Won't be the last either spent nearly 7k Dilithium got multiple duplicate beholds and one Da Vinci hardly worth it. I need more incentive if I'm continuing to support this game with cash or I'll pump my disposable income into South Park phone destroyer for a better return
Won't be the last either spent nearly 7k Dilithium got multiple duplicate beholds and one Da Vinci hardly worth it. I need more incentive if I'm continuing to support this game with cash or I'll pump my disposable income into South Park phone destroyer for a better return
There's an idea.. maybe they could code it to where if the behold has 2 immortalized characters, the third by default is a citation of the same level?
which is specifically a suggestion to receive a Legendary citation (50K Honour) instead of a Legendary crew (550 Honour) under certain conditions.
"The behold itself is worth 45k honour" is an irrelevant information. This suggestion applied to any legendary behold. As Dralix has pointed out, this suggestion is just "give us 90 times more", no matter how you spin it.
Won't be the last either spent nearly 7k Dilithium got multiple duplicate beholds and one Da Vinci hardly worth it. I need more incentive if I'm continuing to support this game with cash or I'll pump my disposable income into South Park phone destroyer for a better return
Here comes Mariachi Q...
That ship has sailed I'd probably move on to pastures new by that time he's released
"The behold itself is worth 45k honour" is an irrelevant information. This suggestion applied to any legendary behold. As Dralix has pointed out, this suggestion is just "give us 90 times more", no matter how you spin it.
Not at all. 45k honour is the price DB have set to buy a legendary behold. If you want one and you don't get one ordinarily in a pack, you have to pay the 45k, therefore it'd be a perfectly reasonable argument to say that 45k is its value. The fact you get 550 honour for airlocking the card is the consolation prize for it not being useful to you, not the value of the card itself. It's like someone getting £550 trade-in amount for a brand new Mercedes. That doesn't mean the Mercedes is only worth £550, it just means the car dealer is gouging you.
Of course you'd never get something of equal value as a trade-in as the dealer always has to make a profit on each transaction, that's why I suggested the 4* citation, which is less than half the value of the behold. So instead of being offered something worth 45k honour but no good to you, you get something worth 18k honour and useful in a lesser way. Sounds like a fair compromise to me.
If you want to insist that this is all just freeloaders wanting 'free stuff', that's your prerogative, but it's not the only possible interpretation out there.
Level 99. Latest Immortal (957): Chancellor Gowron - October 2023.
If you want to insist that this is all just freeloaders wanting 'free stuff', that's your prerogative, but it's not the only possible interpretation out there.
Me: "I stopped paying one year and a half ago because the monetization is absurd and I won't resume spending until we get more."
You: "You call freeloaders people who want more."
Goodness me, Knight Ranger, you do impress me.
So, here's your argument taken to its extreme logical conclusion.
"If you want one and you don't get one ordinarily in a pack, you have to pay the 15k dilithium, therefore it'd be a perfectly reasonable argument to say that 15k dilithium is its value. (...) Of course you'd never get something of equal value as a trade-in as the dealer always has to make a profit on each transaction, that's why I suggest we receive ten 10-pull premium packs, which is less than half the value of the Faction centre purchase. So instead of being offered something worth 15k dilithium but no good to you, you get something worth 7.2k dilithium (...)"
This parody argument does the same that you do: (a) go through the game and pick one of the buying price for a Legendary card; (b) arbitrarily decide that this price corresponds to "the value" of the card"; (c) ask for something that is worth roughly half of that price in the same currency; (d) claim this is a reasonable "compromise".
And if you think that my parody argument (a word-by-word copy of your argument with the only difference that I picked the Faction Centres and not the Honour Hall as a reference) is not going to convince DB's marketing team, then your argument must be equally unconvincing.
I can obviously tell you why your argument is wrong. Legendary cards have no intrinsic value. Zero. Both 45K Honour, 15K Dilithium and 550 Honour are arbitrary values attached to a zero-value card. All argument that tries to argue that a Legendary card has a "value" are flawed.
All 1, 2 and 3 star crew are immortalised and frozen (apart from the 11 I use in arena and cadet missions). I have 54 legendary crew (most of whom are between 1/3 stars themselves) so I have a tonne of 4 star crew. This keeps happening.
So much the same here. I really wonder, if DB will give me a new goal to aim for, as I will sooner or later have all 4*s FFFE. 5*s just drop not often enough to justify spending on packs.
