Lost Revenue: Does the current honor exchange rate discourage your spending on packs?

Xoiiku · January 2018

These are the current exchange ratios:

For those interested, there is a wealth of discussion that has been had on the topic on the old forums:

And elsewhere on the new forums where the honor exchange rate and duplicates problem has been recently discussed:

WaldoMag · January 2018

Yes

I have to point out what your chart makes obvious.
I can dismiss a legendary 1F crew to get a Citation for a Uncommon Crew is almost one to one.

Pretty lousy.
It does seem to point to needing more honor in return for superrare and legendary crew.

Jim Steele · January 2018

Yes

The rates for common and rares seems fair. Why must I dismiss 90 Super Rare or Legendary characters to get a single equivalent citation??
An average voyage extension costs around 100 Dil and I can get more honour that way through dismissed crew than from the packs.

Data1001 · January 2018

No

Would it be nicer if I got more Honor for dismissing crew? Yes. But that's not what's stopping me from buying packs. Mainly it's the facts that 1) I have all the 3* crew I want/need, so any rares that I get are all useless; 2) the schematics are almost always of ships I have maxed out (none of the really new ones that I don't yet have); and 3), when I do get a Behold, it's usually a Super-rare Behold, and that often brings up three crew I already have FF. But I wouldn't buy premium packs more often even if a lot more Honor was involved in dismissing crew — I feel like I'm getting plenty of Honor from daily fleet rewards (and, to a lesser extent, Voyages), so I don't feel like I need to be buying Honor with Dilithium, which is basically what I'd be doing there. The only packs I buy any more are event packs and special offers with crew that I don't have yet.

WaldoMag · January 2018

Yes

@Data1001
Have to agree with your thoughts on how easy honor is to get.
But for me knowing if I do not get a legendary all I will get is honor and schematics does detour me from buying.
That is why I want to at least have an offer that lowers the cost of x10 premium pulls. The 10x10 premium for 10 at least has a decent shot at a legendary. Though I could end up with honor and schematics at least it was only $10.

I now look at iconic crew offer differently. I use to say it was three 10 for 10 and $20 dil for $50. Now I look at it as three 10 for 10 and two more x10 premium packs. Since 650 dil. gets you one x10 premium.

I passed on iconic crew a few times then I started buying it all the time offered. Now I will buy it at most once every 6 weeks when offered during that time span, for that opening pack addiction.

robownage · January 2018

No

No.

Granted, I'm still a relatively new player with relatively few FF'ed Super Rares, but if I'm buying a pack it's because I'm looking for characters. The Honor I get for trading in the ones I don't need is a nice bonus.

Commander Sinclair · January 2018

No

Given that I currently need 799,770 honour to FF only my 4* & 5* crew, I know that honour is horribly overpriced. That being said, I will continue to spend on packs to try and gain some *s for existing crew, and a few more that I want.

The Great Gornholio · January 2018

Yes

Yes.

I'm a LOT less inclined to spend on packs that have a really high chance of being all Honor. I understand this is a natural diminishing returns in the game, but it feels like there is nothing to offset the diminishing returns. I wish Honor from dismissed crew could be tied to VIP level in some way.

Astrometrics · January 2018

Yes

Oh it's this old horse again. I'm surprised it's still considered to be technically alive despite having been beaten so many times.

Prosser · January 2018

Yes

I've stopped buying the ten for $10 packs as it's usually all honor, and the amount you get is abismaly low. Pretty much only get event packs anymore, and only a couple so as to not have too much waste from them.

[SSR] GTMET · January 2018

Yes

I made my point in one of the above threads, but Absolutely Yes. If I am buying a pack I want to have some chance at actually getting value from them. Since I have a lot of super rares immortalized with such poor dismissal rates, I don't get value from them.

Xoiiku · January 2018

Yes

I think it might be helpful for people to specify their use case which informs their valuation for honor.

From my perspective as a long term player, of modest discretionary income, the current honor exchange rates are a huge disincentive to buy packs. I've stopped even doing the monthly card and saving up for event packs. For me, even buying event packs in the most economical way (monthly card and a very few of the special offers) there is no incentive, knowing that I will likely not get the crew I am after, and I will get less honor from buying an event pack than a couple days of fleet targets.

If, the honor exchange rate was reasonable, I'd go back to buying the monthly and occasional special offers. I know that isn't a huge amount of lost revenue as compared to what milking a new whale brings in. My curiosity for this poll is to try to see how many others are spending less and perhaps in the aggregate that sum would offer a compelling argument for reevaluating the honor exchange rate.

