Captain Gabriel Lorca's future as a STT card (spoilers within)

(CSF) Jesus Is Lord [••••]

So...i watched last nights dsc episode...since it has been established that Gabriel Lorca is really from the mirror universe...shouldnt his card in-game gain the mirror universe, terran empire, undercover operative, and brutal traits?

Press the big white button labeled 'Show'...you know you want to....

robownage

Honestly, I think I would rather they just leave him (and Lt. Ash Tyler, FWIW) alone. Unless we encounter the Prime Universe (or pre-kidnapping) version of him, let DB pretend that card is the original and then introduce a a new version that takes advantage of what we really saw.

Besides, all this explain why the Lorca we got doesn't have SEC - because MU Lorca should definitely have that skill.

(CSF) Jesus Is Lord [••••]

robownage wrote: »

Honestly, I think I would rather they just leave him (and Lt. Ash Tyler, FWIW) alone. Unless we encounter the Prime Universe (or pre-kidnapping) version of him, let DB pretend that card is the original and then introduce a a new version that takes advantage of what we really saw.

Besides, all this explain why the Lorca we got doesn't have SEC - because MU Lorca should definitely have that skill.

Definitely!!!

Commander Morak

Skills and traits are usually episode based. Worf doesn't get Duelist on every variant despite his certain expertise as part of who he is.

Killer Kitty

I'm mostly just peeved that I didn't get to

use my 5/5 Lorca all throughout the December Mega

I do believe the cards should be updated, though, Ash Tyler as well. Would help in voyages, more traits are always better.

Travis S McClain

If I had a vote to cast, I think ultimately I'd be in favor of updating, with my reasoning simply being that other crew traits have been periodically revised to better reflect those characters' attributes and skills. To my mind, adding the Mirror Universe and Terran Empire traits to Captain Gabriel Lorca and the Klingon and Undercover Operative traits to Lt. Ash Tyler would be comparable to when the Pilot trait was added to all Jadzia personae or the Human trait was added to Mirror K'Ehleyr.

As it is, I don't get a vote. Thankfully, I'm also indifferent enough that I'm cool with either retroactively adding traits or leaving those cards as-is.

FutureImperfecta

I don't know how to do the spoiler tags

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It's tough because there are "original versions" of both characters..

It could be argued that yes, the card represents those characters from.. 2 weeks before the series starts.

If they don't, then I take my current from Seska
As even her 2* card I believe lists all relevant traits.

I do think they should wait until this season has completed however before an update.

Data1001

FutureImperfecta wrote: »

I don't know how to do the spoiler tags

Spoiler tags are cleverly hidden under the ¶ icon in the area where you compose a post. Select the text you want to make into a spoiler, then click that icon, select "Spoiler", et voila.

Made you look!

GhostStalker

I'm still a fan of Discovery's "all the characters have secrets" stuff for now...

But I swear if they do anything more to my poor Stamets I'm going to lose it.

SrOura

They "could" do a MU version of Lorca (with the black trench coat look) as he is now home. Like a scoundrel/rebel trait with SEC.

Astrometrics

I don't expect the traits to change at least until the end of Season 1 of Discovery, if not Season 2.

Besides

we don't know where Prime-universe Lorca is, although MU Lorca is probably involved in his disappearence. As far as we know he might still play a role in the few episodes left (he might have been abducted by MU Lorca and he might be rescued by Discovery) and he could end up being the character we have in STT. Who knows.

[BL] Q

Mordack

They've always been very reluctant to retroactively fix crew in the past, so I can't imagine they'll be doing it now with far less staff. Just expect a Mirror Lorca 5* at some point.

Speckles the Destroyer of Worlds

Cards reflect who that character currently represents (or pretends to represent) in that snapshot of time. They do not reflect details from previous or later episodes. That's why we have a million different versions of people like Janeway and Seven that all have different stats and traits.

No need to change anything.

Neems

Speckles the Destroyer of Worlds wrote: »

Cards reflect who that character currently represents (or pretends to represent) in that snapshot of time. They do not reflect details from previous or later episodes. That's why we have a million different versions of people like Janeway and Seven that all have different stats and traits.

No need to change anything.

You have a point, but if you snapshot Lorca or Tyler at the moments in time we see them in the show, they are still what people are suggesting they should have traits for, we as an audience just didn't know it yet. Same way Seska shows up as Cardassian on her 2* card, which appears to be her before that detail about her race is revealed to the audience. She was Cardassian the whole time, we just didn't know it. Lorca was Mirror Universe the whole time, we just didn't know it. Tyler was a Klingon-turned-Human the whole time, we just didn't know it.

