All I see is that you have decided that it wasn't right to use it because you don't use it. That's a very weird way to provide an answer. You're better than that. I suggest you either give it a try in spite of your preconceptions or live and let live.
But ultimately, there is no right or wrong on that matter. Customer support said it was abiding the rules and that's all we need to know.
The main reason I’ve never used the app is because I don’t make it a habit of giving out passwords to any third parties.
Regarding the customer support exchange, is that an actual DB is employee or one of the outsourced support reps. If it’s one of the outsourced reps, I think we’ve seen plenty of examples where they don’t know what they are talking about.
It's on github and under a GPL 3.0 license, that would be a very poor way to propagate malware. If you want you can clone the repository and write your own "login" script, but I doubt it would be safer than what they're doing right now.
Agreed, it's open source. Anyone can look at the changes and the source code, it's not malware. But if you are so paranoid as @Paladin 27 then maybe you could use a secondary account to test out the program or you don't even need to install anything, test the web version.
I may or may not have just done that with an account I don't actively play anymore. I don't believe i misrepresented any of the voyage or gauntlet functionality.
As an example for gauntlet, I would suspect it takes someone using the Timelines iphone app about 15-25 minutes total over the course of a day to play 6-7 gauntlet rounds.
I would suspect it takes someone about 5-10 minutes a day on the iampicard app.
That may be a reason to use the application to some, but to me its a shortcut to doing things the way they are intended by the developers.
You save less than you claim here. The animations aren't that long. And btw, you would need to start up the program and your computer every time. How much saved time would that be in the end?
At one point, he featured a screen shot of a CS agent giving approval of his tool. I can't seem to locate it anymore.
However, everything the app does requires human intervention. There is no long term automation involved.
I think it is also horrible precedent to allow game actions to be taken outside of the DB user interface. If we expect DB to be able to track down people using long term automation programs, they first need to be able to make sure that all actions are taken through their program. The fact people can take any sort of game action without using DB's software is really worrying to me, and I don't know why any developer would allow it.
(Emphasis Mine)
This is misleading. The application bypasses the front end application and directly invokes the back end APIs. That is still DB's software. Lots of games, especially ones as in depth and complicated as this, provide support for 3rd party add-ons. Why WOULDN'T DB want people in the community to grow their game and make certain it easier to use? I agree that there are aspects that DB would not automated (scheduling when to send out shuttles, for example), but other applications are completely benign.
You are part of a fleet that has a private bot that you call fleet bot. You even advertise it on your wiki page. Then you hypocritically come here and talk bad about a public tool that is open source. May I ask you, has DB approved your fleet bot?
The wiki page: https://stt.wiki/wiki/Fleet_Second_Star_To_The_Right
I think this has been cleared up in the thread, but you have completely misconstrued what I posted.
Automating game play means you as the player are not going through all the motions to play the game. If iampicard does any action for you in the game (so much as moving your mouse a pixel) then technically it's automating.
It recommends the best crew mixture for voyages and Gauntlet. It does not run the voyages or gauntlet for you. You still have to make the decisions on all the dilemmas. You still have to recall the ship before it runs out of antimatter. You still have to pick your matches in the gauntlet. Doesn’t really automate anything. It just makes suggestions
It does have one big drawback though. It becomes very easy and tempting to use merits to refresh the gauntlet. I’ve blown through a whole lot more merits than I wanted to.
I use the voyage estimator as a guide. Sometimes I swap crew out because I feel I'd prefer to focus on traits for a longer voyage, or that it's calculated the top two scores too highly and added variability to my voyage length. I use the codepen too. And the wiki. And my own spreadsheet which I have shared with everyone else that can also give them (I believe) a competitive edge on managing crew slots. There's a lot of information sharing going on and that's what a community is about.
As far as automation goes, the gauntlet calculator gives me an edge that other tools can help with also. But it's not a game breaker because it's a matter of seconds, at most a few minutes. Compared to the four days straight that macro users in events use to achieve astronomical VP scores and much greater rewards than a few merits here and there, it's really small fry and I do believe that there's something else going on here.
Muddying the waters I think it's called. Calling other players cheats for using a DB sanctioned tool that may save them a few seconds is hiding the fact that macro use in events is absolutely massive and can really screw up a major part of the game and cost DB a lot of money.
Muddying the waters to hide massive cheating, or make it look like it's not so bad, or that other players do it too therefore it's okay.
No. Macro use in events is cheating on a massive scale. Using iampicard is a DB sanctioned tool for managing crew.
