Everyone here is making valid points and that’s great but how about I try and steer the conversation back to the main point of this particular discussion and talk some more about Discovery. The mid-season finale has finally occurred so I’ve shut my CBS All Access down and I’m not entirely sure if I’ll restart it in January. From what I’ve seen so far, Disco is finally incorporating more and more elements of actual Star Trek into itself but I’m just not sure if it’s enough. They still seem to be stuck on this idea, as previously mentioned by others, of trying to be “edgy” or make things “more realistic” and that’s just a crappy idea. Star Trek ISN’T realistic; it’s freakin’ sci-fi and one of the primary points of the series, each and every version, whether you liked them or not, from TOS to Enterprise, was idealism, not realism. Humans, Vulcans, and others all striving together to explore the galaxy and better themselves. I mean, come on people, Picard, Kirk, Janeway, Sisko, and Archer all make speeches about this at one time or another. I’m pretty sure Picard makes several, often directed at Q, who is a stand-in for the audience. So far, the closest Disco has come was his mid-season finale and the time travel episode, but I have to rule out the time travel episode because it didn’t have any stirring speeches. The finale had one, and while halfway decent, it came off as being more manipulative rather than encouraging. Of course, others have suggested to just give it time. That the first season is always the worst and the writers and actors have to get use to their roles and the show and all. Well, that’s true, but then again, I can go back and look at all those first seasons of TNG, DS9, and Voyager and others and while those first seasons are often a bit awkward, a little clumsy, and sometimes even a bit downright boring or silly, they still all possess elements of essential Star Trek. Darn fine writing, great acting, hope, idealism, and the spirit of exploration, and not a gosh darn bit of effing realism and its train of anti-hero-villainous-actions-done-for-the-“right”-reasons or self-interested manipulations and the resulting cover-ups that brutally ensue. I guess my rambling point here is that Star Trek is NOT The Walking Dead or anything anywhere near it, nor should it ever be. Finally, Discovery has me disappointed also for purely numerical reasons. Nine episodes. That’s it. Nine effing episodes and we’re at the mid-season finale. I mean, come on people. Even Enterprise had what, 23, 26 episodes per season, till they got canceled and had to cut their final season in half. My guess here is that these people are spending way too much money on things like detailed Klingon space suits that the audience only sees for 5 seconds and high paid actors that are usually in movies (cough* Doug Jones, Jason Issacs *cough), instead of actual production. Maybe if more time and money was spent on making a good Star Trek show instead of trying to show off to the other studios or draw in new audiences even though you already have a dedicated super base, then maybe we’d get a lot more episodes and even better writing. Or at the very least, given enough of it, it might become more palatable to those of us that are not overly impressed thus far. Ok, my rant is through for now. Have at it.
Weirdly enough, I’m also Vulcan Housewife. Also, RNGesus hates me, like really, REALLY hates me.
The big problem I have with the rednecks throwing this argument out there is that it makes a conversation about actual flaws in a show or movie impossible to have. Sorry for the politics for a minute, but it's like 2010 where the small minority having an issue with Obama being black made it really hard to be critical of any policy without being called a racist by some groups of people. Some folks racially charge things that really have no place being racially charged, as is evidenced particularly in this thread.
Its possible to criticize the show, you just need to be descriptive without relying on non-arguments like PC culture. SMG isn't exactly winning me over as Burnham. She's less compelling than, well, everyone else. At least up until Ep9. She was pretty cool in that. It could be the writing isn't helping her along. Enterprise and Voyager had more than their fair share of rough episodes and some of the cast wasn't always up to the task of selling it.
Similarly with Obama, there's no need to criticize him for being a secret socialist Kenyan Muslim when you can criticize him for being a centre-right corporatist who gave money to the banks and expanded the surveillance state and drone warfare.