Had these two on the SAME day as I opened five purple portals ... thanks.
Ouch, that **tsk tsk**! I've not had all legendary options FF before. Id probably take another free spin on Dabo rather than 550 honour which is kind of worthless given the honour gained from fleet targets and voyages.
Me: "I stopped paying one year and a half ago because the monetization is absurd and I won't resume spending until we get more."
You: "You call freeloaders people who want more."
Goodness me, Knight Ranger, you do impress me.
Astrometrics, your first post in this thread was about how people were wanting far more than they deserve to have. I don't know how else you can take
The idea "give us 90 times more stuff DB, give us 90 times more now" keeps having a great following in the forums.
except as eye-rolling mockery. And you repeated the "90 times" line in subsequent posts to hammer the idea home. What I took from it is that you don't like people demanding something for nothing. If that wasn't the essence of your post, then my bad, I apologise. That's how I understood it though. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
So, here's your argument taken to its extreme logical conclusion.
"If you want one and you don't get one ordinarily in a pack, you have to pay the 15k dilithium, therefore it'd be a perfectly reasonable argument to say that 15k dilithium is its value. (...) Of course you'd never get something of equal value as a trade-in as the dealer always has to make a profit on each transaction, that's why I suggest we receive ten 10-pull premium packs, which is less than half the value of the Faction centre purchase. So instead of being offered something worth 15k dilithium but no good to you, you get something worth 7.2k dilithium (...)"
Well, at least you allow that there's different values a 5* card can have other than the 550 honour you were setting in stone to make your original point with. The analogy falters though as it gives us an apples and oranges deal. Beholds and the faction store are both card-obtaining mediums, but they don't work the same. You can see what you're buying in a faction store beforehand. If you don't need the card, you don't spend the 15k dilithium, therefore there's nothing to compensate for. You've lost nothing. With a behold you don't know what you're getting beforehand, so if you have all three choices, the argument is that you've lost a card you otherwise would've gotten. I'll pick up on this again in a moment.
(c) ask for something that is worth roughly half of that price in the same currency; (d) claim this is a reasonable "compromise".
DB currently offer compensation in the form of 550 honour, some players have said this is too little and argued for a 5* citation, you thought this was too much. In the midst of this, what amount is reasonable? My idea was simply something between the two extremes. The price of a 4* citation puts it in the ballpark of beholds, but not over as the 5* one would, so it'd make the compensation value somewhat more proportional to the value of the item that was supposed to give you something you needed but didn't.
Now, you could offer the viewpoint that the intended purpose of a behold isn't to give you something you don't have, that it's merely another lootbox gamble, and that would certainly be a valid position which if confirmed would make this particular discussion moot. At the moment though, I'm operating on the common assumption that a behold should give you a card you need. This is obviously open to revision.
And if you think that my parody argument (a word-by-word copy of your argument with the only difference that I picked the Faction Centres and not the Honour Hall as a reference) is not going to convince DB's marketing team, then your argument must be equally unconvincing.
I don't know if it would or it wouldn't, but then my post wasn't really aimed at DB. I saw a debate about what to offer in place of failed beholds and suggested something in the middle that seems fair to me. Perhaps I shouldn't have vocalised the piggy-in-the-middle position, it's never popular. It's a debate though, and the topic interested me, so I threw my tuppence worth in.
If others have better suggestions to mine, I'm happy to hear them. I'm not being absolutist and saying my way is the only way to go, it's just something I feel is better than the current setup. A legendary card is supposed to be pretty special, but giving 550 honour for it belies that when that amount of honour can be obtained relatively easily on a daily basis.
I can obviously tell you why your argument is wrong. Legendary cards have no intrinsic value. Zero. Both 45K Honour, 15K Dilithium and 550 Honour are arbitrary values attached to a zero-value card. All argument that tries to argue that a Legendary card has a "value" are flawed.
It depends on the context you're using. If you're referring to the outside world, then yes the argument that there is no cash value in legendary cards is perfectly valid, but of course the flipside is that you could potentially make the same case for anything that exists purely as data rather than a physical item. Does computer game DLC have no cash value because it just exists on the internet? You could argue no, because DLC typically expands your options in a game and provides a better playing experience. That's what you're buying. In Timelines you could say that legendary cards provide a better playing experience as they allow you to progress easier. Both arguments have their own merits though.
