this is something I'd love to create a formula for and include in the DNA checklist. Then I could eliminate one external element. I made need to explore this as well. If you ever want to share your formula, I'd love to look at including it in this community resource.
Plenty of comments/ thoughts and some might be a repeat of what has been discussed above:
1. The score ranking system (not talking about the formula behind it) is unclear.
So, how much more useful is a Voyage score 14 crew over a voyage score 13 crew? e.g. Kahless (14) over TO Neelix (13). Is the scaling liner or log or something else?
Is there a (theoretical) limit to the maximum score? So can crew have a higher score than 14 for Voyages? Can score go negative (I can imagine a negative number is possible if say it turns out that a 5* crew is worse for voyages than certain 4* crew)?
1b. For ranking based on stats, to really see how good/bad a crew is, it is good to somehow include standard deviation ... what is average and how much better than average is a specific crew ... anything above 2 standard deviations is exceptional.
2. The Faction score baffles me a bit, some general comments:
- For McCoy see what others have stated.
- I had to look up who Admiral Patrick was ... with such a bland skill set he'd be near useless in most faction events when factoring other bonus crew ... any 4* crew with a small bonus would "only" need 619 CMD and 511 SCI to be a better choice ... factor in 3* skill boosts and Patrick gets left in the dust. For general, daily shuttles ... Tenavik who has the same skills and similar stats, but better bases ... is lower!?!
- I like to look at certain crew and see how a rating system rates them ... RAF O'Brien is a favourite of mine to analyse ... how in the world is he, with double 1000+ (without bonuses) below Grilka, who just barely makes 1000 for DIP only, for Faction rating?
3. Like others, I think you undervalue the 3rd skill score for voyages.
Let me explain in brief here ...
The way voyage mechanics work, getting a natural 12 hrs is currently impossible with the crew available, this means that the stats needed to get to 10 hrs should be the base case for voyage strength because reaching 10 hrs means a safety stage-gate is met (you won't lose your voyage, as it just stops) and you can't reach the next gate safely.
This in turn means that while raw stats are great for voyages, there also needs to be a certain balance to those stats.
So, once you've hit a specific number for the two main skills on a voyage there's not much use to add a lot more to those two skills. Hence, it becomes important to add to the other 4 skills, with an emphasis on one of those 4.
What this implies is that ... if you have an average to good voyager ... the more stats they have in their THIRD skill the better ... because I'm assuming you're picking crew to meet the main skills anyway. Also, the more common the skill set the more useful it is to have a higher 3rd score.
As an example ... if you have a voyager who has a total of 3350 with 715 in their third skill they should rate higher than a voyager, with the same skill combo and total, but with 600 in their third skill.
That first crew will be used for a lot longer as a player betters their roster than crew #2 ... because as a player you'll find that, in general, it is harder to boost those 4 skills to decent levels than it is to get the two main skills to their required numbers.
And so I look again at ol' fave RAF O'Brien (who has a massive score in his third skill) and see him listed alongside Grilka, Judge Q, (2 skillers) Elnor, Niners Worf ... for Voyage score ... and it is at this point I start scratching my head a bit. Something is off.
4. It is really easy to factor in skill combo.
Like the point says ... if you find a system to adequately break skill combos down you can come up with replacement factors. You don't need to know my crew make-up, I can use the general numbers adjusted to my crew build-up to see who would be most useful to me.
I understand you just want to view raw numbers ... but then you get voyage rankings like you have, where better voyage stats = better voyage crew ... which on the face of it might seem self-evident, but is not always the case, especially when you start picking up more crew.
Personally, I do it like this ... 1/2/x ... 1/x/3 ... x/2/3 ... where for CMD/DIP all crew with CMD and DIP in either of their primary and secondary skill get counted under the first category, no matter what their third skill is ... crew with CMD and DIP as primary and tertiary get counted in category 2 ... category 3 is secondary and tertiary of those skills ... it does not matter in which order they are, because I assume that you are trying to balance skills, so a CMD/DIP/x is just as useful as a DIP/CMD/x crew on a CMD/DIP voyage.
Anyway ... have said enough, for now, am tired ... have tried to keep it short but could say so much more. I'm not saying that the way I've done it is the right way, but maybe it will provide you with a different view on things that will help improve your list. And hopefully, the post has given you food for thought.
I couldn’t resist jumping in here to dispute one thing you said. A 12 hour voyage is not impossible. In running one million simulations on the best numbers I’ve had for a 12 hour voyage to date, 7 of those one million made it to 12 hours without a refresh. I’m going back under my rock now but I had to chime in because getting a 12 hour voyage is the only reason I have left for playing.
Plenty of comments/ thoughts and some might be a repeat of what has been discussed above:
1. The score ranking system (not talking about the formula behind it) is unclear.
So, how much more useful is a Voyage score 14 crew over a voyage score 13 crew? e.g. Kahless (14) over TO Neelix (13). Is the scaling liner or log or something else?
Is there a (theoretical) limit to the maximum score? So can crew have a higher score than 14 for Voyages? Can score go negative (I can imagine a negative number is possible if say it turns out that a 5* crew is worse for voyages than certain 4* crew)?
