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Faction event next week - Any news on AND display bug?

Cranky (SC) Cranky (SC) ✭✭✭✭✭
edited October 2018 in The Bridge
Dear DB,

With a faction event next weekend it’d be really nice to know if the AND slot display bug has been fixed yet please?

Also, less urgent but still important, what plans (if any) are there to compensate players for missions that failed (due to the miscalculated displayed success percentages) within the time period that the bug persisted/persists for?

Many thanks and looking forward to your response,
«13

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  • Options
    Cranky (SC) Cranky (SC) ✭✭✭✭✭
    For those that wonder what I am referring to, this is the original community investigation into the matter: https://forum.disruptorbeam.com/stt/discussion/5097/edit-final-results-2nd-experiment-results-and-shuttles-are-absolutely-bugged/p1

    This is @Peachtree Rex’s shortened summary:
    Peachtree Rex wrote: »
    Last fall, DB updated how "AND" slots were supposed to be scored. Instead of averaging the two skills, they indicated they would use the higher of the two skills and then add 25% of the lower skill as a bonus.

    The front-end displayed percentages seemed to agree with this new formula. However, lots of people complained about getting bad results. "RNG whining" is nothing new to the forum, but, eventually, people started generating actual statistics that showed there was almost certainly something wrong "somewhere" (even if it was difficult to identify).

    Over the course of weeks/months, the AND slot behavior was identified and the linked thread above are research results where some people loaded AND slots "backwards". That is, if the slot was SKILL 1 AND SKILL 2, they would send a character with just SKILL 2. These missions saw an enormous increase in failures as opposed to AND slots loaded "forwards".

    Essentially, there was a disconnect between the displayed expected success rate and the actually mission success calculation. The front end expected rate was using the newly advertised formula and the back end mission success was, instead, using FIRST/SECOND skill instead of HIGHER/LOWER.

    Shan eventually posts that she has created a ticket and the team is looking into it. A month or so later, they release a "shuttle revamp" which introduced a new success/fail screen along with additional rewards on failure. Additionally, it appears the Front/Back end discrepancy has gone away.

    DB has yet to acknowledge they changed anything in regards to shuttle success rates. Had it not taken such an effort from the community to demonstrate the error, I don't think there would be nearly as much frustration or expectations. Because it took so much community-generated evidence for DB to even bother investigating, we kind of expect them to share their findings with the community and at least admit that, yes, there was a problem.


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    DavideBooksDavideBooks ✭✭✭✭✭
    I will put in my usual response:

    First: I believe the issue is fixed. However, I want DB to say (at the very least), "We looked into the issue and it is currently not present. You can be confident in your game play."

    Second: These threads are fair game until we get an official response.
  • Options
    Cranky (SC) Cranky (SC) ✭✭✭✭✭
    DavideBooks wrote: »
    I will put in my usual response:

    First: I believe the issue is fixed. However, I want DB to say (at the very least), "We looked into the issue and it is currently not present. You can be confident in your game play."

    Second: These threads are fair game until we get an official response.

    I personally don’t believe it is fixed. I had a lot of ‘bad RNG’ in the last event with Tuxedo Nog - Missions where I loaded him into ENG& slots seemed to underperform quite badly.
  • Options
    Peachtree RexPeachtree Rex ✭✭✭✭✭
    {ACE} Admiral Pasty wrote: »
    DavideBooks wrote: »
    I will put in my usual response:

    First: I believe the issue is fixed. However, I want DB to say (at the very least), "We looked into the issue and it is currently not present. You can be confident in your game play."

    Second: These threads are fair game until we get an official response.

    I personally don’t believe it is fixed. I had a lot of ‘bad RNG’ in the last event with Tuxedo Nog - Missions where I loaded him into ENG& slots seemed to underperform quite badly.

    The experiments using the single-AND FED missions are very easy to replicate and only take a day's worth or so of shuttles to confirm.
  • Options
    Cranky (SC) Cranky (SC) ✭✭✭✭✭
    Peachtree Rex wrote: »
    {ACE} Admiral Pasty wrote: »
    DavideBooks wrote: »
    I will put in my usual response:

    First: I believe the issue is fixed. However, I want DB to say (at the very least), "We looked into the issue and it is currently not present. You can be confident in your game play."

    Second: These threads are fair game until we get an official response.

    I personally don’t believe it is fixed. I had a lot of ‘bad RNG’ in the last event with Tuxedo Nog - Missions where I loaded him into ENG& slots seemed to underperform quite badly.

    The experiments using the single-AND FED missions are very easy to replicate and only take a day's worth or so of shuttles to confirm.

    Is this something you’ve already done? If I had seen a good quality investigation into whether the issue is fixed I’d be more ready to believe it. It’s possible I missed it so any link would be appreciated.

