Discovery season 2......guessing future plot welcome. WARNING! MAYBE SPOILERS HERE!!!!!!!!

easypeasy

I think it's fair enough for those who want to avoid spoilers to use the other thread but this one may be a bit more relaxed.
So this red "angel".... Something related to "canon" from previous trek or something brand new?

easypeasy

Could it be this race? https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Ancient_humanoid
Or even a "Q" playing around with time and space again?
Have you got any sane or wacky theories?

RennJaxo

I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that it's an Iconian.

[DC] Picard Loves Reds

Never mind. Have fun all!

Travis S McClain

I don't have any speculation about the Red Angel. I can't think of anything obvious that fits what we've seen to date. There are elements that recall the Iconians, the Preservers, and the Q. The relationship with Spock brings to mind V'Ger connecting with him. (Which is not to say I think V'Ger fits into this whatsoever, because I don't; it's just a parallel to that one aspect of the Red Angel.)

I do have one speculation, though, which is that L'Rell and Voq's pale offspring grows up to become The Albino. He'd be younger than Kor, Koloth, and Kang, but it's hard to tell in "Blood Oath" just how old any of the four are, except that they're all in their twilight years. It would account for his complexion and his feud with the House of Kor. I don't expect this to be something followed up on, though, so it'll likely just remain an idle speculation.

PompeyMagnus

Travis S McClain wrote: »

I don't have any speculation about the Red Angel. I can't think of anything obvious that fits what we've seen to date. There are elements that recall the Iconians, the Preservers, and the Q. The relationship with Spock brings to mind V'Ger connecting with him. (Which is not to say I think V'Ger fits into this whatsoever, because I don't; it's just a parallel to that one aspect of the Red Angel.)

I do have one speculation, though, which is that L'Rell and Voq's pale offspring grows up to become The Albino. He'd be younger than Kor, Koloth, and Kang, but it's hard to tell in "Blood Oath" just how old any of the four are, except that they're all in their twilight years. It would account for his complexion and his feud with the House of Kor. I don't expect this to be something followed up on, though, so it'll likely just remain an idle speculation.

After watching that episode, the Albino is the first thing that came to mind.

I hope it's something they follow up on somewhere down the line, for now I want them to leave the Klingons alone for a while and focus on the red bursts storyline. The Klingon episode certainly felt like they were tying up the Voq/L'Rell storyline.

Travis S McClain

PompeyMagnus wrote: »

Travis S McClain wrote: »

I don't have any speculation about the Red Angel. I can't think of anything obvious that fits what we've seen to date. There are elements that recall the Iconians, the Preservers, and the Q. The relationship with Spock brings to mind V'Ger connecting with him. (Which is not to say I think V'Ger fits into this whatsoever, because I don't; it's just a parallel to that one aspect of the Red Angel.)

I do have one speculation, though, which is that L'Rell and Voq's pale offspring grows up to become The Albino. He'd be younger than Kor, Koloth, and Kang, but it's hard to tell in "Blood Oath" just how old any of the four are, except that they're all in their twilight years. It would account for his complexion and his feud with the House of Kor. I don't expect this to be something followed up on, though, so it'll likely just remain an idle speculation.

After watching that episode, the Albino is the first thing that came to mind.

I hope it's something they follow up on somewhere down the line, for now I want them to leave the Klingons alone for a while and focus on the red bursts storyline. The Klingon episode certainly felt like they were tying up the Voq/L'Rell storyline.

Ever since "Blood Oath" aired, we've wondered who The Albino was, and whether he was a Klingon whose appearance was only Klingon-esque or some other race. There are some dots in "Point of Light" that look like they could be connected, but there's nothing to say decidedly one way or the other. I'll be disappointed if they actually say one way or the other. Even having the speculation confirmed isn't as satisfying as picking up on the possible clues and theorizing.

There are two reasons to estrange Tyler from L'Rell and the Empire: Either to split them up between shows (Tyler moves to Georgiou/S31 spin-off, L'Rell maintains presence throughout Disco) or to set-up more soap opera stuff between them on either or both. I'm willing to take "Point of Light" as a necessary establishment of these things, but I sincerely hope future episodes feel more organic and less like a rushed effort to hit some bullet points.

Kaitee

I've got a theory (wacky Broadway nightmare) about the Red Angel, which I googled and turns out a whole bunch of people also thought of it, so I'm not that clever after all, but I'ma put it down here anyway so if I turn out to be right I can brag a lot. Spoilers (which is okay I guess, it's in the thread title) up to whatever the episode title where Michael goes back to Vulcan and the ship investigates a time hole.

