[I had forgotten about the TOS episode that had Kahless.
Kahless predated the augment Klingons.
Therefore, the TOS episode proves that the actual augments are the Klingon with ridges.
Memory Alpha gives a possible explanation for this. The Kahless seen in TOS is not the real Kahless, but a copy created by reading the minds of Kirk and Spock, who only knew TOS era Klingons, so had false knowledge of what Kahless looked and acted like.
Again though, a better explanation would have been to pretend they always looked and acted as they did in the post TOS era.
Am I the only one that thinks Burnham is pregnant and they are going to use that to bridge the gap between Orc and Modern Klingon? I feel like it’s so super obvious it hurts.
Probably you are alone in this...
Except modern Klingons were there in Episode 1 of ENT... they went to great pains to explain the “human looking, brown-faced, fu-Manchu” of TOS being a retrovirus in ENT.
I don’t see how we get from Orc to Fu Manchu Klingon 10 years later then to “modern” (ie, Lobster on forehead Barak in TMP) in 10 years via a pregnant Burnham.
Thanks I was looking for a comment I could use for mine.
I had forgotten about the TOS episode that had Kahless.
Kahless predated the augment Klingons.
Therefore, the TOS episode proves that the actual augments are the Klingon with ridges.
As has been discussed earlier as well, TOS Kahless is from Kirk and Spocks mind... it's based on their perceptions. If they had never encountered a Ridged Klingon before, they'd have no frame of reference for him to have them. They'd realty only encountered Kang, Kor, Koloth and the like to that point.
I think what annoys me most about this is that for years, we'd made our peace collectively with reconciling TOS and TMP→ Klingons by accepting they just hadn't thought to make them more interesting visually in the 60's. DIS wasn't the one to break the mold, and it's disingenuous to attack it as though it did. Here's a quick look at the actual elements of this design:
No hair
So what? TOS Klingons wore short hair. There's no reason all Klingons from all eras should style themselves with the long hair shown in the 24th Century shows.
Voq is albino
So what? Is there some reason Klingons can't have albinos?
Four nostrils
So what? It was established they have redundancies for all internal organs. Why not redundant nostrils?
Nosferatu teeth
So what? Worf used a sharpener to keep his chompers chiseled into fangs.
The only real answer to any of these questions is, "Because that's not how it was done before!" I refer you back to my earlier point about having previously accepted the change from TOS to TMP.
EDIT TO ADD
Someone has already brought up the example of Kahless in TOS and TNG. I would add Kortar from VOY. It was pretty clear that he was meant to be taken not as a dream or some kind of recreation, but to be the real Kortar ferrying the dishonored dead to Gre'thor. And he was the first Klingon.
I think what annoys me most about this is that for years, we'd made our peace collectively with reconciling TOS and TMP→ Klingons by accepting they just hadn't thought to make them more interesting visually in the 60's. DIS wasn't the one to break the mold, and it's disingenuous to attack it as though it did. Here's a quick look at the actual elements of this design:
No hair
So what? TOS Klingons wore short hair. There's no reason all Klingons from all eras should style themselves with the long hair shown in the 24th Century shows.
Voq is albino
So what? Is there some reason Klingons can't have albinos?
Four nostrils
So what? It was established they have redundancies for all internal organs. Why not redundant nostrils?
Nosferatu teeth
So what? Worf used a sharpener to keep his chompers chiseled into fangs.
The only real answer to any of these questions is, "Because that's not how it was done before!" I refer you back to my earlier point about having previously accepted the change from TOS to TMP.
I've got less of an issue with the appearance than I have the behavior. Its very difficult for me to believe than say Kor or Koloth comes along in such a short time period from the same society in the state it is shown in. They should be coming up the ranks based on the timeframe presented.
I think what annoys me most about this is that for years, we'd made our peace collectively with reconciling TOS and TMP→ Klingons by accepting they just hadn't thought to make them more interesting visually in the 60's. DIS wasn't the one to break the mold, and it's disingenuous to attack it as though it did. Here's a quick look at the actual elements of this design:
No hair
So what? TOS Klingons wore short hair. There's no reason all Klingons from all eras should style themselves with the long hair shown in the 24th Century shows.
Voq is albino
So what? Is there some reason Klingons can't have albinos?
Four nostrils
So what? It was established they have redundancies for all internal organs. Why not redundant nostrils?
Nosferatu teeth
So what? Worf used a sharpener to keep his chompers chiseled into fangs.
The only real answer to any of these questions is, "Because that's not how it was done before!" I refer you back to my earlier point about having previously accepted the change from TOS to TMP.
I've got less of an issue with the appearance than I have the behavior. Its very difficult for me to believe than say Kor or Koloth comes along in such a short time period from the same society in the state it is shown in. They should be coming up the ranks based on the timeframe presented.
I think what annoys me most about this is that for years, we'd made our peace collectively with reconciling TOS and TMP→ Klingons by accepting they just hadn't thought to make them more interesting visually in the 60's. DIS wasn't the one to break the mold, and it's disingenuous to attack it as though it did. Here's a quick look at the actual elements of this design:
No hair
So what? TOS Klingons wore short hair. There's no reason all Klingons from all eras should style themselves with the long hair shown in the 24th Century shows.
Voq is albino
So what? Is there some reason Klingons can't have albinos?
