TP/WRG monetizing voyage bug
Drone_one
✭✭✭
in The Bridge
I had an interesting exchange with CS over the holidays which leads me to believe that TP/WRG is trying to monetize the long standing voyage bug instead of working on a fix. This is my interpretation, but at the very least, I figured I could use a second opinion from the forums and draw attention to the issue. Below I will try to explain in general terms the gist of the discussion that has wider relevance from the community (and hopefully stay within the forum guidelines of not sharing exact details of interaction with CS).
I encountered the usual voyage bug where the dilemma would not pop up and the voyage was stuck. I guess all of us have encountered this over the years and I contacted CS to rescue the voyage. I wasn't necessarily going for a long voyage and had only revived it a few times since I got Part 1 and 2 of Champion of the People at 2 and 4 hrs. All I wanted from CS was the rewards I already had and did not actually ask for Voyage exclusive crew. But CS came back to me offering that I can choose any voyage exclusive crew (plus a bunch of other stuff like 10x premium packs etc) in exchange for 1500 dilithium. Some further back and forth with CS revealed that this was a decision taken by TP/WRG management to make sure players can get voyage exclusive crew, since there is no guarantee that the next long voyage will not get stuck again.
On the face of it, it seems TP/WRG are trying to help the player, but I have a problem with them asking for dilithium (and hence in essence monetizing a bug) in the name of helping players penalized by a bug they have refused to fix even after 2 years.
These are my 2 cents. Just thought this warranted a wider discussion.
I encountered the usual voyage bug where the dilemma would not pop up and the voyage was stuck. I guess all of us have encountered this over the years and I contacted CS to rescue the voyage. I wasn't necessarily going for a long voyage and had only revived it a few times since I got Part 1 and 2 of Champion of the People at 2 and 4 hrs. All I wanted from CS was the rewards I already had and did not actually ask for Voyage exclusive crew. But CS came back to me offering that I can choose any voyage exclusive crew (plus a bunch of other stuff like 10x premium packs etc) in exchange for 1500 dilithium. Some further back and forth with CS revealed that this was a decision taken by TP/WRG management to make sure players can get voyage exclusive crew, since there is no guarantee that the next long voyage will not get stuck again.
On the face of it, it seems TP/WRG are trying to help the player, but I have a problem with them asking for dilithium (and hence in essence monetizing a bug) in the name of helping players penalized by a bug they have refused to fix even after 2 years.
- Ordinarily, I could get a full set of voyage exclusive crew by running a long voyage using voyage revival tokens. This can easily be done without spending any real money (or dilithium) by saving up on threshold rewards from events and the occasional tokens we get from care packages and maintenance. But the voyage bug makes this somewhat hard and 2 of my 3 attempts over the last year failed because of a stuck voyage.
- I hear from @Shan that TP/WRG are working on a fix and are close, but in all seriousness its been nearly 2 years and its getting a bit ridiculous. Especially considering that they haven't really introduced anything new or exciting lately so I don't know where their resources are going (but that's a gripe for another thread).
- Not disputing the need for an interim solution, I do think asking for dilithium because of a know bug that TP/WRG have not fixed leaves a bad taste. If this was to become the modus operandi, what stops TP/WRG from intentionally introducing random bugs and then asking for dilithium or money to get around it!!
- Simply put, this is TP/WRGs fault and if someone is penalized it should be them and not the player since they are not at fault.
- More constructively, at the very least there should be an option for using voyage tokens instead of dilithium and also not 1, and the player should be offered 6 voyage exclusive crew that they could realistically get from running a long voyage in the absence of the bug. This could be further refined to be 2 crew that drop from the 3-part dilemmas (since you can only choose 1 out of 2 exclusives from each one) and all 4 from 2-part dilemmas.
