Is it time for a FIFTH shuttle?

Prime Lorca

There are over 1,000 crew in the game. Collections are getting bigger. Pools of event bonus crew are getting larger. Players often want more to do with their extensive rosters.

But would this make it too hard for newer players to advance in the game by having to compete with established players who can better use this fifth shuttle? Is there a VIP0 argument against it which may escape me at the moment?

For the record, I don't know the best way to implement the idea. It could just be a free shuttle, or they could do dilithium like the current 3rd and 4th shuttle. That can be debated in the comments. There could be an argument about TP losing money, but I'll debunk that below. But what I want to know is...

Do the players want it? Dare we add another shuttle?

Prime Lorca

Yes.

Would TP lose money? I don't think so. I could be wrong, but here's my logic...

Players earn tokens from the campaigns. Paying players buy the premium track for even more shuttle tokens. For the vast majority, this determines the number of shuttles they use in a faction event. They use the 4 plus their available tokens. If they had 5 shuttles, then they would use 5 plus available tokens and that would kind of set the bar for the top 1,500 (or whatever rank in the event). Players couldn't "skate by" on one less token each round because someone else would spend that token and beat them out for rank.

It's possible, though I don't know how likely, that TP could even sell more tokens. If the baseline for rank increases and someone is bound and determined to hit a certain rank each faction event, then the raised baseline could cause them to purchase more tokens to maintain their desired rank.

I can't state any results with certainly, but for the reasons above, I think adding a fifth shuttle is likely to be revenue neutral. Since I don't expect it to cost the company anything in the long term, I think checking player interest will determine if the one-time programming cost is worth the investment.

Thanks to all who participate in the poll.

Webberoni

No.

I prefer the way faction events used to work, before adding the shuttle rental tokens. Adding more shuttles just increases the drain of resources (in-game and potentially $$$) and time commitment required for faction events. Regardless of how many free shuttles are available, faction events will still ultimately be capped by the number of missions available (and merits, to a lesser extent) - those who want to run more than 4 at a time already have the option to do so. Increasing the number of free shuttles will only increase the reliance on other resources (ie: dilithium/$$$) to compete.

Veterinary Phlox

I wouldn't object to a fifth shuttle. I agree it's unlikely to impact those folks who use tokens, and the increased drain on boosts may be beneficial for WRG.

But I don't think I really need a fifth shuttle. Outside of faction events I keep shuttles running to collect hard-to-get items, but I'm already at the point where it's rare for these to get severely depleted.

Chuck S Darwin

Yes.

I would like a 5th shuttle to take more advantage of crew depth in Faction events. That being said, if I'm using the Federation Fighter as my primary ship, I don't think it has room in the shuttle bay for a fifth shuttle (wait ... 🤔 does it have a shuttle bay? Do the shuttles have to be shrunk like in DS9's "One Little Ship"? 🤯And speaking of numbers that are confusing in game, I have 345 active crew. USS Voyager would be overcrowded with that many, much less the USS Defiant or the Federation Fighter.) 🤫😋

Zombie Squirrel

No.

U can buy tokens or use dilithium if u wanna use more than 4 shuttles,
i don t see a need for a regular 5th (which probably then costs 4k dilithium) shuttle.

Seven Constanza

No.

Since shuttle tokens are easy to get IMO I don’t see the need. I’d rather see an effort toward raising the levels past 100 (I’m at 93 currently) and an extension of the rewards for immortalizing crew.

Legate Damar

No.

I voted no. Faction scores would be even harder for some to rank.

Banjo1012

Seven Constanza wrote: »

Since shuttle tokens are easy to get IMO I don’t see the need. I’d rather see an effort toward raising the levels past 100 (I’m at 93 currently) and an extension of the rewards for immortalizing crew.

I too would like to see an extension of achievements, especially the two you mentioned. Immortalized crew and beyond Captain level 99. Or more added such as clearing missions on the galaxy map.

Veterinary Phlox

Legate Damar wrote: »

I voted no. Faction scores would be even harder for some to rank.

I'm OK with Faction events raising the bar in terms of crew-on-hand, since collecting crew is a big part of the game. It promotes having a wide roster without also requiring that you have tokens (although it would help to obtain more boosts).

And it makes sense to have an event type that benefits a lot from having crew, especially when Skirmish events are super forgiving here, and Galaxy events tend to be fairly limited as well.

In terms of crew-heavy events, I'd prefer WRG allow for multiple voyages and have a voyage-type event. But that's beyond the scope of this thread.

Ishmael Marx

No.

I can only speak to my own faction event behavior, but when we have 8 missions/faction and I'm planning to "max out" a shuttle wave, I run my 4 free ones and 4 rentals, since I only open missions from 1 faction (post-kickstart, of course). If we had 5 free shuttles, I'd only run 3 rentals. Maybe I'd fall behind in the new normal?