Some questions for the three explanations for the no votes:

@Data1001 What is the scenario with your crew and spending in which you feel like you are getting plenty of honor from fleet targets and voyages? Given that you have indicated a relatively low value for honor, would you consider duplicates from packs and beholds to more of a problem? If so, what about duplicates from voyages and events? If not an increased honor exchange rate, what would you propose as a solution for the duplicates issue?

@robownage Given that you are a relatively new player, and you're not going to be running into the duplicates problem as often as the long term players do, do you think your answer might change over time?

@Commander Sinclair You acknowledge that "honour is horribly overpriced", yet you state that you will continue to buy packs regardless of this fact. In your case, would a more equitable honor exchange rate encourage you to buy more packs?

Kaitee · January 2018

No

Honestly, no, I don't feel like it does discourage my spending, or really affect the decision in any way. Sure more would be nice, but truthfully I can't imagine any scenario where I'd put down dilithium for honour (short of ridiculous values that DB would never offer anyway, even if Rom took over as Grand DBgus) - what I spend on the game (and I'm VIP14, so I've spent my share), I spend to collect characters I like, and whether they're fully fused and levelled up... I like doing that, in the regular sense of doing missions, making equipment, turning up duplicates from packs and even buying a few citations along the way, but the 'numbers' side of the game just isn't a paying concern for me. I like that airlocking crew gives honour, and it'd be great if it gave more - it is a really slow process - but my buy/no-buy decisions come down only to who's in the pack (it's usually event packs, so at least there's a shortlist), nothing else.

[7TW] UnkieB · January 2018

I don't know if more honor on dismissals would get me to spend more or not. I mean I'd love to be able to cite 5*'s more often, but... Some of the rates I've seen bandied about in various threads just seem like they might break things.

It's gotta be tough for them to try and give us something for the dismissal of crew and yet not too much. If they give too much the bigger whales they rely on would FF everything quicker equaling less big spending from them I would think. That potential loss vs losing a few 10 for 10 and other occasional purchases from folks like me has got to make them a bit gun shy about adjustments.

The dupes thing isn't new with a digital CCG, the same thing happens with physical ones it's just that I don't have boxes full of useless common cards that can't really be sold laying around. Just like a CCG set eventually you reach a point of diminishing returns where it makes less and less sense to buy packs unless you accept that if you really want to "catch them all" you're going to get mostly junk that's not worth much.

Xoiiku · January 2018

Yes

@Kaitee What happens when you buy an event pack and get only duplicates worth a paltry amount of honor and some nearly useless replicator fuel? How does the variation in pack value (in the case of a duplicate 4* 1/90th rather than 90/90) not in any way influence your decision? Since you consider that it is a really slow process as VIP14, what do you think it is like for players with less discretionary income to throw at the game?

UnkieB wrote: »

It's gotta be tough for them to try and give us something for the dismissal of crew and yet not too much. If they give too much the bigger whales they rely on would FF everything quicker equaling less big spending from them I would think. That potential loss vs losing a few 10 for 10 and other occasional purchases from folks like me has got to make them a bit gun shy about adjustments.

This poll is trying to get a better sense of how much revenue is lost due to burnout and frustration due to the duplicates issue honor exchange rates. My impression is that if one totaled up all the packs and special offers not being sold to long term players across the spending spectrum, due to frustration, burnout and quitting the game, that it would be a far more considerable amount than just a "few".

The basic idea is that increasing the honor exchange rate would help recoup some of that lost revenue and lost good will. Some of the exchange rates proposed in other threads were mostly aimed at communicating the general consensus that almost everyone would like the rates to be better than they are now, and indicating the degree of the change that different segments of the player base thought more reasonable and why.

In terms of relying on the bigger whales, I think there is a bit of path dependency in that argument. Quite a few of the biggest whales have expressed that they have slowed or stopped spending due to the decreasing value in packs for them. A question there is, what is the typical drop-off in spending due to the existing game systems? Is that drop-off seen as inevitable, taken for granted rather than analyzed, then used to justify game systems which emphasize maximizing how much new whales will spend? Given the rate of new card introduction, this just isn't a situation where there is a limited supply of possible new cards. So the drop off in spending isn't due to running out of things. It is at least possible that retaining long term players is a potential revenue steam, and worth reconfiguring the exchange rates in order to accomplish that.

Female Klingon Q · January 2018

I’m probably in the minority, but the honor exchange rate has no impact on whether I decide to purchase packs.