    Alternatively, I would probably do as you suggest and try it for myself, but I couldn’t hope to match the logic and effort that you and others put into the original experiment.

  • Options
    Cranky (SC) Cranky (SC) ✭✭✭✭✭
    And now we reach the part of the discussion where many might say “why should I have to prove it’s fixed? - enough effort went into proving it was broken, DB should tell us if it is now fixed!”

    Someone edit the matrix meme please haha :p
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    Peachtree RexPeachtree Rex ✭✭✭✭✭
    {ACE} Admiral Pasty wrote: »
    Peachtree Rex wrote: »
    {ACE} Admiral Pasty wrote: »
    DavideBooks wrote: »
    I will put in my usual response:

    First: I believe the issue is fixed. However, I want DB to say (at the very least), "We looked into the issue and it is currently not present. You can be confident in your game play."

    Second: These threads are fair game until we get an official response.

    I personally don’t believe it is fixed. I had a lot of ‘bad RNG’ in the last event with Tuxedo Nog - Missions where I loaded him into ENG& slots seemed to underperform quite badly.

    The experiments using the single-AND FED missions are very easy to replicate and only take a day's worth or so of shuttles to confirm.

    Is this something you’ve already done? If I had seen a good quality investigation into whether the issue is fixed I’d be more ready to believe it. It’s possible I missed it so any link would be appreciated.

    Alternatively, I would probably do as you suggest and try it for myself, but I couldn’t hope to match the logic and effort that you and others put into the original experiment.

    No, I've never done any of the shuttle analysis personally. Basically, find the 1-AND-slot FED shuttle missions:

    https://stt.wiki/wiki/Faction_Missions#Federation

    Investigate Corruption (DIP AND CMD) and Rescue Citizen Captives (DIP AND SEC)

    Run the former with a crew that ONLY has the CMD skill and run the latter with a crew that ONLY has the SEC skill. Record the displayed probability before sending (be aware, it may change over time since shuttle difficulty changes with passes/successes) and then note whether or not it passes.

    The observed disparity was HUGE (expected pass rates were supposed to be in the 60-65% range and observed rates were in the 30%s) so it really only takes a dozen or so trials to show if something fishy is going on.

    Apply a binomial comparison (which is easily done in Excel or other spreadsheet) to see how likely your results are to have occurred by random chance.
  • Options
    Cranky (SC) Cranky (SC) ✭✭✭✭✭
    Amphistaff wrote: »
    {ACE} Admiral Pasty wrote: »
    Dear DB,

    With a faction event next weekend it’d be really nice to know if the AND slot display bug has been fixed yet please?

    Also, less urgent but still important, what plans (if any) are there to compensate players for missions that failed (due to the miscalculated displayed success percentages) within the time period that the bug persisted/persists for?

    Many thanks and looking forward to your response,

    JFC man, stop bringing this up every freaking time. Clearly we're not going to get an official response so please stop spamming the message board.

    This is the first time I have personally brought this up.

    If you’re happy to move on, then great. I’m still looking for answers, hence the thread.

  • Options
    PhantumPhantum ✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    Hi,

    I did get a definitive response from customer support but my tests left me with doubts.

    I noticed a similar issue with the shuttle missions failing a lot on high success displayed percentages. I read some previous post about the previous AND issue. I have a good feel for statistics (PhD in Physics) but did not have the resources to do the proper population sample hypothesis tests to extreme confidence, also I needed to assume a normal distribution which is likely not correct.

    Anyhow I wrote to support and got a load of stupid replies for about 3 weeks. Maybe it was just a lie to shut me up but I finally I got the following definitive response (specific to the AND skill tests)

    As per our Community Guidelines, please do not post private exchanges between you and our company, this includes support. ˜Shan
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    DavideBooksDavideBooks ✭✭✭✭✭
    @Phantum
    Thanks for sharing. However, I think you are supposed to not directly quote customer service and I'm fairly certain you are not supposed to name them. Might want to edit that.
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    Banjo1012Banjo1012 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That’s a no-no. Not allowed to post direct responses from CS
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    Banjo1012Banjo1012 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Either way, you WANT the higher skill first anyway. Your odds of success are better that way bugged or not
  • Options
    Captain_WhoCaptain_Who ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    Phantum wrote: »
    Hi,

    I did get a definitive response from customer support but my tests left me with doubts.

    I noticed a similar issue with the shuttle missions failing a lot on high success displayed percentages. I read some previous post about the previous AND issue. I have a good feel for statistics (PhD in Physics) but did not have the resources to do the proper population sample hypothesis tests to extreme confidence, also I needed to assume a normal distribution which is likely not correct.

