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Does the IAmPicardTool violate the Ts & Cs?

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  • Quit GameQuit Game ✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    Paladin 27 wrote: »
    Before you folks blindly judge and throw accusations, I'd invite you to visit the tool and try it first.
    Ren~ wrote: »
    Paladin 27 wrote: »
    Ren~ wrote: »
    Paladin 27 wrote: »
    stuff

    All I see is that you have decided that it wasn't right to use it because you don't use it. That's a very weird way to provide an answer. You're better than that. I suggest you either give it a try in spite of your preconceptions or live and let live.

    But ultimately, there is no right or wrong on that matter. Customer support said it was abiding the rules and that's all we need to know.

    The main reason I’ve never used the app is because I don’t make it a habit of giving out passwords to any third parties.

    Regarding the customer support exchange, is that an actual DB is employee or one of the outsourced support reps. If it’s one of the outsourced reps, I think we’ve seen plenty of examples where they don’t know what they are talking about.

    It's on github and under a GPL 3.0 license, that would be a very poor way to propagate malware. If you want you can clone the repository and write your own "login" script, but I doubt it would be safer than what they're doing right now.

    Agreed, it's open source. Anyone can look at the changes and the source code, it's not malware. But if you are so paranoid as @Paladin 27 then maybe you could use a secondary account to test out the program or you don't even need to install anything, test the web version.

    I may or may not have just done that with an account I don't actively play anymore. I don't believe i misrepresented any of the voyage or gauntlet functionality.

    As an example for gauntlet, I would suspect it takes someone using the Timelines iphone app about 15-25 minutes total over the course of a day to play 6-7 gauntlet rounds.

    I would suspect it takes someone about 5-10 minutes a day on the iampicard app.

    That may be a reason to use the application to some, but to me its a shortcut to doing things the way they are intended by the developers.

    You save less than you claim here. The animations aren't that long. And btw, you would need to start up the program and your computer every time. How much saved time would that be in the end?
  • Peachtree RexPeachtree Rex ✭✭✭✭✭
    Paladin 27 wrote: »
    At one point, he featured a screen shot of a CS agent giving approval of his tool. I can't seem to locate it anymore.

    However, everything the app does requires human intervention. There is no long term automation involved.

    I think it is also horrible precedent to allow game actions to be taken outside of the DB user interface. If we expect DB to be able to track down people using long term automation programs, they first need to be able to make sure that all actions are taken through their program. The fact people can take any sort of game action without using DB's software is really worrying to me, and I don't know why any developer would allow it.

    (Emphasis Mine)

    This is misleading. The application bypasses the front end application and directly invokes the back end APIs. That is still DB's software. Lots of games, especially ones as in depth and complicated as this, provide support for 3rd party add-ons. Why WOULDN'T DB want people in the community to grow their game and make certain it easier to use? I agree that there are aspects that DB would not automated (scheduling when to send out shuttles, for example), but other applications are completely benign.

    You are part of a fleet that has a private bot that you call fleet bot. You even advertise it on your wiki page. Then you hypocritically come here and talk bad about a public tool that is open source. May I ask you, has DB approved your fleet bot?
    The wiki page: https://stt.wiki/wiki/Fleet_Second_Star_To_The_Right

    I think this has been cleared up in the thread, but you have completely misconstrued what I posted.
  • Paladin 27Paladin 27 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Amphistaff wrote: »
    Automating game play means you as the player are not going through all the motions to play the game. If iampicard does any action for you in the game (so much as moving your mouse a pixel) then technically it's automating.

    It recommends the best crew mixture for voyages and Gauntlet. It does not run the voyages or gauntlet for you. You still have to make the decisions on all the dilemmas. You still have to recall the ship before it runs out of antimatter. You still have to pick your matches in the gauntlet. Doesn’t really automate anything. It just makes suggestions

    How many clicks/taps does it take per gauntlet match in the user interface. I think there is one for find opponent, one for choosing the opponent, one for choosing your crew, one for starting the match, then you skip the animation, then 1-2 clicks to claim your rewards. That is all reduced to 1 click in iampicard.

    That’s without the fact that it also extracts every possible matchup into a calculator and sorts the list so the highest percentage matchup is marked and sorted to the top.

    Just the reduction of 5-7 clicks into 1 is the definition of a small macro, I’ve seen them created in excel for less.
  • And the simplest solution is to ask the creator to put in a time delay so it matches the animations in the app. There. Job done.
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  • Althea BiermontAlthea Biermont ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    We will find out if it violates the TOS soon enough. If they start banning a big chunk of the whales and they disappear from the leaderboards then we’ll know that it does.

