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Legitimate Dominion question

If (per db announcement) Roga Danar is considered augmented due to genetic engineering, shouldn’t all Jem Hadar and Vorta be considered augmented too?
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  • For CardassiaFor Cardassia ✭✭✭✭✭
    Hmm...they're not so much augmented as "genetically engineered".

    Meaning that prior to the Founders, they were very, very different beings. I think the Vorta were sentient (according to Weyoun's story at least), but the Jem'Hadar were possible just mildly intelligent lizards or something. In that case they aren't existing lifeforms that have been "enhanced", they've been built and redesigned almost from the ground up.

    At least that's the distinction I make. Augments are "modified" or "upgraded" whereas the Vorta and Jem'Hadar were something totally fresh and new, completely unrecognisable from their base species.
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  • [NDQ] Joker41NAM[NDQ] Joker41NAM ✭✭✭✭
    Honestly, I didn't think Danar was technically genetically enhanced. IIRC, he was chemically treated for improvements, but removing those chemicals would reverse the effects, without permanent genetic changes. The Angosians simply didn't bother to, because they thought the psych conditioning weren't fixable.
  • PallidynePallidyne ✭✭✭✭✭
    The Vorta would be considered augmented since they augmented an already existing species. (A pre-engineered Vorta saved a founder and them becoming what they are now was the reward.)

    The Jem Hadar I think were created from scratch but I could be mistaken
  • For CardassiaFor Cardassia ✭✭✭✭✭
    Dralix wrote: »
    At least that's the distinction I make. Augments are "modified" or "upgraded" whereas the Vorta and Jem'Hadar were something totally fresh and new, completely unrecognisable from their base species.

    I view it slightly different. Vorta and Jem'Hadar are not augments because there is no non augmented form. Khan is augmented human - superior to existing non augmented humans. Ditto Roga Danar vs other Angosians.

    Yeah, that works too.
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  • PallidynePallidyne ✭✭✭✭✭
    Dralix wrote: »
    At least that's the distinction I make. Augments are "modified" or "upgraded" whereas the Vorta and Jem'Hadar were something totally fresh and new, completely unrecognisable from their base species.

    I view it slightly different. Vorta and Jem'Hadar are not augments because there is no non augmented form. Khan is augmented human - superior to existing non augmented humans. Ditto Roga Danar vs other Angosians.

    But there were non augmented Vorta that existed prior to encountering the Founders.
  • DralixDralix ✭✭✭✭✭
    Pallidyne wrote: »
    But there were non augmented Vorta that existed prior to encountering the Founders.

    Past tense. I would view those as ancestors to present day Vorta, like Australopithecus to humans. Sure they were genetically engineered to be what the Founders wanted. But that's the entire species. They aren't a subset of a population, augmented to be improved from the baseline.
  • [S14] Elynduil[S14] Elynduil ✭✭✭✭
    So we could theorize that there needs to be some form of intra-cultural tension to qualify as an Augment.

    Of course, this is all highly speculative, because Roga Danar isn't part of the traditional Khan-Augment story line that has its roots in the Eugenics Wars, nor is Bashir, for that matter. Yet, I am in favour of their inclusion here, since the strictest definition of Augment would limit the category quite a bit, since there were only so many characters of that group ever shown on screen. Including all Vorta and Jem'hadar, on the other hand, would make it too wide a definition, imho
  • jestergeniejestergenie ✭✭✭
    Actually it's very simple case. These Augments we are talking about are written with capital A. That's why they are not just any augments. They are The Augments. It's a proper name, not appellative. Vorta and Jem'Hadar are not The Augments.
  • Average GuyAverage Guy ✭✭✭✭
    Someone else, can't remember who on this forum, used an analogy between Changeling/Shapeshifter.

    The Jem Hadar are species that have been genetically enhanced/engineered. They should have two traits, Jem Hadar and augmented (This is a simplification so we don't have too many categories as we don't need to split hairs. They have been turbo charged genetically). The new guy Danar has also been genetically enhanced so he should have Angosian and augment. The Augments (TOS) were genetically enhanced so they should have Human and augment.

    I can't remember but weren't the Voros clones? If so, copies shouldn't be augment unless they are turbocharged genetically.

  • [S14] Elynduil[S14] Elynduil ✭✭✭✭
    @Average Guy An elegant, logical solution. The Vulcans would approve.

    Humans would disapprove, however, since Augments (proper noun) would lose any meaning as a faction.

