To sort-of go off topic, you are missing The Keeper in there with his SCI proficiency at 357–755 base.
On topic: Who knows why DB has not released an ENG proficiency powerhouse yet. Normally I go with either Tempted Data, or someone like Delta Flyer Paris if he gets an increased CRIT percentage for that Gauntlet round. It is about time we get a few competitive Gauntlet ENG crew.
I'm not missing him, I simply don't have him (or Seven of Nine, or Defensive Phlox) in my crew.
I was replying to the OP where the "Top 5 SCI" list excludes him.
All I have to go on is the wiki and sometimes it isn't updated in the sort function.
Mainly to get this info, I click a skill, and sort it by strongest at level 100 and go from there to see who fits the bill. He wasn't in the sort function though otherwise I would have included him.
Admiral of the Haus of GaghGagh, Starbase level 94, we are not accepting members at this time.
Captain of the voyage vessels: Queen of Bashir, Landsknecht, and Sunspear, the first luxury starship cruiseliners.
Amenities include wifi, fully-functioning holodecks, a full-service bar, 3 party decks, a Trill spa, and a business centre.
Fun fact: The ships are propelled by bouncy castle technology.
The problem is here that you appear to have the problem backwards. Instead of saying "Why does ENG Gauntlet not have overpowered characters like the rest of the skills do?" you should be saying "Thank goodness the ENG Gauntlet is balanced with nearly all ENG rolls being under ~500-600"
I was very afraid when Scotty came out that he would break the balance of the gauntlet, but thankfully, he didn't. So instead of seeing a wall of Scotty, we get variety; a Borg La Forge here, a de Neuf there, Tempted Data, Emotion Chip Data, Borg Torres, Mirror La Forge, etc etc. ENG Gauntlet is free from the wall of Locutus/Guinan, Peccard, and Mirror Phlox that plague most of the other gauntlets.
Please, do not ruin things going for us. If you think DB should have more ENG Gauntlet characters, that is understandable. But to say that you want an OP ENG Gauntlet crew that will permanently warp the gauntlet forever, is shortsighted to say the least.
Walls of Phlox occur because he's the only character with such high proficiencies. He's also been around for a while so lots of players have him. Picard occurs because he's widely available. The only way to counter that is to have other characters with abilities at those levels. You don't get them by saying 'meh I'm glad we don't have one more like that'. You get them by pointing out we need more variety. And we can all agree, we need more variety. And that means more characters with strong proficiencies because we can't remove those we already have from the game.
Walls of Phlox occur because he's the only character with such high proficiencies. He's also been around for a while so lots of players have him. Picard occurs because he's widely available. The only way to counter that is to have other characters with abilities at those levels. You don't get them by saying 'meh I'm glad we don't have one more like that'. You get them by pointing out we need more variety. And we can all agree, we need more variety. And that means more characters with strong proficiencies because we can't remove those we already have from the game.
That's exactly my point. If you disrupt what little balance exists, all new ENG Gauntlet characters will have to meet, or at least be able to compete, with that high roll. Which distorts the gauntlet and makes all of the previously sufficient gauntlet characters relatively obsolete. Just look at CMD, DIP, SEC, MED. All have insanely high normal gauntlet thresholds.
If you keep the bar set to a normal level say 500-600 ENG rolls, and simply add more ENG characters that do not exceed that threshold, then there is more variety. And all that needed to be done was to keep the status quo. However, if you hypothetically introduce a character with a gauntlet roll of upwards of 800, you just tossed the wide variety of options that already existed into the trash. And now you have to create a new sense of variety and introduce new gauntlet characters with rolls that can compete with it.
The problem is here that you appear to have the problem backwards. Instead of saying "Why does ENG Gauntlet not have overpowered characters like the rest of the skills do?" you should be saying "Thank goodness the ENG Gauntlet is balanced with nearly all ENG rolls being under ~500-600"
I was very afraid when Scotty came out that he would break the balance of the gauntlet, but thankfully, he didn't. So instead of seeing a wall of Scotty, we get variety; a Borg La Forge here, a de Neuf there, Tempted Data, Emotion Chip Data, Borg Torres, Mirror La Forge, etc etc. ENG Gauntlet is free from the wall of Locutus/Guinan, Peccard, and Mirror Phlox that plague most of the other gauntlets.