1b. For ranking based on stats, to really see how good/bad a crew is, it is good to somehow include standard deviation ... what is average and how much better than average is a specific crew ... anything above 2 standard deviations is exceptional.
2. The Faction score baffles me a bit, some general comments:
- For McCoy see what others have stated.
- I had to look up who Admiral Patrick was ... with such a bland skill set he'd be near useless in most faction events when factoring other bonus crew ... any 4* crew with a small bonus would "only" need 619 CMD and 511 SCI to be a better choice ... factor in 3* skill boosts and Patrick gets left in the dust. For general, daily shuttles ... Tenavik who has the same skills and similar stats, but better bases ... is lower!?!
- I like to look at certain crew and see how a rating system rates them ... RAF O'Brien is a favourite of mine to analyse ... how in the world is he, with double 1000+ (without bonuses) below Grilka, who just barely makes 1000 for DIP only, for Faction rating?
3. Like others, I think you undervalue the 3rd skill score for voyages.
Let me explain in brief here ...
The way voyage mechanics work, getting a natural 12 hrs is currently impossible with the crew available, this means that the stats needed to get to 10 hrs should be the base case for voyage strength because reaching 10 hrs means a safety stage-gate is met (you won't lose your voyage, as it just stops) and you can't reach the next gate safely.
This in turn means that while raw stats are great for voyages, there also needs to be a certain balance to those stats.
So, once you've hit a specific number for the two main skills on a voyage there's not much use to add a lot more to those two skills. Hence, it becomes important to add to the other 4 skills, with an emphasis on one of those 4.
What this implies is that ... if you have an average to good voyager ... the more stats they have in their THIRD skill the better ... because I'm assuming you're picking crew to meet the main skills anyway. Also, the more common the skill set the more useful it is to have a higher 3rd score.
As an example ... if you have a voyager who has a total of 3350 with 715 in their third skill they should rate higher than a voyager, with the same skill combo and total, but with 600 in their third skill.
That first crew will be used for a lot longer as a player betters their roster than crew #2 ... because as a player you'll find that, in general, it is harder to boost those 4 skills to decent levels than it is to get the two main skills to their required numbers.
And so I look again at ol' fave RAF O'Brien (who has a massive score in his third skill) and see him listed alongside Grilka, Judge Q, (2 skillers) Elnor, Niners Worf ... for Voyage score ... and it is at this point I start scratching my head a bit. Something is off.
4. It is really easy to factor in skill combo.
Like the point says ... if you find a system to adequately break skill combos down you can come up with replacement factors. You don't need to know my crew make-up, I can use the general numbers adjusted to my crew build-up to see who would be most useful to me.
I understand you just want to view raw numbers ... but then you get voyage rankings like you have, where better voyage stats = better voyage crew ... which on the face of it might seem self-evident, but is not always the case, especially when you start picking up more crew.
Personally, I do it like this ... 1/2/x ... 1/x/3 ... x/2/3 ... where for CMD/DIP all crew with CMD and DIP in either of their primary and secondary skill get counted under the first category, no matter what their third skill is ... crew with CMD and DIP as primary and tertiary get counted in category 2 ... category 3 is secondary and tertiary of those skills ... it does not matter in which order they are, because I assume that you are trying to balance skills, so a CMD/DIP/x is just as useful as a DIP/CMD/x crew on a CMD/DIP voyage.
Anyway ... have said enough, for now, am tired ... have tried to keep it short but could say so much more. I'm not saying that the way I've done it is the right way, but maybe it will provide you with a different view on things that will help improve your list. And hopefully, the post has given you food for thought.
I couldn’t resist jumping in here to dispute one thing you said. A 12 hour voyage is not impossible. In running one million simulations on the best numbers I’ve had for a 12 hour voyage to date, 7 of those one million made it to 12 hours without a refresh. I’m going back under my rock now but I had to chime in because getting a 12 hour voyage is the only reason I have left for playing.
3. Like others, I think you undervalue the 3rd skill score for voyages.
Let me explain in brief here ...
The way voyage mechanics work, getting a natural 12 hrs is currently impossible with the crew available, this means that the stats needed to get to 10 hrs should be the base case for voyage strength because reaching 10 hrs means a safety stage-gate is met (you won't lose your voyage, as it just stops) and you can't reach the next gate safely.
This in turn means that while raw stats are great for voyages, there also needs to be a certain balance to those stats.
So, once you've hit a specific number for the two main skills on a voyage there's not much use to add a lot more to those two skills. Hence, it becomes important to add to the other 4 skills, with an emphasis on one of those 4.
What this implies is that ... if you have an average to good voyager ... the more stats they have in their THIRD skill the better ... because I'm assuming you're picking crew to meet the main skills anyway. Also, the more common the skill set the more useful it is to have a higher 3rd score.
As an example ... if you have a voyager who has a total of 3350 with 715 in their third skill they should rate higher than a voyager, with the same skill combo and total, but with 600 in their third skill.