So what I was thinking is, the Short Treks looked like little background pieces, but they're actually turning out to be establishing stuff for season two to use. Tilly Makes A Friend set up her being in the command programme (kind of a basic one, unless that species shows up again, but it does work storywise so I'm counting it), Pen Pals The Sequel set up the Kaminar episode, I think I read somewhere Mudd's coming back so besides letting him have a hell of a lot of fun that's what that was for... so what's Starfleet WALL-E about? Doesn't seem connected to anything, the ship's just hanging around the future. What else is from the future? The Red Angel. I think Disco wasn't abandoned for no reason, I think that's another situation the Red Angel engineered, because Zora is the Red Angel and she's creating the conditions that create her. The reason she's able to get out heroes to do exactly the right thing at the right time is she was there, as Disco, and is just doing what she remembers. The reason she messed with Spock's head, and found Michael when she was lost as a kid, is because the crew have been feeding everything they know about the Angel into Disco's computer - she's doing what they told her she does.

(I feel like the Sphere is part of it as well - not as direct as 'the Angel is actually the Sphere reincarnated' but more like that slice of galaxy pie kind of pushed Disco over the edge into becoming alive, rather than just 'any computer left alone long enough will start liking musicals'. The way they used the Sphere data in I, Kelpien got me wondering - they could've macguffined themselves any clue they wanted to realise the Kelpiens used to be predators, I think they used the Sphere partly to covertly remind us all that the data's still on the ship and 'active'. I think that's where some of the Angel's crazy-cool tech comes from, anyway.)

Now it kinda looks like they're setting up Airiam, but my feeling is that's a decoy - she's part of it, but it's not just 'Airiam plus future-programming' is the Angel. My guess (and I admit I'm kind of out on a limb here) is that the octoprobe is another element of Zora creating herself, she captured it and upgraded it to do what it's doing, and Airiam is essentially a conduit - maybe like a trojan horse, she rigs Disco to have a false alarm and get everyone off the ship so it can drift for a millennium, I dunno. I don't think the Red Angel physical form we're seeing is Airiam in a suit, I think the Angel is literally Discovery. I dunno, I just feel like if it is Airiam they're tipping their hand too soon, at episode seven - she's part of it, but what showing us that now is doing is setting up the situation where we (and/or the crew as they catch on) are like "A-ha, you're Airiam!" and she's like "Nuh-uh," and where we're expecting her to take off her helmet and it's Airiam, instead her body dimensionally unfolds into the entire ship. (It'd be best if this scene didn't happen indoors, obviously.)

And where this all comes back to is something I thought while I was watching Calypso, which is how it seems a foregone conclusion that the computer's evil because that's how it always goes in these kinds of scenarios - if not outright malevolent from the start, at least when Craft declines to give her ample nacelles a once-over, you'd think that's when she'd go crazy with jealousy and he'd have to escape. But she's kind. And that reminded me of Picard in season seven after the ship had a baby: "The intelligence that was formed on the Enterprise didn't just come out of the ship's systems. It came from us. From our mission records, personal logs, holodeck programs, our fantasies. Now, if our experiences with the Enterprise have been honorable, can't we trust that the sum of those experiences will be the same?"

Basically I think Disco season two is a giant rewrite of 'Emergence', just without the train.

DScottHewitt

Travis S McClain wrote: »

I don't have any speculation about the Red Angel. I can't think of anything obvious that fits what we've seen to date. There are elements that recall the Iconians, the Preservers, and the Q. The relationship with Spock brings to mind V'Ger connecting with him. (Which is not to say I think V'Ger fits into this whatsoever, because I don't; it's just a parallel to that one aspect of the Red Angel.)
.

Saru said when saw the Red Angel clearer it was a Humanoid wearing high-tech suit. What if it wasn't, but was one of the mechanical lifeforms that repaired V'ger?!?!?

DScottHewitt

Kaitee wrote: »

I've got a theory (wacky Broadway nightmare) about the Red Angel, which I googled and turns out a whole bunch of people also thought of it, so I'm not that clever after all, but I'ma put it down here anyway so if I turn out to be right I can brag a lot. Spoilers (which is okay I guess, it's in the thread title) up to whatever the episode title where Michael goes back to Vulcan and the ship investigates a time hole.

