Weird crossing over of Timelines and Universes? Expect the unexpected.
In fact, be grateful it isn't much weirder than it is. The potential for all sorts of crazy is there, with enough imagination..
Well, we've already had crossovers with DC and Marvel in the books and comics, and there's going to be a Transformers crossover shortly apparently...
I'm just waiting for the My Little Pony crossover! Bronies vs Trekkies, think I'd maybe invest in a deck chair and some Mai Tais and sit back to enjoy the ensuing panjandrums.
Not especially, whenever a non-canon crew is announced a portion of the board comes a-running to complain, so I figured I'd ask the question.
And many of the knee-jerk complaints, given the core plot point the game revolves around, make as much sense to me as entering a Chinese restaurant and then bitterly complaining about the preponderance of Chinese food on the menu.
Thanks to all who commented and - a novelty for the board at times - keeping it civil.
Most of the issues seem to revolve around lack of backstory, which I can totally understand and one of the things that would make the game more immersive.
A few have commented on why do DB go for non-canon when there is so much canon to mine, to which - with apologies to the late Douglas Adams - I'll point out that Timelines represents the colliding of infinite possibilities and times meaning there are infinite variations of crew.
And with a finite number of canon characters, and the fact that any finite number divided by infinity is as close to zero as to make little difference, then it follows that the population of canon crew in Timelines is zero, and any you may encounter are merely the products of a deranged imagination :P
I have no problem with DB doing non-canon crew. In fact, it seems ludicrous to me that they wouldn't or shouldn't, given the nature of the game and its story premise that all possible timelines are colliding. As a game that (nominally) has a story, characters are needed to tell those stories and sometimes it will need to create new characters to tell those stories.
However, DB has largely failed in delivering the stories that are needed to ground many of the non-canon crew. For normal events, the writing is pretty sparse and usually focuses more on the plot than on any new characters introduced. Even mega-events in mega-events we will be lucky to have any character focus on the recurring character. Without sufficient character development it's difficult to develop any attachment to a previously-unknown version of a crew. And I think DB is aware that their storytelling is not up to the task of truly supporting a non-canon character - notice that they have never attempted to make a new character whole-cloth, but always use an existing character with a twist.
I think there is definitely potential for non-canon crew. Take for example, Augment Picard. He's one of the worst offenders in the no-development department currently since he just showed up in a pack one day with zero explanation. Why is he an Augment? Was he born that way in another timeline where Augments were the norm, or was he enhanced later in life? And what are his goals? What are his relationships with other Augments? Is he cultured like Khan or thuggish like Malik? All of these questions and more we will likely never get an answer to, but he could potentially be compelling if we did.
Weird crossing over of Timelines and Universes? Expect the unexpected.
In fact, be grateful it isn't much weirder than it is. The potential for all sorts of crazy is there, with enough imagination..
Well, we've already had crossovers with DC and Marvel in the books and comics, and there's going to be a Transformers crossover shortly apparently...
I'm just waiting for the My Little Pony crossover! Bronies vs Trekkies, think I'd maybe invest in a deck chair and some Mai Tais and sit back to enjoy the ensuing panjandrums.
I would spend all my money for Borg Pinkie Pie, IJS.
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Some here have suggested bringing in more characters from the novels, comics, etc. While that could get crazy, there are a few great options out there.
For example, Captain MacKenzie Calhoun of the USS Excalibur from the Star Trek: New Frontier novels would be a great addition. (For those who don't know, he's recommended by Picard (and chosen by Admiral Nechayev) to command a lone starship into a region of space that's in upheaval. His first officer is Elizabeth Shelby (who once coveted Riker's job on the Enterprise). His CMO is Dr. Selar (who is already in game). His Chief of Operations is Robin Lefler (also already in game). These novels were written by Peter David, who also brought us the novel Imzadi.
For example, Captain MacKenzie Calhoun of the USS Excalibur from the Star Trek: New Frontier novels would be a great addition. (For those who don't know, he's recommended by Picard (and chosen by Admiral Nechayev) to command a lone starship into a region of space that's in upheaval. His first officer is Elizabeth Shelby (who once coveted Riker's job on the Enterprise). His CMO is Dr. Selar (who is already in game). His Chief of Operations is Robin Lefler (also already in game). These novels were written by Peter David, who also brought us the novel Imzadi.