- I also though the earlier solution, where CS would return all the dilithium/voyage tokens spent (they only refunded the last one for me under the new policy) was more fair. Correct, no guarantee that I would get the voyage exclusive crew if the voyage got stuck before any of the Part 2s 3s sprung up, but at least I would get all the resources spend on the voyage, while getting the accumulated rewards as compensation for time wasted.
These are my 2 cents. Just thought this warranted a wider discussion.
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When I was trying for voyage exclusive McCoy, my voyage froze at 64 hours. At that point, it was still DB and the CS Representative was kind enough to offer me McCoy when I explained I was trying for him in particular. I then just recalled the voyage.
I do not like the charge of 1500 dilithium for a voyage exclusive crew you might have obtained, if not for a known glitch that has been happening for quite some time now. I do get there are no guarantees on a voyage, unless you are willing to run them all (and even then it might freeze). However, in a situation like that, I’d think they could remove the appropriate number of revival tokens and send you the appropriate rewards.
1. My guess is that this is less about monetizing the voyage bug, but more of a preventive measure taken by the company to discourage players from looking for a way to exploit the bug for positive gains while they work on a permanent repair. I'm not entirely sure how that would work, but given we've had multiple scandals where players and player-created addons have exploited the game, it seems putting this in place might just be to try and limit that from being explored. Even under that assumption 1,500 seems really steep to me, but on a basic level, I can understand it, or at least understand how it may have come about.
2. I am less bothered by by this CS solution as I am with the absence of choice. I think if CS gave you a choice, this 1,500 dilithium solution or some variation on free recall/revival (the old standard solution with a dash of chronitons sprinkled in) I would have no problem with this, again with the understanding that I feel 1,500 is too high.
3. My guess is the price is set to 1,500 because that is how much SR are sold for in faction stores. We all agree that that price is too high and in this case this is not just about the voyage exclusive SR but also represents an entire voyage, so 1,500 feels especially punitive to the players. I would set the price for this package around 650, or the price of a standard 10x pull. It may require further adjustment from that price point, but that is where I would start if it was up to me.
I considered to try one soon as I assumed that there was nothing to lose, but I certainly will not under these new circumstances.
And yes, part of my reaction is driven by the general frustration about the recent behavior of TP/WRG - lack of any significant gameplay updates since they introduced skirmishes, no real deals over the holidays, initial dismissive attitude towards Adira art change and issues I am having about getting compensation because I didn't take the right screenshot.
I guess my feeling is that the game is moving more and more towards money grab with random giveaways when things get they think too many people are annoyed. And this seemed to be another element of that overall drift.
And of course, this has been a known problem for a long time. The response for this bug should be to refund all voyage supply tokens and dil. used to extend the voyage. If the person has screenshots of rewards gained, return of all those rewards. Otherwise, a formula for refunding based on the length of voyage that would be equivalent to what one would get on a voyage of that length.
Exploited of course, this is what puts pressure on them to fix the bug, right now they have been trying to remove the pressure that makes them fix a bug, Why? So they can ignore fixing the bug.
Exactly this, and more eloquent than my ramblings
Agreed. And to note an additional thought, i saw a comment on this a while back that revival tokens were never meant to be used as a stored currency to run and revive a lengthy voyage. In concept, Di was supposed to be used to revive and extend a voyage. They did not anticipate that players would hoard tokens and then use a stack for a lengthy voyage. So my interpretation to agree with the 1500di cost of crew perspective, would also be to add this “option” being offered gets you to spend di on the voyage that has been extended and is now frozen. Offer the voyage crew and you may open your di wallet.
Edit additional thought.. if you are actively playing more often then not when your voyage is running low the yellow warning sign fails to show up. It is just suddenly red and failed voyage. This too is a longstanding bug never fixed. Could this be a way to force revival tokens usage? Since you dont get the proper notice of low AM.
However, I quite regularly extended my voyages with dil. Usually going about 20 hours. After voyage supply tokens, I almost never go past 8 hours. The voyage supply tokens caused this. I wanted to maximize their use.