So what I was thinking is, the Short Treks looked like little background pieces, but they're actually turning out to be establishing stuff for season two to use. Tilly Makes A Friend set up her being in the command programme (kind of a basic one, unless that species shows up again, but it does work storywise so I'm counting it), Pen Pals The Sequel set up the Kaminar episode, I think I read somewhere Mudd's coming back so besides letting him have a hell of a lot of fun that's what that was for... so what's Starfleet WALL-E about? Doesn't seem connected to anything, the ship's just hanging around the future. What else is from the future? The Red Angel. I think Disco wasn't abandoned for no reason, I think that's another situation the Red Angel engineered, because Zora is the Red Angel and she's creating the conditions that create her. The reason she's able to get out heroes to do exactly the right thing at the right time is she was there, as Disco, and is just doing what she remembers. The reason she messed with Spock's head, and found Michael when she was lost as a kid, is because the crew have been feeding everything they know about the Angel into Disco's computer - she's doing what they told her she does.

(I feel like the Sphere is part of it as well - not as direct as 'the Angel is actually the Sphere reincarnated' but more like that slice of galaxy pie kind of pushed Disco over the edge into becoming alive, rather than just 'any computer left alone long enough will start liking musicals'. The way they used the Sphere data in I, Kelpien got me wondering - they could've macguffined themselves any clue they wanted to realise the Kelpiens used to be predators, I think they used the Sphere partly to covertly remind us all that the data's still on the ship and 'active'. I think that's where some of the Angel's crazy-cool tech comes from, anyway.)

Now it kinda looks like they're setting up Airiam, but my feeling is that's a decoy - she's part of it, but it's not just 'Airiam plus future-programming' is the Angel. My guess (and I admit I'm kind of out on a limb here) is that the octoprobe is another element of Zora creating herself, she captured it and upgraded it to do what it's doing, and Airiam is essentially a conduit - maybe like a trojan horse, she rigs Disco to have a false alarm and get everyone off the ship so it can drift for a millennium, I dunno. I don't think the Red Angel physical form we're seeing is Airiam in a suit, I think the Angel is literally Discovery. I dunno, I just feel like if it is Airiam they're tipping their hand too soon, at episode seven - she's part of it, but what showing us that now is doing is setting up the situation where we (and/or the crew as they catch on) are like "A-ha, you're Airiam!" and she's like "Nuh-uh," and where we're expecting her to take off her helmet and it's Airiam, instead her body dimensionally unfolds into the entire ship. (It'd be best if this scene didn't happen indoors, obviously.)

And where this all comes back to is something I thought while I was watching Calypso, which is how it seems a foregone conclusion that the computer's evil because that's how it always goes in these kinds of scenarios - if not outright malevolent from the start, at least when Craft declines to give her ample nacelles a once-over, you'd think that's when she'd go crazy with jealousy and he'd have to escape. But she's kind. And that reminded me of Picard in season seven after the ship had a baby: "The intelligence that was formed on the Enterprise didn't just come out of the ship's systems. It came from us. From our mission records, personal logs, holodeck programs, our fantasies. Now, if our experiences with the Enterprise have been honorable, can't we trust that the sum of those experiences will be the same?"

Basically I think Disco season two is a giant rewrite of 'Emergence', just without the train.

I so want this to be the answer now!!!!!

DScottHewitt

I would also think it would be cool if somewhere in Season Two they randomly drop a couple of lines of dialog explaining why Archer's Enterprise had Phase Pistols and Pike's Enterprise had laser pistols.....

PompeyMagnus

DScottHewitt wrote: »

I would also think it would be cool if somewhere in Season Two they randomly drop a couple of lines of dialog explaining why Archer's Enterprise had Phase Pistols and Pike's Enterprise had laser pistols.....

I hope not. I do not believe Discovery (or any newer Trek series) needs to create in-universe explanations for some of TOS' more half-baked things from 50+ years ago. I could tolerate a throwaway line about trying out a new laser weapon, but please nothing more.

I didn't like Enterprise's whole storyline about Klingon augments to explain why TOS Klingons had no forehead ridges. I liked a lot about that episode, Uncle Phil as a Klingon, Antaak, etc but I didn't care for the need to create an explanation for bad 1960's makeup design.

I think they should have kept the lack of forehead ridges as a bit of a tongue-in-cheek joke. In the DS9 Tribbles episode Worf should have just said "I don't know what you're talking about. I don't see a difference".

easypeasy

So we can see now Airium is the red angel who was infected by a virus that Jean luc Picard sent back from the future?