...and in my experience, it’s time to let the topic of the honor exchange rate go. There are even more ways to get honor now than when this tired topic was started. No amount of walls of text are going to convince dB to change the honor exchange rate, imho.

Leola Root · January 2018

Yes

In another gacha game that I play with similar price tags it takes 7 packs of not getting a 5* card, or 10 packs of getting a potential 5* in every pack to acquire enough bonus currency to have your pick of an event legendary.

Imagine if this game would guarantee a bonus legendary in every of those 10 for 10$ offers?

So after all this time premium packs offer no value to me, I don't buy the said offer nor do I remember when was the last time I opened a community won premium pack and received anything useful.

At the moment nothing offers value to me apart from the monthly card. But then DB values 2400 credits to be put as part of a deal so resistance is most likely futile.

[OPA] Sky Marshall DaYng1 · January 2018

Yes

I can't say that the honor exchange rate stops me from buying as I don't buy anything anymore and barely log to get the freebies.

I can say however that it's one of the main reasons I am unengaged and apathetic towards this game. DB needs to loosen up their gambles on offer and rework this game.

It has become stale and expensive. I think to myself how does that work? The answer is not for long. If all I am being offered is ff beholds that have the aforementioned 90-1 exchange rate, why bother?

dunnagh · January 2018

Yes

Yes.
Most packs I buy (even elusive treasures) have VERY high Chance of giving me multiple useless duplicates. If you compare this to regular Booster buying, I am at a Point where only each 6th or so Booster nets me a new Card (and that doesnt say I Need this Card).
So except for free Boosters, I´ll probably not spend anymore.

With a better Exchange rate (say 1:5 in each bracket), I´d be inclined to though. I´m not dismissing legendaries, but if I Need to dismiss 250 purples to get me one star for one legendary, thats way off. 50 perhaps.

Pa · January 2018

The only thing keeping me from using or buying packs are all the new crew missing from the portal. There hasn't been an update in ages and I keep getting the same crew I already have. The last 5 4*-beholds I got were all already fully fused crew.

[BL] Q · January 2018

Yes

Pa wrote: »

The only thing keeping me from using or buying packs are all the new crew missing from the portal. There hasn't been an update in ages and I keep getting the same crew I already have. The last 5 4*-beholds I got were all already fully fused crew.

I don't understand why once the event crew portal is taken down the crew don't end up being added to the premium pack loot table?

Buying the event pack gives you better odds of getting the crew your after once they get added to the premium portal say every Tuesday or Wednesday your less likely to run into FF 4* & 5* beholds.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

If you have 1/4-3/4 of certain event crew at the end of an event your current choices are to either hold a space on your roster for 6 months+ or add honour lol.

Pa · January 2018

I understand why they don't immediately add them to the portal, no one would buy the event packs or double up offers. But at least some sort of automatism of adding crew and schematics 3 months after their creation/introduction should be possible.

robownage · January 2018

No

·§ë· Ambassador Xoiiku wrote: »

@robownage Given that you are a relatively new player, and you're not going to be running into the duplicates problem as often as the long term players do, do you think your answer might change over time?

No.

As I mentioned above, the incentive (for me) for purchasing new packs is the chance at new characters, not the possibility of exchanging characters for honor. My decision to buy packs is based on my financial state (I am certainly no whale), offers extended, and chance of getting someone I need in a pack. If I end up walking away with 1000 honor instead, then at least I'm 1% closer to Kahless (or his replacement).

Kaitee · January 2018

No

·§ë· Ambassador Xoiiku wrote: »

What happens when you buy an event pack and get only duplicates worth a paltry amount of honor and some nearly useless replicator fuel?

Done that (occasionally in stellar fashion, I blew though my entire dilithium savings at the time trying and failing to get Culber, sigh, love you Hugh come here) - it's a gamble. In gameplay terms, sure, the honour is welcome, and more would be great, but in spending terms, only characters - not their stats - are worth dilithium to me. So if I don't get the crew I want, from my point of view my dilithium's gone for nothing, but I know the odds going in (I'm a 40k gal in a past life, I know all about how sometimes, no matter how clever you are, you roll a 1 and some grot puts a hole through your captain's head) - if laying down my 650 dil and getting no crew in return ever upsets me longer than it takes to close the portal pull window, that's the day I'll stop spending at all. Honour just isn't part of the equation for me.