Please, do not ruin things going for us. If you think DB should have more ENG Gauntlet characters, that is understandable. But to say that you want an OP ENG Gauntlet crew that will permanently warp the gauntlet forever, is shortsighted to say the least.
I'm a little appalled that you think the gauntlet is balanced. I still don't find a lot of diversity in the gauntlet even though ENG doesn't have any high proficiency gauntleteers. You still get the same people, so having a strong ENG person is not honestly going to change what's broken with the gauntlet.
The only way to fix the issue you're conflating with ENG possibly getting a strong prof person, is for each gauntlet cycle to add negative traits to the positive bonus traits we get per cycle. A negative trait naturally will be the opposite of a bonus, it will detract from high rolls and instead give you possibly very low rolls. This can help curb walls of Locuti, Guinans, Picards, and Phloxes easy enough.
Just have each gauntlet cycle select 3 random bonus traits and 3 random unlucky traits. Naturally make sure the algorithm can't choose the same trait for a bonus and an unlucky one at the same time. So you could get a gauntlet with Brutal as a bonus, but oh no you got Borg and Cyberneticist as unlucky traits. Trust me, you will not be seeing walls of Locuti with him at a 25% disadvantage, you'll still see some Locuti but a lot of people will be jumping ship with him for that gauntlet and choosing someone else. Now if you get a 45% or 65% disadvantage with any of the normal wall gauntleteers, trust me you'll be singing the tune of "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!"
That's how you fix gauntlet, not by gatekeeping ENG characters from having high proficiencies.
/done
Admiral of the Haus of GaghGagh, Starbase level 94, we are not accepting members at this time.
Captain of the voyage vessels: Queen of Bashir, Landsknecht, and Sunspear, the first luxury starship cruiseliners.
Amenities include wifi, fully-functioning holodecks, a full-service bar, 3 party decks, a Trill spa, and a business centre.
Fun fact: The ships are propelled by bouncy castle technology.
In fact, having more eng will make people choose between someone who has a high eng and one of the other skills, in itself helping to walls of whoever. We need more variety in the gauntlet: eng can help provide that. It's a bummer that DB didn't really work through this, but it is and we need to come up with ideas to counter it or change things, ideas that DB might pick up on amd start to introduce.
To sort-of go off topic, you are missing The Keeper in there with his SCI proficiency at 357–755 base.
On topic: Who knows why DB has not released an ENG proficiency powerhouse yet. Normally I go with either Tempted Data, or someone like Delta Flyer Paris if he gets an increased CRIT percentage for that Gauntlet round. It is about time we get a few competitive Gauntlet ENG crew.
I'm not missing him, I simply don't have him (or Seven of Nine, or Defensive Phlox) in my crew.
I was replying to the OP where the "Top 5 SCI" list excludes him.
All I have to go on is the wiki and sometimes it isn't updated in the sort function.
Mainly to get this info, I click a skill, and sort it by strongest at level 100 and go from there to see who fits the bill. He wasn't in the sort function though otherwise I would have included him.
The problem is here that you appear to have the problem backwards. Instead of saying "Why does ENG Gauntlet not have overpowered characters like the rest of the skills do?" you should be saying "Thank goodness the ENG Gauntlet is balanced with nearly all ENG rolls being under ~500-600"
I was very afraid when Scotty came out that he would break the balance of the gauntlet, but thankfully, he didn't. So instead of seeing a wall of Scotty, we get variety; a Borg La Forge here, a de Neuf there, Tempted Data, Emotion Chip Data, Borg Torres, Mirror La Forge, etc etc. ENG Gauntlet is free from the wall of Locutus/Guinan, Peccard, and Mirror Phlox that plague most of the other gauntlets.
Please, do not ruin things going for us. If you think DB should have more ENG Gauntlet characters, that is understandable. But to say that you want an OP ENG Gauntlet crew that will permanently warp the gauntlet forever, is shortsighted to say the least.
I'm a little appalled that you think the gauntlet is balanced. I still don't find a lot of diversity in the gauntlet even though ENG doesn't have any high proficiency gauntleteers. You still get the same people, so having a strong ENG person is not honestly going to change what's broken with the gauntlet.
