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Do you think the iampicard crew management tool is fair and reasonable to allow?

PhantumPhantum ✭✭✭
in The Bridge
It seems to me that there are only a few angry voices against this tool which many captains find useful in presenting crew information.

Do you think the iampicard crew management tool is fair and reasonable to allow? 219 votes

Yes, iampicard is fair and does not unfairly advantage players
73%
ADM Fletcher [ET]Iknamur_Peachtree RexCaptain_WhoSSR BarkleySabine of AthensDane 'Glynn FuryCaptain DurfClonepbert[NDQ] ThunderDropPaGAWAeXo | das411[TUFG] Siguard[QH] SapkoTravis S McClainIvanstoneFredou[QH] Oxmyx 160 votes
No, iampicard automates the game and should be banned.
12%
XoiikuNS111111StygianCpt. Cavemant<G>e Roonis[S14]SirManiac[TLA] Capn Capacitor(HGH)ApolloCaptain Harlockcmdrworf[DD] Kirk Induced Self DestructionParker RobbinsDScottHewittWebberoni[7TW] Attack EyebrowsSpocky<TGE> CliffordVreenakTheComedianMúspell[BAD] 28 votes
I do not care. Leave it alone and focus on improving the game interface.
14%
uss_bonaventure[DC] Principia[NDQ] Joker41NAMRoadrunner {SG-66}Nick the friendly ex borgJim RaynorbarrydancerAuntieACommander SinclairHungry Dog DDMBrunt, FCA*Gorned*™(10F)GeekgirlelemnteeOdo MarmarosaJax2UF[IPA] Markas[Deleted User]Master FooS14 Bri 31 votes
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Comments

  • Roadrunner {SG-66}Roadrunner {SG-66} ✭✭✭
    I do not care. Leave it alone and focus on improving the game interface.
    Your second option is wrong. Doesn’t automate anything, only facilitate and does calculations for you. You still have to click just like the APP.

    Automate implies that I can leave it running all day and rake the rewards which is not true.
  • S14 Bri S14 Bri ✭✭✭
    I do not care. Leave it alone and focus on improving the game interface.
    Initially I was against it, but having researched it a bit, I really don’t care. The developers at DB would do well to emulate China’s style around technology: take the idea and blatantly copy it. Come on DB!
  • PhantumPhantum ✭✭✭
    Yes, iampicard is fair and does not unfairly advantage players
    Roadrunner {SG-66} wrote: »
    Your second option is wrong. Doesn’t automate anything, only facilitate and does calculations for you. You still have to click just like the APP.

    Automate implies that I can leave it running all day and rake the rewards which is not true.

    I agree with you but that was the opinion of those were complaining about IAP so I put it in for them. I wanted to see how important an issue it was to those in both camps and the community in general. The idea of the poll is to measure both opinions. Maybe if it is not an issue for 90% of players we can move on and leave it be.
  • DScottHewittDScottHewitt ✭✭✭✭✭
    No, iampicard automates the game and should be banned.
    I had no choice but to vote "NO!" As long as multiple people {looking at the other thread, I see I am far from the only one affected} cannot log into it and use it, it should not be used.

    Ready for fifty angry replies from those who can use it.............
    "The truth is like a lion; you don't have to defend it. Let it loose; it will defend itself."
  • DScottHewittDScottHewitt ✭✭✭✭✭
    No, iampicard automates the game and should be banned.
    Phantum wrote: »
    Roadrunner {SG-66} wrote: »
    Your second option is wrong. Doesn’t automate anything, only facilitate and does calculations for you. You still have to click just like the APP.

    Automate implies that I can leave it running all day and rake the rewards which is not true.

    I agree with you but that was the opinion of those were complaining about IAP so I put it in for them. I wanted to see how important an issue it was to those in both camps and the community in general. The idea of the poll is to measure both opinions. Maybe if it is not an issue for 90% of players we can move on and leave it be.

    How about a choice of "No, because not everyone can use it because of access issues" or something, then. I know it doesn't "automate" the game. But it DOES give the people who can use it better outcome in certain areas.
    "The truth is like a lion; you don't have to defend it. Let it loose; it will defend itself."
  • Bylo BandBylo Band ✭✭✭✭✭
    DScottHewitt wrote: »
    I had no choice but to vote "NO!" As long as multiple people {looking at the other thread, I see I am far from the only one affected} cannot log into it and use it, it should not be used.