Everyone here is making valid points and that’s great but how about I try and steer the conversation back to the main point of this particular discussion and talk some more about Discovery. The mid-season finale has finally occurred so I’ve shut my CBS All Access down and I’m not entirely sure if I’ll restart it in January. From what I’ve seen so far, Disco is finally incorporating more and more elements of actual Star Trek into itself but I’m just not sure if it’s enough. They still seem to be stuck on this idea, as previously mentioned by others, of trying to be “edgy” or make things “more realistic” and that’s just a crappy idea. Star Trek ISN’T realistic; it’s freakin’ sci-fi and one of the primary points of the series, each and every version, whether you liked them or not, from TOS to Enterprise, was idealism, not realism. Humans, Vulcans, and others all striving together to explore the galaxy and better themselves. I mean, come on people, Picard, Kirk, Janeway, Sisko, and Archer all make speeches about this at one time or another. I’m pretty sure Picard makes several, often directed at Q, who is a stand-in for the audience. So far, the closest Disco has come was his mid-season finale and the time travel episode, but I have to rule out the time travel episode because it didn’t have any stirring speeches. The finale had one, and while halfway decent, it came off as being more manipulative rather than encouraging. Of course, others have suggested to just give it time. That the first season is always the worst and the writers and actors have to get use to their roles and the show and all. Well, that’s true, but then again, I can go back and look at all those first seasons of TNG, DS9, and Voyager and others and while those first seasons are often a bit awkward, a little clumsy, and sometimes even a bit downright boring or silly, they still all possess elements of essential Star Trek. Darn fine writing, great acting, hope, idealism, and the spirit of exploration, and not a gosh darn bit of effing realism and its train of anti-hero-villainous-actions-done-for-the-“right”-reasons or self-interested manipulations and the resulting cover-ups that brutally ensue. I guess my rambling point here is that Star Trek is NOT The Walking Dead or anything anywhere near it, nor should it ever be. Finally, Discovery has me disappointed also for purely numerical reasons. Nine episodes. That’s it. Nine effing episodes and we’re at the mid-season finale. I mean, come on people. Even Enterprise had what, 23, 26 episodes per season, till they got canceled and had to cut their final season in half. My guess here is that these people are spending way too much money on things like detailed Klingon space suits that the audience only sees for 5 seconds and high paid actors that are usually in movies (cough* Doug Jones, Jason Issacs *cough), instead of actual production. Maybe if more time and money was spent on making a good Star Trek show instead of trying to show off to the other studios or draw in new audiences even though you already have a dedicated super base, then maybe we’d get a lot more episodes and even better writing. Or at the very least, given enough of it, it might become more palatable to those of us that are not overly impressed thus far. Ok, my rant is through for now. Have at it.
Just a small point. Enterprise did not cut their final season in half. Season 4 is a full season of 22 episodes with arguably the worst series finale, but not its worst 'fan service' episode. They rushed an end to an arc, but it was a full season.
Everyone here is making valid points and that’s great but how about I try and steer the conversation back to the main point of this particular discussion and talk some more about Discovery. The mid-season finale has finally occurred so I’ve shut my CBS All Access down and I’m not entirely sure if I’ll restart it in January. From what I’ve seen so far, Disco is finally incorporating more and more elements of actual Star Trek into itself but I’m just not sure if it’s enough. They still seem to be stuck on this idea, as previously mentioned by others, of trying to be “edgy” or make things “more realistic” and that’s just a crappy idea. Star Trek ISN’T realistic; it’s freakin’ sci-fi and one of the primary points of the series, each and every version, whether you liked them or not, from TOS to Enterprise, was idealism, not realism. Humans, Vulcans, and others all striving together to explore the galaxy and better themselves. I mean, come on people, Picard, Kirk, Janeway, Sisko, and Archer all make speeches about this at one time or another. I’m pretty sure Picard makes several, often directed at Q, who is a stand-in for the audience. So far, the closest Disco has come was his mid-season finale and the time travel episode, but I have to rule out the time travel episode because it didn’t have any stirring speeches. The finale had one, and while halfway decent, it came off as being more manipulative rather than encouraging. Of course, others have suggested to just give it time. That the first season is always the worst and the writers and actors have to get use to their roles and the show and all. Well, that’s true, but then again, I can go back and look at all those first seasons of TNG, DS9, and Voyager and others and while those first seasons are often a bit awkward, a little clumsy, and sometimes even a bit downright boring or silly, they still all possess elements of essential Star Trek. Darn fine writing, great acting, hope, idealism, and the spirit of exploration, and not a gosh darn bit of effing realism and its train of anti-hero-villainous-actions-done-for-the-“right”-reasons or self-interested manipulations and the resulting cover-ups that brutally ensue. I guess my rambling point here is that Star Trek is NOT The Walking Dead or anything anywhere near it, nor should it ever be. Finally, Discovery has me disappointed also for purely numerical reasons. Nine episodes. That’s it. Nine effing episodes and we’re at the mid-season finale. I mean, come on people. Even Enterprise had what, 23, 26 episodes per season, till they got canceled and had to cut their final season in half. My guess here is that these people are spending way too much money on things like detailed Klingon space suits that the audience only sees for 5 seconds and high paid actors that are usually in movies (cough* Doug Jones, Jason Issacs *cough), instead of actual production. Maybe if more time and money was spent on making a good Star Trek show instead of trying to show off to the other studios or draw in new audiences even though you already have a dedicated super base, then maybe we’d get a lot more episodes and even better writing. Or at the very least, given enough of it, it might become more palatable to those of us that are not overly impressed thus far. Ok, my rant is through for now. Have at it.