Automating game play means you as the player are not going through all the motions to play the game. If iampicard does any action for you in the game (so much as moving your mouse a pixel) then technically it's automating.
It recommends the best crew mixture for voyages and Gauntlet. It does not run the voyages or gauntlet for you. You still have to make the decisions on all the dilemmas. You still have to recall the ship before it runs out of antimatter. You still have to pick your matches in the gauntlet. Doesn’t really automate anything. It just makes suggestions
How many clicks/taps does it take per gauntlet match in the user interface. I think there is one for find opponent, one for choosing the opponent, one for choosing your crew, one for starting the match, then you skip the animation, then 1-2 clicks to claim your rewards. That is all reduced to 1 click in iampicard.
That’s without the fact that it also extracts every possible matchup into a calculator and sorts the list so the highest percentage matchup is marked and sorted to the top.
Just the reduction of 5-7 clicks into 1 is the definition of a small macro, I’ve seen them created in excel for less.
We will find out if it violates the TOS soon enough. If they start banning a big chunk of the whales and they disappear from the leaderboards then we’ll know that it does.
Seems like we should wait for the DB to weigh in on this, but from the communications it seems to me like they are focused on weekly event automation making it super difficult to rank in the top 1000. This tool doesn't do that for you, and being a player since the first month of the games release I can say over the last 5 or 6 months it has become increasingly difficult to rank.
Seems like we should wait for the DB to weigh in on this, but from the communications it seems to me like they are focused on weekly event automation making it super difficult to rank in the top 1000. This tool doesn't do that for you, and being a player since the first month of the games release I can say over the last 5 or 6 months it has become increasingly difficult to rank.
It's not just macro users, the userbase has grown, whales rank with 2 or more accounts and we are still stuck with rank 1k. Just imagine how difficult it must be for new players trying to rank in any event. At this point, I would say that unless the new players open up their wallets, they can forget ever achieving rank 1k.
Automating game play means you as the player are not going through all the motions to play the game. If iampicard does any action for you in the game (so much as moving your mouse a pixel) then technically it's automating.
It recommends the best crew mixture for voyages and Gauntlet. It does not run the voyages or gauntlet for you. You still have to make the decisions on all the dilemmas. You still have to recall the ship before it runs out of antimatter. You still have to pick your matches in the gauntlet. Doesn’t really automate anything. It just makes suggestions
How many clicks/taps does it take per gauntlet match in the user interface. I think there is one for find opponent, one for choosing the opponent, one for choosing your crew, one for starting the match, then you skip the animation, then 1-2 clicks to claim your rewards. That is all reduced to 1 click in iampicard.
That’s without the fact that it also extracts every possible matchup into a calculator and sorts the list so the highest percentage matchup is marked and sorted to the top.
Just the reduction of 5-7 clicks into 1 is the definition of a small macro, I’ve seen them created in excel for less.
This is exactly my point. I don't have any issue with the tool and I know it's very helpful. I'm simply stating that if we're going to forswear all automation then this tool has to go as it clearly automates actions. If iampicard does anything for you in game, it's automation. If it simply looked at your crew and made suggestions for things or let you sort/filter for you to make your own decisions it's not automation. As soon as it so much as navigates a screen for you, it's automated something.
Based on what I've heard and read about the IAmPicard tool, I just (only just!) lean towards the "it's fine" camp. It just barely sticks its little toe into the gray area, IMO. I don't use it myself (I like to do the numbers in my head!), but I don't begrudge others using it.
But Paladin 27 is absolutely, 100% right to question it and keep it in discussion, rather than blindly accepting it. It's well worth discussing where the line on automation should be drawn, and how much a tool should be allowed to do to help. (And I've also very much enjoyed reading the comments on both sides here!)
What I would really like to see is for Shan to confirm that this tool continues to not break the DB T&Cs, as I think that would give peace of mind to many people here.
My prediction is that no one will be banned for it, but they will avoid any official response so they are not accused of cherry picking (right or wrong) when they ban people for more serious infractions.
I don't personally care one way or t'other about the program. I don't see that it hurts me, but I don't use it because I am not a very trusting person and won't give my password to a computer program. I don't even let Google remember my passwords.
A single minor tweak of the tool would prevent all the massive hysteria around this subject, and I'm sure if DB were concerned they could have a quiet word with the creator, who they have already had considerable contact with. Quite frankly, we are only talking about the Gauntlet function here anyway. The Voyages part is really silly to get uptight about, it gives you a couple of options (one of which requires you to use the app to unfreeze crew anyway) and doesn't calculate the Voyages the way I wish it to, and neither does it do it for others from what I understand.