That first crew will be used for a lot longer as a player betters their roster than crew #2 ... because as a player you'll find that, in general, it is harder to boost those 4 skills to decent levels than it is to get the two main skills to their required numbers.
And so I look again at ol' fave RAF O'Brien (who has a massive score in his third skill) and see him listed alongside Grilka, Judge Q, (2 skillers) Elnor, Niners Worf ... for Voyage score ... and it is at this point I start scratching my head a bit. Something is off.
An interesting idea you hit upon here with the idea of wanting a high third skill on your voyage crew for success. I have not noticed this with my voyages as a crew member like Dark Ages McCoy who would fit this model is rarely used by me. I will look into it in the future as I could be unknowingly picking these people.
For me I have found the best way to ensure a 10 hr voyage is not to have a strong third skill but to have the four other skills at 5,000 or higher. If all skills are at 5,000 you will not fail any hazard before four hours which adds an extra 200 am to your starting voyage am. They will even pass some after four hours. Even close to 5,000 will often get you there. Then you want primary and secondary skills to be at 11,800 - 12,500 but preferably 12,000 - 12,500. By this method you do not have to worry about boosting a tertiary skill that rarely hits a hazard. Just smooth voyaging unless you have catastrophically bad luck which rarely occurs.
Eventually, there will be another tab with all crew... as you can see, they use the same scale, so are directly comparable (as opposed to a Tier 1 for each rarity).
CABTools.app
Ov (Overall) | Vo (Voyage) | Fa (Faction) | Ga (Gauntlet)
Sb (Ship Battle) | Bt (Boss Battle Traits) | Co (Collection) | (Cd (Cadet)
3. Like others, I think you undervalue the 3rd skill score for voyages.
Irrespective of skill combo, traits etc. (in the manner of the OP's list) here is a shortlist (far from complete, just to give an indication) of crew who I would expect to rate high(-er than expected) regarding voyages:
- Desert Archer (higher than Scrooge Data at least)
- Captain Braxton (the raw stats needed to better Braxton will be insane)
- Executive Director Hugh
- Vice Admiral Janeway
- Borg Queen (higher than Admiral Forrest at least)
- The Caretaker
- Leo Da Vinci
- The Red Angel (higher than Honey Bare ... see below)
- Xindi Insectoid
- Honey Bare Jadzia (massively power crept by the Red Angel, but still good option until you get RA immortalised)
- Locutus
- Dr. Pollard
- Surak (higher than Picard & #1 at least)
- First Officer Burnham
- Indulgent Seven
(I love how many of these are "older" crew, so players will have had a high chance to pick up these nuggets.)
With the likes of:
- Twilight T'Pol
- RAF Miles O'Brien
right behind them.
I also want to restate here that I'm talking about 10 hr voyages ... not when a player is just starting to reach between 8 to 10 hrs ... at that moment you might still want crew to push as much into the two highlighted voyage skills ... think Forrest, Garth etc. ... and bank a bit more on luck ...
But I don't want to hijack this thread and turn it into a voyage crew discussion ... maybe I'll start a thread in the Ready Room ... but my enthusiasm for this game is on the wane (not due to all the hubbub of late, more the staleness of the game state for me - event grind, massive imbalance in crew improvement/cost/time spent in game etc.) ... so we'll see.
Tau and Flotter in the Top 30? Yet Roman Captive Kirk at 54. Somethings not right there...
I didn’t even have to go that far down before finding something incongruous with reality: Torchbearer Voq above Mintakan Troi and Robin Hood. I did thaw Voq for the last event and he was helpful, but doesn’t hold a candle to Troi or Robin Hood for overall value.
How is Sato not at the top of the list? She crushes all crew on every one skill test (1517 DIP) and all crew on every two skill test (1755 DIP-CMD). On top of that she's also a main cast crew member.
Yes a crew with two strong skills is potentially valuable but in practice only the primary skill matters with the secondary skill just buffing the other. You have Cornwell higher ranked than Sato because she's a strong two skill crew. I can not think of a time when I used her DIP for a faction or galaxy mission.
An interesting idea you hit upon here with the idea of wanting a high third skill on your voyage crew for success. I have not noticed this with my voyages as a crew member like Dark Ages McCoy who would fit this model is rarely used by me. I will look into it in the future as I could be unknowingly picking these people.
McCoy and his tuxedo twin Bashir make Voyages all the time for me because they're triple Voyage threats. It helps that both have a lot of traits.
For me I have found the best way to ensure a 10 hr voyage is not to have a strong third skill but to have the four other skills at 5,000 or higher.
And how do you get those four other skills at 5000 or higher? By bringing crew that have a potentially strong 3rd skill.
Also having a strong 3rd skill is pretty helpful in fine tuning your voyage lengths. Boxer Trip is a decent two skill voyager for ENGSEC but I find that I ignore him for ENGCMD or even CMDSEC because of his poor 3rd skill.