Internally is a different story. Credits, honour, dilithium and merits are all in-game units. When both the purchasing unit and the item purchased is virtual, it doesn't matter, the item has whatever value the developers want it to have. The niggles come when there's several different values applied depending on how you got it and what you're doing with it afterwards. The argument that it has no cash value in the real world doesn't apply as you're not paying with cash. You're paying with a unit of exchange that doesn't exist outside the game and unless you're P2P has cost you nothing except the time spent playing the game, which arguably you would've done anyway.
Does this all make sense? I've been known to ramble when I'm explaining something, that's why I usually keep my comments on messageboards fairly short otherwise I can spend like an hour writing and revising a single post
Level 99. Latest Immortal (957): Chancellor Gowron - October 2023.
This discussion is entirely out of topic, so I refuse to encourage it further in this thread. The fact that you seem to take seriously my parody, and try to reconstruct what I think based on a hypothetical absurd (as well as a refusal to accept simple maths), makes me think that the discussion is futile anyway.
How did I guess this was coming. Yes, I'm aware you were trying to paint my whole position as nonsensical. That's why I was explaining how it wasn't. You can't prove an equal comparison (behold vs behold) stupid by using an unequal one. It doesn't work, even as a "parody".
I'm well within topic by the way. People started by posting their duplicate beholds, then started discussing what should be done about them. It's called a side-discussion, it's connected.
Okay, I'll bite. What are the "simple maths" that I supposedly refused to accept?
Level 99. Latest Immortal (957): Chancellor Gowron - October 2023.
What "simple maths" did I supposedly refuse to accept?
My point is that currently we get 550 and these suggestions want 50K. It's an increase of 90. It is a simple ratio, it's trivial maths.
Look, I'll make it easy for you. I'll agree to your point. Ok, a Legendary crew is worth 45K Honour. Fine. Whatever. The suggestion to receive a legendary citation is still an increase by a factor of 90 on the current value. Because the current value is 550, even if I accept your argument that the intrinsic value is 45K. The suggestion is still "give us 90 times more than what you currently give us".
Look, I'll make it easy for you. I'll agree to your point. Ok, a Legendary crew is worth 45K Honour. Fine. Whatever.
My point (sorry if I wasn't clear, as I say I do ramble sometimes) was that the legendary behold is worth 45k, hence whatever crew that came from it would be worth that. As we've both said, other specific 5*s can be obtained for 15k, but that's by the by as the discussion was about beholds. A minor quibble though, go on.
The suggestion to receive a legendary citation is still an increase by a factor of 90 on the current value. Because the current value is 550, even if I accept your argument that the intrinsic value is 45K. The suggestion is still "give us 90 times more than what you currently give us".
Indeed. I don't dispute this either. If you were only making a factual statement, then it looks like I was reading the wrong tone in your original posts. In which case I refer to my apology at the top of my long post. It sounded like you thought they were being greedy and you didn't like it, so were mocking them. Sorry.
Level 99. Latest Immortal (957): Chancellor Gowron - October 2023.
Indeed. I don't dispute this either. If you were only making a factual statement, then it looks like I was reading the wrong tone in your original posts. In which case I refer to my apology at the top of my long post. It sounded like you thought they were being greedy and you didn't like it, so were mocking them. Sorry.
The way I see it... it sounds like summarizing your goals in a factual and trivial statement is enough to make you go into a hyper-defensive position. It speaks volumes about how realistic you think this suggestion to be.
If I can dare to give a suggestion - and it's not the first time I say it in this thread - next time that someone says "you're asking for 90 times more", just say "yes so what".
Anyway, apology accepted. Forgive me if I was blunt and dismissive, I find it difficult not to be dismissive when people attack simple factual statements.
I think the ideal compromise would be a "safety net" feature built into pulls. After, say, 10 pulls, if you don't get a single useful card, the game will roll you a behold with cards you don't have fully fused, rarity agnostic. That way, we'd keep spending (good for DB), but we'd also have some value guaranteed (good for players). It would also give you an incentive to fully fuse purples (good for DB - lots more pack buys) to have a better shot at rolling a legendary behold.
Perhaps ironically, if I'd actually seen someone saying "give us 90 times more stuff DB, give us 90 times more now" like that, I would've probably posted in a similar vein to what I thought you had, but it would've been more telling them to spank their inner Veruca Salt and calm down. It's not always easy to ascertain tone and intent with text, at least not for me. I'm satisfied to put this behind us
Level 99. Latest Immortal (957): Chancellor Gowron - October 2023.