Whichever way you want to look at it, and I suppose you could come to the conclusion that bypassing a couple of clicks in a minor part of the game is indeed cheating, it sure as hell pales into significance around the use of macros in events. When many individuals can program a bot to do ALL the work required for them to hit top spot, for HOURS ON END - FOUR DAYS STRAIGHT, yeah. And get massive rewards for doing so. I think this has become a witch hunt designed to divert attention away from the use of macros.
Wow - I wasn’t expecting this thread to be so popular! I posted it before I went to bed last night and have woken up to some interestesting points of view.
Firstly, I want to thank everybody that voiced an opinion in this thread, and also for keeping the discussion civil.
Secondly, I would like to express my thanks to @TekmanRO for creating IAmPicard and for everyone else who creates tools for STT such as the Wiki and Discord bots. I would like to think that the guys at DB are proud that their game has inspired others to spend time creating tools and resources, most of which are very innovative.
Finally, my thoughts after reading your comments:
My initial concern was that DB were going to come down hard on any and all third party tools what with all the recent talk about macro usage.
In light that DB have given their blessing to to tool previously, I plan to keep using it. The moment that DB change their stance on the app, I will stop using it.
I trust that Tekman and the others who develop the tool will adher to DBs Ts&Cs and continue to seek guidance from them when they are unsure, and I am re-assured that they have already done this previously.
I mentioned in my initial post, and others have re-stated that IAmPicard doesn’t really automate gameplay. Paladin’s concerns about time-shaving seem legitimate enough a concern however I don’t personally feel that it’s a big enough of an impact for someone to take advantage of. Think of the tool as a glorified spreadsheet, just with access to your account.
If you have never used it, and don’t care to try, please don’t be too judgemental on those that do. I, personally, am not trying to cheat. I don’t want to cheat, and I don’t feel like I am cheating. Again, the minute I feel like I am, or the app introducing something that I feel has gone too far... I will stop using.
I have been for a long time curious about the app. I think my main sticking points have been providing ID and password and the gauntlet function. The latter may be slightly quashed but the former will likely remain.
I realise the intention of this app is for good, but websites et al have a habit of being targeted for cyber attack. One would be very naive to think the app could not be abused in some fashion against it's original intended use.
However part of me is surprised by the app as it does bring things a heck of a lot closer to automation (some already argue that it does) but for me I may be old fashioned in taking the moral high ground, but I find it against the Star Trek way of using ways to eliminate the human factor.
Many will argue that you still make the decisions but how many are you reliant on this app for?
That being said I don't condone the actions of users for it's intended use - it's not like it can predict how to get a Caretaker or two. I would however prefer it if the possibility exists for DB and the developer of this app collaborate in finding a way of it being integrated into the game. From the sounds of it is a fairly straightforward written program. Therefore everybody has it all on a level playing field and through the game app itself.
[was on Sabbatical/Hiatus] Currently a trialist at Galaxy SquadronSTAY SAFE and KBO
Seems there's a lot to breakdown here. First the original question; does it violate ToS? That, to me, doesn't matter because DB has made an exception. It's been shown in three ways - Being stickied on DB's forums, being given the OK by a CS rep (and further confirmed when asked about specific features), and as SilverRose pointed out, the voicing in the CS screenshot all but confirms that someone above the CS rep's pay grade took a look and not only signed off, but thanked him for his efforts.
On the topic of automation; the voyage function goes further than the gauntlet function. "Calculate crew" + "Send voyage" are 2 button presses that cause a dozen or more actions within the game. Is that an advantage? Yes and no. Many players claim that the tool's formula for choosing crew is not always optimal, nor what they would choose to do. Is it a macro? By the letter of the definition, yes. Is that what DB is trying to combat? Doubtful. Not only have they made an exception for this tool, but there's a massive difference between the convenience of a minute that isn't even optimal in many cases and people macroing or botting in a competition for days at a time in a manner that humans cannot match.
Is the gauntlet function a macro? Yes. From the game client you must click four times to initiate a battle while you can do so through the tool with 1 click. Is that an advantage? Yes, one available to everyone. But I would couch that by pointing out that the ability to analyze win percentages has been available through other means e.g. chat bots on discord servers, and is something that the player can calculate on their own. The only advantage introduced is one of saving time, which I hardly find unfair considering this is a tool which DB has already sanctioned and everyone has a chance to use.