Pallidyne

Neems wrote: »

Speckles the Destroyer of Worlds wrote: »

Cards reflect who that character currently represents (or pretends to represent) in that snapshot of time. They do not reflect details from previous or later episodes. That's why we have a million different versions of people like Janeway and Seven that all have different stats and traits.

No need to change anything.

You have a point, but if you snapshot Lorca or Tyler at the moments in time we see them in the show, they are still what people are suggesting they should have traits for, we as an audience just didn't know it yet. Same way Seska shows up as Cardassian on her 2* card, which appears to be her before that detail about her race is revealed to the audience. She was Cardassian the whole time, we just didn't know it. Lorca was Mirror Universe the whole time, we just didn't know it. Tyler was a Klingon-turned-Human the whole time, we just didn't know it.

But did their counterparts exist? If so, these may be them....I don't think it was ever determined that there was a Bajoran Seska for her to have replaced.

SSR Barkley

some of these "spoiler" threads make those of us who haven't watched the show yet want to yell loud words in your general direction, merely because of the thread titles.

[TFA] CaptainObvious

SSR Barclay wrote: »

some of these "spoiler" threads make those of us who haven't watched the show yet want to yell loud words in your general direction, merely because of the thread titles.

Seconded. Maybe we could all agree to open one main spoiler thread per week ("DSC s1e10 implications for STT ***SPOILERS WITHIN***")?

South of Sulu

I think we have to let it play out. I think by seasons end, the pendulum will swing more towards leave this card as is and we need a new card. For Ash I think the current card could represent "Ash after episode 11".

[FF] Vice Admiral Nairne

[TFA] CaptainObvious wrote: »

SSR Barclay wrote: »

some of these "spoiler" threads make those of us who haven't watched the show yet want to yell loud words in your general direction, merely because of the thread titles.

Seconded. Maybe we could all agree to open one main spoiler thread per week ("DSC s1e10 implications for STT ***SPOILERS WITHIN***")?

Thirded. In fact, maybe OP could go back and change his title to something in that vein right now, rather than basically telling everyone who passes by with even a tiny bit of series knowledge

that Captain Lorca has been Mirror Universe the whole time

[FF] Vice Admiral Nairne

As for the actual content of the post, I'd say leave both Tyler and Lorca as-is. It's easy enough to

leave both as their prime Universe versions, and it actually makes more sense with Lorca's skills (did DB get lucky, or did DB know?) anyway - besides we know that both the Klingons and Lorca himself would have modeled their appearance as closely as possible to the originals in the name of passing themselves off as them.

Pallidyne

Guys the title states

1) Its a thread about Lorca
2) Its a discussion about his 'future' as a 'card' in game
3) There's spoilers to discuss.

If you can get that that means what the spoilers are saying from that you've already been reading the spoiler blogs or seen at least part of the reveal.

Might as well start making posts called "Post"

Commander Morak

Pallidyne wrote: »

Guys the title states

1) Its a thread about Lorca
2) Its a discussion about his 'future' as a 'card' in game
3) There's spoilers to discuss.

If you can get that that means what the spoilers are saying from that you've already been reading the spoiler blogs or seen at least part of the reveal.

Might as well start making posts called "Post"

I guess any hint of something interesting is too much to bear.

Could people resist the urge to see Mirror Saru's future as

a dinner entree?

[FF] Vice Admiral Nairne

Pallidyne wrote: »

Guys the title states

1) Its a thread about Lorca
2) Its a discussion about his 'future' as a 'card' in game
3) There's spoilers to discuss.

If you can get that that means what the spoilers are saying from that you've already been reading the spoiler blogs or seen at least part of the reveal.

Might as well start making posts called "Post"

Nonsense. I didn't get around to watching the latest episode until after checking the forums this morning (and I intentionally avoid discussions on DIS for this reason) and as soon as I saw the title I thought

"ah, so Lorca is Mirror Universe."

I mean, it's not all OP's fault - the majority of the blame has to go to Discovery's writers - but it was an unnecessary giveaway.

Data1001

[FF] Vice Admiral Nairne wrote: »

Pallidyne wrote: »

Guys the title states

1) Its a thread about Lorca
2) Its a discussion about his 'future' as a 'card' in game
3) There's spoilers to discuss.