Kaitee

I still think "We do not discuss it with outsiders!" was the most perfect explanation.

So yeah revised theory - Squiddly was sent by the planet killers and its programming via Airiam is working to derail attempts to change the timeline, but for lack of other evidence (and because I'm kinda attached to it) I'm still sticking with the Angel being Zora/Dicso, and the 'change' she's attempting is actually the course of history as it always was/will be.

DScottHewitt

Kaitee wrote: »

I still think "We do not discuss it with outsiders!" was the most perfect explanation.

So yeah revised theory - Squiddly was sent by the planet killers and its programming via Airiam is working to derail attempts to change the timeline, but for lack of other evidence (and because I'm kinda attached to it) I'm still sticking with the Angel being Zora/Dicso, and the 'change' she's attempting is actually the course of history as it always was/will be.

That whole "It's gotta be a Hooman because Spock sensed emotions" thing feels like a red herring. Zora/Disco has emotions if you pay attention to "Calypso"........


If it is a Hooman, I think it might be someone we have "kinda" seen a little of only. Maybe someone who kinda has skills that are abnormally off the scale, but people just aren't picking up on just how off the charts advanced those skills are. Perhaps one of those quantum leaps in Hooman evolution that Charles Xavier tells us only come along every few thousand generations..........

Kaitee

DScottHewitt wrote: »

That whole "It's gotta be a Hooman because Spock sensed emotions" thing feels like a red herring.

I'm inclined to think so. Putting aside that I want it to be Zora because I'm headcanoning lines for her reveal scene, I can't think of a human candidate that would feel satisfying. Maybe Spock (there is a certain something to him ignoring his humanity only to find out that he is the 'human' he sensed) but I haven't seen a lot of push back on the notion that the Angel is female, and I do get that impression from her body. Also I like the idea that Spock's rejection of his humanity won't get wrapped up neatly this season, because it plays out quite satisfactorily in TOS and the films as it is, there's no need to wrap it up now. Burnham... maybe, but while I don't really agree overall with people complaining that Burnham's too much the Mary Sue, I don't know that I'd make her the literal deity figure of the season if I were in the writers' place. Maybe Tilly but that feels like a stretch, and while I like how they're developing Detmer and Owo they're not important enough yet. And Georgiou just feels like a bad fit for the idea. Whereas in an "Do you want to know something? Everybody's human" sense, Zora is totally human - and I just keep coming back to wondering why else they'd have shown us Zora in Calypso, if she wasn't going to matter to the season.

Something else I'm wondering now is, who are the planet killers? If it were me I wouldn't just pull something like that out of my butt, I feel like there must be a hint as to their origin more than just "Oh yeah, in the future there are these robots, they're jerks." So going through the episodes we've seen, they're probably not Reno, those folks on the church planet don't seem the type to turn into omnicidal robots, the Klingons wouldn't make a doomsday weapon without plastering their symbol all over it, the Sphere seemed more advanced than the purely mechanical PKs we saw in Spock's vision, and the Ba'ul are pricks but don't seem like that big a deal, power-wise - I mean they can threaten Disco as a single ship, but I didn't get the impression they were being set up as potential galaxy stompers. Obviously they're linked to Airiam now, and it could be a circular kind of thing - like they infect Airiam, Airiam in turn instigates their creation in some way, but that seems excessively cute, I dunno. But one thing I did get to wondering is, with regard to Section 31, who's Control? Or what's Control? Because if there's one group, the way they're being presented in Disco anyway, who'd conceivably stumble into accidentally making a SkyNet... That Squiddly came from 500 years in the future is a bit weird - I mean, if the villain's around now in some form, that's a huge timeskip before they become 'active' - but Control feels like a thread I want to pull on a bit. (That'd also explain why nobody knows about S31 in DS9, Disco barely stops them inadvertently causing a galactic Judgement Day, and Starfleet shuts S31 down hard for their stupidity and put in a "let us never speak of this again" policy - except Georgiou's faction, who go dark and slip out from under without anyone noticing.)

DScottHewitt

Kaitee wrote: »

DScottHewitt wrote: »

That whole "It's gotta be a Hooman because Spock sensed emotions" thing feels like a red herring.