Sorry if this ruffles feathers, but I see a lot of "I don't use it, but I don't want anyone else to benefit from it." It's your prerogative to do things old school, but then there's really no reason to talk about competitive advantage when you eschew (hi Rex) an open source, sanctioned-by-DB tool that's available to everyone.
I think it boils down to not seeing the forest for the trees. I've sat down in front of my computer for 70+ hours of play time over a skirmish weekend before and gone head to head with macro users (some in my own fleet), so I understand the frustration around the topic. But taking it out on community resources is not the way to go. By the letter of the law, the tool performs some macros. Thankfully, DB understands the spirit of the law in this case and has made an exception for an incredible tool that, while saving the average player time, doesn't step on the toes of those who know they can set their voyages better than a formula.
Our engineers and designers took the time to assess the situation and looked at how such programs were being used in our game.
Thank him in spending such effort in putting this together.
I think that's great. Keep up the good work.
If DB is supportive of one of the finest community tools we have, then I am too.
Tbh , the tool cuts down on a lot of the tedium of the game. And as it currently stands, this game is becoming boring. The only thing keeping me playing is the fact that i put money into it.
All I see is that you have decided that it wasn't right to use it because you don't use it. That's a very weird way to provide an answer. You're better than that. I suggest you either give it a try in spite of your preconceptions or live and let live.
But ultimately, there is no right or wrong on that matter. Customer support said it was abiding the rules and that's all we need to know.
The main reason I’ve never used the app is because I don’t make it a habit of giving out passwords to any third parties.
Regarding the customer support exchange, is that an actual DB is employee or one of the outsourced support reps. If it’s one of the outsourced reps, I think we’ve seen plenty of examples where they don’t know what they are talking about.
It's on github and under a GPL 3.0 license, that would be a very poor way to propagate malware. If you want you can clone the repository and write your own "login" script, but I doubt it would be safer than what they're doing right now.
Agreed, it's open source. Anyone can look at the changes and the source code, it's not malware. But if you are so paranoid as @Paladin 27 then maybe you could use a secondary account to test out the program or you don't even need to install anything, test the web version.
I may or may not have just done that with an account I don't actively play anymore. I don't believe i misrepresented any of the voyage or gauntlet functionality.
As an example for gauntlet, I would suspect it takes someone using the Timelines iphone app about 15-25 minutes total over the course of a day to play 6-7 gauntlet rounds.
I would suspect it takes someone about 5-10 minutes a day on the iampicard app.
That may be a reason to use the application to some, but to me its a shortcut to doing things the way they are intended by the developers.
I can also play skirmish rounds faster using my PC playing on Steam, because I'm faster with the mouse/keyboard interface and I'm limited only by DB's server speed, not my phone's processing speed. Is the Steam interface cheating? It still requires the same number of mouse clicks, and over the course of a skirmish event it saves me quite a bit of time (and perhaps gives me more patience, thus potentially ranking better).
Further, regarding small time saving increments, I currently have an old phone that was not a top end model when I purchased it, and am planning to buy a new one soon. Should the game development be adjusted to slow everyone's gameplay to the slowest possible device that can run it? Just because there is a small increment of time savings does not automatically indicate an unfair advantage.
From reading this thread, it's become clear that most people don't clearly have an understanding of what "automation" or "macros" really are and are not
Any tool that helps you calculate the odds of winning or of measuring your crew against a certain action so that you can figure out the best decision to make sounds perfectly fine to me. stt.wiki, spreadsheets, or a "bot" that calculates and gives recommendations would all be fine under that definition.
Any tool that accesses the game and plays it for you -- even if you have to click or tap from within the tool -- seems like a way of getting around DB's user interface and is therefore inappropriate. Dealing with the user interface is part of playing the game. And obviously, anything that automates game play is inappropriate.
Tbh , the tool cuts down on a lot of the tedium of the game. And as it currently stands, this game is becoming boring. The only thing keeping me playing is the fact that i put money into it.
Using a mouse macro to automate building galaxy recipes also would cut down a lot on the tedium of the game. When you make something so boring to do and require that it be done hundreds or thousands of times for your desired result that begs for automation.
The real problem has always been that events are too repetitive. Fixing the gameplay of events is the true solution rather than trying to combat macro use.