The only way to fix the issue you're conflating with ENG possibly getting a strong prof person, is for each gauntlet cycle to add negative traits to the positive bonus traits we get per cycle. A negative trait naturally will be the opposite of a bonus, it will detract from high rolls and instead give you possibly very low rolls. This can help curb walls of Locuti, Guinans, Picards, and Phloxes easy enough.
Just have each gauntlet cycle select 3 random bonus traits and 3 random unlucky traits. Naturally make sure the algorithm can't choose the same trait for a bonus and an unlucky one at the same time. So you could get a gauntlet with Brutal as a bonus, but oh no you got Borg and Cyberneticist as unlucky traits. Trust me, you will not be seeing walls of Locuti with him at a 25% disadvantage, you'll still see some Locuti but a lot of people will be jumping ship with him for that gauntlet and choosing someone else. Now if you get a 45% or 65% disadvantage with any of the normal wall gauntleteers, trust me you'll be singing the tune of "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!"
That's how you fix gauntlet, not by gatekeeping ENG characters from having high proficiencies.
/done
Let's review some of the top ENG Gauntlet characters: You have Mirror La Forge, Assimilated La Forge, Assimilated Torres, North Star Tucker, Tempted Data, Emotion Chip Data, Seven of Nine, Grand Proxy Neelix, EV Suit Tucker, One, Daystrom, Duelist Torres, Augment Riker are all able to hit rolls above 400 topping out at 563 (Tempted Data). That's a LOT of potential choices and that's not accounting for characters like Mademoiselle De Neuf, Delta Flyer Paris, or Leonardo Da Vinci whose second and third rolls help fill in the gap.
Compare that to MED, CMD, or DIP where the high rolls dominate. How is that you can say that 'you don't find a lot of diversity' here? The relative parity of ENG rolls results in a more competive, diverse gauntlet. And granted, the gauntlet is not perfect, it is not completely balanced; the ENG gauntlet could use even more gauntlet characters to make it more competitive. However, throwing a wrench into the works and introducing a high-roll gauntlet ENG character does not fix anything.
It only makes the situation worse. Now instead of having many options, limited to one. Which means you need to introduce more high roll ENG characters to compensate...aaaaaand you are right back at to where you started. What comes next? Introduce a character with an even higher ENG roll and start the cycle again? And that is not even taking into account the associated power creep and effects on normal mission progression.
The idea of negative traits is...intriguing. But it does not directly deal with the issue at hand; Whether or not DB should introduce 'High-Proficiency' ENG characters.
The problem is here that you appear to have the problem backwards. Instead of saying "Why does ENG Gauntlet not have overpowered characters like the rest of the skills do?" you should be saying "Thank goodness the ENG Gauntlet is balanced with nearly all ENG rolls being under ~500-600"
I was very afraid when Scotty came out that he would break the balance of the gauntlet, but thankfully, he didn't. So instead of seeing a wall of Scotty, we get variety; a Borg La Forge here, a de Neuf there, Tempted Data, Emotion Chip Data, Borg Torres, Mirror La Forge, etc etc. ENG Gauntlet is free from the wall of Locutus/Guinan, Peccard, and Mirror Phlox that plague most of the other gauntlets.
Please, do not ruin things going for us. If you think DB should have more ENG Gauntlet characters, that is understandable. But to say that you want an OP ENG Gauntlet crew that will permanently warp the gauntlet forever, is shortsighted to say the least.
I'm a little appalled that you think the gauntlet is balanced. I still don't find a lot of diversity in the gauntlet even though ENG doesn't have any high proficiency gauntleteers. You still get the same people, so having a strong ENG person is not honestly going to change what's broken with the gauntlet.
The only way to fix the issue you're conflating with ENG possibly getting a strong prof person, is for each gauntlet cycle to add negative traits to the positive bonus traits we get per cycle. A negative trait naturally will be the opposite of a bonus, it will detract from high rolls and instead give you possibly very low rolls. This can help curb walls of Locuti, Guinans, Picards, and Phloxes easy enough.