Four nostrils
So what? It was established they have redundancies for all internal organs. Why not redundant nostrils?
Nosferatu teeth
So what? Worf used a sharpener to keep his chompers chiseled into fangs.
The only real answer to any of these questions is, "Because that's not how it was done before!" I refer you back to my earlier point about having previously accepted the change from TOS to TMP.
I've got less of an issue with the appearance than I have the behavior. Its very difficult for me to believe than say Kor or Koloth comes along in such a short time period from the same society in the state it is shown in. They should be coming up the ranks based on the timeframe presented.
I don't follow. Would you mind elaborating?
I think the idea is that this is all happening 10 years before we meet Kor et al. So why is Klingon society so different from how it was in TOS.
To which my answer is: meh. Human society in 1963 looked vastly different from society in 1973, which looked vastly different from 1983 and if Kor, Koloth, Kang and others were the augmented kind, they could have easily formed their own "sub-society" anyways, since they have different behaviours.
My main gripe with DSC Klingons is that their prosthetics don't allow much facial movement, so it's harder to really see any acting or expressions on their face other than a generic menacing-ness. Also, because the actor's facial features don't come through, they lack distinctiveness.
“Treason, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.” - Elim Garak
Cardassian wishlist: Tora Ziyal - Thanks!
Natima Lang
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I think what annoys me most about this is that for years, we'd made our peace collectively with reconciling TOS and TMP→ Klingons by accepting they just hadn't thought to make them more interesting visually in the 60's. DIS wasn't the one to break the mold, and it's disingenuous to attack it as though it did. Here's a quick look at the actual elements of this design:
No hair
So what? TOS Klingons wore short hair. There's no reason all Klingons from all eras should style themselves with the long hair shown in the 24th Century shows.
Voq is albino
So what? Is there some reason Klingons can't have albinos?
Four nostrils
So what? It was established they have redundancies for all internal organs. Why not redundant nostrils?
Nosferatu teeth
So what? Worf used a sharpener to keep his chompers chiseled into fangs.
The only real answer to any of these questions is, "Because that's not how it was done before!" I refer you back to my earlier point about having previously accepted the change from TOS to TMP.
I've got less of an issue with the appearance than I have the behavior. Its very difficult for me to believe than say Kor or Koloth comes along in such a short time period from the same society in the state it is shown in. They should be coming up the ranks based on the timeframe presented.
I don't follow. Would you mind elaborating?
I think the idea is that this is all happening 10 years before we meet Kor et al. So why is Klingon society so different from how it was in TOS.
To which my answer is: meh. Human society in 1963 looked vastly different from society in 1973, which looked vastly different from 1983 and if Kor, Koloth, Kang and others were the augmented kind, they could have easily formed their own "sub-society" anyways, since they have different behaviours.
My main gripe with DSC Klingons is that their prosthetics don't allow much facial movement, so it's harder to really see any acting or expressions on their face other than a generic menacing-ness. Also, because the actor's facial features don't come through, they lack distinctiveness.
And that gets into this over complicated explanation that rivals ENTs Augment explanations.
Now we'll have the TKuvma Klingons, the Augments and maybe Ridge ones all with their own societies within the Empire and somehow the Augments will have taken over the entire upper echelons of the society in 10 years and replaced military then with severely different values and concepts.
And yes human society changed in 10 years, but not to the point where something like, I dunno, all Protestant and Catholic officers were replaced by all Buddhist officers from Captain on up in all northern hemisphere Navys.
I think what annoys me most about this is that for years, we'd made our peace collectively with reconciling TOS and TMP→ Klingons by accepting they just hadn't thought to make them more interesting visually in the 60's. DIS wasn't the one to break the mold, and it's disingenuous to attack it as though it did. Here's a quick look at the actual elements of this design:
No hair
So what? TOS Klingons wore short hair. There's no reason all Klingons from all eras should style themselves with the long hair shown in the 24th Century shows.
Voq is albino
So what? Is there some reason Klingons can't have albinos?
Four nostrils
So what? It was established they have redundancies for all internal organs. Why not redundant nostrils?
Nosferatu teeth
So what? Worf used a sharpener to keep his chompers chiseled into fangs.
The only real answer to any of these questions is, "Because that's not how it was done before!" I refer you back to my earlier point about having previously accepted the change from TOS to TMP.
I've got less of an issue with the appearance than I have the behavior. Its very difficult for me to believe than say Kor or Koloth comes along in such a short time period from the same society in the state it is shown in. They should be coming up the ranks based on the timeframe presented.
I don't follow. Would you mind elaborating?
I think the idea is that this is all happening 10 years before we meet Kor et al. So why is Klingon society so different from how it was in TOS.
To which my answer is: meh. Human society in 1963 looked vastly different from society in 1973, which looked vastly different from 1983 and if Kor, Koloth, Kang and others were the augmented kind, they could have easily formed their own "sub-society" anyways, since they have different behaviours.
My main gripe with DSC Klingons is that their prosthetics don't allow much facial movement, so it's harder to really see any acting or expressions on their face other than a generic menacing-ness. Also, because the actor's facial features don't come through, they lack distinctiveness.
And that gets into this over complicated explanation that rivals ENTs Augment explanations.