Just a small point. Enterprise did not cut their final season in half. Season 4 is a full season of 22 episodes with arguably the worst series finale, but not its worst 'fan service' episode. They rushed an end to an arc, but it was a full season.
Whoops. I apologize for my mistake in that. They only cut the season by 2 episodes having 22 instead of the usual 24. I guess I was thinking of another series, but I believe my point is still valid. Thanks for the correction.
Weirdly enough, I’m also Vulcan Housewife. Also, RNGesus hates me, like really, REALLY hates me.
This is the problem, everyone in America is so concerned with being PC that they have quotas to fill so that they don't appear "intolerant".
The big problem I have with the rednecks throwing this argument out there is that it makes a conversation about actual flaws in a show or movie impossible to have. Sorry for the politics for a minute, but it's like 2010 where the small minority having an issue with Obama being black made it really hard to be critical of any policy without being called a racist by some groups of people. Some folks racially charge things that really have no place being racially charged, as is evidenced particularly in this thread.
I don't there there are any rednecks on these forums. People have a problem with STD because it's garbage and follows the now mandatory SJW casting requirements at the expense of the show. People didn't have a problem with Obama being black, they had a problem with him making the economy even worse than it already was. He was a bad president just like STD is a bad tv show let alone worthy of the title "Star Trek".
This is the problem, everyone in America is so concerned with being PC that they have quotas to fill so that they don't appear "intolerant".
The big problem I have with the rednecks throwing this argument out there is that it makes a conversation about actual flaws in a show or movie impossible to have. Sorry for the politics for a minute, but it's like 2010 where the small minority having an issue with Obama being black made it really hard to be critical of any policy without being called a racist by some groups of people. Some folks racially charge things that really have no place being racially charged, as is evidenced particularly in this thread.
I don't there there are any rednecks on these forums. People have a problem with STD because it's garbage and follows the now mandatory SJW casting requirements at the expense of the show. People didn't have a problem with Obama being black, they had a problem with him making the economy even worse than it already was. He was a bad president just like STD is a bad tv show let alone worthy of the title "Star Trek".
There are some rednecks here -- and they may not identify as such but if it quacks it's a duck.
The whole quota thing is a non-issue/non-argument when it comes to curing the STD. If the casting racial and other makeup is why you've got a problem with the show, you've made my point in, well... spades. Your argument of such makes it very difficult to get above your noise to get to actual flaws in writing, content, continuity, tone, etc, things that are in the DNA of Star Trek no matter who is in front of the camera.
And yes, some people had problems with Obama being black and made noise of such. Some on national TV. I'm related to some of them unfortunately, and there was some national news coverage on some of them. And their noise made it easy to point at anyone with a legitimate concern as being with them in an attempt to squelch criticism.
As an aside, with the exception of being African American and Asian in the 60s, I have a real problem when people of any stripe feel that they can identify with only characters of their tribe. (LeVar Burton and Whoopi G talk about actually finding some self-worth in seeing Uhura and how she was portrayed at a time when they were second class citizens). And that includes the white arugment above.