Plenty of comments/ thoughts and some might be a repeat of what has been discussed above:
1. The score ranking system (not talking about the formula behind it) is unclear.
So, how much more useful is a Voyage score 14 crew over a voyage score 13 crew? e.g. Kahless (14) over TO Neelix (13). Is the scaling liner or log or something else?
Is there a (theoretical) limit to the maximum score? So can crew have a higher score than 14 for Voyages? Can score go negative (I can imagine a negative number is possible if say it turns out that a 5* crew is worse for voyages than certain 4* crew)?
1b. For ranking based on stats, to really see how good/bad a crew is, it is good to somehow include standard deviation ... what is average and how much better than average is a specific crew ... anything above 2 standard deviations is exceptional.
2. The Faction score baffles me a bit, some general comments:
- For McCoy see what others have stated.
- I had to look up who Admiral Patrick was ... with such a bland skill set he'd be near useless in most faction events when factoring other bonus crew ... any 4* crew with a small bonus would "only" need 619 CMD and 511 SCI to be a better choice ... factor in 3* skill boosts and Patrick gets left in the dust. For general, daily shuttles ... Tenavik who has the same skills and similar stats, but better bases ... is lower!?!
- I like to look at certain crew and see how a rating system rates them ... RAF O'Brien is a favourite of mine to analyse ... how in the world is he, with double 1000+ (without bonuses) below Grilka, who just barely makes 1000 for DIP only, for Faction rating?
3. Like others, I think you undervalue the 3rd skill score for voyages.
Let me explain in brief here ...
The way voyage mechanics work, getting a natural 12 hrs is currently impossible with the crew available, this means that the stats needed to get to 10 hrs should be the base case for voyage strength because reaching 10 hrs means a safety stage-gate is met (you won't lose your voyage, as it just stops) and you can't reach the next gate safely.
This in turn means that while raw stats are great for voyages, there also needs to be a certain balance to those stats.
So, once you've hit a specific number for the two main skills on a voyage there's not much use to add a lot more to those two skills. Hence, it becomes important to add to the other 4 skills, with an emphasis on one of those 4.
What this implies is that ... if you have an average to good voyager ... the more stats they have in their THIRD skill the better ... because I'm assuming you're picking crew to meet the main skills anyway. Also, the more common the skill set the more useful it is to have a higher 3rd score.
As an example ... if you have a voyager who has a total of 3350 with 715 in their third skill they should rate higher than a voyager, with the same skill combo and total, but with 600 in their third skill.
That first crew will be used for a lot longer as a player betters their roster than crew #2 ... because as a player you'll find that, in general, it is harder to boost those 4 skills to decent levels than it is to get the two main skills to their required numbers.
And so I look again at ol' fave RAF O'Brien (who has a massive score in his third skill) and see him listed alongside Grilka, Judge Q, (2 skillers) Elnor, Niners Worf ... for Voyage score ... and it is at this point I start scratching my head a bit. Something is off.
4. It is really easy to factor in skill combo.
Like the point says ... if you find a system to adequately break skill combos down you can come up with replacement factors. You don't need to know my crew make-up, I can use the general numbers adjusted to my crew build-up to see who would be most useful to me.
I understand you just want to view raw numbers ... but then you get voyage rankings like you have, where better voyage stats = better voyage crew ... which on the face of it might seem self-evident, but is not always the case, especially when you start picking up more crew.
Personally, I do it like this ... 1/2/x ... 1/x/3 ... x/2/3 ... where for CMD/DIP all crew with CMD and DIP in either of their primary and secondary skill get counted under the first category, no matter what their third skill is ... crew with CMD and DIP as primary and tertiary get counted in category 2 ... category 3 is secondary and tertiary of those skills ... it does not matter in which order they are, because I assume that you are trying to balance skills, so a CMD/DIP/x is just as useful as a DIP/CMD/x crew on a CMD/DIP voyage.
Anyway ... have said enough, for now, am tired ... have tried to keep it short but could say so much more. I'm not saying that the way I've done it is the right way, but maybe it will provide you with a different view on things that will help improve your list. And hopefully, the post has given you food for thought.
I couldn’t resist jumping in here to dispute one thing you said. A 12 hour voyage is not impossible. In running one million simulations on the best numbers I’ve had for a 12 hour voyage to date, 7 of those one million made it to 12 hours without a refresh. I’m going back under my rock now but I had to chime in because getting a 12 hour voyage is the only reason I have left for playing.
Sounds like the odds of a 12 hour voyage are better than the odds of top row Dabo.
@A Traveling Man [Cymru Am Byth] , I hope you don't take the criticism personally. When people post resources like this, they get dissected by the community. Their personal views and strategies are incorporated into their responses. It seems a bit brutal sometimes. There are probably aims to improve the resource mixed in with folks telling you that you're playing wrong. If it helps, I've heard that similar feedback was given to @Automaton_2000 and @eXo | SilverRose when they created their resources. @Bylo Band has had similar reactions when he has run experiments with the game. Those who put themselves out there and try to help the community are not always criticized in the most constructive manner.