I'd like to see Calhoun, New Frontier was mostly good to great, although I found the last two paperbacks a bit rubbish, and I've not even bothered tracking down The Returned. Shame as I like a lot of David's novels, especially as he sometimes tackles darker subjects with a light hand.
And an adult Kebron would be a nice high SEC and MED character.
I'd like to see Calhoun, New Frontier was mostly good to great, although I found the last two paperbacks a bit rubbish, and I've not even bothered tracking down The Returned. Shame as I like a lot of David's novels, especially as he sometimes tackles darker subjects with a light hand.
And an adult Kebron would be a nice high SEC and MED character.
Yeah, the series lost steam in the later books, but at first it was a very fresh read in typical David-Style. He has a good "feel" for existing characters. And also knows how to bring his creations alive. And since he always adds traces of humour and often some passion his mix is very enjoyable to me.
Would love to see Soleta (of course also Calhoun) in this game....
Personally I don't care for non canon crew because I like collecting various versions and outfits of characters I like from various episodes and movies and things I like. I don't fuss about it though, to each their own.
While I prefer canon characters from the TV series, it is unrealistic to think that non-canon characters wouldn’t be used within the game. And honestly, there are some canon characters I could do without, like “Brainless Spock” for example... Not that a non-canon “Assimilated Spot” would have me chomping at the bit. In the end, canon and non-canon need to be done well with a modicum of thought and execution.
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I'll admit there's a lot I don't know about the deeper lore of TMNT (like, anything besides jumbled memories of the cartoon, and the first few levels of SNES Turtles in Time), but Raph's the Medic?
And how is Donatello not chief engineer, him being the machine guy is right there in the song. Mikey should be, I don't know, Neelix, but bearable. (So I guess Krang's an evil Trill?)
Any officially licensed material like the Broken Mirror comic are considered canon by CBS. The Mirror TNG crew are canon crew. The only one that is not from that Mega event is Mirror Janeway.
I agree with most sentiments here that a non-canon version of characters are acceptable if they have a decent backstory to explain their existence or if they are at least believable. Making them for no reason other than "just because we could" is off putting from accepting their in-game presence.
Any officially licensed material like the Broken Mirror comic are considered canon by CBS. The Mirror TNG crew are canon crew. The only one that is not from that Mega event is Mirror Janeway.
I agree with most sentiments here that a non-canon version of characters are acceptable if they have a decent backstory to explain their existence or if they are at least believable. Making them for no reason other than "just because we could" is off putting from accepting their in-game presence.
I'll admit there's a lot I don't know about the deeper lore of TMNT (like, anything besides jumbled memories of the cartoon, and the first few levels of SNES Turtles in Time), but Raph's the Medic?
And how is Donatello not chief engineer, him being the machine guy is right there in the song. Mikey should be, I don't know, Neelix, but bearable. (So I guess Krang's an evil Trill?)
I think they based these more off personality than anything else. Raph is easily the crankiest, which makes him more like Bones than any of the others. Similarly, while Donnie could go either way between science and engineering, he's more Spock-like than Scotty-like in personality. Leo gets to be Kirk by virtue of being the leader (though I would counter his personality is more Spock), and that leaves Mikey as Scotty by default.
And I adore that this is an actual line of conversation.
Another thing that makes canon a little confusing. Gene R. himself had a habit of decanonizing things. He didn't like the way the animated series turned out, so he proclaimed that it was not canon. He also didn't like a lot of the movies. So he didn't much consider them canon either. And – okay, I'm really going to scare you with this one – after he got TNG going, he... well... he sort of decided that some of The Original Series wasn't canon either. I had a discussion with him once, where I cited a couple things that were very clearly canon in The Original Series, and he told me he didn't think that way anymore, and that he now thought of TNG as canon wherever there was conflict between the two. He admitted it was revisionist thinking, but so be it.
A very practical example of this is the Klingon design... it’s well reported that after Movie_Klingons were a thing, Gene actively encouraged the revisionist point of view that all Klingons had always looked like that and that their ‘recreations’ in earlier editions were based purely on effects limitations at the time. (Ironically, it’s actually DS9 and then ENTs attempt at explanations that then cause problems).