Just have each gauntlet cycle select 3 random bonus traits and 3 random unlucky traits. Naturally make sure the algorithm can't choose the same trait for a bonus and an unlucky one at the same time. So you could get a gauntlet with Brutal as a bonus, but oh no you got Borg and Cyberneticist as unlucky traits. Trust me, you will not be seeing walls of Locuti with him at a 25% disadvantage, you'll still see some Locuti but a lot of people will be jumping ship with him for that gauntlet and choosing someone else. Now if you get a 45% or 65% disadvantage with any of the normal wall gauntleteers, trust me you'll be singing the tune of "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!"
That's how you fix gauntlet, not by gatekeeping ENG characters from having high proficiencies.
/done
Let's review some of the top ENG Gauntlet characters: You have Mirror La Forge, Assimilated La Forge, Assimilated Torres, North Star Tucker, Tempted Data, Emotion Chip Data, Seven of Nine, Grand Proxy Neelix, EV Suit Tucker, One, Daystrom, Duelist Torres, Augment Riker are all able to hit rolls above 400 topping out at 563 (Tempted Data). That's a LOT of potential choices and that's not accounting for characters like Mademoiselle De Neuf, Delta Flyer Paris, or Leonardo Da Vinci whose second and third rolls help fill in the gap.
The problem is potential diversity does not equate to the real diversity we encounter.
Out of all of these engineers, the only ones I ever see are Assimilated La Forge, North Star Tucker, and Tempted Data. I can't count Seven of Nine here or Daystrom, because when people use them in the gauntlet, they are chosen primarily with their science in mind, not their engineering which is a secondhand plus. Assimilated La Forge, North Star Tucker, and Tempted Data however, when they appear in gauntlet, they were chosen specifically for their engineering skill.
Have I seen the others you've mentioned? Yes, but honestly it is very seldom. I can't recall the last time I ever faced a Duelist Torres, EV Suit Tucker, or Grand Proxy Neelix for example. But now we see an interesting consistency, if 3 crew are usually the most chosen for engineering, well that matches up pretty much with what we see in every other skill.
In command, the people we see most are Mirror Picard, Kahless, and probably Nechayev.
In diplomacy, the people we see most are Guinan, Locutus, and Gowron.
In security, the most consistent person to see is Gangster Spock, then maybe Disguised Kira and Mademoiselle de Neuf.
In medicine, the people we see most are Mirror Phlox, Defensive Phlox, and Doc Crusher.
And in science, the people we see most are Seven of Nine, Daystrom, and maybe Mirror T'Pol.
So if we have 3 consistent engineers being chosen and pretty much 3 of the same crew being chosen in each skill, then engineering not having any high rollers doesn't add as much diversity as you are claiming.
Is the potential diversity there? Yes, absolutely.
Is the potential diversity the actual reality of diversity encountered? No, it's not.
In such a case, then the addition of a high proficiency ENG crew would honestly change nothing except perhaps one of those engineering crew who were consistently seen before would be less seen as they'd be seemingly replaced by the new high roller. If we are still able to see crew such as Mademoiselle and Mirror T'Pol rather consistently despite the existence of higher rollers in those skills, then that does not mean a high roller being introduced in engineering would offset much if anything at all.
Admiral of the Haus of GaghGagh, Starbase level 94, we are not accepting members at this time.
Captain of the voyage vessels: Queen of Bashir, Landsknecht, and Sunspear, the first luxury starship cruiseliners.
Amenities include wifi, fully-functioning holodecks, a full-service bar, 3 party decks, a Trill spa, and a business centre.
Fun fact: The ships are propelled by bouncy castle technology.
More diversity would then suggest different pairings. Five engineers each paired with a different skill, and so on. Mirror Phlox could be well offset by 5 different crew with another skill in diplomacy, engineering, science, and command. It would make him less useful if there were other alternatives. He can be tackled by Gillian Taylor, for example, if science is the secondary pairing. But she's a bit weak if it's just a standoff between medical skills.
The problem is, though, is that he's the one the algorithm will choose as an opponent if it's a Medical standoff and therefore she doesn't stand a chance most times. Which actually suggests there needs to be tweaking in those algorithms as much as new crew added. Most players pick those crew because the algorithm picks them over any alternative. There should be a system which says if theres already a Phlox in the mix, it will look for the next best. And then the next. Until the choices are filled with the six best available in descending order.