    I somehow don’t see that happening though
  • Seems like we should wait for the DB to weigh in on this, but from the communications it seems to me like they are focused on weekly event automation making it super difficult to rank in the top 1000. This tool doesn't do that for you, and being a player since the first month of the games release I can say over the last 5 or 6 months it has become increasingly difficult to rank.
  • AmphistaffAmphistaff ✭✭✭✭✭
    Paladin 27 wrote: »
    Amphistaff wrote: »
    Automating game play means you as the player are not going through all the motions to play the game. If iampicard does any action for you in the game (so much as moving your mouse a pixel) then technically it's automating.

    It recommends the best crew mixture for voyages and Gauntlet. It does not run the voyages or gauntlet for you. You still have to make the decisions on all the dilemmas. You still have to recall the ship before it runs out of antimatter. You still have to pick your matches in the gauntlet. Doesn’t really automate anything. It just makes suggestions

    How many clicks/taps does it take per gauntlet match in the user interface. I think there is one for find opponent, one for choosing the opponent, one for choosing your crew, one for starting the match, then you skip the animation, then 1-2 clicks to claim your rewards. That is all reduced to 1 click in iampicard.

    That’s without the fact that it also extracts every possible matchup into a calculator and sorts the list so the highest percentage matchup is marked and sorted to the top.

    Just the reduction of 5-7 clicks into 1 is the definition of a small macro, I’ve seen them created in excel for less.

    This is exactly my point. I don't have any issue with the tool and I know it's very helpful. I'm simply stating that if we're going to forswear all automation then this tool has to go as it clearly automates actions. If iampicard does anything for you in game, it's automation. If it simply looked at your crew and made suggestions for things or let you sort/filter for you to make your own decisions it's not automation. As soon as it so much as navigates a screen for you, it's automated something.
  • PenguinJimPenguinJim ✭✭✭✭✭
    Based on what I've heard and read about the IAmPicard tool, I just (only just!) lean towards the "it's fine" camp. It just barely sticks its little toe into the gray area, IMO. I don't use it myself (I like to do the numbers in my head!), but I don't begrudge others using it.

    But Paladin 27 is absolutely, 100% right to question it and keep it in discussion, rather than blindly accepting it. It's well worth discussing where the line on automation should be drawn, and how much a tool should be allowed to do to help. (And I've also very much enjoyed reading the comments on both sides here!)

    What I would really like to see is for Shan to confirm that this tool continues to not break the DB T&Cs, as I think that would give peace of mind to many people here.
  • DavideBooksDavideBooks ✭✭✭✭✭
    My prediction is that no one will be banned for it, but they will avoid any official response so they are not accused of cherry picking (right or wrong) when they ban people for more serious infractions.

    I don't personally care one way or t'other about the program. I don't see that it hurts me, but I don't use it because I am not a very trusting person and won't give my password to a computer program. I don't even let Google remember my passwords.
  • A single minor tweak of the tool would prevent all the massive hysteria around this subject, and I'm sure if DB were concerned they could have a quiet word with the creator, who they have already had considerable contact with. Quite frankly, we are only talking about the Gauntlet function here anyway. The Voyages part is really silly to get uptight about, it gives you a couple of options (one of which requires you to use the app to unfreeze crew anyway) and doesn't calculate the Voyages the way I wish it to, and neither does it do it for others from what I understand.

    Whichever way you want to look at it, and I suppose you could come to the conclusion that bypassing a couple of clicks in a minor part of the game is indeed cheating, it sure as hell pales into significance around the use of macros in events. When many individuals can program a bot to do ALL the work required for them to hit top spot, for HOURS ON END - FOUR DAYS STRAIGHT, yeah. And get massive rewards for doing so. I think this has become a witch hunt designed to divert attention away from the use of macros.
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  • IronagedaveIronagedave ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    I have been for a long time curious about the app. I think my main sticking points have been providing ID and password and the gauntlet function. The latter may be slightly quashed but the former will likely remain.

    I realise the intention of this app is for good, but websites et al have a habit of being targeted for cyber attack. One would be very naive to think the app could not be abused in some fashion against it's original intended use.

    However part of me is surprised by the app as it does bring things a heck of a lot closer to automation (some already argue that it does) but for me I may be old fashioned in taking the moral high ground, but I find it against the Star Trek way of using ways to eliminate the human factor.

    Many will argue that you still make the decisions but how many are you reliant on this app for?