I am grateful that you have provided this resource for players. Some may approach the game similarly to you and this will help them. On their behalf, I thank you and I encourage you to keep going. Especially if it is a passion that drives you. If you find concepts in this thread that help you improve the resource, then all the better. If it helps to ignore the thread, then I urge you to do so. I wish you well and bid you happy fortune.
An interesting idea you hit upon here with the idea of wanting a high third skill on your voyage crew for success. I have not noticed this with my voyages as a crew member like Dark Ages McCoy who would fit this model is rarely used by me. I will look into it in the future as I could be unknowingly picking these people.
McCoy and his tuxedo twin Bashir make Voyages all the time for me because they're triple Voyage threats. It helps that both have a lot of traits.
For me I have found the best way to ensure a 10 hr voyage is not to have a strong third skill but to have the four other skills at 5,000 or higher.
And how do you get those four other skills at 5000 or higher? By bringing crew that have a potentially strong 3rd skill.
Also having a strong 3rd skill is pretty helpful in fine tuning your voyage lengths. Boxer Trip is a decent two skill voyager for ENGSEC but I find that I ignore him for ENGCMD or even CMDSEC because of his poor 3rd skill.
For me it is all about high voyage score people not necessarily a high third skill. I realize there is some overlap in the two groups. But what I look at is getting the primary and secondary to a desired level then I put in other people that are strong in the other skills that need boosting. Dark Ages McCoy has a very high third skill but I only seem to use him when there is a med-sec voyage. His voyage score is 3250 which is decent but I prefer 3300 or higher where possible. It is all about getting the highest voyage score people and immortalizing them. If average voyage score for crew is about 3200 and I can immortalize a 3500 crew member then I am adding 300 more points to my voyage than I would have had I used the 3200 crew member. But maybe you would say in doing so I am getting high third skills as a result. What do you consider a high number for a third skill?
@Prime Lorca [10FH] - Thanks for the mention. I am not taking it personally at all. Some people have raised some good points. Honestly, I expected to get roasted more - or worse, ignored. I actually view this as a good sign.
Two things I will be doing - #1, adding a decimal to the power rankings. I distilled things down to the way I did before because I was trying to make it easy to judge at a glance. Gary Seven's overall, for instance, before conversion, is 949. That's even less clear to me. I may well have made it too simple. That change is live now. If it is an improvement, I'd love to hear about it.
I will, very soon, also be taking a look at the Voyage component of the formula. That is the newest one. The Faction rankings I have been working on and refining for a long, long time. Most of what I have seen - both here and in other places, is comments about voyage placement. I think the list is good now, but some reworking might make it better. Voyages are complicated stat-wise, so it makes sense that there is room for improvement.
CABTools.app
Ov (Overall) | Vo (Voyage) | Fa (Faction) | Ga (Gauntlet)
Sb (Ship Battle) | Bt (Boss Battle Traits) | Co (Collection) | (Cd (Cadet)
@Prime Lorca [10FH] - Thanks for the mention. I am not taking it personally at all. Some people have raised some good points. Honestly, I expected to get roasted more - or worse, ignored. I actually view this as a good sign.
Two things I will be doing - #1, adding a decimal to the power rankings. I distilled things down to the way I did before because I was trying to make it easy to judge at a glance. Gary Seven's overall, for instance, before conversion, is 949. That's even less clear to me. I may well have made it too simple. That change is live now. If it is an improvement, I'd love to hear about it.
I will, very soon, also be taking a look at the Voyage component of the formula. That is the newest one. The Faction rankings I have been working on and refining for a long, long time. Most of what I have seen - both here and in other places, is comments about voyage placement. I think the list is good now, but some reworking might make it better. Voyages are complicated stat-wise, so it makes sense that there is room for improvement.
I like it. It is a cool fun new thing to look at and discuss.
An interesting idea you hit upon here with the idea of wanting a high third skill on your voyage crew for success. I have not noticed this with my voyages as a crew member like Dark Ages McCoy who would fit this model is rarely used by me. I will look into it in the future as I could be unknowingly picking these people.
McCoy and his tuxedo twin Bashir make Voyages all the time for me because they're triple Voyage threats. It helps that both have a lot of traits.
For me I have found the best way to ensure a 10 hr voyage is not to have a strong third skill but to have the four other skills at 5,000 or higher.
And how do you get those four other skills at 5000 or higher? By bringing crew that have a potentially strong 3rd skill.
Also having a strong 3rd skill is pretty helpful in fine tuning your voyage lengths. Boxer Trip is a decent two skill voyager for ENGSEC but I find that I ignore him for ENGCMD or even CMDSEC because of his poor 3rd skill.
For me it is all about high voyage score people not necessarily a high third skill. I realize there is some overlap in the two groups. But what I look at is getting the primary and secondary to a desired level then I put in other people that are strong in the other skills that need boosting. Dark Ages McCoy has a very high third skill but I only seem to use him when there is a med-sec voyage. His voyage score is 3250 which is decent but I prefer 3300 or higher where possible. It is all about getting the highest voyage score people and immortalizing them. If average voyage score for crew is about 3200 and I can immortalize a 3500 crew member then I am adding 300 more points to my voyage than I would have had I used the 3200 crew member. But maybe you would say in doing so I am getting high third skills as a result. What do you consider a high number for a third skill?