Also, I think a lose should result in double tiredness, not a wipe-out. It would encourage more stand-offs between equal crew and encourage players to be more courageous with the choices they use. Sure, lose your streak, but lose your crew at the same time? The other day I lost two of my best crew on the first two challenges, and of course my streak. That's just very frustrating, but if I knew I wasn't going to go up against a wall of Picard's and Guinan's the next time those skills came up I'd probably have had more fun carrying on. Instead I played another round and left it. Not worth the merits hunting for a challenge I can actually do.
Comments
All I have to go on is the wiki and sometimes it isn't updated in the sort function.
Mainly to get this info, I click a skill, and sort it by strongest at level 100 and go from there to see who fits the bill. He wasn't in the sort function though otherwise I would have included him.
Captain of the voyage vessels: Queen of Bashir, Landsknecht, and Sunspear, the first luxury starship cruiseliners.
Amenities include wifi, fully-functioning holodecks, a full-service bar, 3 party decks, a Trill spa, and a business centre.
Fun fact: The ships are propelled by bouncy castle technology.
I was very afraid when Scotty came out that he would break the balance of the gauntlet, but thankfully, he didn't. So instead of seeing a wall of Scotty, we get variety; a Borg La Forge here, a de Neuf there, Tempted Data, Emotion Chip Data, Borg Torres, Mirror La Forge, etc etc. ENG Gauntlet is free from the wall of Locutus/Guinan, Peccard, and Mirror Phlox that plague most of the other gauntlets.
Please, do not ruin things going for us. If you think DB should have more ENG Gauntlet characters, that is understandable. But to say that you want an OP ENG Gauntlet crew that will permanently warp the gauntlet forever, is shortsighted to say the least.
I second that!
Check out our website to find out more:
https://wiki.tenforwardloungers.com/
That's exactly my point. If you disrupt what little balance exists, all new ENG Gauntlet characters will have to meet, or at least be able to compete, with that high roll. Which distorts the gauntlet and makes all of the previously sufficient gauntlet characters relatively obsolete. Just look at CMD, DIP, SEC, MED. All have insanely high normal gauntlet thresholds.
If you keep the bar set to a normal level say 500-600 ENG rolls, and simply add more ENG characters that do not exceed that threshold, then there is more variety. And all that needed to be done was to keep the status quo. However, if you hypothetically introduce a character with a gauntlet roll of upwards of 800, you just tossed the wide variety of options that already existed into the trash. And now you have to create a new sense of variety and introduce new gauntlet characters with rolls that can compete with it.
I'm a little appalled that you think the gauntlet is balanced. I still don't find a lot of diversity in the gauntlet even though ENG doesn't have any high proficiency gauntleteers. You still get the same people, so having a strong ENG person is not honestly going to change what's broken with the gauntlet.
The only way to fix the issue you're conflating with ENG possibly getting a strong prof person, is for each gauntlet cycle to add negative traits to the positive bonus traits we get per cycle. A negative trait naturally will be the opposite of a bonus, it will detract from high rolls and instead give you possibly very low rolls. This can help curb walls of Locuti, Guinans, Picards, and Phloxes easy enough.
Just have each gauntlet cycle select 3 random bonus traits and 3 random unlucky traits. Naturally make sure the algorithm can't choose the same trait for a bonus and an unlucky one at the same time. So you could get a gauntlet with Brutal as a bonus, but oh no you got Borg and Cyberneticist as unlucky traits. Trust me, you will not be seeing walls of Locuti with him at a 25% disadvantage, you'll still see some Locuti but a lot of people will be jumping ship with him for that gauntlet and choosing someone else. Now if you get a 45% or 65% disadvantage with any of the normal wall gauntleteers, trust me you'll be singing the tune of "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!"
That's how you fix gauntlet, not by gatekeeping ENG characters from having high proficiencies.
/done
Captain of the voyage vessels: Queen of Bashir, Landsknecht, and Sunspear, the first luxury starship cruiseliners.
Amenities include wifi, fully-functioning holodecks, a full-service bar, 3 party decks, a Trill spa, and a business centre.
Fun fact: The ships are propelled by bouncy castle technology.