I'm not African American, but i identify with Sisko and resonate to him more than the other captains. Why? Shared values with the character in many cases. (though not sure I have the gumption to do the Pale Moonlight), a love of cooking especially for my daughter, among other things.
I feel that I don't share values with much of the Discovery crew, nor with the Starfleet at large as portrayed.
This is the problem, everyone in America is so concerned with being PC that they have quotas to fill so that they don't appear "intolerant".
The big problem I have with the rednecks throwing this argument out there is that it makes a conversation about actual flaws in a show or movie impossible to have. Sorry for the politics for a minute, but it's like 2010 where the small minority having an issue with Obama being black made it really hard to be critical of any policy without being called a racist by some groups of people. Some folks racially charge things that really have no place being racially charged, as is evidenced particularly in this thread.
I don't there there are any rednecks on these forums. People have a problem with STD because it's garbage and follows the now mandatory SJW casting requirements at the expense of the show. People didn't have a problem with Obama being black, they had a problem with him making the economy even worse than it already was. He was a bad president just like STD is a bad tv show let alone worthy of the title "Star Trek".
There are some rednecks here -- and they may not identify as such but if it quacks it's a duck.
The whole quota thing is a non-issue/non-argument when it comes to curing the STD. If the casting racial and other makeup is why you've got a problem with the show, you've made my point in, well... spades. Your argument of such makes it very difficult to get above your noise to get to actual flaws in writing, content, continuity, tone, etc, things that are in the DNA of Star Trek no matter who is in front of the camera.
And yes, some people had problems with Obama being black and made noise of such. Some on national TV. I'm related to some of them unfortunately, and there was some national news coverage on some of them. And their noise made it easy to point at anyone with a legitimate concern as being with them in an attempt to squelch criticism.
As an aside, with the exception of being African American and Asian in the 60s, I have a real problem when people of any stripe feel that they can identify with only characters of their tribe. (LeVar Burton and Whoopi G talk about actually finding some self-worth in seeing Uhura and how she was portrayed at a time when they were second class citizens). And that includes the white arugment above.
I'm not African American, but i identify with Sisko and resonate to him more than the other captains. Why? Shared values with the character in many cases. (though not sure I have the gumption to do the Pale Moonlight), a love of cooking especially for my daughter, among other things.
I feel that I don't share values with much of the Discovery crew, nor with the Starfleet at large as portrayed.
Isn’t that a primary problem that some of us, myself included, are having with STD? That is, that the Discovery seems to have an entirely different set of values than what we’ve always known to exist within Starfleet. I also identified heavily with Sisko because of his personality and values and to be honest, his obstinacy. I’m finding it very hard to identify with any of the Disco crew. The closest I’ve come is Captain Phillapa and Cadet Tilly but let’s be honest here, they haven’t had much screen time.
Weirdly enough, I’m also Vulcan Housewife. Also, RNGesus hates me, like really, REALLY hates me.
I don't there there are any rednecks on these forums. People have a problem with STD because it's garbage and follows the now mandatory SJW casting requirements at the expense of the show. People didn't have a problem with Obama being black, they had a problem with him making the economy even worse than it already was. He was a bad president just like STD is a bad tv show let alone worthy of the title "Star Trek".
And what SJW casting requirements is the show using? The ones where most of the cast is white? The problem with the whole quota argument is that it implies that only white dudes are allowed to screw up. You never hear people say when a white dude acts poorly, the role should've gone to a talented female or person of colour.
People had a problem with Obama because he was black. There's a still a substantial portion of the US population who thinks he's a Muslim. He left the US economy in much better shape than the one he started his term with.
On a similar but slightly different note, I’ve been watching the Orville and I have to say that, even with the comedy, it’s a way better Star Trek than Discovery. Concerning the spirit of things I have to say, The Orville IS Star Trek, while Discovery is just World of Warcraft in space crossed with a bit of The Handmaid’s Tale and the mostly crappy parts of The Walking Dead. Maybe I’m being harsh and things will improve and I can finally start thinking of Discovery as Star Trek rather than the most fitting of acronyms, STD, but until that time arrives, I’ll keep watching the Orville and frankly, I suggest you do the same.