3350 total score with 20%+ on the third skill (i.e. 670+) ... all of the list I posted meet those "requirements" (so does the new L'Rell for example).
So if I compare, for example, Surak and Picard & #1:
Surak - 3496 : 713 (i.e. 20.4%)
Picard & #1 - 3558 : 638 (i.e. 18.4%)
I find myself choosing Surak all the time over Picard, because on voyages I might use them I'd rather have extra CMD than even more SCI or DIP ... that's a voyage combo I've got down quite well ... see screenshot ... look at CMD, just over 4000 ... why would I want even more SCI and DIP in this case? I'd rather have the lowest score (CMD) as high as possible and so in goes Surak to give 75 points (without bonuses) extra to CMD.
What do you consider a high number for a third skill?
Current Voyage is ENGDIP. I go for 12k/12k. In my fine tuning I ended up putting two Med Crew in the MED seats. One was Cornwell (a frequent choice). The other I needed a Human with some DIP. My three choices are DAMcCoy, Bell Bashir and Bond Bashir. McCoy makes the cut because his very high tertiary DIP puts me over the 12K threshold while adding additional stats to the Voyage. A weaker tertiary skill wouldn't have done that.
Generally, I like something in the 800-900 pt range. Its a healthy amount of bonus stats without sacrificing something at the top end. There are some crew that frequently fail to make the cut because the tertiary is too weak. Thrax is worse than Sisko but most of that worse is in his tertiary. Sisko makes every SECDIP voyage I do but Thrax almost never does unless he has a good trait.
An interesting idea you hit upon here with the idea of wanting a high third skill on your voyage crew for success. I have not noticed this with my voyages as a crew member like Dark Ages McCoy who would fit this model is rarely used by me. I will look into it in the future as I could be unknowingly picking these people.
McCoy and his tuxedo twin Bashir make Voyages all the time for me because they're triple Voyage threats. It helps that both have a lot of traits.
For me I have found the best way to ensure a 10 hr voyage is not to have a strong third skill but to have the four other skills at 5,000 or higher.
And how do you get those four other skills at 5000 or higher? By bringing crew that have a potentially strong 3rd skill.
Also having a strong 3rd skill is pretty helpful in fine tuning your voyage lengths. Boxer Trip is a decent two skill voyager for ENGSEC but I find that I ignore him for ENGCMD or even CMDSEC because of his poor 3rd skill.
For me it is all about high voyage score people not necessarily a high third skill. I realize there is some overlap in the two groups. But what I look at is getting the primary and secondary to a desired level then I put in other people that are strong in the other skills that need boosting. Dark Ages McCoy has a very high third skill but I only seem to use him when there is a med-sec voyage. His voyage score is 3250 which is decent but I prefer 3300 or higher where possible. It is all about getting the highest voyage score people and immortalizing them. If average voyage score for crew is about 3200 and I can immortalize a 3500 crew member then I am adding 300 more points to my voyage than I would have had I used the 3200 crew member. But maybe you would say in doing so I am getting high third skills as a result. What do you consider a high number for a third skill?
3350 total score with 20%+ on the third skill (i.e. 670+) ... all of the list I posted meet those "requirements" (so does the new L'Rell for example).
So if I compare, for example, Surak and Picard & #1:
Surak - 3496 : 713 (i.e. 20.4%)
Picard & #1 - 3558 : 638 (i.e. 18.4%)
I find myself choosing Surak all the time over Picard, because on voyages I might use them I'd rather have extra CMD than even more SCI or DIP ... that's a voyage combo I've got down quite well ... see screenshot ... look at CMD, just over 4000 ... why would I want even more SCI and DIP in this case? I'd rather have the lowest score (CMD) as high as possible and so in goes Surak to give 75 points (without bonuses) extra to CMD.
An interesting idea you hit upon here with the idea of wanting a high third skill on your voyage crew for success. I have not noticed this with my voyages as a crew member like Dark Ages McCoy who would fit this model is rarely used by me. I will look into it in the future as I could be unknowingly picking these people.
McCoy and his tuxedo twin Bashir make Voyages all the time for me because they're triple Voyage threats. It helps that both have a lot of traits.
For me I have found the best way to ensure a 10 hr voyage is not to have a strong third skill but to have the four other skills at 5,000 or higher.
And how do you get those four other skills at 5000 or higher? By bringing crew that have a potentially strong 3rd skill.
Also having a strong 3rd skill is pretty helpful in fine tuning your voyage lengths. Boxer Trip is a decent two skill voyager for ENGSEC but I find that I ignore him for ENGCMD or even CMDSEC because of his poor 3rd skill.