Now we'll have the TKuvma Klingons, the Augments and maybe Ridge ones all with their own societies within the Empire and somehow the Augments will have taken over the entire upper echelons of the society in 10 years and replaced military then with severely different values and concepts.
And yes human society changed in 10 years, but not to the point where something like, I dunno, all Protestant and Catholic officers were replaced by all Buddhist officers from Captain on up in all northern hemisphere Navys.
Lol, yeah well I would much rather there didn't have to be an explanation for anything and they just stuck with ENT's explanation and made the Klingons we all know and love. I was initially hoping that they'd actually show the augment and regular Klingons being all intermingling like they theoretically would have been. All I'm saying is that you can explain it, not that it's a great explanation, or that being able to explain it makes it okay.
I do get vibes from DSC though that they're changing stuff just "because", and that does get annoying.
I had to actually stop watching, take a break, and try again the moment I saw Tyler and Lorca in a HOLODECK of all things.
“Treason, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.” - Elim Garak
Cardassian wishlist: Tora Ziyal - Thanks!
Natima Lang
Empok Nor Garak
Tekeny Ghemor
Mira
Makbar
Dejar
Ulani Belor
I think what annoys me most about this is that for years, we'd made our peace collectively with reconciling TOS and TMP→ Klingons by accepting they just hadn't thought to make them more interesting visually in the 60's. DIS wasn't the one to break the mold, and it's disingenuous to attack it as though it did. Here's a quick look at the actual elements of this design:
No hair
So what? TOS Klingons wore short hair. There's no reason all Klingons from all eras should style themselves with the long hair shown in the 24th Century shows.
Voq is albino
So what? Is there some reason Klingons can't have albinos?
Four nostrils
So what? It was established they have redundancies for all internal organs. Why not redundant nostrils?
Nosferatu teeth
So what? Worf used a sharpener to keep his chompers chiseled into fangs.
The only real answer to any of these questions is, "Because that's not how it was done before!" I refer you back to my earlier point about having previously accepted the change from TOS to TMP.
I've got less of an issue with the appearance than I have the behavior. Its very difficult for me to believe than say Kor or Koloth comes along in such a short time period from the same society in the state it is shown in. They should be coming up the ranks based on the timeframe presented.
I don't follow. Would you mind elaborating?
I think the idea is that this is all happening 10 years before we meet Kor et al. So why is Klingon society so different from how it was in TOS.
To which my answer is: meh. Human society in 1963 looked vastly different from society in 1973, which looked vastly different from 1983 and if Kor, Koloth, Kang and others were the augmented kind, they could have easily formed their own "sub-society" anyways, since they have different behaviours.
My main gripe with DSC Klingons is that their prosthetics don't allow much facial movement, so it's harder to really see any acting or expressions on their face other than a generic menacing-ness. Also, because the actor's facial features don't come through, they lack distinctiveness.
And that gets into this over complicated explanation that rivals ENTs Augment explanations.
Now we'll have the TKuvma Klingons, the Augments and maybe Ridge ones all with their own societies within the Empire and somehow the Augments will have taken over the entire upper echelons of the society in 10 years and replaced military then with severely different values and concepts.
And yes human society changed in 10 years, but not to the point where something like, I dunno, all Protestant and Catholic officers were replaced by all Buddhist officers from Captain on up in all northern hemisphere Navys.
The distinctive traits of Klingons have always been:
Aggressive conquest of others
Factional infighting
Code of honor (Recall, though, Worf's concession that "There is nothing more honorable than victory" and that winning was more important than anything in that code)
I don't see anything appreciably different about T'Kuvma's radical movement or what little of Klingon society that was shown in TOS. There was a sense that Klingons in TOS were monolithic, but that's true of every alien society in any Trek series. It's just more noticeable with Klingons because they returned so many times instead of being one-offs. Also, as @For Cardassia noted, a lot can happen in a decade. T'Kuvma's whole purpose was to galvanize the empire. Looks to me like a foregone conclusion he succeeded. What is there to reconcile?
From a guy who watched very little STD, is there anything to say the fractured Great Houses share a common culture?
Different factions that follow a historic figures teachings frequently disagree on how things from the past are interpreted. We could simply be watching one House's view of Kahless get whiped from existence along with the House itself.
I think what annoys me most about this is that for years, we'd made our peace collectively with reconciling TOS and TMP→ Klingons by accepting they just hadn't thought to make them more interesting visually in the 60's. DIS wasn't the one to break the mold, and it's disingenuous to attack it as though it did. Here's a quick look at the actual elements of this design:
No hair
So what? TOS Klingons wore short hair. There's no reason all Klingons from all eras should style themselves with the long hair shown in the 24th Century shows.
Voq is albino
So what? Is there some reason Klingons can't have albinos?
Four nostrils
So what? It was established they have redundancies for all internal organs. Why not redundant nostrils?
Nosferatu teeth
So what? Worf used a sharpener to keep his chompers chiseled into fangs.
The only real answer to any of these questions is, "Because that's not how it was done before!" I refer you back to my earlier point about having previously accepted the change from TOS to TMP.
I've got less of an issue with the appearance than I have the behavior. Its very difficult for me to believe than say Kor or Koloth comes along in such a short time period from the same society in the state it is shown in. They should be coming up the ranks based on the timeframe presented.