I'm inclined to think so. Putting aside that I want it to be Zora because I'm headcanoning lines for her reveal scene, I can't think of a human candidate that would feel satisfying. Maybe Spock (there is a certain something to him ignoring his humanity only to find out that he is the 'human' he sensed) but I haven't seen a lot of push back on the notion that the Angel is female, and I do get that impression from her body. Also I like the idea that Spock's rejection of his humanity won't get wrapped up neatly this season, because it plays out quite satisfactorily in TOS and the films as it is, there's no need to wrap it up now. Burnham... maybe, but while I don't really agree overall with people complaining that Burnham's too much the Mary Sue, I don't know that I'd make her the literal deity figure of the season if I were in the writers' place. Maybe Tilly but that feels like a stretch, and while I like how they're developing Detmer and Owo they're not important enough yet. And Georgiou just feels like a bad fit for the idea. Whereas in an "Do you want to know something? Everybody's human" sense, Zora is totally human - and I just keep coming back to wondering why else they'd have shown us Zora in Calypso, if she wasn't going to matter to the season.

Something else I'm wondering now is, who are the planet killers? If it were me I wouldn't just pull something like that out of my butt, I feel like there must be a hint as to their origin more than just "Oh yeah, in the future there are these robots, they're jerks." So going through the episodes we've seen, they're probably not Reno, those folks on the church planet don't seem the type to turn into omnicidal robots, the Klingons wouldn't make a doomsday weapon without plastering their symbol all over it, the Sphere seemed more advanced than the purely mechanical PKs we saw in Spock's vision, and the Ba'ul are pricks but don't seem like that big a deal, power-wise - I mean they can threaten Disco as a single ship, but I didn't get the impression they were being set up as potential galaxy stompers. Obviously they're linked to Airiam now, and it could be a circular kind of thing - like they infect Airiam, Airiam in turn instigates their creation in some way, but that seems excessively cute, I dunno. But one thing I did get to wondering is, with regard to Section 31, who's Control? Or what's Control? Because if there's one group, the way they're being presented in Disco anyway, who'd conceivably stumble into accidentally making a SkyNet... That Squiddly came from 500 years in the future is a bit weird - I mean, if the villain's around now in some form, that's a huge timeskip before they become 'active' - but Control feels like a thread I want to pull on a bit. (That'd also explain why nobody knows about S31 in DS9, Disco barely stops them inadvertently causing a galactic Judgement Day, and Starfleet shuts S31 down hard for their stupidity and put in a "let us never speak of this again" policy - except Georgiou's faction, who go dark and slip out from under without anyone noticing.)

I can't "snip" on the tablet. I thought Control was the four Admirals that Lelippa were talking to.

Kaitee

DScottHewitt wrote: »

I can't "snip" on the tablet. I thought Control was the four Admirals that Lelippa were talking to.

There's that bit of Leland and Flip bickering about AIs though, that in her universe they took orders, not gave them. And the way they're repeatedly using the phrase "threat assessment" in dialogue w/r/t Control feels right the heck like it's setting the stage for the whole 'then one day it decided we were all a threat' SkyNet problem.

I might be wrong. I have this thing where as soon as I come up with a theory I stick with it until the bitter end, so any guesses I make in the meantime are suspect.

I don't know if it's anything, but I did get a weird feeling from the way what appeared to be Reno's 'kids' hovered into the mess hall on their own - I think in the scene between Stamets and Hugh? It stood out in a weird way, and I'm not sure I can nail down the reason for them being there. If it was innocent and they were just there to remind us that Reno's still around (presumably part of the main engineering crew, which is kind of off-screen), it feels kind of weird that they'd choose that scene - like, big heart-wrenching conversation, oh hey remember to put the CGI pods in for absolutely no plot-relevant reason. But it's so random I'm not sure what else it could be meant to convey. Reno is the Angel? I mean she does like tech that floats around her. But if that was it, then somebody thought it was really important to set up that she... saw Hugh and Paul having a rocky time of it, why? (Or am I remembering wrong which scene it was in?) Maybe I'm just reading too much into that.

DScottHewitt

Kaitee wrote: »

DScottHewitt wrote: »

I can't "snip" on the tablet. I thought Control was the four Admirals that Lelippa were talking to.

There's that bit of Leland and Flip bickering about AIs though, that in her universe they took orders, not gave them. And the way they're repeatedly using the phrase "threat assessment" in dialogue w/r/t Control feels right the heck like it's setting the stage for the whole 'then one day it decided we were all a threat' SkyNet problem.

I might be wrong. I have this thing where as soon as I come up with a theory I stick with it until the bitter end, so any guesses I make in the meantime are suspect.