I also think this would be another tall hurdle for new players in their efforts to become competitive with established players. Many a crusty veteran has told newer players some variation of this - "dilithium is for 3rd and 4th shuttles before all else, it will make a huge difference in your game". Unless the 5th shuttle is a free one, newer players will now need to save up for another big dilithium expense and will languish in the event ranks until they do. (Yes, I understand that they won't initially have the crew to put in the 5th shuttle either, but there are a lot more ways to add good crew in 2021 than there were in 2016.)

Commander Sinclair

Yes.

Zombie Squirrel wrote: »

U can buy tokens or use dilithium if u wanna use more than 4 shuttles,
i don t see a need for a regular 5th (which probably then costs 4k dilithium) shuttle.

I was thinking they would price it more like 7500 Dils for the 5th shuttle.

(HGH)Apollo

No.

It would make it tougher for newer players to field more crew. I think any fifth shuttle would have to be free or it would really make it tough for newer and less spending players. I don’t see a particular need for it.

DavideBooks

No.

I'm leaning to no. Personally, I already run way more daily shuttles than needed. But the real issue is events. I fear it would make faction events even more tedious. They are already very time and resource consuming. It would be worse with more shuttles. I can already staff more shuttles than I can have tokens for, if I want. But this would mean more needed.

Otto

No.

I'd like a 2nd voyage more than a 5th shuttle.

Prime Lorca

Yes.

One of the obstacles that new players face is a shortage of trainers. Having a 5th shuttle available could help them obtain trainers. For that reason, my preference would be to make a third shuttle available at the beginning for free, then have the 4th and 5th shuttles available for purchase. It would also help newer players acquire those faction-only items a little more quickly and save credits on replicator costs.

It would steepen the curve for new players to become competitive in faction events a little, but I don't think it would be terribly significant. A fifth shuttle, even passing 50% of the time over 4 days, would help newer players hit thresholds. That would mean helping them acquire better crew more quickly. If newer players can acquire better crew, then be able to train and equip them more quickly than we were able to, then they could catch up to experienced players at a comparable pace to how they catch up now.

enzo_karotti wrote: »

I'd like a 2nd voyage more than a 5th shuttle.

This would certainly be a cool idea. I think it would be harder for newer players to staff a second voyage than a fifth shuttle though. But judging how many players are voting no here, it might be a better use of dev resources if players want it more.

{PTC} Kenny

Yes.

all for 2nd voyage

Commodore Pack

Yes.

I definitely agree with you that three shuttles be free and the fourth and fifth become the purchased ones.
Great idea!

I really don’t think that adding a fifth shuttle would destroy the chances at ranking in faction events- the nature of the beast has taken care of that already! 😝

Bylo Band

No.

If we're going to add more than 4 shuttles let's do it right and go up to 8!

dext74

No.

Faction events are a chore to begin with. Adding a 5th shuttle isn't going to improve them.

Commodore Pack

Yes.

Bylo Band wrote: »

If we're going to add more than 4 shuttles let's do it right and go up to 8!

Eleven.
Always go up to eleven.

Banjo1012

It would make it easier to clear thresholds. Is that so bad for “newer players”?

(HGH)Apollo

No.

{PTC} Kenny wrote: »

all for 2nd voyage

I don’t think anyone would like how WRG would do a second voyage. Ben has said that a second voyage would mean halving the amount of stuff you get from each voyage. So you would be running two voyages with twice the crew for the same rewards you are currently getting. A bad deal.

Banjo1012 wrote: »

It would make it easier to clear thresholds. Is that so bad for “newer players”?

That is a good point and true if that fifth shuttle did not cost a lot of dilithium. It would however push faction event scores much higher which would be bad for any of them trying to rank and it would require more boosts. Pros and cons to it.

SoupKitchen Riker

Yes.

Scotty would certainly recommend a fifth...of scotch, and maybe the shuttle as well.

~peregrine~

No.

So, let’s examine the number of shuttle seats in recent Faction events, including hybrids.

1 Faction: 1*[(3*3)+(9*4)+(3*5)]=60
3 Factions: 3*[(2*3)+(5*4)+(1*5)]=93

So, four shuttles can seat up to 19 crew. A fifth shuttle could seat, at most, 4 more crew. I fail to see the logic in adding another hurdle for newer players to be able to compete with older ones.

EDIT: My F2P alt’s argument would be that dilithium is better used for crew slots.

TP do better!! ~Colli~ (PoF)

No.

Changing my answer slightly, still no, but yes only if (as suggested by @Prime Lorca [10FH]) the third is free and the fourth and fifth are available to purchase for the same price as the third and fourth are now... So if they add the fifth, people who have 2 now will have 3, 3 now will have 4, and 4 now will have 5.