I don't follow. Would you mind elaborating?
I think the idea is that this is all happening 10 years before we meet Kor et al. So why is Klingon society so different from how it was in TOS.
To which my answer is: meh. Human society in 1963 looked vastly different from society in 1973, which looked vastly different from 1983 and if Kor, Koloth, Kang and others were the augmented kind, they could have easily formed their own "sub-society" anyways, since they have different behaviours.
My main gripe with DSC Klingons is that their prosthetics don't allow much facial movement, so it's harder to really see any acting or expressions on their face other than a generic menacing-ness. Also, because the actor's facial features don't come through, they lack distinctiveness.
And that gets into this over complicated explanation that rivals ENTs Augment explanations.
Now we'll have the TKuvma Klingons, the Augments and maybe Ridge ones all with their own societies within the Empire and somehow the Augments will have taken over the entire upper echelons of the society in 10 years and replaced military then with severely different values and concepts.
And yes human society changed in 10 years, but not to the point where something like, I dunno, all Protestant and Catholic officers were replaced by all Buddhist officers from Captain on up in all northern hemisphere Navys.
The distinctive traits of Klingons have always been:
Aggressive conquest of others
Factional infighting
Code of honor (Recall, though, Worf's concession that "There is nothing more honorable than victory" and that winning was more important than anything in that code)
I don't see anything appreciably different about T'Kuvma's radical movement or what little of Klingon society that was shown in TOS. There was a sense that Klingons in TOS were monolithic, but that's true of every alien society in any Trek series. It's just more noticeable with Klingons because they returned so many times instead of being one-offs. Also, as @For Cardassia noted, a lot can happen in a decade. T'Kuvma's whole purpose was to galvanize the empire. Looks to me like a foregone conclusion he succeeded. What is there to reconcile?
That's pretty simplistic.
There's nuance. Did TK's followers galvanize them into moving prey to the dinner table? Rather than eating the defeated oppositions heart right there on the battlefield? Where's the joy in battle. Before I quit watching the Klingons were more like characters out of Long Kiss Goodnight -- there seemed to be no joy in the battle. More like Pain and Duty is how we know we're alive.
A society that is galvanized by a radical, will be radical. Iran is a very good example of that. Or to some extent the Soviet Union.
It's like saying David Koresh was responsible for neo-cons taking over Congress.
Unless you feel that the Klingons united in opposition to the radicalism and that TK is considered a villain amongst the High Council of the time.
You've already stated that the key here is suspending disbelief. I just can't.
And it has nothing to do with the ridges or 'orc' or whatever appearances.
I think what annoys me most about this is that for years, we'd made our peace collectively with reconciling TOS and TMP→ Klingons by accepting they just hadn't thought to make them more interesting visually in the 60's. DIS wasn't the one to break the mold, and it's disingenuous to attack it as though it did. Here's a quick look at the actual elements of this design:
No hair
So what? TOS Klingons wore short hair. There's no reason all Klingons from all eras should style themselves with the long hair shown in the 24th Century shows.
Voq is albino
So what? Is there some reason Klingons can't have albinos?
Four nostrils
So what? It was established they have redundancies for all internal organs. Why not redundant nostrils?
Nosferatu teeth
So what? Worf used a sharpener to keep his chompers chiseled into fangs.
The only real answer to any of these questions is, "Because that's not how it was done before!" I refer you back to my earlier point about having previously accepted the change from TOS to TMP.
I've got less of an issue with the appearance than I have the behavior. Its very difficult for me to believe than say Kor or Koloth comes along in such a short time period from the same society in the state it is shown in. They should be coming up the ranks based on the timeframe presented.
I don't follow. Would you mind elaborating?
I think the idea is that this is all happening 10 years before we meet Kor et al. So why is Klingon society so different from how it was in TOS.
To which my answer is: meh. Human society in 1963 looked vastly different from society in 1973, which looked vastly different from 1983 and if Kor, Koloth, Kang and others were the augmented kind, they could have easily formed their own "sub-society" anyways, since they have different behaviours.
My main gripe with DSC Klingons is that their prosthetics don't allow much facial movement, so it's harder to really see any acting or expressions on their face other than a generic menacing-ness. Also, because the actor's facial features don't come through, they lack distinctiveness.
And that gets into this over complicated explanation that rivals ENTs Augment explanations.
Now we'll have the TKuvma Klingons, the Augments and maybe Ridge ones all with their own societies within the Empire and somehow the Augments will have taken over the entire upper echelons of the society in 10 years and replaced military then with severely different values and concepts.
And yes human society changed in 10 years, but not to the point where something like, I dunno, all Protestant and Catholic officers were replaced by all Buddhist officers from Captain on up in all northern hemisphere Navys.
The distinctive traits of Klingons have always been:
Aggressive conquest of others
Factional infighting
Code of honor (Recall, though, Worf's concession that "There is nothing more honorable than victory" and that winning was more important than anything in that code)
I don't see anything appreciably different about T'Kuvma's radical movement or what little of Klingon society that was shown in TOS. There was a sense that Klingons in TOS were monolithic, but that's true of every alien society in any Trek series. It's just more noticeable with Klingons because they returned so many times instead of being one-offs. Also, as @For Cardassia noted, a lot can happen in a decade. T'Kuvma's whole purpose was to galvanize the empire. Looks to me like a foregone conclusion he succeeded. What is there to reconcile?