Comments
Won't be the last either spent nearly 7k Dilithium got multiple duplicate beholds and one Da Vinci hardly worth it. I need more incentive if I'm continuing to support this game with cash or I'll pump my disposable income into South Park phone destroyer for a better return
Here comes Mariachi Q...
That is a completely irrelevant question. I was specifically answering to this:
which is specifically a suggestion to receive a Legendary citation (50K Honour) instead of a Legendary crew (550 Honour) under certain conditions.
"The behold itself is worth 45k honour" is an irrelevant information. This suggestion applied to any legendary behold. As Dralix has pointed out, this suggestion is just "give us 90 times more", no matter how you spin it.
Then your slogan is "give us 32 times more". It is a bit more reasonable, I guess.
Anyway, more on this topic is not needed in this thread. Let's just look at the 5/5 beholds of people who have way, way, way more money than I do.
That ship has sailed I'd probably move on to pastures new by that time he's released
Not at all. 45k honour is the price DB have set to buy a legendary behold. If you want one and you don't get one ordinarily in a pack, you have to pay the 45k, therefore it'd be a perfectly reasonable argument to say that 45k is its value. The fact you get 550 honour for airlocking the card is the consolation prize for it not being useful to you, not the value of the card itself. It's like someone getting £550 trade-in amount for a brand new Mercedes. That doesn't mean the Mercedes is only worth £550, it just means the car dealer is gouging you.
Of course you'd never get something of equal value as a trade-in as the dealer always has to make a profit on each transaction, that's why I suggested the 4* citation, which is less than half the value of the behold. So instead of being offered something worth 45k honour but no good to you, you get something worth 18k honour and useful in a lesser way. Sounds like a fair compromise to me.
If you want to insist that this is all just freeloaders wanting 'free stuff', that's your prerogative, but it's not the only possible interpretation out there.
Me: "I stopped paying one year and a half ago because the monetization is absurd and I won't resume spending until we get more."
You: "You call freeloaders people who want more."
Goodness me, Knight Ranger, you do impress me.
So, here's your argument taken to its extreme logical conclusion.
"If you want one and you don't get one ordinarily in a pack, you have to pay the 15k dilithium, therefore it'd be a perfectly reasonable argument to say that 15k dilithium is its value. (...) Of course you'd never get something of equal value as a trade-in as the dealer always has to make a profit on each transaction, that's why I suggest we receive ten 10-pull premium packs, which is less than half the value of the Faction centre purchase. So instead of being offered something worth 15k dilithium but no good to you, you get something worth 7.2k dilithium (...)"
This parody argument does the same that you do: (a) go through the game and pick one of the buying price for a Legendary card; (b) arbitrarily decide that this price corresponds to "the value" of the card"; (c) ask for something that is worth roughly half of that price in the same currency; (d) claim this is a reasonable "compromise".
And if you think that my parody argument (a word-by-word copy of your argument with the only difference that I picked the Faction Centres and not the Honour Hall as a reference) is not going to convince DB's marketing team, then your argument must be equally unconvincing.
I can obviously tell you why your argument is wrong. Legendary cards have no intrinsic value. Zero. Both 45K Honour, 15K Dilithium and 550 Honour are arbitrary values attached to a zero-value card. All argument that tries to argue that a Legendary card has a "value" are flawed.
Just the latest useless behold:
Jim
Astrometrics, your first post in this thread was about how people were wanting far more than they deserve to have. I don't know how else you can take except as eye-rolling mockery. And you repeated the "90 times" line in subsequent posts to hammer the idea home. What I took from it is that you don't like people demanding something for nothing. If that wasn't the essence of your post, then my bad, I apologise. That's how I understood it though. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Well, at least you allow that there's different values a 5* card can have other than the 550 honour you were setting in stone to make your original point with. The analogy falters though as it gives us an apples and oranges deal. Beholds and the faction store are both card-obtaining mediums, but they don't work the same. You can see what you're buying in a faction store beforehand. If you don't need the card, you don't spend the 15k dilithium, therefore there's nothing to compensate for. You've lost nothing. With a behold you don't know what you're getting beforehand, so if you have all three choices, the argument is that you've lost a card you otherwise would've gotten. I'll pick up on this again in a moment.
Which you also did to be fair.
Which, it could be argued, it is when the card is obtained via behold, which was the medium under discussion.