I don't know if it's anything, but I did get a weird feeling from the way what appeared to be Reno's 'kids' hovered into the mess hall on their own - I think in the scene between Stamets and Hugh? It stood out in a weird way, and I'm not sure I can nail down the reason for them being there. If it was innocent and they were just there to remind us that Reno's still around (presumably part of the main engineering crew, which is kind of off-screen), it feels kind of weird that they'd choose that scene - like, big heart-wrenching conversation, oh hey remember to put the CGI pods in for absolutely no plot-relevant reason. But it's so random I'm not sure what else it could be meant to convey. Reno is the Angel? I mean she does like tech that floats around her. But if that was it, then somebody thought it was really important to set up that she... saw Hugh and Paul having a rocky time of it, why? (Or am I remembering wrong which scene it was in?) Maybe I'm just reading too much into that.

I totally missed it was the "kids"!!! I just thought it was 23rd Century Roombas cleaning up after the fight. But it being them, and "seeing" a problem that "Mama" might need to know about .......

It's the little clues that might confirm a theory. Like our theory that Jett is the Red Angel..........


EDIT: Reno is apparently onboard as supernumerary crew now. She mentioned it when she was trapped in the Spore Chamber with the others.

DScottHewitt

I'ma be honest. Tonight's episode made me cry.

I was yelling at my screen "Beam her to the Brig! Beam her to the Brig!"

Also...

When they found the Tellarite Admiral I was like "They're all four dead! Including Satar!! It's a trap!"

As well...

By episode twelve or thirteen Sylvia, Paul, and Jett will figure out how to save her to a new body, since her memories are banked on Disco...

Kaitee

Called it! For Control, anyway. I'm getting a bit of a 'Michael is the Angel' vibe - which I'm hoping is a decoy, it doesn't really feel satisfying. Honestly I liked Spock's little tirade in that regard, I feel like Michael as a character could really grow through learning it's not all about her, which'd be kinda undercut if, well, it's all about her.

RSVP Airiam. Although I'm glad Nhan made it, I was finding her particularly adorable this episode, with her minidress uniform. I admit I did get suckered in when she seemed to be on the way out - especially since I feel like the lighting a couple of shots earlier, just before it all went wrong, really highlit the red on her uniform under the EV suit. That said while it served the ending for her 'surprise' reappearance, I did spend the whole scene after Michael put Airiam behind the door thinking "So, you gonna go check on Nhan, or what?" Anyway.

And obviously I had to add "Do you have to hit every! Single! One!" to the minefield sequence.

DScottHewitt

Kaitee wrote: »

Called it! For Control, anyway. I'm getting a bit of a 'Michael is the Angel' vibe - which I'm hoping is a decoy, it doesn't really feel satisfying. Honestly I liked Spock's little tirade in that regard, I feel like Michael as a character could really grow through learning it's not all about her, which'd be kinda undercut if, well, it's all about her.

RSVP Airiam. Although I'm glad Nhan made it, I was finding her particularly adorable this episode, with her minidress uniform. I admit I did get suckered in when she seemed to be on the way out - especially since I feel like the lighting a couple of shots earlier, just before it all went wrong, really highlit the red on her uniform under the EV suit. That said while it served the ending for her 'surprise' reappearance, I did spend the whole scene after Michael put Airiam behind the door thinking "So, you gonna go check on Nhan, or what?" Anyway.

And obviously I had to add "Do you have to hit every! Single! One!" to the minefield sequence.

I just knew the whole augmentation conversation between her and Airiam was clearly foreshadowing!!! And it kind of felt like ham-fisted forced writing with the revelation that Control is after Michael because she is the key, and it is all about her. A Red Angel Red Herring!!!

DScottHewitt

Okay, kudos to CBS/Paramount.

I don't think anyone even wildly guessed Michael's dead Momma!!!

Kaitee

Ah dangit

Good episode though, I loved Spock particularly. Still not feeling Ash though. It's rough, Shazad Latif sells the heck out of everything they give him, but I just don't get the character.

Okay new theory, because I don't know when to cut my losses and quit:

The debris from Squiddly was in fact recovered when they were trawling the wreckage a couple episodes back, but Skynet!Airiam fudged the sensor readings to hide it, and due to some kind of shenanigans and hijinks involving Control (also yikes, that spike) it'll wind up being part of a time jump drive thing to End The World, and to stop it Michael, or Mama Burnham, or whoever will get in the Red Angel suit and jump into a time hole to seal it up and protect everyone, at the cost of never being able to return, and then someone comes up with the idea to have Discovery wait a thousand years for Michael/whoever to finish their 'one way' trip so they'll land right back on the ship, and then the ship uses the Squiddly-wreckage-time-drive to travel back to the 23rd Century and reunite everyone. The Zora's mind gets transferred from the ship into the suit, she goes off and has Adventures in Time and Space, everyone's happy.