That's pretty simplistic.
There's nuance. Did TK's followers galvanize them into moving prey to the dinner table? Rather than eating the defeated oppositions heart right there on the battlefield? Where's the joy in battle. Before I quit watching the Klingons were more like characters out of Long Kiss Goodnight -- there seemed to be no joy in the battle. More like Pain and Duty is how we know we're alive.
They're radicals. Radicals often engage in behavior contradictory to the thing they profess to believe. T'Kuvma saw himself as the leader of purity, but I think it was clear that the leaders of the other houses didn't take him seriously.
A society that is galvanized by a radical, will be radical. Iran is a very good example of that. Or to some extent the Soviet Union.
It's like saying David Koresh was responsible for neo-cons taking over Congress.
Unless you feel that the Klingons united in opposition to the radicalism and that TK is considered a villain amongst the High Council of the time.
They haven't galvanized to follow T'Kuvma's teachings. They've merely come together tentatively because of the war sparked by T'Kuvma. Kol has been consolidating power, and he very clearly had nothing but disdain for T'Kuvma and his followers.
You've already stated that the key here is suspending disbelief. I just can't.
And it has nothing to do with the ridges or 'orc' or whatever appearances.
To be clearer, I haven't made that argument. On the contrary; I've been asserting that I don't see that there has been all that much suspension of disbelief required to accept these Klingons.
Voq is albino
So what? Is there some reason Klingons can't have albino
DS9 had an albino Klingon. Dax swore a blood oath to kill it
Is Voq being an albino actually a complaint? I'm pretty sure if orchids can have albinism, Klingons having albinism isn't a big stretch.
And I thought it was never made clear what species "The Albino" was from? (in that DS9 episode)
I don't think it is a complaint, but I was replying to a comment that mentioned it.
I am not sure if it was specified what species the Albino was, however I got the implication by the name and the look of the character that he was Klingon
Voq is albino
So what? Is there some reason Klingons can't have albino
DS9 had an albino Klingon. Dax swore a blood oath to kill it
Is Voq being an albino actually a complaint? I'm pretty sure if orchids can have albinism, Klingons having albinism isn't a big stretch.
And I thought it was never made clear what species "The Albino" was from? (in that DS9 episode)
I don't think it is a complaint, but I was replying to a comment that mentioned it.
I am not sure if it was specified what species the Albino was, however I got the implication by the name and the look of the character that he was Klingon
You're right, it's implied but never stated. And assumed due to the ridges--- but you never know...
Voq is albino
So what? Is there some reason Klingons can't have albino
DS9 had an albino Klingon. Dax swore a blood oath to kill it
Is Voq being an albino actually a complaint? I'm pretty sure if orchids can have albinism, Klingons having albinism isn't a big stretch.
And I thought it was never made clear what species "The Albino" was from? (in that DS9 episode)
I don't think it is a complaint, but I was replying to a comment that mentioned it.
I am not sure if it was specified what species the Albino was, however I got the implication by the name and the look of the character that he was Klingon
You're right, it's implied but never stated. And assumed due to the ridges--- but you never know...
Could be Klingon. {The possible minor differences could also be effects of the mutation that made him albino......}
"The truth is like a lion; you don't have to defend it. Let it loose; it will defend itself."
Voq is albino
So what? Is there some reason Klingons can't have albino
DS9 had an albino Klingon. Dax swore a blood oath to kill it
Is Voq being an albino actually a complaint? I'm pretty sure if orchids can have albinism, Klingons having albinism isn't a big stretch.
And I thought it was never made clear what species "The Albino" was from? (in that DS9 episode)
I don't think it is a complaint, but I was replying to a comment that mentioned it.
I am not sure if it was specified what species the Albino was, however I got the implication by the name and the look of the character that he was Klingon
You're right, it's implied but never stated. And assumed due to the ridges--- but you never know...
Do you imagine there is discrimination in the Klingon Empire due to “Bony ridge envy”? Wonder if they have “ridge shaming”?
Voq is albino
So what? Is there some reason Klingons can't have albino
DS9 had an albino Klingon. Dax swore a blood oath to kill it
Is Voq being an albino actually a complaint? I'm pretty sure if orchids can have albinism, Klingons having albinism isn't a big stretch.
And I thought it was never made clear what species "The Albino" was from? (in that DS9 episode)
I don't think it is a complaint, but I was replying to a comment that mentioned it.
I am not sure if it was specified what species the Albino was, however I got the implication by the name and the look of the character that he was Klingon
You're right, it's implied but never stated. And assumed due to the ridges--- but you never know...
Do you imagine there is discrimination in the Klingon Empire due to “Bony ridge envy”? Wonder if they have “ridge shaming”?
I do recall Worf obsessing over his ridges apparently not looking the same after some sort of appearance-altering surgery (don't fully remember the context). So I'd imagine they could at least be some source of vanity.
It really depends though on whether ridge shape/height/number/style was ever previously associated to something else. For instance, if all the old noble houses tended to have ridges of a certain shape or type, then there could be societal implications if someone has similar kinds of ridges. Or if a child is born to a house of "ridge type x" but he has "ridge type y", perhaps he'd be viewed differently?