    Ready for fifty angry replies from those who can use it.............

    I support you.
  • AviTrekAviTrek ✭✭✭✭✭
    This has nothing to do with fair/unfair, macro/not-macro. It's an unauthorized access to do their servers. Their security and legal team should be screaming to shut it down on those grounds.

    And now that he's asking for money to help with hosting, that's a super fine grey line between helping with hosting and making money off of DB's game. Look at what happened with fan films. When it was fans on their own making films, Paramount/CBS looked away, when there were multi-million dollar crowdfunding campaigns and replica sets being built on fan money and then rented out for profit, well Paramount/CBS has to step in and stop it. Now that iampicard is suddenly asking for money, DB has no choice but to step in and stop it.
  • 5000 Quatloos5000 Quatloos ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2019
    Yes, iampicard is fair and does not unfairly advantage players
    AviTrek wrote: »
    And now that he's asking for money to help with hosting, that's a super fine grey line between helping with hosting and making money off of DB's game.

    A quick perusal of the developer's commentary over on reddit should lead all but the most cynical to quickly conclude that he or she is not in it for the money.

    Making the code publicly available was also probably not the best strategy if that was or is the goal.

    Methinks this is an unintended red herring.
    Accepted. Mark them, Galt.
  • AviTrekAviTrek ✭✭✭✭✭
    robownage wrote: »
    AviTrek wrote: »
    This has nothing to do with fair/unfair, macro/not-macro. It's an unauthorized access to do their servers. Their security and legal team should be screaming to shut it down on those grounds.
    Except that's a blatant lie as until two days ago it was a featured link on the forums. They've given their explicit blessing to it by doing so.

    It's been a quasi unofficial not looking too carefully. I'll wait for you to share an official statement from DB to the developer authorize him to write a third party app to access STT. Until then, it's unauthorized access no matter what is on a forum sticky.
  • AviTrekAviTrek ✭✭✭✭✭
    5000 Quatloos wrote: »
    AviTrek wrote: »
    And now that he's asking for money to help with hosting, that's a super fine grey line between helping with hosting and making money off of DB's game.

    A quick perusal of the developer's commentary over on reddit should lead all but the most cynical to quickly conclude that he or she is not in it for the money.

    Making the code publicly available was also probably not the best strategy if that was or is the goal.

    Methinks this is an unintended red herring.

    Maybe that's true in this case (although good luck convincing a lawyer of that), but DB also doesn't want to set a precedent for the future. If they allow this tool, then what about the next tool? The minute money starts changing hands, lawyers want clear rules. To go back to the fan films again, Star Trek continues was grey but quietly accepted, then Axanar showed up and CBS had to step in. CBS then created clear rules, no reading a blog to determine intent. If you play by their rules you're allowed, if you don't, you're not.
  • PetrichorPetrichor ✭✭✭
    Yes, iampicard is fair and does not unfairly advantage players
    This thing is so helpful with letting me know if my voyage is going to make it or not.
  • ThurthoradThurthorad ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes, iampicard is fair and does not unfairly advantage players
    Yep, I think this is the problem..

    https://www.patreon.com/iampicard

    Looks like he is getting backing from only a handful of people, but this probably at least partly the source of the current woes.

    I've only just started using it for an alt account and it seems fine to me.
  • Odo MarmarosaOdo Marmarosa ✭✭✭✭✭
    I do not care. Leave it alone and focus on improving the game interface.
    I do not use it. Based on what I have read I do not feel that I am disadvantaged by those who do. Also based on what I've read the author of program has been deferential towards DB and I hope that he can address their concerns.
  • DScottHewittDScottHewitt ✭✭✭✭✭
    No, iampicard automates the game and should be banned.
    Data1001 wrote: »
    AviTrek wrote: »
    robownage wrote: »
    AviTrek wrote: »
    This has nothing to do with fair/unfair, macro/not-macro. It's an unauthorized access to do their servers. Their security and legal team should be screaming to shut it down on those grounds.
    Except that's a blatant lie as until two days ago it was a featured link on the forums. They've given their explicit blessing to it by doing so.

    It's been a quasi unofficial not looking too carefully. I'll wait for you to share an official statement from DB to the developer authorize him to write a third party app to access STT. Until then, it's unauthorized access no matter what is on a forum sticky.