DB currently offer compensation in the form of 550 honour, some players have said this is too little and argued for a 5* citation, you thought this was too much. In the midst of this, what amount is reasonable? My idea was simply something between the two extremes. The price of a 4* citation puts it in the ballpark of beholds, but not over as the 5* one would, so it'd make the compensation value somewhat more proportional to the value of the item that was supposed to give you something you needed but didn't.
Now, you could offer the viewpoint that the intended purpose of a behold isn't to give you something you don't have, that it's merely another lootbox gamble, and that would certainly be a valid position which if confirmed would make this particular discussion moot. At the moment though, I'm operating on the common assumption that a behold should give you a card you need. This is obviously open to revision.
I don't know if it would or it wouldn't, but then my post wasn't really aimed at DB. I saw a debate about what to offer in place of failed beholds and suggested something in the middle that seems fair to me. Perhaps I shouldn't have vocalised the piggy-in-the-middle position, it's never popular. It's a debate though, and the topic interested me, so I threw my tuppence worth in.
If others have better suggestions to mine, I'm happy to hear them. I'm not being absolutist and saying my way is the only way to go, it's just something I feel is better than the current setup. A legendary card is supposed to be pretty special, but giving 550 honour for it belies that when that amount of honour can be obtained relatively easily on a daily basis.
It depends on the context you're using. If you're referring to the outside world, then yes the argument that there is no cash value in legendary cards is perfectly valid, but of course the flipside is that you could potentially make the same case for anything that exists purely as data rather than a physical item. Does computer game DLC have no cash value because it just exists on the internet? You could argue no, because DLC typically expands your options in a game and provides a better playing experience. That's what you're buying. In Timelines you could say that legendary cards provide a better playing experience as they allow you to progress easier. Both arguments have their own merits though.
Internally is a different story. Credits, honour, dilithium and merits are all in-game units. When both the purchasing unit and the item purchased is virtual, it doesn't matter, the item has whatever value the developers want it to have. The niggles come when there's several different values applied depending on how you got it and what you're doing with it afterwards. The argument that it has no cash value in the real world doesn't apply as you're not paying with cash. You're paying with a unit of exchange that doesn't exist outside the game and unless you're P2P has cost you nothing except the time spent playing the game, which arguably you would've done anyway.
Does this all make sense? I've been known to ramble when I'm explaining something, that's why I usually keep my comments on messageboards fairly short otherwise I can spend like an hour writing and revising a single post
This discussion is entirely out of topic, so I refuse to encourage it further in this thread. The fact that you seem to take seriously my parody, and try to reconstruct what I think based on a hypothetical absurd (as well as a refusal to accept simple maths), makes me think that the discussion is futile anyway.
I'm well within topic by the way. People started by posting their duplicate beholds, then started discussing what should be done about them. It's called a side-discussion, it's connected.
Okay, I'll bite. What are the "simple maths" that I supposedly refused to accept?
My point is that currently we get 550 and these suggestions want 50K. It's an increase of 90. It is a simple ratio, it's trivial maths.
Look, I'll make it easy for you. I'll agree to your point. Ok, a Legendary crew is worth 45K Honour. Fine. Whatever. The suggestion to receive a legendary citation is still an increase by a factor of 90 on the current value. Because the current value is 550, even if I accept your argument that the intrinsic value is 45K. The suggestion is still "give us 90 times more than what you currently give us".
Indeed. Almost 91 in fact. I never argued otherwise.
My point (sorry if I wasn't clear, as I say I do ramble sometimes) was that the legendary behold is worth 45k, hence whatever crew that came from it would be worth that. As we've both said, other specific 5*s can be obtained for 15k, but that's by the by as the discussion was about beholds. A minor quibble though, go on.
Indeed. I don't dispute this either. If you were only making a factual statement, then it looks like I was reading the wrong tone in your original posts. In which case I refer to my apology at the top of my long post. It sounded like you thought they were being greedy and you didn't like it, so were mocking them. Sorry.
The way I see it... it sounds like summarizing your goals in a factual and trivial statement is enough to make you go into a hyper-defensive position. It speaks volumes about how realistic you think this suggestion to be.
If I can dare to give a suggestion - and it's not the first time I say it in this thread - next time that someone says "you're asking for 90 times more", just say "yes so what".
Anyway, apology accepted. Forgive me if I was blunt and dismissive, I find it difficult not to be dismissive when people attack simple factual statements.
Proud Former Officer of The Gluten Empire
Retired 12-14-20. So long, and thanks for all the cat pics!