For me, that works nicely.
You don’t like something, you can ignore it... it’s no longer part of your ‘head canon’... something is updated or conflicts with the past...fine, it’s just the limitations of the earlier edition. Keep what works and ignore stuff that doesn’t, or stuff that is changed...
Make Canon what you want it to be and for each individual that is personal to them.
Any officially licensed material like the Broken Mirror comic are considered canon by CBS. The Mirror TNG crew are canon crew. The only one that is not from that Mega event is Mirror Janeway.
I agree with most sentiments here that a non-canon version of characters are acceptable if they have a decent backstory to explain their existence or if they are at least believable. Making them for no reason other than "just because we could" is off putting from accepting their in-game presence.
Unfortunately, CBS actually has stated that anything appearing on screen such a as t.v., and movies are what is canon. Books, games, and co is a fall into non-canon.
Another thing that makes canon a little confusing. Gene R. himself had a habit of decanonizing things. He didn't like the way the animated series turned out, so he proclaimed that it was not canon. He also didn't like a lot of the movies. So he didn't much consider them canon either. And – okay, I'm really going to scare you with this one – after he got TNG going, he... well... he sort of decided that some of The Original Series wasn't canon either. I had a discussion with him once, where I cited a couple things that were very clearly canon in The Original Series, and he told me he didn't think that way anymore, and that he now thought of TNG as canon wherever there was conflict between the two. He admitted it was revisionist thinking, but so be it.
A very practical example of this is the Klingon design... it’s well reported that after Movie_Klingons were a thing, Gene actively encouraged the revisionist point of view that all Klingons had always looked like that and that their ‘recreations’ in earlier editions were based purely on effects limitations at the time. (Ironically, it’s actually DS9 and then ENTs attempt at explanations that then cause problems).
For me, that works nicely.
You don’t like something, you can ignore it... it’s no longer part of your ‘head canon’... something is updated or conflicts with the past...fine, it’s just the limitations of the earlier edition. Keep what works and ignore stuff that doesn’t, or stuff that is changed...
Make Canon what you want it to be and for each individual that is personal to them.
DS9 simply made a joke about it.
Enterprise is what made a mess with it.
Speaking of expanded universe stuff and Klingons, I remembered earlier this arc from DC Comics's second run, #54-58. Something screwy has happened with the past, Kirk's crew and Kor and a Romulan have to work together to straighten it all out, including not one but two assassination plots, and Worf's granddad Worf (i.e., Colonel Worf) gets thrown into the mix as an Enterprise crew member. Oh, and David Marcus is still alive. It's the kind of dizzying stuff comics do better than other mediums. Anyway, at various points, Kirk and co. go undercover as Klingons.
It reminds me of what this game aspires to be (at times, anyway), and might be worth checking out if you're into such things. I don't necessarily want anything from that arc to make its way into Timelines (and I'm not bothering to speculate on what licensing deals would be involved; so far as I can tell, IDW has the rights to all previous publishers' books, which is why they're able to publish reprint collections, but that may be meaningless). But it would make my adolescent self smile if Klingon Kirk or Lt. Worf showed up!
Another thing that makes canon a little confusing. Gene R. himself had a habit of decanonizing things. He didn't like the way the animated series turned out, so he proclaimed that it was not canon. He also didn't like a lot of the movies. So he didn't much consider them canon either. And – okay, I'm really going to scare you with this one – after he got TNG going, he... well... he sort of decided that some of The Original Series wasn't canon either. I had a discussion with him once, where I cited a couple things that were very clearly canon in The Original Series, and he told me he didn't think that way anymore, and that he now thought of TNG as canon wherever there was conflict between the two. He admitted it was revisionist thinking, but so be it.
A very practical example of this is the Klingon design... it’s well reported that after Movie_Klingons were a thing, Gene actively encouraged the revisionist point of view that all Klingons had always looked like that and that their ‘recreations’ in earlier editions were based purely on effects limitations at the time. (Ironically, it’s actually DS9 and then ENTs attempt at explanations that then cause problems).
For me, that works nicely.