Great discussion. My thoughts: (1) the tool is awesome. I see it more as an alternate user interface rather than a macro. It doed not automate any decision based on a predetermined algoryhtm (example of what would IMO, something that automated taking the rightmost voyage option in a dilemma as soon as it triggered or a script for an arena battle). As for the "multiple clicks" some have raised, I do not how it works, but is clicking for you or just bypassing the screens and going to the part of the code for the screen in the standard interface where you actually make the decision? I think this just presents options and does math for you. (2) the ToS uses quotes around the operative words like macro. This typically means in a legal document the word as used in the document has a different meaning than in the dictionary. Basically, it is a macro if DB says it is a macro. And even if it is a macro per Webster's, it isn't a macro if DB doesn't think it is. For this great tool, they know about it, they do not appear to oppose it, and because the player must interact with the game at each decision point I would say it does not violate the ToS if DB asked me. (3) Saving time. IMO DB is not opposed to moving faster, it is opposed to automated decision making. I do not think they care if you are bypassing animations. I also think it is OK for a tool to make a suggestion so long as you have to agree to the suggestion. Me personally, I like the voyage suggestion including frozen crew. I use it to manage who is in the freezer. I also rarely let the tool launch because I tend to tweak the list. I find I have a fair number of options that only shave a few minutes off the voyage length so I might swap some out because I would rather have them for shuttles. In other words I am playing the game not having a machine play it for me which is what I think DB wants. (4) a lot of folks use this particular tool, if DB decides it is a bad thing, I suspect they would warn the community specifically about it before starting to ban people (5) DB is unlikely to make a formal announcement saying this is OK to use. They do not have to and doing so might constrain future options not just for this tool but for others that claim to be similar.
The one time I did an extremely long voyage, the game got stuck at multiple dilemmas. Its probably an issue with the default game. This tool allowed me to choose my dilemmas and my voyage kept on going.
Is the gauntlet function a macro? Yes. From the game client you must click four times to initiate a battle while you can do so through the tool with 1 click. Is that an advantage? Yes, one available to everyone. But I would couch that by pointing out that the ability to analyze win percentages has been available through other means e.g. chat bots on discord servers, and is something that the player can calculate on their own. The only advantage introduced is one of saving time, which I hardly find unfair considering this is a tool which DB has already sanctioned and everyone has a chance to use.
Sorry if this ruffles feathers, but I see a lot of "I don't use it, but I don't want anyone else to benefit from it." It's your prerogative to do things old school, but then there's really no reason to talk about competitive advantage when you eschew (hi Rex) an open source, sanctioned-by-DB tool that's available to everyone.
To me, this is kind of like car windows.
Older cars had windows that would go up and down with a hand crank. Then they introduced power windows that worked with the press of a button. You could choose to use the older model and turn a crank 5-6 rotations to lower the window or you could opt for the new model and push a single button to do the same. Someone shouldn't get upset with someone for pushing the button to open the window just because they opted to continue to use the crank.
Any tool that accesses the game and plays it for you -- even if you have to click or tap from within the tool -- seems like a way of getting around DB's user interface and is therefore inappropriate. Dealing with the user interface is part of playing the game. And obviously, anything that automates game play is inappropriate.
I would say that obviously it isn't since it's been given the approval by DB
Any tool that accesses the game and plays it for you -- even if you have to click or tap from within the tool -- seems like a way of getting around DB's user interface and is therefore inappropriate. Dealing with the user interface is part of playing the game. And obviously, anything that automates game play is inappropriate.
I would say that obviously it isn't since it's been given the approval by DB
DB approved something a while back that has very little to do with all the new and „enhanced“ stuff the app offers now. So just lets wait until we hear back from DB in this thread.
Any tool that accesses the game and plays it for you -- even if you have to click or tap from within the tool -- seems like a way of getting around DB's user interface and is therefore inappropriate. Dealing with the user interface is part of playing the game. And obviously, anything that automates game play is inappropriate.
I would say that obviously it isn't since it's been given the approval by DB
Any tool that accesses the game and plays it for you -- even if you have to click or tap from within the tool -- seems like a way of getting around DB's user interface and is therefore inappropriate. Dealing with the user interface is part of playing the game. And obviously, anything that automates game play is inappropriate.
I would say that obviously it isn't since it's been given the approval by DB
DB approved something a while back that has very little to do with all the new and „enhanced“ stuff the app offers now. So just lets wait until we hear back from DB in this thread.