It's an interesting theory, but I don't think there's ever been much indication one way or another (but we do know that there is still some discrimination based on the old noble houses because of Martok, and the Klingons do put a heavy emphasis on family ties/lineage).
“Treason, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.” - Elim Garak
Cardassian wishlist: Tora Ziyal - Thanks!
Natima Lang
Empok Nor Garak
Tekeny Ghemor
Mira
Makbar
Dejar
Ulani Belor
This information is readily available on the inter webs you don't have to watch the show if you want to look into it but here goes....
The Klingons themselves and the ships are a visual reboot. They are not going to reconciled the look with a virus and other Enterprise stupidity. Its a reboot. (Visual only, they claim the story/timeline will reconcile by the end of the show. I don't see how, but I'll wait...). "They" being the writers and creators.
Burnt pizza avatar is correct. They are not going to go from Ridges to Orcs to Smooth in 10 years.
Before ENT the consensus about the difference between TNG Klingons and TOS Klingons was they always looked this way. Despite what Worf said on DS9. You were supposed to suspend disbelief. After all, TOS was only on the air for 3 years. All the TOS movies to that point (5) and 7 years of TNG, 7 years of DS9 had the "new" Klingons. And it was never explained just accepted...makeup/budgets/the 1970s...the end.
ENT did pull the virus story from Trek books that attempted to explain the look but are far as on screen (canon) it was just something to be ignored.
DSC is taking the same tactic (well until that Vicaom merger happens in few years). The pack is called "evolution" of Klingons....sigh...evolution doesn't happen in 10 years or even 250 years.
[I had forgotten about the TOS episode that had Kahless.
Kahless predated the augment Klingons.
Therefore, the TOS episode proves that the actual augments are the Klingon with ridges.
Memory Alpha gives a possible explanation for this. The Kahless seen in TOS is not the real Kahless, but a copy created by reading the minds of Kirk and Spock, who only knew TOS era Klingons, so had false knowledge of what Kahless looked and acted like.
Again though, a better explanation would have been to pretend they always looked and acted as they did in the post TOS era.
Thanks Dralix and @Pallidyne
Still think it might have made more sense (If they really had to explain differences, rather than say they would not budget it)
to have the Klingons from TNG and above including Enterprise (Since it no longer shared the same timeline with the rest because there had not been an attack on Earth by the Xindis) be the genetically altered Klingons. This could have led to more alterations for Discovery.
Burnt pizza avatar is correct. They are not going to go from Ridges to Orcs to Smooth in 10 years.
Oh that’s it... I have contacted the Horta Defense League and the GAAH (Galactic Association for the Advancement of Hortas) for your slanderous “speciesism”... I’m sure they will be contacting you shortly with a subpoena.
Horta Lives Matter!!!
You would have thought we had advanced beyond the days where you and your ilk collected and destroyed thousands of silicon eggs in a near genocide using the sad excuse that “they were only silicon nodules” but I guess some things never change...
Burnt pizza avatar is correct. They are not going to go from Ridges to Orcs to Smooth in 10 years.
Oh that’s it... I have contacted the Horta Defense League and the GAAH (Galactic Association for the Advancement of Hortas) for your slanderous “speciesism”... I’m sure they will be contacting you shortly with a subpoena.
.....
😝😝😝😇😇😇
In SoS’s defense, they’re probably more familiar with the Kelvinverse version of the Horchata, which has extra ridges and a cinnamony after-taste they couldn’t replicate on TOS.
Hosun Lee Civilian, Brand and Marketing Ex-Disruptor Beam
Burnt pizza avatar is correct. They are not going to go from Ridges to Orcs to Smooth in 10 years.
Oh that’s it... I have contacted the Horta Defense League and the GAAH (Galactic Association for the Advancement of Hortas) for your slanderous “speciesism”... I’m sure they will be contacting you shortly with a subpoena.
.....
😝😝😝😇😇😇
In SoS’s defense, they’re probably more familiar with the Kelvinverse version of the Horchata, which has extra ridges and a cinnamony after-taste they couldn’t replicate on TOS.
I would apologize for saying in another thread that you were too busy posting of the Facebook page but after yet another “Horchata” comment, I’ll let it stand... I eat Black Pebbles for breakfast (and lunch and dinner and pretty much all day long) you know..
Voq is albino
So what? Is there some reason Klingons can't have albino
DS9 had an albino Klingon. Dax swore a blood oath to kill it
Is Voq being an albino actually a complaint? I'm pretty sure if orchids can have albinism, Klingons having albinism isn't a big stretch.
And I thought it was never made clear what species "The Albino" was from? (in that DS9 episode)
I don't think it is a complaint, but I was replying to a comment that mentioned it.
I am not sure if it was specified what species the Albino was, however I got the implication by the name and the look of the character that he was Klingon
You're right, it's implied but never stated. And assumed due to the ridges--- but you never know...
The way that I always looked at it was that the fact that he is named "the Albino" suggests that he is an albino Klingon - if he was another species the paler look could be pretty normal for that species.
Also if they are a different species I don't believe that we have seen other members of that species.
Come to think of it...what if Voq IS The Albino? O_O He seemed to be a peer of Kor, Koloth, and Kang. Disco is only set a decade before TOS. Granted, he seemed a bit younger and sprier than them, but maybe he spent most of the 24th Century jogging and doing yoga instead of chugging bloodwine.