Weirdly enough, I’m also Vulcan Housewife. Also, RNGesus hates me, like really, REALLY hates me.
On a similar but slightly different note, I’ve been watching the Orville and I have to say that, even with the comedy, it’s a way better Star Trek than Discovery. Concerning the spirit of things I have to say, The Orville IS Star Trek, while Discovery is just World of Warcraft in space crossed with a bit of The Handmaid’s Tale and the mostly crappy parts of The Walking Dead. Maybe I’m being harsh and things will improve and I can finally start thinking of Discovery as Star Trek rather than the most fitting of acronyms, STD, but until that time arrives, I’ll keep watching the Orville and frankly, I suggest you do the same.
It's terrible. I stopped watching STD after episode 4. The Orville was cute and it made me laugh a few times but I walked away after a few episodes too. Mainly because I know Orville is a phase which will be canceled within a season or two and go the way of Firefly or Earth 2.
On a similar but slightly different note, I’ve been watching the Orville and I have to say that, even with the comedy, it’s a way better Star Trek than Discovery. Concerning the spirit of things I have to say, The Orville IS Star Trek, while Discovery is just World of Warcraft in space crossed with a bit of The Handmaid’s Tale and the mostly crappy parts of The Walking Dead. Maybe I’m being harsh and things will improve and I can finally start thinking of Discovery as Star Trek rather than the most fitting of acronyms, STD, but until that time arrives, I’ll keep watching the Orville and frankly, I suggest you do the same.
It's terrible. I stopped watching STD after episode 4. The Orville was cute and it made me laugh a few times but I walked away after a few episodes too. Mainly because I know Orville is a phase which will be canceled within a season or two and go the way of Firefly or Earth 2.
Well, at least the Orville is worth watching, whether it ends up being shortlived or not. Pretty sure they just got renewed for a second season, btw.
Weirdly enough, I’m also Vulcan Housewife. Also, RNGesus hates me, like really, REALLY hates me.
What ever your favourite series of Trek is you'll always compare it to the others. I myself have a soft spot for TNG. I was gutted it when it got cancelled and couldn't warm to DS9 at the time because it was out with the old and in with the new and I couldn't accept it then a few years later gave voyager a go when it came out.
Despite not giving Enterprise a fair shake and dismissing it as the worst Trek to ever be made I recently binge watched it and found I rather liked the series(Bar the intro music and final two episodes) and recently started to watch DS9 .
My point is some times time has to pass to truly appreciate how good a series really is I decided not to rush to judgment on Discovery the way I did with DS9 and Enterprise and I've enjoyed Discovery so far. So far Discovery has left me with a lot of questions and look forward to see they're answered. Don't fight it resistance is futile.
What ever your favourite series of Trek is you'll always compare it to the others. I myself have a soft spot for TNG. I was gutted it when it got cancelled and couldn't warm to DS9 at the time because it was out with the old and in with the new and I couldn't accept it then a few years later gave voyager a go when it came out.
Despite not giving Enterprise a fair shake and dismissing it as the worst Trek to ever be made I recently binge watched it and found I rather liked the series(Bar the intro music and final two episodes) and recently started to watch DS9 .
My point is some times time has to pass to truly appreciate how good a series really is I decided not to rush to judgment on Discovery the way I did with DS9 and Enterprise and I've enjoyed Discovery so far. So far Discovery has left me with a lot of questions and look forward to see they're answered. Don't fight it resistance is futile.
Lol, maybe so. I've got Marvel painted on my forehead right now, so even if Disco had qualities I actually liked, Its going to be a long time before I ever give it another shake.
Coulson lives!
Also its what you want to get out of it that I think is where some folks differ.
I've watched everything including TAS. I've always gone back to all of them except Enterprise. (I tried but I just couldn't and ended up shredding the discs and burning the DVD cases.)
Comments
Its possible to criticize the show, you just need to be descriptive without relying on non-arguments like PC culture. SMG isn't exactly winning me over as Burnham. She's less compelling than, well, everyone else. At least up until Ep9. She was pretty cool in that. It could be the writing isn't helping her along. Enterprise and Voyager had more than their fair share of rough episodes and some of the cast wasn't always up to the task of selling it.