Just curious here...are you assuming that Shan doesn't know how to do her job? As I posted in the 11th post of this thread, the link to this tool is found in the 3rd announcement of the Ready Room subforum and she has already moderated the 12th post in this thread so obviously she has seen mine. If this tool was in violation of DB's TOS (or Ts and Cs if you prefer) wouldn't you think that she would have already deleted the announcement and contacted the creator?
Couple of small thoughts:
1) the tool, with the voyage calculator and very early framework of gauntlet functions is the version viewed & approved by DB earlier this year. The github source is open, as is the changelog, as is the 45 previous versions with detailed lists of additions and fixes for each iteration.
2) This year in Boston I spoke to *two* DB staff members who complemented the tool and lauded the creativity of the playerbase to come up with neat stuff. They introduced us to GoTA players who had done similar. They met Siguard, who is one of the stewards of the Wiki, and thanked him for continuing to serve the community. In fact, did you know when he was at DB, Nod himself would edit the wiki in his spare time, including official artwork no one had access to, as well as all the achievements and what the actual rewards were when the knowledge wasn't listed anywhere else. DB is very pro-player and pro-community development, as long as it is within TOS guidelines and doesn't harm the integrity of the game.
3) I doubt DB will actually comment in this thread. They don't normally comment in threads asking for their comment. Their silence, in addition to the remaining sticky post, will have to serve as such.
Which won't satisfy a part of the crowd here, which brings us to
4) Players in this thread, last week, sent a ticket into DB and PM'd Shan asking for the tool to be reviewed.
So, my .02, those who have made up their minds will continue to do so regardless of the outcome of anything. Jon Radoff himself could show up wearing an iampicard t-shirt and tell us how it cured his nasty cold he had for 2 weeks. Folks would still say it is cheating, naughty, violates things, etc etc. Those people will not have their viewpoints changed because they simply don't want them changed.
So, to those reading this, simply stop trying to change their viewpoint. Continue to enjoy the tool and the game how you see fit, because you are the only one playing your game. Don't worry about anyone else. Support the community as you always have and the community will continue to give back awesome stuff such as this.
Comments
You save less than you claim here. The animations aren't that long. And btw, you would need to start up the program and your computer every time. How much saved time would that be in the end?
I think this has been cleared up in the thread, but you have completely misconstrued what I posted.
It recommends the best crew mixture for voyages and Gauntlet. It does not run the voyages or gauntlet for you. You still have to make the decisions on all the dilemmas. You still have to recall the ship before it runs out of antimatter. You still have to pick your matches in the gauntlet. Doesn’t really automate anything. It just makes suggestions
It does have one big drawback though. It becomes very easy and tempting to use merits to refresh the gauntlet. I’ve blown through a whole lot more merits than I wanted to.
As far as automation goes, the gauntlet calculator gives me an edge that other tools can help with also. But it's not a game breaker because it's a matter of seconds, at most a few minutes. Compared to the four days straight that macro users in events use to achieve astronomical VP scores and much greater rewards than a few merits here and there, it's really small fry and I do believe that there's something else going on here.
Muddying the waters I think it's called. Calling other players cheats for using a DB sanctioned tool that may save them a few seconds is hiding the fact that macro use in events is absolutely massive and can really screw up a major part of the game and cost DB a lot of money.
Muddying the waters to hide massive cheating, or make it look like it's not so bad, or that other players do it too therefore it's okay.
No. Macro use in events is cheating on a massive scale. Using iampicard is a DB sanctioned tool for managing crew.
Totally different things.
Check out our website to find out more:
https://wiki.tenforwardloungers.com/
How many clicks/taps does it take per gauntlet match in the user interface. I think there is one for find opponent, one for choosing the opponent, one for choosing your crew, one for starting the match, then you skip the animation, then 1-2 clicks to claim your rewards. That is all reduced to 1 click in iampicard.
That’s without the fact that it also extracts every possible matchup into a calculator and sorts the list so the highest percentage matchup is marked and sorted to the top.
Just the reduction of 5-7 clicks into 1 is the definition of a small macro, I’ve seen them created in excel for less.
Check out our website to find out more:
https://wiki.tenforwardloungers.com/
I somehow don’t see that happening though
It's not just macro users, the userbase has grown, whales rank with 2 or more accounts and we are still stuck with rank 1k. Just imagine how difficult it must be for new players trying to rank in any event. At this point, I would say that unless the new players open up their wallets, they can forget ever achieving rank 1k.