If you can get that that means what the spoilers are saying from that you've already been reading the spoiler blogs or seen at least part of the reveal.

Might as well start making posts called "Post"

Nonsense. I didn't get around to watching the latest episode until after checking the forums this morning (and I intentionally avoid discussions on DIS for this reason) and as soon as I saw the title I thought

"ah, so Lorca is Mirror Universe."

I mean, it's not all OP's fault - the majority of the blame has to go to Discovery's writers - but it was an unnecessary giveaway.

I've realized I'm fighting a losing battle against posting spoilery stuff on the forums, as the cat is already out of the bag on a few key plot points. There are just too many people posting here... eventually someone will say something that reveals spoilers, probably without realizing the consequences of their actions. But then it's possible DB will spoil stuff just by releasing new DSC characters, anyway.

So... yeah.

(CSF) Jesus Is Lord [••••]

Meh...i tried @Data1001 to keep spoilers hidden...but when you say 'spoilers within' i guess that...spoils it (pun intended)

Travis S McClain

Mordack wrote: »

They've always been very reluctant to retroactively fix crew in the past, so I can't imagine they'll be doing it now with far less staff. Just expect a Mirror Lorca 5* at some point.

I dunno about "very reluctant". There was an entire thread on the old forum dedicated to questioning traits, and a lot of those revisions were ultimately implemented. They may not update cards as quickly as we'd like, but they have done it and sometimes they've done it en masse. Recall, for instance, that sweeping update a few months ago.

As for the point that each card is a snapshot of that specific persona in that episode/movie, that's the basic idea, but traits are also generally ascribed across all personae of a given character if it's accepted that that character would still be that thing in other personae.

Take, for instance, Ambassador Spock having the Astrophysicist trait. There's nothing in "Unification" that would make it apparent that he has that skill, and if you only watched TNG and knew nothing about Spock outside that one episode, you'd wonder why Timelines saw fit to bestow it on him. If you were familiar with Mr. Spock from TOS, though, you'd argue that we know he's trained and skilled as an Astrophysicist and he would still have that knowledge at that later point in his life even if he wasn't doing that work anymore.

Someone brought up Ensign Seska. Suppose Timelines was around when VOY launched, and that card was introduced before her true identity was revealed in "State of Flux" (episode 11). Would we object to her retroactively being given the Cardassian, Obsidian Order, and Undercover Operative traits? No one seems to have minded her having those traits when Timelines launched. Is retroactively adding Mirror Universe to Captain Gabriel Lorca any different from that?

The only argument that can be made that it is different rests on the fact that we already knew those things about Seska because her true identity had been revealed before Timelines launched. If Captain Gabriel Lorca had been introduced after his true identity was revealed, we would expect him to have the Mirror Universe trait--and we would expect it because of all the precedents like Ensign Seska.

[Not that it matters or that anyone asked, but my personal theory is that Mirror Lorca was the one who destroyed the U.S.S. Buran, with his Prime counterpart aboard as part of how he entered our universe.]

[10F] Belle'Anna

I'm with the whole 'snapshot' thingo. Especially for Ash. He believed he was Ash, to all intents and purposes he WAS Ash until he was triggered. And with Lorca, less so but still. I mean, DB releases cards with strange skills all the time (think Reinforcements Stamets) who isn't going to have engineering grafted on later, why do that for traits?

[TFA] CaptainObvious

(CSF) Jesus Is Lord [••••] wrote: »

Meh...i tried @Data1001 to keep spoilers hidden...but when you say 'spoilers within' i guess that...spoils it (pun intended)

You certainly did a better job than the clown who announced "Mirror Tilly" in the very thread name a few weeks back. But it also wouldn't hurt anyone to just don't highlight any particular aspect of that weeks show, would it?

Travis S McClain

Re: Snapshot Theory - Worth noting that Protomorphosis Barclay does not have the Human trait, but does still have the Astrophysicist trait. I guess maybe his webs were designed to recreate constellations? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

(CSF) Jesus Is Lord [••••]

[TFA] CaptainObvious wrote: »

(CSF) Jesus Is Lord [••••] wrote: »

Meh...i tried @Data1001 to keep spoilers hidden...but when you say 'spoilers within' i guess that...spoils it (pun intended)

You certainly did a better job than the clown who announced "Mirror Tilly" in the very thread name a few weeks back. But it also wouldn't hurt anyone to just don't highlight any particular aspect of that weeks show, would it?

Thanks lol...that was a big spoiler