    So I guess we're left with the not-quite-logical-but-mostly-effective mixed-bag status-quo that we have now...
  • WaldoMagWaldoMag ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2018
    Augments better? If so they would have won the Eugenics War.

    As Erik Arik Soong would have said, they were flawed.
    As he tried to correct the Embryos in the Enterprise episode. And also he had made changes to the embryos that he did raise.
  • JhamelJhamel ✭✭✭✭✭
    If the Jham'Hadar are only genetically engineered, then what is Jules? They mentioned a lot that he is also genetically enhanced or engineered ... so technically he isn't an Augment either?
    "Everything about the Jem'Hadar is lethal!" - Eris (ST-DS9 Episode 2x26 "The Jem'Hadar")
  • Average GuyAverage Guy ✭✭✭✭
    Elynduil wrote: »
    @Average Guy An elegant, logical solution. The Vulcans would approve.

    Humans would disapprove, however, since Augments (proper noun) would lose any meaning as a faction.

    So I guess we're left with the not-quite-logical-but-mostly-effective mixed-bag status-quo that we have now...

    I just expanded on someone else's idea. We could still keep the Augments faction for everyone that doesn't fit somewhere else. Kahn wasn't Federation so he and his group along with Danar and others could be the Augment faction. Jem Hadar Vorta would prioritize the Dominion faction because the group is big enough to be it's own faction.
  • MagisseMagisse ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2018
    WaldoMag wrote: »
    Augments better? If so they would have won the Eugenics War.

    Well according to the book "The Eugenic Wars", they mainly lost because
    they kept fighting each other. And because Gary Seven (who's practically an Augment as well), ultimately stopped Khan. And Khan chose to go into space exile rather than destroy the Earth.
  • Shy KhanShy Khan ✭✭✭✭✭
    The Suliban should be, as well.
    Come join the Steeler Nation Fleet!
  • t<G>e  Roonist<G>e Roonis ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2018
    Blank
  • t<G>e  Roonist<G>e Roonis ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2018
    When has DB ever been consistent with traits? crew from the same one off episode are issued traits by different standards. what qualifies as an augment is determined by what suits the narrative at the time.
  • Shy Khan wrote: »
    The Suliban should be, as well.

    Yup. I forgot about them. Silek specifically uses the word “augmented”.
  • "I am Tosk."
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  • edited May 2018
    Etienne wrote: »
    I think y' all are missing the obvious

    The people who play Timelines are generally major ST fans.... have watched every episode (often several times or more ) The players understand the plots, back stories, canon.

    The people who work for DB, the programmers, designers etc... aren't necessarily ST fanatics in the same way as the players. I am sure the do their research but they haven't ripped apart every episode and pondered the meaning of every word in the same way as a real ST fan. It's just their job 5 days a week... it's how they put food on the table.

    So what to them makes perfect sense.... to you is often blasphemy :)

    Another thing to consider for traits is that DB has to balance lore-correctness with in-game usefulness. Sometimes they give traits that are a bit of a stretch lore-wise in order to have a gameplay effect, such as the Mintakan crew (Mintakan will likely never be used in gameplay) having the Vulcan trait as well (which is commonly used), even if it isn't a perfect fit.
  • WaldoMagWaldoMag ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2018
    Magisse wrote: »
    WaldoMag wrote: »
    Augments better? If so they would have won the Eugenics War.

    Well according to the book "The Eugenic Wars", they mainly lost because
    they kept fighting each other. And because Gary Seven (who's practically an Augment as well), ultimately stopped Khan. And Khan chose to go into space exile rather than destroy the Earth.

    The fact they fought each other is their major flaw.
    Reminds me of Highlander there can be only one.
    Realistically no Augment (Eugenic) would want to be subordinate to any one.
    I gather that Kahn was able to stop this fighting among each other. However, I never saw a reason why any of the other augments with him would actually let him be their leader. Possibly in the movie the others were children of augments. That could be a reason for them in the movie. I would expect that Kahn was not the only one from the Bounty Botany Bay to survive in that movie. But I would have to watch the movie again to see.

    Edit: I realize I have to clarify my augment to Eugenic Augments
  • [DC] Principia[DC] Principia ✭✭✭✭
    Khan already had followers who were fellow augments before he went into exile; that's who the other passengers on his ship were. The large majority of that group were still alive in cryostasis when the Enterprise found them.