I admit I'm reaching here, but I'm gonna figure out a way to cram that lady into that suit no matter how many pretzels I have to twist the plot into.

DScottHewitt

Kaitee wrote: »

Ah dangit

Good episode though, I loved Spock particularly. Still not feeling Ash though. It's rough, Shazad Latif sells the heck out of everything they give him, but I just don't get the character.

Okay new theory, because I don't know when to cut my losses and quit:

The debris from Squiddly was in fact recovered when they were trawling the wreckage a couple episodes back, but Skynet!Airiam fudged the sensor readings to hide it, and due to some kind of shenanigans and hijinks involving Control (also yikes, that spike) it'll wind up being part of a time jump drive thing to End The World, and to stop it Michael, or Mama Burnham, or whoever will get in the Red Angel suit and jump into a time hole to seal it up and protect everyone, at the cost of never being able to return, and then someone comes up with the idea to have Discovery wait a thousand years for Michael/whoever to finish their 'one way' trip so they'll land right back on the ship, and then the ship uses the Squiddly-wreckage-time-drive to travel back to the 23rd Century and reunite everyone. The Zora's mind gets transferred from the ship into the suit, she goes off and has Adventures in Time and Space, everyone's happy.

I admit I'm reaching here, but I'm gonna figure out a way to cram that lady into that suit no matter how many pretzels I have to twist the plot into.

I like that theory!!!

Two big beeves with the episode I had were

They just erased her like she never existed and then stood around the Shuttle Bay talking about how great she was. And I think the whole "deletion" sequence was done just to be a kick in the teeth to fans. "Oh, you think her memories are gonna be used to save her somehow? Frak you and the tauntaun you rode in on!"

Unless...

what if there is an unknown backup somewhere, and in the next 1,000 years she gets integrated into the Disco's computer, making it self aware?

The other big beef is the whole

"That bio-neural signature is 100% unique, cannot be faked, and is conclusively Michael Burnham's." Except it totally wasn't Michael's......

Kaitee

First point

That did feel weird to me when they showed her programming being erased, but it made sense once they explained it was to eliminate any trace of Squiddly's virus-program. Overall as much as I'll miss her, I'm okay with her being Proper Dead, rather than having an escape hatch to bring her back - I don't want to see a Data/B4 kind of thing, it'd make the whole funeral and everyone being upset seem kind of cheap. There are exceptions - Culber for instance, since his death was pretty much meaningless, so undoing it doesn't undermine any 'sacrifice', plus I'm slightly more biased towards him since he's so so pretty.

I did get quite a chuckle out of Nilsson turning up on the bridge though.

Second point

I did wonder that too, but Control's fooled them before, with the holograms. Maybe Admiral Bob and Culber weren't prepared for how convincingly Control's future-AI could spoof the neural pattern, variances and all, and Control wanted them to go through with the whole trap plan to further its own goals. I mean they say they sealed off the wormhole so no more Squiddlies can come through, but Control took over the ship doing the sealing, so that doesn't seem like a safe bet to me, and meanwhile Starfleet's just put Control's biggest enemy in a cage.

Incidentally do we need spoiler tags in this thread, or is this the free-for-all thread anyway? I know it's meant to be for guessing future stuff, but we seem to be kind of coming around to general "Just saw the episode, here's what I think." I don't mind either way, just wondering.

DScottHewitt

Kaitee wrote: »

First point

That did feel weird to me when they showed her programming being erased, but it made sense once they explained it was to eliminate any trace of Squiddly's virus-program. Overall as much as I'll miss her, I'm okay with her being Proper Dead, rather than having an escape hatch to bring her back - I don't want to see a Data/B4 kind of thing, it'd make the whole funeral and everyone being upset seem kind of cheap. There are exceptions - Culber for instance, since his death was pretty much meaningless, so undoing it doesn't undermine any 'sacrifice', plus I'm slightly more biased towards him since he's so so pretty.

I did get quite a chuckle out of Nilsson turning up on the bridge though.