    In the original thread (which has now been removed), the author shared a screenshot of a conversation between him and a DB rep, which stated the intentions for the tool and asked if there would be any issue with it, and they replied that it should not be a problem. That feels like authorization as far as I'm concerned.

    Now, of course DB can decide to rescind that original statement or say that the person who gave permission did not have the right to do so, but it's not as though it was done on the sly without anyone from DB knowing about it.

    Who was the "rep"? What level of the company? Direct employee or a CS "contractor"? "I don't see a problem with t" by someone who might or might not have authority to make an official decsion may or may not be an official "endoresment"...............
    "The truth is like a lion; you don't have to defend it. Let it loose; it will defend itself."
  • ThurthoradThurthorad ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yes, iampicard is fair and does not unfairly advantage players
    ByloBand wrote: »
    Just a few random observations:

    IMO the results of this poll on these forums were never NOT going to be anything but what they are, the key wording being "on these forums". If we could somehow poll the entire STT playerbase I suspect the results would be much less favorable for the app. Please do not read into this anything regarding my own opinion, just reporting on a theoretical bias.

    But this observation leads me to my own struggle with this entire conversation, namely awareness. I think it is fairly well established that most people assume the following two truths:

    1. That casual players do not care to compete with those of us who play hard and therefore do not care what tools/information are used to get there.

    2. That players that want to go 100% will seek out any/all information to help them achieve, up to and including finding these forums, Reddit forums, the wiki, etc, and that people who do not do these things are casuals.

    To me this leaves out a group of people who want to try hard but for whatever reason do not seek out additional information. A quick glance at the event rankings every week when compared with a list of the active people on this forum should at the very least allow for the possibility that many of these people exist; I am not saying they definitely DO exist, but it seems reasonable to assume that there are people who are trying who only try within the confines of the game itself without using outside information.

    And here is where IMO "some kind of" line needs to be drawn between something like the wiki and an add-on app that directly accesses your account and actively makes optimal decisions for players in the game. The wiki is a collection of shared information assembled by players, the IAP app represents the outsourcing of game play decisions. If we allow for the existence of players who intend to be competitive but are for whatever reason ignorant of outside resources, this to me represents a fundamental tilting or unbalancing of the playing field.

    So what is to be done? If this app is in fact authorized (I am not challenging this claim) then DB is aware of it and at least peripherally involved, so I would be satisfied with a single in-game announcement as to the existence of the IAP app so that there can be no argument against the idea that EVERYONE has been made aware of it. OR, have DB reach out to the developer and have the developer incorporate the IAP tools directly into the game so everyone benefits. Those are two solutions that should satisfy everyone and address the gray area this app creates.

    I don't get why any of this is important. Surely looking for resources is the essence of effort. I haven't used the IAP app until the last few days and I have been a forum member for over 2 years. Many of my fleetmates who play hard never visit the forums. We all have spreadsheets that rank and process data that we have made ourselves, though we have shared ideas, code and data and we talk all day every day about what's good and what's not. When I discovered the IAP app I didn't feel like I should have been using it or anything. It is genuinely not an advantage in events and so it really doesn't matter at all.

    What is certainly true is that we all hate Gauntlet as a boring, tedious and random exercise and that if this shenanigans blows over I will be recommending that people consider using the app for Gauntlet. As it stands, Gauntlet is a huge embarrassment of a feature in the game.

    I use the IAP app for an alt account and it does mean that I now actually log into it regularly because I don't have to keep it open all of the time. The ability to manage Voyages and Gauntlet from my browser is just glorious. It doesn't make my alt account any less bad at the game, but does mean I care more about it.
  • Bylo BandBylo Band ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 2019
    5000 Quatloos wrote: »
    @ByloBand I applaud your move towards a constructive approach with one clarification, you say:
    And here is where IMO "some kind of" line needs to be drawn between something like the wiki and an add-on app that directly accesses your account and actively makes optimal decisions for players in the game.

    IAP does not make any decisions for a player (and certainly not actively) It makes recommendations, however, those recommendations cannot be defined as "optimal" since all of the items it recommends on are multivariate optimization problems for which closed form optimal solutions do not exist.
    One follow up question to this: out of 100 suggestions made by IAP, how many of them does the average STT player overrule?

    -EDIT-

    For the record, I have the HIGHEST respect for you @5000 Quatloos. We at times find ourselves on the opposite side of discussions, but that in no way diminishes my respect for you.
This discussion has been closed.