You don’t like something, you can ignore it... it’s no longer part of your ‘head canon’... something is updated or conflicts with the past...fine, it’s just the limitations of the earlier edition. Keep what works and ignore stuff that doesn’t, or stuff that is changed...
Make Canon what you want it to be and for each individual that is personal to them.
DS9 simply made a joke about it.
Enterprise is what made a mess with it.
That 'joke' was the first time the difference in Klingon appearance had been referenced in-universe. DS9 made it explicitly canon that TOS-era Klingons looked different, with the Pandora's box of unanswered questions that implied. Enterprise just followed up on that.
That 'joke' was the first time the difference in Klingon appearance had been referenced in-universe. DS9 made it explicitly canon that TOS-era Klingons looked different, with the Pandora's box of unanswered questions that implied. Enterprise just followed up on that.
DS9 also had the Three Ks show up with forehead ridges, no questions asked. Sure one could argue they all had mid-life crises and got forehead implants between TOS and DS9 (or genetic resequencing or whatever very serious scientific term anyone'd perfer), but I really feel like up until Enterprise there was no problem in the world with taking 'Blood Oath' as the actual, serious precedent, that Klingons did 'always' look like that, and 'Tribble-ations' was just poking fun at us/itself. I mean really, "We do not discuss it with outsiders!" is the perfect explanation for the whole thing. I like a lot of what Enterprise did in S4, and even the forehead stuff was clever in some ways, but it also amounted to discussing it with outsiders.
(I haven't got the reference in front of me, but I think I remember reading somewhere that there was an idea floated at the time of 'Tribble-ations' that what they could do was, as soon as they travelled to the 23rd Century, Worf would suddenly just look like a TOS Klingon with no explanation, and nobody would even comment on it. Admittedly that probably would've been pushing the joke too far, but still, would've been a great sight gag. I'd actually want to get C23 Martok if he looked TOS.)
I was also thinking about characters who played a bit part in-canon, but were fleshed out in other formats like novels. For instance, the financier Ralph Offenhouse appear only in TNG’s first season finale, but his character is well developed in the book Debtors Planet, where he is now serving as a Federation ambassador. Disruptor Beam could easily extrapolate character attributes from such sources. The downside is that someone on their staff would have to spend time reading older material, much of which would not contribute to the game.
If there are disagreements about whether Sisko’s actions in “in the Pale Moonlight” really belong in the same utopian vision of the future that Gene Roddenberry created, why should anyone be surprised about how some might question the authenticity of a character that has never been seen in a Star Trek film or episode?
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Well, we've already had crossovers with DC and Marvel in the books and comics, and there's going to be a Transformers crossover shortly apparently...
I'm just waiting for the My Little Pony crossover! Bronies vs Trekkies, think I'd maybe invest in a deck chair and some Mai Tais and sit back to enjoy the ensuing panjandrums.
Not especially, whenever a non-canon crew is announced a portion of the board comes a-running to complain, so I figured I'd ask the question.
And many of the knee-jerk complaints, given the core plot point the game revolves around, make as much sense to me as entering a Chinese restaurant and then bitterly complaining about the preponderance of Chinese food on the menu.
Most of the issues seem to revolve around lack of backstory, which I can totally understand and one of the things that would make the game more immersive.
A few have commented on why do DB go for non-canon when there is so much canon to mine, to which - with apologies to the late Douglas Adams - I'll point out that Timelines represents the colliding of infinite possibilities and times meaning there are infinite variations of crew.
And with a finite number of canon characters, and the fact that any finite number divided by infinity is as close to zero as to make little difference, then it follows that the population of canon crew in Timelines is zero, and any you may encounter are merely the products of a deranged imagination :P
However, DB has largely failed in delivering the stories that are needed to ground many of the non-canon crew. For normal events, the writing is pretty sparse and usually focuses more on the plot than on any new characters introduced. Even mega-events in mega-events we will be lucky to have any character focus on the recurring character. Without sufficient character development it's difficult to develop any attachment to a previously-unknown version of a crew. And I think DB is aware that their storytelling is not up to the task of truly supporting a non-canon character - notice that they have never attempted to make a new character whole-cloth, but always use an existing character with a twist.