[I'm not actually serious about this, so please forgo citing nine different Memory Alpha entries to refute it.]
Come to think of it...what if Voq IS The Albino? O_O He seemed to be a peer of Kor, Koloth, and Kang. Disco is only set a decade before TOS. Granted, he seemed a bit younger and sprier than them, but maybe he spent most of the 24th Century jogging and doing yoga instead of chugging bloodwine.
[I'm not actually serious about this, so please forgo citing nine different Memory Alpha entries to refute it.]
Actually very little backstory (aside from some of the novels) is ever given about The Albino. All we know is that he's albino and hates Klingons.
It's honestly not the craziest theory I've ever heard.
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Comments
Memory Alpha gives a possible explanation for this. The Kahless seen in TOS is not the real Kahless, but a copy created by reading the minds of Kirk and Spock, who only knew TOS era Klingons, so had false knowledge of what Kahless looked and acted like.
Again though, a better explanation would have been to pretend they always looked and acted as they did in the post TOS era.
As has been discussed earlier as well, TOS Kahless is from Kirk and Spocks mind... it's based on their perceptions. If they had never encountered a Ridged Klingon before, they'd have no frame of reference for him to have them. They'd realty only encountered Kang, Kor, Koloth and the like to that point.
No hair
So what? TOS Klingons wore short hair. There's no reason all Klingons from all eras should style themselves with the long hair shown in the 24th Century shows.
Voq is albino
So what? Is there some reason Klingons can't have albinos?
Four nostrils
So what? It was established they have redundancies for all internal organs. Why not redundant nostrils?
Nosferatu teeth
So what? Worf used a sharpener to keep his chompers chiseled into fangs.
The only real answer to any of these questions is, "Because that's not how it was done before!" I refer you back to my earlier point about having previously accepted the change from TOS to TMP.
EDIT TO ADD
Someone has already brought up the example of Kahless in TOS and TNG. I would add Kortar from VOY. It was pretty clear that he was meant to be taken not as a dream or some kind of recreation, but to be the real Kortar ferrying the dishonored dead to Gre'thor. And he was the first Klingon.
I've got less of an issue with the appearance than I have the behavior. Its very difficult for me to believe than say Kor or Koloth comes along in such a short time period from the same society in the state it is shown in. They should be coming up the ranks based on the timeframe presented.
I don't follow. Would you mind elaborating?
I think the idea is that this is all happening 10 years before we meet Kor et al. So why is Klingon society so different from how it was in TOS.
To which my answer is: meh. Human society in 1963 looked vastly different from society in 1973, which looked vastly different from 1983 and if Kor, Koloth, Kang and others were the augmented kind, they could have easily formed their own "sub-society" anyways, since they have different behaviours.
My main gripe with DSC Klingons is that their prosthetics don't allow much facial movement, so it's harder to really see any acting or expressions on their face other than a generic menacing-ness. Also, because the actor's facial features don't come through, they lack distinctiveness.
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And that gets into this over complicated explanation that rivals ENTs Augment explanations.
Now we'll have the TKuvma Klingons, the Augments and maybe Ridge ones all with their own societies within the Empire and somehow the Augments will have taken over the entire upper echelons of the society in 10 years and replaced military then with severely different values and concepts.
And yes human society changed in 10 years, but not to the point where something like, I dunno, all Protestant and Catholic officers were replaced by all Buddhist officers from Captain on up in all northern hemisphere Navys.
Lol, yeah well I would much rather there didn't have to be an explanation for anything and they just stuck with ENT's explanation and made the Klingons we all know and love. I was initially hoping that they'd actually show the augment and regular Klingons being all intermingling like they theoretically would have been. All I'm saying is that you can explain it, not that it's a great explanation, or that being able to explain it makes it okay.
I do get vibes from DSC though that they're changing stuff just "because", and that does get annoying.
I had to actually stop watching, take a break, and try again the moment I saw Tyler and Lorca in a HOLODECK of all things.
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DS9 had an albino Klingon. Dax swore a blood oath to kill it
Is Voq being an albino actually a complaint? I'm pretty sure if orchids can have albinism, Klingons having albinism isn't a big stretch.
And I thought it was never made clear what species "The Albino" was from? (in that DS9 episode)
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The distinctive traits of Klingons have always been:
Aggressive conquest of others
Factional infighting
Code of honor (Recall, though, Worf's concession that "There is nothing more honorable than victory" and that winning was more important than anything in that code)
I don't see anything appreciably different about T'Kuvma's radical movement or what little of Klingon society that was shown in TOS. There was a sense that Klingons in TOS were monolithic, but that's true of every alien society in any Trek series. It's just more noticeable with Klingons because they returned so many times instead of being one-offs. Also, as @For Cardassia noted, a lot can happen in a decade. T'Kuvma's whole purpose was to galvanize the empire. Looks to me like a foregone conclusion he succeeded. What is there to reconcile?
Different factions that follow a historic figures teachings frequently disagree on how things from the past are interpreted. We could simply be watching one House's view of Kahless get whiped from existence along with the House itself.
That's pretty simplistic.