Bylo Band

No.

~peregrine~ wrote: »

So, four shuttles can seat up to 19 crew. A fifth shuttle could seat, at most, 4 more crew. I fail to see the logic in adding another hurdle for newer players to be able to compete with older ones.

At the risk of re-hashing an age-old argument on the forums and derailing this thread, we need to all internalize, understand, and accept that in 2021 Faction events are the domain of established players. There is no harm in newer players sending out tons of Faction event shuttles for the rewards but they have no chance to "compete", and pretending otherwise is dishonest.

Another thing to consider is that for "competition", all that matters is fairness, so as long as everyone has the ability to acquire the same number of shuttles, it is fair. Going up from 4 shuttles to 8 would actually benefit the newer players willing to acquire them as it would give them 4 additional chances every cycle to get lucky and earn more VP.

~peregrine~

No.

Bylo Band wrote: »

~peregrine~ wrote: »

So, four shuttles can seat up to 19 crew. A fifth shuttle could seat, at most, 4 more crew. I fail to see the logic in adding another hurdle for newer players to be able to compete with older ones.

At the risk of re-hashing an age-old argument on the forums and derailing this thread, we need to all internalize, understand, and accept that in 2021 Faction events are the domain of established players. There is no harm in newer players sending out tons of Faction event shuttles for the rewards but they have no chance to "compete", and pretending otherwise is dishonest.

Another thing to consider is that for "competition", all that matters is fairness, so as long as everyone has the ability to acquire the same number of shuttles, it is fair. Going up from 4 shuttles to 8 would actually benefit the newer players willing to acquire them as it would give them 4 additional chances every cycle to get lucky and earn more VP.

Paragraph 1. Define “compete”.
Paragraph 2. Define “competition”.

If you want to get down in the weeds with semantics, then specify the ground upon which you are making your argument.

EDIT #1: Yes, you did.

EDIT #2: I vehemently disagree with your contention that newer players cannot compete in any event. If you want to specify ranks, then I would welcome even more specifics, as your arguments seemed to lack them.

Prime Lorca

Yes.

~peregrine~ wrote: »

Bylo Band wrote: »

~peregrine~ wrote: »

So, four shuttles can seat up to 19 crew. A fifth shuttle could seat, at most, 4 more crew. I fail to see the logic in adding another hurdle for newer players to be able to compete with older ones.

At the risk of re-hashing an age-old argument on the forums and derailing this thread, we need to all internalize, understand, and accept that in 2021 Faction events are the domain of established players. There is no harm in newer players sending out tons of Faction event shuttles for the rewards but they have no chance to "compete", and pretending otherwise is dishonest.

Another thing to consider is that for "competition", all that matters is fairness, so as long as everyone has the ability to acquire the same number of shuttles, it is fair. Going up from 4 shuttles to 8 would actually benefit the newer players willing to acquire them as it would give them 4 additional chances every cycle to get lucky and earn more VP.

EDIT #2: I vehemently disagree with your contention that newer players cannot compete in any event. If you want to specify ranks, then I would welcome even more specifics, as your arguments seemed to lack them.

I would like to point out that Bylo specified faction events, which is in line with the topic of the thread. I think most of us recognize that it doesn't take too long to get competitive in a skirmish. Which in turn can get resources needed to be competitive in a galaxy. This discussion is about the shuttles and by proxy, faction events.

I find it interesting. When I started the thread, I didn't think about the possibility of going to 6 or 8 shuttles. That proposition is a double edge sword for newer players. On the one hand, it helps them advance by reaching thresholds. On the other hand, it puts them at a disadvantage to deeper rosters unless they buy the event offers and a bunch of packs to make duplicates each event to staff all those shuttles. Even then... most newer players would hit a wall somewhere in trying to equip the duplicates. Seems like faction events just have several built-in bars to entry, which can only be solved with time AND money.

Banjo1012

Newer players are going to take so long to compete in a faction event that it makes little difference. And ones who want to spend to catch up will, ones who don’t will fall off naturally. It’s the circle of life. Until that time when they can compete comes, may as well let them clear thresholds. That’s better than nothing.

SoupKitchen Riker

Yes.

Unless new players are willing to spend for faction events, it is challenging to be competitive, let alone even complete the reward tiers. And I don’t see an issue with that. Rome wasn’t built in a day, and neither is one’s crew. I can remember my first few faction events (back when that was all there was, and they weren’t every week) being a challenge. I was excited when I finally finished under 10,000. Someone will always have more than you, unless you are @Paladin 27 🤠. However, over time an individual can catch up. He or she can eventually have enough shuttles and crew to be competitive. That’s part of the game, and for me that challenge of catching up/trying to overtake more established players was fun.