But now the only, reason I would extend any voyage is if I wanted to try to get some of the random crew in the portal. Frankly, the components one gets after the six hour dilemma are all 2* components. If you have been playing for a while but still are leveling crew every week, the only 2* component you need is the database. The incentive tips to only do 6 hour voyages. But, then you lose out on honor and Chron. I think voyages of 8-10 hours are pobably the best way to go. But if you are more concerned about components then 6 hours is the best choice.
Edit: I should mention stuck voyages, cause one to give up on trying to get all the copies one needs to immortalize the 3 part crew. Instead it is much easier to just use a Superrare citation. Of course now we end up losing a citation on something we could do through the voyage if they did not get stuck.
But, you still need the first copy through voyages.
Ditto. 👍🏻🖖🏻 Lol.
This is too dramatic a shift to blame on luck. I wonder if there was a change in my voyage behavior? Or maybe it's been better mitigated on some platforms, and not others. (I'm on Android.)
Starport
I have no data to back this up, but it seems like they get stuck on longer voyages. My guess is something about transmitting all the voyage text and possibly combined with weak internet signals. I've never had a stuck voyage under 10 hours. So as long as you're not extending you're ok. It's when you start to extend the voyages that you run into problems.
Eighteen hours after I sent a note to Support, I got an offer to get all my tokens back (10) and nothing from the voyage, or get all the rewards gained so far and get one token back.
I went with keeping the rewards. Want 2 of the SRs I had gotten already— and get SOMETHING from my wait for the stuck voyage (been 28 hrs and counting since it got stuck). If they don’t unstick me by reset time tonight, I’ll also miss the voyage daily because it’s been stuck since yesterday morning. Lovely.
And then I have to save up tokens for another couple of months to make an extended voyage to try for Worf or Picard again (just needed Part 3 this time; I’m a bit annoyed to miss it this time).
It’d be cool if they fixed this bug— or made it a little easier to get the third part of a voyage exclusive crew within a normal 8-10 hr voyage.
And if I’m reading this right, the expectation is to use dilithium for extended voyages; tokens were intended to be used for some other reason? What would that even cost? And to make a few 3-part exclusive crew on extended voyages...? Lame.
Edit: voyage finally recalled, and while not nearly as productive as I had hoped it’d be when I was at 8hrs, I did get a token back and an additional SR crew I actually needed. — And in time to send another voyage out to get the daily achievement (and add to the current temporary achievement).
I assumed this was standard procedure,.at least when you're going for a third dilemma. Sad to see that they're trying to make players pay for their bug instead of being magnanimous about it.
I don't think it's ever been standard procedure. When a similar thing happened to me, I got a random 4* and the last revival token that I had used. The voyage failed at 1 day and a half and the only reason I had kept reviving it was that I wanted a Colonel Worf. They did insta-recall it though, so I didn't have to wait for it to come back, which I appreciated at the time.
Last week I did a voyage to get all dilemmas. I had enough tokens to complete without using dilithium. My second last dilemma was ‘A life alone part 2’ which I picked Jannar. The voyage log however showed this....
Then after I ran out of antimatter it wouldn’t let me refresh (the bug when you run out of dilemmas) even though I still hadn’t gotten the real ‘A higher duty part 3’
So when I emailed support to tell them this and that I didn’t think it was the ‘usual’ voyage issue, something different, they returned all I had collected on the voyage instantly to my inventory +1 Dr. Leonard McCoy and an extra revive token 🖖
Proud member of Patterns of Force
Captain Level 99
Played since January 2017
TP: Do better!!!
That's good to know in case the same thing should happen again to other players!
But in my case and Katla's case we didn't run through all dilemmas before the voyage got stuck, so there was no way to know when exactly we would have gotten the card we wanted. Thinking of it now, maybe I should have offered them 10-15 revival tokens in exchange for one copy of Worf?
The thing that was weirdest for me was when I got one dilemma but it showed up as another in the log lol... never heard of that happening before 🖖
Proud member of Patterns of Force
Captain Level 99
Played since January 2017
TP: Do better!!!