Similarly with Obama, there's no need to criticize him for being a secret socialist Kenyan Muslim when you can criticize him for being a centre-right corporatist who gave money to the banks and expanded the surveillance state and drone warfare.
Just a small point. Enterprise did not cut their final season in half. Season 4 is a full season of 22 episodes with arguably the worst series finale, but not its worst 'fan service' episode. They rushed an end to an arc, but it was a full season.
Whoops. I apologize for my mistake in that. They only cut the season by 2 episodes having 22 instead of the usual 24. I guess I was thinking of another series, but I believe my point is still valid. Thanks for the correction.
The whole quota thing is a non-issue/non-argument when it comes to curing the STD. If the casting racial and other makeup is why you've got a problem with the show, you've made my point in, well... spades. Your argument of such makes it very difficult to get above your noise to get to actual flaws in writing, content, continuity, tone, etc, things that are in the DNA of Star Trek no matter who is in front of the camera.
And yes, some people had problems with Obama being black and made noise of such. Some on national TV. I'm related to some of them unfortunately, and there was some national news coverage on some of them. And their noise made it easy to point at anyone with a legitimate concern as being with them in an attempt to squelch criticism.
As an aside, with the exception of being African American and Asian in the 60s, I have a real problem when people of any stripe feel that they can identify with only characters of their tribe. (LeVar Burton and Whoopi G talk about actually finding some self-worth in seeing Uhura and how she was portrayed at a time when they were second class citizens). And that includes the white arugment above.
I'm not African American, but i identify with Sisko and resonate to him more than the other captains. Why? Shared values with the character in many cases. (though not sure I have the gumption to do the Pale Moonlight), a love of cooking especially for my daughter, among other things.
I feel that I don't share values with much of the Discovery crew, nor with the Starfleet at large as portrayed.
Isn’t that a primary problem that some of us, myself included, are having with STD? That is, that the Discovery seems to have an entirely different set of values than what we’ve always known to exist within Starfleet. I also identified heavily with Sisko because of his personality and values and to be honest, his obstinacy. I’m finding it very hard to identify with any of the Disco crew. The closest I’ve come is Captain Phillapa and Cadet Tilly but let’s be honest here, they haven’t had much screen time.
And what SJW casting requirements is the show using? The ones where most of the cast is white? The problem with the whole quota argument is that it implies that only white dudes are allowed to screw up. You never hear people say when a white dude acts poorly, the role should've gone to a talented female or person of colour.
People had a problem with Obama because he was black. There's a still a substantial portion of the US population who thinks he's a Muslim. He left the US economy in much better shape than the one he started his term with.
Obama did a really good job.....
Anyway back to reality...I agree with Zann STD is crappy for a multitude of reasons.
It's terrible. I stopped watching STD after episode 4. The Orville was cute and it made me laugh a few times but I walked away after a few episodes too. Mainly because I know Orville is a phase which will be canceled within a season or two and go the way of Firefly or Earth 2.
Well, at least the Orville is worth watching, whether it ends up being shortlived or not. Pretty sure they just got renewed for a second season, btw.
Proud member of Patterns of Force
Captain Level 99
Played since January 2017
TP: Do better!!!
And fanbois are gonna love love love.....
Despite not giving Enterprise a fair shake and dismissing it as the worst Trek to ever be made I recently binge watched it and found I rather liked the series(Bar the intro music and final two episodes) and recently started to watch DS9 .
My point is some times time has to pass to truly appreciate how good a series really is I decided not to rush to judgment on Discovery the way I did with DS9 and Enterprise and I've enjoyed Discovery so far. So far Discovery has left me with a lot of questions and look forward to see they're answered. Don't fight it resistance is futile.
Lol, maybe so. I've got Marvel painted on my forehead right now, so even if Disco had qualities I actually liked, Its going to be a long time before I ever give it another shake.
Coulson lives!
Also its what you want to get out of it that I think is where some folks differ.
I've watched everything including TAS. I've always gone back to all of them except Enterprise. (I tried but I just couldn't and ended up shredding the discs and burning the DVD cases.)