    Anyhow I wrote to support and got a load of stupid replies for about 3 weeks. Maybe it was just a lie to shut me up but I finally I got the following definitive response (specific to the AND skill tests)

    As per our Community Guidelines, please do not post private exchanges between you and our company, this includes support. ˜Shan

    Sorry, I put less than zero stake into what CS says about any issues. This is the line they've always held. They've got a L O N G history of being wrong about game things and not understanding game mechanics, are an outsourced third party, regurgitate the party line they're told to without thought, and do whatever it takes to shut you up and close the ticket.

    Besides, DB has continually held the line that there is no known issue. Literally the last thing we've heard on this is Shan saying she'll ask for it to be looked into. Since, DEAFENING silence.

    I had thought the bug might be fixed, and have acted if it is. But the last event left me doubting when I was getting higher than I should failure rates. But that could have been a fluke, DBs terrible streaky RNG, or a bug with crew displaying bonuses but not providing them (not the first time that's happened).
  • Options
    Banjo1012Banjo1012 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Paladin 27 wrote: »
    Banjo1012 wrote: »
    Either way, you WANT the higher skill first anyway. Your odds of success are better that way bugged or not

    If it’s not bugged the order shouldn’t matter.

    And choosing the higher skill to be the first one in the slot sometimes leads to lower percentages. We shouldn’t have to give up a few percent on all our shuttles to avoid running into the bug.

    I was of the understanding that the first slot counts for 75% and the second slot counts for 25%. If that is the case then yes, you want the higher skill base first. If it’s not the case then I have no idea what I’m talking about and should be ignored

  • Options
    barrydancerbarrydancer ✭✭✭✭✭
    Banjo1012 wrote: »
    Paladin 27 wrote: »
    Banjo1012 wrote: »
    Either way, you WANT the higher skill first anyway. Your odds of success are better that way bugged or not

    If it’s not bugged the order shouldn’t matter.

    And choosing the higher skill to be the first one in the slot sometimes leads to lower percentages. We shouldn’t have to give up a few percent on all our shuttles to avoid running into the bug.

    I was of the understanding that the first slot counts for 75% and the second slot counts for 25%. If that is the case then yes, you want the higher skill base first. If it’s not the case then I have no idea what I’m talking about and should be ignored

    Which is why it would be super frigging nice if Shan, Riker, DB, anyone would just confirm how the AND slots are supported to work. But, for some unfathomable reason, they refuse.
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    [7TW] UnkieB[7TW] UnkieB ✭✭✭✭✭
    Banjo1012 wrote: »
    Paladin 27 wrote: »
    Banjo1012 wrote: »
    Either way, you WANT the higher skill first anyway. Your odds of success are better that way bugged or not

    If it’s not bugged the order shouldn’t matter.

    And choosing the higher skill to be the first one in the slot sometimes leads to lower percentages. We shouldn’t have to give up a few percent on all our shuttles to avoid running into the bug.

    I was of the understanding that the first slot counts for 75% and the second slot counts for 25%. If that is the case then yes, you want the higher skill base first. If it’s not the case then I have no idea what I’m talking about and should be ignored

    It's supposed to be Highest skill value + x% of Lowest skill value, according to DB. The bug is/was that it was doing First skill listed + x% of Second skill listed regardless of which skill has the higher value.
    7TH Tactical Wing, now recruiting
  • Options
    Banjo1012Banjo1012 ✭✭✭✭✭
    [7TW] UnkieB wrote: »
    Banjo1012 wrote: »
    Paladin 27 wrote: »
    Banjo1012 wrote: »
    Either way, you WANT the higher skill first anyway. Your odds of success are better that way bugged or not

    If it’s not bugged the order shouldn’t matter.

    And choosing the higher skill to be the first one in the slot sometimes leads to lower percentages. We shouldn’t have to give up a few percent on all our shuttles to avoid running into the bug.

    I was of the understanding that the first slot counts for 75% and the second slot counts for 25%. If that is the case then yes, you want the higher skill base first. If it’s not the case then I have no idea what I’m talking about and should be ignored

    It's supposed to be Highest skill value + x% of Lowest skill value, according to DB. The bug is/was that it was doing First skill listed + x% of Second skill listed regardless of which skill has the higher value.

    I think I got it now. I will say this. When I didn’t take the order listed into consideration I was failing at a higher rate than I should have been. Ever since I put the higher skill in the first slot, I have been succeeding at a rate comparable to the percentage shown. I have no reason to change that now.

  • Options
    Ishmael MarxIshmael Marx ✭✭✭✭✭
    I've been filling shuttle slots based on skill order since the players first described the statistical results. My outcomes were typically 15-20% below displayed success before making the change. They are typically +/- 3% after the change. I refuse to alter my selection process now, unless I read (from DB preferably) that the bug has been fixed.