For me it is all about high voyage score people not necessarily a high third skill. I realize there is some overlap in the two groups. But what I look at is getting the primary and secondary to a desired level then I put in other people that are strong in the other skills that need boosting. Dark Ages McCoy has a very high third skill but I only seem to use him when there is a med-sec voyage. His voyage score is 3250 which is decent but I prefer 3300 or higher where possible. It is all about getting the highest voyage score people and immortalizing them. If average voyage score for crew is about 3200 and I can immortalize a 3500 crew member then I am adding 300 more points to my voyage than I would have had I used the 3200 crew member. But maybe you would say in doing so I am getting high third skills as a result. What do you consider a high number for a third skill?
3350 total score with 20%+ on the third skill (i.e. 670+) ... all of the list I posted meet those "requirements" (so does the new L'Rell for example).
So if I compare, for example, Surak and Picard & #1:
Surak - 3496 : 713 (i.e. 20.4%)
Picard & #1 - 3558 : 638 (i.e. 18.4%)
I find myself choosing Surak all the time over Picard, because on voyages I might use them I'd rather have extra CMD than even more SCI or DIP ... that's a voyage combo I've got down quite well ... see screenshot ... look at CMD, just over 4000 ... why would I want even more SCI and DIP in this case? I'd rather have the lowest score (CMD) as high as possible and so in goes Surak to give 75 points (without bonuses) extra to CMD.
I see what you mean, that is interesting. I guess I am doing the same to some degree without thinking about it by being aware of the third skill on crew to make micro adjustments. Like if I need a little more security I use Proto Barclay with his third security skill rather than Leo Da Vinci who has a third skill of medicine. Do you find that having a score 11,700 for your science secondary hurt your voyage length? I try to keep both primary and secondary at 12,000 - 12,500. Were I running that voyage I would have made some small adjustments to take a little away from engineering and medicine and add to command to bring it up above 5,000 by maybe replacing caretaker with someone else and also tried to get science a little higher.
Also for fun I have been trying to trait match as much as possible while making sure it does not hurt my voyage length by immortalizing high voyage legendaries that also have many traits. It gives me some additional goals to shoot for and is great for making the starting am higher on voyages I extend to fill up the day and have the recall be at night while I sleep.
Comments
An interesting idea you hit upon here with the idea of wanting a high third skill on your voyage crew for success. I have not noticed this with my voyages as a crew member like Dark Ages McCoy who would fit this model is rarely used by me. I will look into it in the future as I could be unknowingly picking these people.
For me I have found the best way to ensure a 10 hr voyage is not to have a strong third skill but to have the four other skills at 5,000 or higher. If all skills are at 5,000 you will not fail any hazard before four hours which adds an extra 200 am to your starting voyage am. They will even pass some after four hours. Even close to 5,000 will often get you there. Then you want primary and secondary skills to be at 11,800 - 12,500 but preferably 12,000 - 12,500. By this method you do not have to worry about boosting a tertiary skill that rarely hits a hazard. Just smooth voyaging unless you have catastrophically bad luck which rarely occurs.
Eventually, there will be another tab with all crew... as you can see, they use the same scale, so are directly comparable (as opposed to a Tier 1 for each rarity).
Ov (Overall) | Vo (Voyage) | Fa (Faction) | Ga (Gauntlet)
Sb (Ship Battle) | Bt (Boss Battle Traits) | Co (Collection) | (Cd (Cadet)
Irrespective of skill combo, traits etc. (in the manner of the OP's list) here is a shortlist (far from complete, just to give an indication) of crew who I would expect to rate high(-er than expected) regarding voyages:
- Desert Archer (higher than Scrooge Data at least)
- Captain Braxton (the raw stats needed to better Braxton will be insane)
- Executive Director Hugh
- Vice Admiral Janeway
- Borg Queen (higher than Admiral Forrest at least)
- The Caretaker
- Leo Da Vinci
- The Red Angel (higher than Honey Bare ... see below)
- Xindi Insectoid
- Honey Bare Jadzia (massively power crept by the Red Angel, but still good option until you get RA immortalised)
- Locutus
- Dr. Pollard
- Surak (higher than Picard & #1 at least)
- First Officer Burnham
- Indulgent Seven
(I love how many of these are "older" crew, so players will have had a high chance to pick up these nuggets.)
With the likes of:
- Twilight T'Pol
- RAF Miles O'Brien
right behind them.
I also want to restate here that I'm talking about 10 hr voyages ... not when a player is just starting to reach between 8 to 10 hrs ... at that moment you might still want crew to push as much into the two highlighted voyage skills ... think Forrest, Garth etc. ... and bank a bit more on luck ...
But I don't want to hijack this thread and turn it into a voyage crew discussion ... maybe I'll start a thread in the Ready Room ... but my enthusiasm for this game is on the wane (not due to all the hubbub of late, more the staleness of the game state for me - event grind, massive imbalance in crew improvement/cost/time spent in game etc.) ... so we'll see.
I didn’t even have to go that far down before finding something incongruous with reality: Torchbearer Voq above Mintakan Troi and Robin Hood. I did thaw Voq for the last event and he was helpful, but doesn’t hold a candle to Troi or Robin Hood for overall value.
How is Sato not at the top of the list? She crushes all crew on every one skill test (1517 DIP) and all crew on every two skill test (1755 DIP-CMD). On top of that she's also a main cast crew member.