There's nuance. Did TK's followers galvanize them into moving prey to the dinner table? Rather than eating the defeated oppositions heart right there on the battlefield? Where's the joy in battle. Before I quit watching the Klingons were more like characters out of Long Kiss Goodnight -- there seemed to be no joy in the battle. More like Pain and Duty is how we know we're alive.
A society that is galvanized by a radical, will be radical. Iran is a very good example of that. Or to some extent the Soviet Union.
It's like saying David Koresh was responsible for neo-cons taking over Congress.
Unless you feel that the Klingons united in opposition to the radicalism and that TK is considered a villain amongst the High Council of the time.
You've already stated that the key here is suspending disbelief. I just can't.
And it has nothing to do with the ridges or 'orc' or whatever appearances.
They're radicals. Radicals often engage in behavior contradictory to the thing they profess to believe. T'Kuvma saw himself as the leader of purity, but I think it was clear that the leaders of the other houses didn't take him seriously.
They haven't galvanized to follow T'Kuvma's teachings. They've merely come together tentatively because of the war sparked by T'Kuvma. Kol has been consolidating power, and he very clearly had nothing but disdain for T'Kuvma and his followers.
To be clearer, I haven't made that argument. On the contrary; I've been asserting that I don't see that there has been all that much suspension of disbelief required to accept these Klingons.
I don't think it is a complaint, but I was replying to a comment that mentioned it.
I am not sure if it was specified what species the Albino was, however I got the implication by the name and the look of the character that he was Klingon
You're right, it's implied but never stated. And assumed due to the ridges--- but you never know...
Could be Klingon. {The possible minor differences could also be effects of the mutation that made him albino......}
Do you imagine there is discrimination in the Klingon Empire due to “Bony ridge envy”? Wonder if they have “ridge shaming”?
I do recall Worf obsessing over his ridges apparently not looking the same after some sort of appearance-altering surgery (don't fully remember the context). So I'd imagine they could at least be some source of vanity.
It really depends though on whether ridge shape/height/number/style was ever previously associated to something else. For instance, if all the old noble houses tended to have ridges of a certain shape or type, then there could be societal implications if someone has similar kinds of ridges. Or if a child is born to a house of "ridge type x" but he has "ridge type y", perhaps he'd be viewed differently?
It's an interesting theory, but I don't think there's ever been much indication one way or another (but we do know that there is still some discrimination based on the old noble houses because of Martok, and the Klingons do put a heavy emphasis on family ties/lineage).
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The Klingons themselves and the ships are a visual reboot. They are not going to reconciled the look with a virus and other Enterprise stupidity. Its a reboot. (Visual only, they claim the story/timeline will reconcile by the end of the show. I don't see how, but I'll wait...). "They" being the writers and creators.
Burnt pizza avatar is correct. They are not going to go from Ridges to Orcs to Smooth in 10 years.
Before ENT the consensus about the difference between TNG Klingons and TOS Klingons was they always looked this way. Despite what Worf said on DS9. You were supposed to suspend disbelief. After all, TOS was only on the air for 3 years. All the TOS movies to that point (5) and 7 years of TNG, 7 years of DS9 had the "new" Klingons. And it was never explained just accepted...makeup/budgets/the 1970s...the end.
ENT did pull the virus story from Trek books that attempted to explain the look but are far as on screen (canon) it was just something to be ignored.
DSC is taking the same tactic (well until that Vicaom merger happens in few years). The pack is called "evolution" of Klingons....sigh...evolution doesn't happen in 10 years or even 250 years.
Thanks Dralix and @Pallidyne
Still think it might have made more sense (If they really had to explain differences, rather than say they would not budget it)
to have the Klingons from TNG and above including Enterprise (Since it no longer shared the same timeline with the rest because there had not been an attack on Earth by the Xindis) be the genetically altered Klingons. This could have led to more alterations for Discovery.
Oh that’s it... I have contacted the Horta Defense League and the GAAH (Galactic Association for the Advancement of Hortas) for your slanderous “speciesism”... I’m sure they will be contacting you shortly with a subpoena.
Horta Lives Matter!!!
You would have thought we had advanced beyond the days where you and your ilk collected and destroyed thousands of silicon eggs in a near genocide using the sad excuse that “they were only silicon nodules” but I guess some things never change...
😝😝😝😇😇😇
In SoS’s defense, they’re probably more familiar with the Kelvinverse version of the Horchata, which has extra ridges and a cinnamony after-taste they couldn’t replicate on TOS.
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Ex-Disruptor Beam
I would apologize for saying in another thread that you were too busy posting of the Facebook page but after yet another “Horchata” comment, I’ll let it stand... I eat Black Pebbles for breakfast (and lunch and dinner and pretty much all day long) you know..
The way that I always looked at it was that the fact that he is named "the Albino" suggests that he is an albino Klingon - if he was another species the paler look could be pretty normal for that species.
Also if they are a different species I don't believe that we have seen other members of that species.
Occam's razor would tend to apply
[I'm not actually serious about this, so please forgo citing nine different Memory Alpha entries to refute it.]
Actually very little backstory (aside from some of the novels) is ever given about The Albino. All we know is that he's albino and hates Klingons.
It's honestly not the craziest theory I've ever heard.
Cardassian wishlist:
Tora Ziyal - Thanks!
Natima Lang
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