    Adhering to the first-second strategy often results in my skipping certain shuttles that would otherwise seem perfect, or sometimes even skipping the faction I would prefer to run (farm) in favor of one that fits my crew better. I've had a couple faction events where I didn't even use the FE'd 3x bonus crew in an AND slot because the order didn't match (just used him/her in a solo slot that matched their primary skill). This process is annoying - but far less annoying than failing an extra 20 shuttles because the math is wrong.

    As the OP noted, the Tuxedo Nog event was quite problematic. Lots of Eng-Dip slots to be found, but Nog's skill order was Dip-Cmd-Eng. If the AND bug is fixed (or let's just say "non-existent"), then he would be fine in those slots. If it's not, then he was a catastrophe waiting to happen.

    As for compensation... c'mon, it's just not going to happen.
  • Options
    Banjo1012Banjo1012 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ishmael Marx wrote: »
    I've been filling shuttle slots based on skill order since the players first described the statistical results. My outcomes were typically 15-20% below displayed success before making the change. They are typically +/- 3% after the change. I refuse to alter my selection process now, unless I read (from DB preferably) that the bug has been fixed.

    Adhering to the first-second strategy often results in my skipping certain shuttles that would otherwise seem perfect, or sometimes even skipping the faction I would prefer to run (farm) in favor of one that fits my crew better. I've had a couple faction events where I didn't even use the FE'd 3x bonus crew in an AND slot because the order didn't match (just used him/her in a solo slot that matched their primary skill). This process is annoying - but far less annoying than failing an extra 20 shuttles because the math is wrong.

    As the OP noted, the Tuxedo Nog event was quite problematic. Lots of Eng-Dip slots to be found, but Nog's skill order was Dip-Cmd-Eng. If the AND bug is fixed (or let's just say "non-existent"), then he would be fine in those slots. If it's not, then he was a catastrophe waiting to happen.

    As for compensation... c'mon, it's just not going to happen.

    I’m with everything you just said. And they won’t give a response to it so I will never change that strategy. It works. That’s all I need to know
  • Options
    Dirk GundersonDirk Gunderson ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ishmael Marx wrote: »
    I've been filling shuttle slots based on skill order since the players first described the statistical results. My outcomes were typically 15-20% below displayed success before making the change. They are typically +/- 3% after the change. I refuse to alter my selection process now, unless I read (from DB preferably) that the bug has been fixed.

    Adhering to the first-second strategy often results in my skipping certain shuttles that would otherwise seem perfect, or sometimes even skipping the faction I would prefer to run (farm) in favor of one that fits my crew better. I've had a couple faction events where I didn't even use the FE'd 3x bonus crew in an AND slot because the order didn't match (just used him/her in a solo slot that matched their primary skill). This process is annoying - but far less annoying than failing an extra 20 shuttles because the math is wrong.

    As the OP noted, the Tuxedo Nog event was quite problematic. Lots of Eng-Dip slots to be found, but Nog's skill order was Dip-Cmd-Eng. If the AND bug is fixed (or let's just say "non-existent"), then he would be fine in those slots. If it's not, then he was a catastrophe waiting to happen.

    As for compensation... c'mon, it's just not going to happen.

    Agree 100% with your first paragraph.

    I don’t skip missions because an opened but not completed transmission is a total loss, while a failed mission at least gets you something. What I do when I don’t have a perfect crew member to fill a slot is ignore the second skill or, rarely, just load the slot backwards and assume a failure.

    I wonder if the bug was fixed for non-event shuttles but somehow not fixed for event shuttles? From the post-“fix” testing that was done (albeit not nearly as rigorously as the testing beforehand), shuttles seemed to be fixed but I don’t think that was checked for event shuttles. If Tuxedo Nog-bearing shuttles failed at an unexpected rate, maybe the problem isn’t as fixed as DB would like to believe?

    No, there will never be compensation. The most that would happen would be a pile of sorrytons, maybe a purple crew or voyage revive token...anything else would be a pipe dream.
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    Jim SteeleJim Steele ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    *yawn* this old chestnut again. The reported stats affect everyone equally. I just make sure any shuttle slots with the AND option actually have crew with both skills.

    Either-way, I have so many holograms its been fairly easy to do well in them and top 1000 just depends on how may boosts I have at my disposal.

    Jim
    DB: Do Better
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    Cranky (SC) Cranky (SC) ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    Jim Steele wrote: »
    *yawn* this old chestnut again. The reported stats affect everyone equally. I just make sure any shuttle slots with the AND option actually have crew with both skills.

    And hopefully in the right order too, or else the displayed percentage may or may not be correct.
    Dirk Gunderson wrote: »
    No, there will never be compensation. The most that would happen would be a pile of sorrytons, maybe a purple crew or voyage revive token...anything else would be a pipe dream.

    I think DB could offer something like 10,000 merits to cover wasted transmissions and maybe a token gift as an apology, a single gold citation or something. Good perceived value to the players, but zero, or very little, actual cost or loss to DB.
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