Check out our website to find out more:
https://wiki.tenforwardloungers.com/
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1v97w1ji56MLpCBBhR3xoZpAW8yx5jYoWmH2jNKq27TI/edit#gid=1942976
Let's review some of the top ENG Gauntlet characters: You have Mirror La Forge, Assimilated La Forge, Assimilated Torres, North Star Tucker, Tempted Data, Emotion Chip Data, Seven of Nine, Grand Proxy Neelix, EV Suit Tucker, One, Daystrom, Duelist Torres, Augment Riker are all able to hit rolls above 400 topping out at 563 (Tempted Data). That's a LOT of potential choices and that's not accounting for characters like Mademoiselle De Neuf, Delta Flyer Paris, or Leonardo Da Vinci whose second and third rolls help fill in the gap.
Compare that to MED, CMD, or DIP where the high rolls dominate. How is that you can say that 'you don't find a lot of diversity' here? The relative parity of ENG rolls results in a more competive, diverse gauntlet. And granted, the gauntlet is not perfect, it is not completely balanced; the ENG gauntlet could use even more gauntlet characters to make it more competitive. However, throwing a wrench into the works and introducing a high-roll gauntlet ENG character does not fix anything.
It only makes the situation worse. Now instead of having many options, limited to one. Which means you need to introduce more high roll ENG characters to compensate...aaaaaand you are right back at to where you started. What comes next? Introduce a character with an even higher ENG roll and start the cycle again? And that is not even taking into account the associated power creep and effects on normal mission progression.
The idea of negative traits is...intriguing. But it does not directly deal with the issue at hand; Whether or not DB should introduce 'High-Proficiency' ENG characters.
The problem is potential diversity does not equate to the real diversity we encounter.
Out of all of these engineers, the only ones I ever see are Assimilated La Forge, North Star Tucker, and Tempted Data. I can't count Seven of Nine here or Daystrom, because when people use them in the gauntlet, they are chosen primarily with their science in mind, not their engineering which is a secondhand plus. Assimilated La Forge, North Star Tucker, and Tempted Data however, when they appear in gauntlet, they were chosen specifically for their engineering skill.
Have I seen the others you've mentioned? Yes, but honestly it is very seldom. I can't recall the last time I ever faced a Duelist Torres, EV Suit Tucker, or Grand Proxy Neelix for example. But now we see an interesting consistency, if 3 crew are usually the most chosen for engineering, well that matches up pretty much with what we see in every other skill.
In command, the people we see most are Mirror Picard, Kahless, and probably Nechayev.
In diplomacy, the people we see most are Guinan, Locutus, and Gowron.
In security, the most consistent person to see is Gangster Spock, then maybe Disguised Kira and Mademoiselle de Neuf.
In medicine, the people we see most are Mirror Phlox, Defensive Phlox, and Doc Crusher.
And in science, the people we see most are Seven of Nine, Daystrom, and maybe Mirror T'Pol.
So if we have 3 consistent engineers being chosen and pretty much 3 of the same crew being chosen in each skill, then engineering not having any high rollers doesn't add as much diversity as you are claiming.
Is the potential diversity there? Yes, absolutely.
Is the potential diversity the actual reality of diversity encountered? No, it's not.
In such a case, then the addition of a high proficiency ENG crew would honestly change nothing except perhaps one of those engineering crew who were consistently seen before would be less seen as they'd be seemingly replaced by the new high roller. If we are still able to see crew such as Mademoiselle and Mirror T'Pol rather consistently despite the existence of higher rollers in those skills, then that does not mean a high roller being introduced in engineering would offset much if anything at all.
Captain of the voyage vessels: Queen of Bashir, Landsknecht, and Sunspear, the first luxury starship cruiseliners.
Amenities include wifi, fully-functioning holodecks, a full-service bar, 3 party decks, a Trill spa, and a business centre.
Fun fact: The ships are propelled by bouncy castle technology.
The problem is, though, is that he's the one the algorithm will choose as an opponent if it's a Medical standoff and therefore she doesn't stand a chance most times. Which actually suggests there needs to be tweaking in those algorithms as much as new crew added. Most players pick those crew because the algorithm picks them over any alternative. There should be a system which says if theres already a Phlox in the mix, it will look for the next best. And then the next. Until the choices are filled with the six best available in descending order.
Check out our website to find out more:
https://wiki.tenforwardloungers.com/
Check out our website to find out more:
https://wiki.tenforwardloungers.com/