I think I've seen it mentioned in a post in the Engineering Room a few days ago (was that your post?
Yes it was my post
Proud member of Patterns of Force
Captain Level 99
Played since January 2017
TP: Do better!!!
Yup they did this to me last year when my voyage got stuck with only 2 dilemmas left. And late in the voyage my log would show I completed a different dilemma than I actually did, which I assume messed up my chances of ever actually finishing those 3 parters. I have 40 voyage revival tokens saved now and no reason to try and waste them again so I guess they’ll just keep collecting.
I have put a lot of thought into this issue, more than I would like to admit, and more than it deserves, but I see some inherent issues with these solutions that tips the scales of equity pretty significantly away from the player. Admittedly, my view is a player view, but at the end of the day if you want a successful game the developers need to concern themselves with the players views, so I go forward unashamed of my perspective, but willing to try to see other views.
When the scales of equity are correctly balanced in our game, everything is working as it was intended to work. The players are using resources to accomplish goals and offsetting time for dilithium (and real monies) when and where budgets allow. This provides for the MOST equitable outcome because everything is working to everyone's expectations. The problem occurs when things stop functioning as intended requiring developers and players to resolve the issues in the most equitable way possible given the specifics of their circumstance. For example: There should be a sliding scale for rewards based upon how long the voyage went before the crash occurred. A voyage that went for 61 hours would have a different set of rewards form a voyage that went 6 hours.
So, let's establish a hypothetical voyage crash to demonstrate the issues with the above solutions based upon what many have described. You are 58 hours and 53 minutes into a voyage seeking an exclusive crews when your antimatter runs out. You also have been able to eliminate a few dilemmas by picking a choice that prevented part-2 on unneeded rewards you were not after. You are seven minutes from the last 3 remaining dilemmas and they are all in a 3-part series giving you the crew you were seeking to obtain. You know exactly how far there is to go and you have plenty of resources to get you there. In addition to this, you have spent real money to pay for a campaign this month and you plan your timing to allow you to complete the last dilemma just after the start of a new calendar day. This will let you to get credit for a dilemma on one day, and gives you almost 48 hours to get back allowing you credit for the next day. You may not have to sacrifice any lost time. Likewise, your fleet is trying to encourage members to complete their daily missions so everyone can get their ISM for the new feature and you can complete 100% of all 'dailies' to support your fleet. You have no control over the fact that the game is only just now coming to this series and it crashes. You need help. You submit a ticket and about 30 hours later get a response and they offer 3 possible solutions. Option 1: Refund all spent tokens at the cost of what the voyage has earned, essentially starting over. Option 2: Recalling the voyage from its current place and keep only the rewards that have been earned. And you can elect to participate in Option 3: For 1500 Dilithium you can get the exclusive member you were after, plus a generous bonus to chronitions, credits, honour, and some randomly chosen super rare characters.
(BTW: the last 2 tickets I submitted I had to wait the following times for responses:
Issue 1: < 24 hours, 24 hours, 3 days, and 4 days. Total 9 days.
Issue 2: 31 hours, 24 hours, 30 hours. Total 85 hours.)
This is a pretty reasonable scenario, and all of these options require the player to sacrifice more than they would have had to sacrifice if the game had continued to proceed as expected by the player and the developers. So let's explore (from my perspective) how these options poorly balance the scales of equity.
I try to weigh the scale based upon the option(s) provided due to a failure, against what would have been the likely outcome if there had not been a failure.
OPTION 1: (Refund for all earned rewards) This tips the scales significantly away from the player because it completely disregards all the time and energy spent on the effort of getting the voyage to where it failed. It usually requires the player to log in more frequently because you need to revive the voyage at one point and do the dilemma at another. They rarely align at the same time. Where does "wiping the slate clean" leave the player feeling like they accomplished anything for their efforts? And what about the length of the voyage before one had to start using revival tokens (6, 8, 10+ hours)? Surely those earnings should not be lost. This is just a poor option. More should be offered than just a 'do over.'