This is exactly my point. I don't have any issue with the tool and I know it's very helpful. I'm simply stating that if we're going to forswear all automation then this tool has to go as it clearly automates actions. If iampicard does anything for you in game, it's automation. If it simply looked at your crew and made suggestions for things or let you sort/filter for you to make your own decisions it's not automation. As soon as it so much as navigates a screen for you, it's automated something.
But Paladin 27 is absolutely, 100% right to question it and keep it in discussion, rather than blindly accepting it. It's well worth discussing where the line on automation should be drawn, and how much a tool should be allowed to do to help. (And I've also very much enjoyed reading the comments on both sides here!)
What I would really like to see is for Shan to confirm that this tool continues to not break the DB T&Cs, as I think that would give peace of mind to many people here.
I don't personally care one way or t'other about the program. I don't see that it hurts me, but I don't use it because I am not a very trusting person and won't give my password to a computer program. I don't even let Google remember my passwords.
Whichever way you want to look at it, and I suppose you could come to the conclusion that bypassing a couple of clicks in a minor part of the game is indeed cheating, it sure as hell pales into significance around the use of macros in events. When many individuals can program a bot to do ALL the work required for them to hit top spot, for HOURS ON END - FOUR DAYS STRAIGHT, yeah. And get massive rewards for doing so. I think this has become a witch hunt designed to divert attention away from the use of macros.
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Firstly, I want to thank everybody that voiced an opinion in this thread, and also for keeping the discussion civil.
Secondly, I would like to express my thanks to @TekmanRO for creating IAmPicard and for everyone else who creates tools for STT such as the Wiki and Discord bots. I would like to think that the guys at DB are proud that their game has inspired others to spend time creating tools and resources, most of which are very innovative.
Finally, my thoughts after reading your comments:
My initial concern was that DB were going to come down hard on any and all third party tools what with all the recent talk about macro usage.
In light that DB have given their blessing to to tool previously, I plan to keep using it. The moment that DB change their stance on the app, I will stop using it.
I trust that Tekman and the others who develop the tool will adher to DBs Ts&Cs and continue to seek guidance from them when they are unsure, and I am re-assured that they have already done this previously.
I mentioned in my initial post, and others have re-stated that IAmPicard doesn’t really automate gameplay. Paladin’s concerns about time-shaving seem legitimate enough a concern however I don’t personally feel that it’s a big enough of an impact for someone to take advantage of. Think of the tool as a glorified spreadsheet, just with access to your account.
If you have never used it, and don’t care to try, please don’t be too judgemental on those that do. I, personally, am not trying to cheat. I don’t want to cheat, and I don’t feel like I am cheating. Again, the minute I feel like I am, or the app introducing something that I feel has gone too far... I will stop using.
Thanks again to everyone who posted. LLAP
I realise the intention of this app is for good, but websites et al have a habit of being targeted for cyber attack. One would be very naive to think the app could not be abused in some fashion against it's original intended use.
However part of me is surprised by the app as it does bring things a heck of a lot closer to automation (some already argue that it does) but for me I may be old fashioned in taking the moral high ground, but I find it against the Star Trek way of using ways to eliminate the human factor.
Many will argue that you still make the decisions but how many are you reliant on this app for?
That being said I don't condone the actions of users for it's intended use - it's not like it can predict how to get a Caretaker or two. I would however prefer it if the possibility exists for DB and the developer of this app collaborate in finding a way of it being integrated into the game. From the sounds of it is a fairly straightforward written program. Therefore everybody has it all on a level playing field and through the game app itself.
On the topic of automation; the voyage function goes further than the gauntlet function. "Calculate crew" + "Send voyage" are 2 button presses that cause a dozen or more actions within the game. Is that an advantage? Yes and no. Many players claim that the tool's formula for choosing crew is not always optimal, nor what they would choose to do. Is it a macro? By the letter of the definition, yes. Is that what DB is trying to combat? Doubtful. Not only have they made an exception for this tool, but there's a massive difference between the convenience of a minute that isn't even optimal in many cases and people macroing or botting in a competition for days at a time in a manner that humans cannot match.
Is the gauntlet function a macro? Yes. From the game client you must click four times to initiate a battle while you can do so through the tool with 1 click. Is that an advantage? Yes, one available to everyone. But I would couch that by pointing out that the ability to analyze win percentages has been available through other means e.g. chat bots on discord servers, and is something that the player can calculate on their own. The only advantage introduced is one of saving time, which I hardly find unfair considering this is a tool which DB has already sanctioned and everyone has a chance to use.