I'm not saying that's how everyone ought to play, it's just how I play, so that's why I'm a No here.

bowdy · January 2018

No

I'm not discouraged from buying packs because the honour return is so low, but as has already been pointed out, there's nothing in them I need. I already have all the SRs, rares and ships maxed and there's nothing in there worth getting. If I get a behold it's for an SR and I already have them all FF. If there was more honour I still wouldn't buy packs. I don't buy packs or event packs full stop. I finish top 1k every event, I don't need more duplicates, I just think the packs are very bad value for money.

guest_796746481635328 · January 2018

Owners of game are in it for no other reason then to make money. For everything added to game to please one group players something will be done by DB to displease another group of players, DB listen to players who wanted more things to do in game so they added voyages, it didn't take more than few days and players were complaining about lack of items and crew dropping on voyage, DB listened again and added more crew available to drop on voyages, then to offset the drop rate of crew on voyages they reduced drop rate of crew from packs, namely drop rate of beholds which seem to have disappeared for most part.
Keep pushing for DB give you more honor for deleting crew and they may give in but not without making changes to other ways we receive horor, like reducing what we gain from voyages and/or achievements.

[KF] Kapitan Dobchan · January 2018

No

Well, no. If anything, I am now more encouraged to save my merits in order to turn them into honor through the Merit portal packs. It happened to be a good thing, I am piling up honor at an acceptable rate, and also got RAF O'Brien and Nagus Rom as an added bonus.

I am still being careful when buying packs, and doing my best not to overspend, mainly due to the plethora of FFed Super rares. However, if a 10 for 10 offers pops, I never pass it up, mainly because for me it's like going out to play the lottery, or buy a card pack for some game. It scratches the itch, and I don't feel cheated out of my money.

Xoiiku · January 2018

Yes

Seems like there are quite a few yes and no votes who don't buy packs anyway because they already have everyone, or at least everyone who is in the premium pulls. It might be useful in that case, to differentiate between premium packs and event packs. It's fairly well established that particularly for long term players that there is very little value in premium packs. So, for long term players, do your thoughts about the influence of the honor rate on your purchasing choices hold true for both premium and event packs?

There seems to be a bit of misunderstanding in a couple posts as to the purpose, I am confident that no one is advocating for a higher honor exchange rate in order to purposefully convert dilithium directly into honor. It's my understanding that most people are probably making calculated risks, to get specific crew. So, to me at least, the idea is to mitigate the variability in the value of the premium and event packs. As well as retaining more of the value from duplicates earned through events and voyages.

I fully understand that some people really enjoy the gambling aspect of it, and that there is so much variability in what you can get from a pack. The primary idea here is to simply raise the minimum value of the pack (in the very common case of all duplicates), such that it doesn't discourage people from even trying for specific crew (buying packs).

Part of the difficulty in assessing the value of an exchange rate is that there is actually quite a lot of variation in how much a given sum of money is worth to different individuals. For those able, or just willing to spend lots of money, the honor rate could seem immaterial. For those of more modest means or spending habits, the honor exchange rate is far more pronounced.

It is important to consider other use cases, and see if there is some way that we could advocate together for some changes (such as increasing the honor rate) which would make the game more inclusive for players from across the spending spectrum.

From my perspective, I just think the time horizon on full fusing crew for a monthly card player (+/- some specials) is absurd, and communicates a disregard for that segment of the player base. I suggest that segment of the player base is large enough to warrant efforts to retain those players. If there was a higher minimum value on event packs, I would consider getting a monthly card again and saving up for them.

(HGH)Apollo · January 2018

No

I wish it was higher but it is much better than before the honor system existed and we get lots of honor from fleet rewards and voyages that we didnt used to.

Ivanstone · January 2018

No

More would be better but I only buy event or special packs anyways.

bowdy · February 2018

No

I already posted, but seeing as you asked for long term players to comment... it wouldn't make any difference to me if they changed the honour rate because I don't buy packs, event, premium or whatever. They are not worth a tenth of what DB charge for them.

Too much duplication, they are very bad value for money. And yes I have all the premium SRs FF so there is no point in getting them. Voyages gives me all the honour and SRs I need. So why would I ever buy packs? I can get legendaries from events and mega events and use my honour to buy legendary beholds and citations. Packs are a mugs game my opinion.

If you asked a different question, should we get more honour from dismissing of course I'd say yes. But you didn't ask that. So the answer is no.

Lost Revenue: Does the current honor exchange rate discourage your spending on packs?

Lost Revenue: Does the current honor exchange rate discourage your spending on packs? 148 votes

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