Yes a crew with two strong skills is potentially valuable but in practice only the primary skill matters with the secondary skill just buffing the other. You have Cornwell higher ranked than Sato because she's a strong two skill crew. I can not think of a time when I used her DIP for a faction or galaxy mission.
McCoy and his tuxedo twin Bashir make Voyages all the time for me because they're triple Voyage threats. It helps that both have a lot of traits.
And how do you get those four other skills at 5000 or higher? By bringing crew that have a potentially strong 3rd skill.
Also having a strong 3rd skill is pretty helpful in fine tuning your voyage lengths. Boxer Trip is a decent two skill voyager for ENGSEC but I find that I ignore him for ENGCMD or even CMDSEC because of his poor 3rd skill.
Sounds like the odds of a 12 hour voyage are better than the odds of top row Dabo.
I am grateful that you have provided this resource for players. Some may approach the game similarly to you and this will help them. On their behalf, I thank you and I encourage you to keep going. Especially if it is a passion that drives you. If you find concepts in this thread that help you improve the resource, then all the better. If it helps to ignore the thread, then I urge you to do so. I wish you well and bid you happy fortune.
For me it is all about high voyage score people not necessarily a high third skill. I realize there is some overlap in the two groups. But what I look at is getting the primary and secondary to a desired level then I put in other people that are strong in the other skills that need boosting. Dark Ages McCoy has a very high third skill but I only seem to use him when there is a med-sec voyage. His voyage score is 3250 which is decent but I prefer 3300 or higher where possible. It is all about getting the highest voyage score people and immortalizing them. If average voyage score for crew is about 3200 and I can immortalize a 3500 crew member then I am adding 300 more points to my voyage than I would have had I used the 3200 crew member. But maybe you would say in doing so I am getting high third skills as a result. What do you consider a high number for a third skill?
Two things I will be doing - #1, adding a decimal to the power rankings. I distilled things down to the way I did before because I was trying to make it easy to judge at a glance. Gary Seven's overall, for instance, before conversion, is 949. That's even less clear to me. I may well have made it too simple. That change is live now. If it is an improvement, I'd love to hear about it.
I will, very soon, also be taking a look at the Voyage component of the formula. That is the newest one. The Faction rankings I have been working on and refining for a long, long time. Most of what I have seen - both here and in other places, is comments about voyage placement. I think the list is good now, but some reworking might make it better. Voyages are complicated stat-wise, so it makes sense that there is room for improvement.
Ov (Overall) | Vo (Voyage) | Fa (Faction) | Ga (Gauntlet)
Sb (Ship Battle) | Bt (Boss Battle Traits) | Co (Collection) | (Cd (Cadet)
I like it. It is a cool fun new thing to look at and discuss.
3350 total score with 20%+ on the third skill (i.e. 670+) ... all of the list I posted meet those "requirements" (so does the new L'Rell for example).
So if I compare, for example, Surak and Picard & #1:
Surak - 3496 : 713 (i.e. 20.4%)
Picard & #1 - 3558 : 638 (i.e. 18.4%)
I find myself choosing Surak all the time over Picard, because on voyages I might use them I'd rather have extra CMD than even more SCI or DIP ... that's a voyage combo I've got down quite well ... see screenshot ... look at CMD, just over 4000 ... why would I want even more SCI and DIP in this case? I'd rather have the lowest score (CMD) as high as possible and so in goes Surak to give 75 points (without bonuses) extra to CMD.
Current Voyage is ENGDIP. I go for 12k/12k. In my fine tuning I ended up putting two Med Crew in the MED seats. One was Cornwell (a frequent choice). The other I needed a Human with some DIP. My three choices are DAMcCoy, Bell Bashir and Bond Bashir. McCoy makes the cut because his very high tertiary DIP puts me over the 12K threshold while adding additional stats to the Voyage. A weaker tertiary skill wouldn't have done that.
Generally, I like something in the 800-900 pt range. Its a healthy amount of bonus stats without sacrificing something at the top end. There are some crew that frequently fail to make the cut because the tertiary is too weak. Thrax is worse than Sisko but most of that worse is in his tertiary. Sisko makes every SECDIP voyage I do but Thrax almost never does unless he has a good trait.
I see what you mean, that is interesting. I guess I am doing the same to some degree without thinking about it by being aware of the third skill on crew to make micro adjustments. Like if I need a little more security I use Proto Barclay with his third security skill rather than Leo Da Vinci who has a third skill of medicine. Do you find that having a score 11,700 for your science secondary hurt your voyage length? I try to keep both primary and secondary at 12,000 - 12,500. Were I running that voyage I would have made some small adjustments to take a little away from engineering and medicine and add to command to bring it up above 5,000 by maybe replacing caretaker with someone else and also tried to get science a little higher.
Also for fun I have been trying to trait match as much as possible while making sure it does not hurt my voyage length by immortalizing high voyage legendaries that also have many traits. It gives me some additional goals to shoot for and is great for making the starting am higher on voyages I extend to fill up the day and have the recall be at night while I sleep.