Sorry if this ruffles feathers, but I see a lot of "I don't use it, but I don't want anyone else to benefit from it." It's your prerogative to do things old school, but then there's really no reason to talk about competitive advantage when you eschew (hi Rex) an open source, sanctioned-by-DB tool that's available to everyone.
I think it boils down to not seeing the forest for the trees. I've sat down in front of my computer for 70+ hours of play time over a skirmish weekend before and gone head to head with macro users (some in my own fleet), so I understand the frustration around the topic. But taking it out on community resources is not the way to go. By the letter of the law, the tool performs some macros. Thankfully, DB understands the spirit of the law in this case and has made an exception for an incredible tool that, while saving the average player time, doesn't step on the toes of those who know they can set their voyages better than a formula.
If DB is supportive of one of the finest community tools we have, then I am too.
I can also play skirmish rounds faster using my PC playing on Steam, because I'm faster with the mouse/keyboard interface and I'm limited only by DB's server speed, not my phone's processing speed. Is the Steam interface cheating? It still requires the same number of mouse clicks, and over the course of a skirmish event it saves me quite a bit of time (and perhaps gives me more patience, thus potentially ranking better).
Further, regarding small time saving increments, I currently have an old phone that was not a top end model when I purchased it, and am planning to buy a new one soon. Should the game development be adjusted to slow everyone's gameplay to the slowest possible device that can run it? Just because there is a small increment of time savings does not automatically indicate an unfair advantage.
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Using a mouse macro to automate building galaxy recipes also would cut down a lot on the tedium of the game. When you make something so boring to do and require that it be done hundreds or thousands of times for your desired result that begs for automation.
The real problem has always been that events are too repetitive. Fixing the gameplay of events is the true solution rather than trying to combat macro use.
To me, this is kind of like car windows.
Older cars had windows that would go up and down with a hand crank. Then they introduced power windows that worked with the press of a button. You could choose to use the older model and turn a crank 5-6 rotations to lower the window or you could opt for the new model and push a single button to do the same. Someone shouldn't get upset with someone for pushing the button to open the window just because they opted to continue to use the crank.
I would say that obviously it isn't since it's been given the approval by DB
DB approved something a while back that has very little to do with all the new and „enhanced“ stuff the app offers now. So just lets wait until we hear back from DB in this thread.
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Just curious here...are you assuming that Shan doesn't know how to do her job? As I posted in the 11th post of this thread, the link to this tool is found in the 3rd announcement of the Ready Room subforum and she has already moderated the 12th post in this thread so obviously she has seen mine. If this tool was in violation of DB's TOS (or Ts and Cs if you prefer) wouldn't you think that she would have already deleted the announcement and contacted the creator?
1) the tool, with the voyage calculator and very early framework of gauntlet functions is the version viewed & approved by DB earlier this year. The github source is open, as is the changelog, as is the 45 previous versions with detailed lists of additions and fixes for each iteration.
2) This year in Boston I spoke to *two* DB staff members who complemented the tool and lauded the creativity of the playerbase to come up with neat stuff. They introduced us to GoTA players who had done similar. They met Siguard, who is one of the stewards of the Wiki, and thanked him for continuing to serve the community. In fact, did you know when he was at DB, Nod himself would edit the wiki in his spare time, including official artwork no one had access to, as well as all the achievements and what the actual rewards were when the knowledge wasn't listed anywhere else. DB is very pro-player and pro-community development, as long as it is within TOS guidelines and doesn't harm the integrity of the game.
3) I doubt DB will actually comment in this thread. They don't normally comment in threads asking for their comment. Their silence, in addition to the remaining sticky post, will have to serve as such.
Which won't satisfy a part of the crowd here, which brings us to
4) Players in this thread, last week, sent a ticket into DB and PM'd Shan asking for the tool to be reviewed.
So, my .02, those who have made up their minds will continue to do so regardless of the outcome of anything. Jon Radoff himself could show up wearing an iampicard t-shirt and tell us how it cured his nasty cold he had for 2 weeks. Folks would still say it is cheating, naughty, violates things, etc etc. Those people will not have their viewpoints changed because they simply don't want them changed.
So, to those reading this, simply stop trying to change their viewpoint. Continue to enjoy the tool and the game how you see fit, because you are the only one playing your game. Don't worry about anyone else. Support the community as you always have and the community will continue to give back awesome stuff such as this.
Could you please continue the petty bickering? I find it most intriguing.
~ Data, ST:TNG "Haven"