OPTION 2: (Recall Voyage with only the rewards earned) The scales are tipped away from the player here due to ignoring the potential outcome of the voyage had it not failed. If you had been able to finish the series, as you set out to do, you would have naturally earned more honour, chronitions, and credits beyond the bug point, whether that was part of your goal or not. By the law of averages you would have likely gotten more character cards, including super rare's. Not to mention the exclusive crew you were after. And the sliding scale tips farther away from the player the longer the voyage. Now you must walk away from all of that. Where you were only 3 dilemmas away from your goal, you go back to potentially 36 dilemmas away again. Where you were only 4 hours and 7 minutes away from your goal, you are now potentially 60+ hours away again. And you have to wait until you rebuild enough resources to make the run again. How long will that take? The longer the voyage the more resources spent. Why would someone want to turn around when they finally got within grasp of where they wanted to go?
OPTION 3: Oh, and you still want the character you were after? Well, the only way to accomplish that is to agree to a cost of 1500 dilithium, and as a condolence 'dev' will also boost chronitions, honour, credits, and some randomly chosen cards to help ease the pain. Again, an expense you would not have had to sacrifice if the game/voyage had continued to perform as intended. AS EXPECTED.
And no option addresses that you likely are behind in your campaign and was left unable to help your fleet due to the time it took to resolve the issue. Things that you will recover from, but things you would not have had to deal with if the game had not malfunctioned. Why aren't they part of the consideration?
So, ... If someone accepts the above options as offered for a game failure, that was no fault of the player, it is the player that must sacrifice things they would not have had to sacrifice if the game performed as expected? And the primary option to obtain your exclusive crew is a cost of 1500 dilithium? What algorithm came to this conclusion!?
It is inevitable that the player will likely interpret this as an attempt by TP/WRG to monetize a bug they know exists!
If you are a player and find yourself faced with these options, please consider carefully what you are sacrificing before you agree. Maybe ask for something different.
If you are a developer, please consider this opinion and look for answers that better balance the scales of equity for the player and you.
"Regarding the Voyage stuck bug, we would like to share some good news. Progress has been made in finding the cause of the issue! We hope to be able to implement a solution in game soon."
https://forum.disruptorbeam.com/stt/discussion/16807/some-star-trek-timelines-news-and-star-trek-day#latest
For context, here's my previous experience:
Months ago my voyage crashed before at last dilemma I needed. I received what I considered a very reasonable response from my customer service ticket: the contents of my voyage to date and the last voyage specific crew I had left to obtain if the voyage had been able to continue. That's fair. Without the bug, I would have obtained the crew, with no cost to myself.
I cannot comprehend the rationale for now demanding dilithium in exchange for the voyage only crew. I don't like ascribing shady intent to things like this, but I can't help but wonder if it's a way to discourage the hoarding of voyage revival tokens for the purpose of a long voyage that guarantees the voyage exclusive crew. I know I'm thinking twice about doing another such voyage -- a second thought that is only prompted by the combination of the bug and the current cs response, both of which are out of my control.
This issue needs to be addressed. It creates inequity between players and, as The Quiggler suggests, between TP/WRG and the players. If there's a new policy, make it clear. Players need to know what we should expect when the bug crashes a voyager so we can make informed decisions about the use of our resources.
This is not done to "monetize" the issue, it is an attempt to provide a solution for a specific scenario, while preventing abuse in making PS requests a gateway for obtaining Voyage exclusive crew.
Encountering the bug while trying to collect Voyage exclusive crew is frustrating, it does not happen each time, and there is the option to try again. That does not diminish the fact that it is an inconvenience and provides a negative gameplay experience.
I do not have an update regarding a potential fix, I will continue to bring it up.
Your team has been aware of this issue for well over two years now. Please consider devoting some time to finally resolving it.