Second point

I did wonder that too, but Control's fooled them before, with the holograms. Maybe Admiral Bob and Culber weren't prepared for how convincingly Control's future-AI could spoof the neural pattern, variances and all, and Control wanted them to go through with the whole trap plan to further its own goals. I mean they say they sealed off the wormhole so no more Squiddlies can come through, but Control took over the ship doing the sealing, so that doesn't seem like a safe bet to me, and meanwhile Starfleet's just put Control's biggest enemy in a cage.

Incidentally do we need spoiler tags in this thread, or is this the free-for-all thread anyway? I know it's meant to be for guessing future stuff, but we seem to be kind of coming around to general "Just saw the episode, here's what I think." I don't mind either way, just wondering.

I was being overly cautious, probably. Used to people on Facebook reading a whole long thread about a movie currently in theatres, and then complaining there were spoilers.



So, do we think Leland is just half blind, or bleeding out in an empty corridor? They haven't done the Lelippa stranded on a moon, get the tension worked out episode, yet!!!


Easily the best moment had to be Hugh's reaction to Philippa.

"Did you just call me "Papi"?!?!?"


On that Nillson thing. Are they doing a Voq/Ash thing in the end credits? They had a different name for the actor playing her.........

Kaitee

Oh I think Leland be dead. After the shock wore off I figured that was a security measure to deal with unauthorised people trying to use the scanner, and I don't see Section 31 going for 'sorry, try again' countermeasures. Granted it was a really thin spike, but I'm guessing it delivered a rapid-acting toxin/acid right into his brain. And on a more plot-side way of thinking, once he delivered his story about Michael's parents he's kind of played out, there's no real questions about him left hanging that need him alive.

Nilsson's played by Sara Mitich, who was Airiam in season one. They recast Airiam with Hannah Cheesman in season two, and Mitich switched over to Nilsson at the same time. I don't actually know why - at first I assumed Mitich was leaving the show (I mean all of season one she must've been getting to the studio at like 4am to start makeup, just to stand around the bridge and maybe say "Aye Sir" once an episode) and they gave her Nilsson in s2ep1 just to give her some screen time with her actual face before she left, but now Airiam's gone and Nilsson isn't, obviously that ain't it. It's possible the makeup was messing her up - Virginia Hey had to leave Farscape because the Zhaan makeup was impacting her health - but she'd signed up for multiple seasons and they didn't want to pay out her contact and lose her as an actor, so they did a switcheroo to drop Airiam but keep Mitich.

They didn't need to replace Airiam on the bridge, really, her job was Spore Drive Ops and given the drive's been shifted to 'only in emergencies' it feels like they could've just left it and had some extra stand at that bridge station without bothering to make a point of it. The way they made a focus of Nilsson coming onto the bridge and taking Airiam's spot made me think she's going to be a regular fixture as much as the other bridge bunnies - if the point was just to let Mitich show her actual face a bit so people can recognise her in whatever she goes and does next, it's kinda bizarre that they've stretched her little cameos out over this long, and kind of made a point of her being there, so it'd be weird if she now just vanishes.

DScottHewitt

Every time Leland went to stick his head in that retina reader, I was yelling at the tablet "Don't be too graphic!"

I knew it was gonna attack him.



What if "Mommy" isn't Mommy, though?!?!?

What if Michael thought it was her mother, because she didn't recognize herself, older?!?!?

Kaitee

The spike totally got me - I mean obviously I had the dawning realisation that something's not right (although mainly I was thinking it was kind of cool that USS Leland had a male computer voice, and not really thinking ahead) then BAM, gotcha.

I feel like Time Mama is the real deal, if only because things all seem to fit together - she had the suit, the crystal (I was wondering if this was going to be tied into Mudd somehow, although it doesn't seem like it; guess 'time crystals' are just a thing), the supernova to jumpstart the tech, they even made a point of reminding us in flashback that Baby Michael couldn't actually see what was going on (and presumably didn't know the Klingon for "Did that lady just disappear in a time hole?" so it just sounded like more shouting). The odd one out is Airiam's data IDing Michael, but that's Control and obviously Control's up to something, so there's a question mark on that. And it feels like if it's not her mum that'd have to come out pretty soon next episode, so there's not much value in the cliffhanger - it's not like catching the Angel at the same moment Control turns out to be still in the game isn't enough of a wham to finish the episode on already, it'd be weird if the writers' room felt like they needed to throw in something extra even if they had to fake it.

DScottHewitt

A lot definitely happened in that episode. I'm trying to think back to Season One if Michael said anything when talking to Ash about the attack that indicated she like saw a dead Mommy or such.