    However, unless the growth into adulthood for Khan-style augments had been accelerated, there wouldn't have been enough time elapsed for those followers to have kids and then those kids to have become even the youngish adult crew we see in Wrath of Khan. They could have been second-generation augments to begin with, though.
  • Average GuyAverage Guy ✭✭✭✭
    Someone else, can't remember who on this forum, used an analogy between Changeling/Shapeshifter.

    The Jem Hadar are species that have been genetically enhanced/engineered. They should have two traits, Jem Hadar and augmented (This is a simplification so we don't have too many categories as we don't need to split hairs. They have been turbo charged genetically). The new guy Danar has also been genetically enhanced so he should have Angosian and augment. The Augments (TOS) were genetically enhanced so they should have Human and augment.

    I can't remember but weren't the Voros clones? If so, copies shouldn't be augment unless they are turbocharged genetically.

    There are two different concepts in science fiction: augment and uplift.
    Both examples came from H G Wells. Uplift is when entire species/group is raised to a certain level by another “patron” species as David Brin later defined.

    Real world examples are any ancient empire du jour spreading cultural or engineering breakthroughs to subject tribes. And as per earth examples most emperors after certain time hailed from modern balkans from “uplifted” tribes rather than Rome proper.

    Khan crew and even Danar et all are Augments; individually chosen.

    Founders as patron species uplifted Vorta and Jem’Hadar.
    Even Borg are non discriminatory in assimilation and does not fit Augment definition.

    As for augments there was season 2 TNG episode with enhanced children at federation research outpost where Pulaski aged very fast.... whatever happened to that Arc.

    Bashir sr spends time in jail while Starfleet is openly conducting genetic manipulation!!!
    No wonder Julian has gone to dark side!


    The example of uplifting you are giving us from H.G. Wells is people being given aqueducts, education, gun powder or warp drive or whatever to raise their level of advancement. This is nice, but this is also science fiction, where the goal is create something entertaining and new. If the creators of Star Trek and their offshoot projects want to limit their creativity to what H.G. Wells wrote, that is nice, but it is neither true science fiction nor creative. With respect to H.G. Wells who was a pioneer, Star Trek needs to create for Star Trek, not for H.G. Wells. Given his creativity, he probably would agree with that.

    To clarify a point, not because I want to start a political discussion but to show how your example is a bit off. The Romans admired some of their "uplifted" tribes (i.e. The Greeks) that they copied their entire mythological system and used their philosophers to educate the Roman children. Half the Italian peninsula was full of Greek settlements from the previous two hundred years. So if some of their emperors with Roman citizenship had Greek decent this would not be considered uplifting as described by Mr Wells. A better example might be the Romans passing this knowledge to another tribe, not the Greeks.

    Also, this example doesn't completely apply to the Jem Hadar or Vorta because the discussion, as far as I understood, has been about genetic modification and how to classify those characters in this game, not about cultural engineering or technological advancement. The Jem Hadar and Vorta had their code tinkered with. The question is where to put them? The human augments had their code tinkered with, where do we put them? We have a whole new group coming in this Mega event (perhaps genetically modified, perhaps not), so where do we put them. This should be for the Star Trek world to decide. If it works with H.G. Wells' definition, then great, if not, I don't think most people would care because we are playing Star Trek now, not reading Mr Wells' books.


    The Borg from my understanding are not genetically modified, (please correct me if I am wrong) but Picard didn't seem to come back with any genetic benefits and 7 of 9 had a whole bucketful of technological ones since her benefits come from technology, not genetic engineering. Plus, I had said where there were a large number, they should go with first with their species first and the left overs go as augments (if they had genetic modification).

    Final disclaimer with which I think most people will agree, if the STT team wants to include other types of augmentation as augments, that is their privilege as creators 😀. However, The Augments up to now had been genetically modified so any discussion about augments needs to start there, not with cultural or technological advancement, despite what is written elsewhere in the sci-fi universe.
  • Average GuyAverage Guy ✭✭✭✭
    Just to clarify, we don't know how many individuals were chosen or if the entire species was affected with the Jem Hadar or Vorta. This is why uplifting shouldn't apply to them. They might have taken a few dozen of each, destroyed the rest and started experimenting. It doesn't matter, if genetic tinkering happened then they have been augmented. Whether this applies to one or the whole species is irrelevant, they were boosted genetically which can't be taken away. You can however, take away uplifting.
  • Khan says in the movie to First Officer Chekov that theyre opinions cant be swayed that they swore their lives to him two hundred years before he (Chekov) was born.

    Inference: they were cryostasis augments,
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