    That being said I don't condone the actions of users for it's intended use - it's not like it can predict how to get a Caretaker or two. I would however prefer it if the possibility exists for DB and the developer of this app collaborate in finding a way of it being integrated into the game. From the sounds of it is a fairly straightforward written program. Therefore everybody has it all on a level playing field and through the game app itself.
    [was on Sabbatical/Hiatus] Currently a trialist at Galaxy SquadronSTAY SAFE and KBO
  • Tbh , the tool cuts down on a lot of the tedium of the game. And as it currently stands, this game is becoming boring. The only thing keeping me playing is the fact that i put money into it.
  • Matt_DeckerMatt_Decker ✭✭✭✭✭
    My two cents:
    1. Any tool that helps you calculate the odds of winning or of measuring your crew against a certain action so that you can figure out the best decision to make sounds perfectly fine to me. stt.wiki, spreadsheets, or a "bot" that calculates and gives recommendations would all be fine under that definition.
    2. Any tool that accesses the game and plays it for you -- even if you have to click or tap from within the tool -- seems like a way of getting around DB's user interface and is therefore inappropriate. Dealing with the user interface is part of playing the game. And obviously, anything that automates game play is inappropriate.
    Fleet: Starship Trista
    Captain Level: 95
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    Unique Crew Immortalized: 525
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  • Great discussion. My thoughts: (1) the tool is awesome. I see it more as an alternate user interface rather than a macro. It doed not automate any decision based on a predetermined algoryhtm (example of what would IMO, something that automated taking the rightmost voyage option in a dilemma as soon as it triggered or a script for an arena battle). As for the "multiple clicks" some have raised, I do not how it works, but is clicking for you or just bypassing the screens and going to the part of the code for the screen in the standard interface where you actually make the decision? I think this just presents options and does math for you. (2) the ToS uses quotes around the operative words like macro. This typically means in a legal document the word as used in the document has a different meaning than in the dictionary. Basically, it is a macro if DB says it is a macro. And even if it is a macro per Webster's, it isn't a macro if DB doesn't think it is. For this great tool, they know about it, they do not appear to oppose it, and because the player must interact with the game at each decision point I would say it does not violate the ToS if DB asked me. (3) Saving time. IMO DB is not opposed to moving faster, it is opposed to automated decision making. I do not think they care if you are bypassing animations. I also think it is OK for a tool to make a suggestion so long as you have to agree to the suggestion. Me personally, I like the voyage suggestion including frozen crew. I use it to manage who is in the freezer. I also rarely let the tool launch because I tend to tweak the list. I find I have a fair number of options that only shave a few minutes off the voyage length so I might swap some out because I would rather have them for shuttles. In other words I am playing the game not having a machine play it for me which is what I think DB wants. (4) a lot of folks use this particular tool, if DB decides it is a bad thing, I suspect they would warn the community specifically about it before starting to ban people (5) DB is unlikely to make a formal announcement saying this is OK to use. They do not have to and doing so might constrain future options not just for this tool but for others that claim to be similar.
  • IvanstoneIvanstone ✭✭✭✭✭
    The one time I did an extremely long voyage, the game got stuck at multiple dilemmas. Its probably an issue with the default game. This tool allowed me to choose my dilemmas and my voyage kept on going.
    VIP 13 - 310 Crew Slots - 1055 Immortals
  • Althea BiermontAlthea Biermont ✭✭✭✭✭
    My two cents:

    Any tool that accesses the game and plays it for you -- even if you have to click or tap from within the tool -- seems like a way of getting around DB's user interface and is therefore inappropriate. Dealing with the user interface is part of playing the game. And obviously, anything that automates game play is inappropriate.

    I would say that obviously it isn't since it's been given the approval by DB :)

  • My two cents:

    Any tool that accesses the game and plays it for you -- even if you have to click or tap from within the tool -- seems like a way of getting around DB's user interface and is therefore inappropriate. Dealing with the user interface is part of playing the game. And obviously, anything that automates game play is inappropriate.

    I would say that obviously it isn't since it's been given the approval by DB :)

    DB approved something a while back that has very little to do with all the new and „enhanced“ stuff the app offers now. So just lets wait until we hear back from DB in this thread.
    •SSR Delta Flyers•
  • Matt_DeckerMatt_Decker ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2018
    My two cents:

    Any tool that accesses the game and plays it for you -- even if you have to click or tap from within the tool -- seems like a way of getting around DB's user interface and is therefore inappropriate. Dealing with the user interface is part of playing the game. And obviously, anything that automates game play is inappropriate.

    I would say that obviously it isn't since it's been given the approval by DB :)

    tumblr_mt2towtWzG1s4y4qno6_250.gif

    Fleet: Starship Trista
    Captain Level: 95
    VIP Level: 12
    Unique Crew Immortalized: 525
    Collections Completed: Vulcan, Ferengi, Borg, Romulan, Cardassian, Uncommon, Rare, Veteran, Common, Engineered, Physician, Innovator, Inspiring, Diplomat, Jury Rigger, Gauntlet Legends
  • Data1001Data1001 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well said, Frank.


    Could you please continue the petty bickering? I find it most intriguing.
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