODY on the ship reacted to Neelix in exactly the same way the viewer did: usually kind of annoyed, sometimes chuckling, and begrudgingly admitting that he is really useful and smart sometimes. For me, this shows that the writers were very much aware of the character they created, and were consistent in maintaining that character.
End unpopular opinion.
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I don’t know that people would find this unpopular: as unlikable as he was, I can definitely agree that it wasn’t bad writing that caused him to be unlikable. And I think Ethan Philips portrayed him quite well on top of that.
It’s like how we all (seem to) love Dukat because the writers did almost as good a job writing him as Marc Alaimo did portraying him, even though the character is a deranged, evil lunatic.
Exactly. Neelix was written well, and as Jess said, the reactions were written well (I think we can all empathise with Tuvok) and Ethan Philips was very talented.
He's just still annoying and immature. Much like, as you said, Dukat was insane and evil.
Contrast to Wesley who frankly wasn't written very well, everyone adored him too much, gave him too much leeway etc and Wil Wheaton was just not the greatest actor (he was okay, but not as good as Cirroc Lofton for example).
So yeah, people (like myself) dislike Neelix because they found him annoying, not because he was a poorly written/acted character. And for me, it's not even that he was annoying. It's that he was prominently annoying in a show that didn't offer enough other things beyond some good characters in halfway decent plots. If you're watching an episode that you're already lukewarm on, or it doesn't feature one of the two characters you actually like, and then Neelix appears, it's enough to make you want to walk away.
Cardassian wishlist:
Tora Ziyal - Thanks!
Natima Lang
Empok Nor Garak
Tekeny Ghemor
Mira
Makbar
Dejar
Ulani Belor
*Buys Pebble a drink*
omg lol