I think there is definitely potential for non-canon crew. Take for example, Augment Picard. He's one of the worst offenders in the no-development department currently since he just showed up in a pack one day with zero explanation. Why is he an Augment? Was he born that way in another timeline where Augments were the norm, or was he enhanced later in life? And what are his goals? What are his relationships with other Augments? Is he cultured like Khan or thuggish like Malik? All of these questions and more we will likely never get an answer to, but he could potentially be compelling if we did.
I would spend all my money for Borg Pinkie Pie, IJS.
PM for details.
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For example, Captain MacKenzie Calhoun of the USS Excalibur from the Star Trek: New Frontier novels would be a great addition. (For those who don't know, he's recommended by Picard (and chosen by Admiral Nechayev) to command a lone starship into a region of space that's in upheaval. His first officer is Elizabeth Shelby (who once coveted Riker's job on the Enterprise). His CMO is Dr. Selar (who is already in game). His Chief of Operations is Robin Lefler (also already in game). These novels were written by Peter David, who also brought us the novel Imzadi.
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I'd like to see Calhoun, New Frontier was mostly good to great, although I found the last two paperbacks a bit rubbish, and I've not even bothered tracking down The Returned. Shame as I like a lot of David's novels, especially as he sometimes tackles darker subjects with a light hand.
And an adult Kebron would be a nice high SEC and MED character.
Yeah, the series lost steam in the later books, but at first it was a very fresh read in typical David-Style. He has a good "feel" for existing characters. And also knows how to bring his creations alive. And since he always adds traces of humour and often some passion his mix is very enjoyable to me.
Would love to see Soleta (of course also Calhoun) in this game....
And how is Donatello not chief engineer, him being the machine guy is right there in the song. Mikey should be, I don't know, Neelix, but bearable. (So I guess Krang's an evil Trill?)
I agree with most sentiments here that a non-canon version of characters are acceptable if they have a decent backstory to explain their existence or if they are at least believable. Making them for no reason other than "just because we could" is off putting from accepting their in-game presence.
Well, about that...
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Licensed is not always canon -- that's why they are free to contradict each other so much like the fate of Thomas Riker.
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I think they based these more off personality than anything else. Raph is easily the crankiest, which makes him more like Bones than any of the others. Similarly, while Donnie could go either way between science and engineering, he's more Spock-like than Scotty-like in personality. Leo gets to be Kirk by virtue of being the leader (though I would counter his personality is more Spock), and that leaves Mikey as Scotty by default.
And I adore that this is an actual line of conversation.
A very practical example of this is the Klingon design... it’s well reported that after Movie_Klingons were a thing, Gene actively encouraged the revisionist point of view that all Klingons had always looked like that and that their ‘recreations’ in earlier editions were based purely on effects limitations at the time. (Ironically, it’s actually DS9 and then ENTs attempt at explanations that then cause problems).
For me, that works nicely.
You don’t like something, you can ignore it... it’s no longer part of your ‘head canon’... something is updated or conflicts with the past...fine, it’s just the limitations of the earlier edition. Keep what works and ignore stuff that doesn’t, or stuff that is changed...
Make Canon what you want it to be and for each individual that is personal to them.
Unfortunately, CBS actually has stated that anything appearing on screen such a as t.v., and movies are what is canon. Books, games, and co is a fall into non-canon.
DS9 simply made a joke about it.
Enterprise is what made a mess with it.
It reminds me of what this game aspires to be (at times, anyway), and might be worth checking out if you're into such things. I don't necessarily want anything from that arc to make its way into Timelines (and I'm not bothering to speculate on what licensing deals would be involved; so far as I can tell, IDW has the rights to all previous publishers' books, which is why they're able to publish reprint collections, but that may be meaningless). But it would make my adolescent self smile if Klingon Kirk or Lt. Worf showed up!
[Images spoiler'd for size.]
That 'joke' was the first time the difference in Klingon appearance had been referenced in-universe. DS9 made it explicitly canon that TOS-era Klingons looked different, with the Pandora's box of unanswered questions that implied. Enterprise just followed up on that.
DS9 also had the Three Ks show up with forehead ridges, no questions asked. Sure one could argue they all had mid-life crises and got forehead implants between TOS and DS9 (or genetic resequencing or whatever very serious scientific term anyone'd perfer), but I really feel like up until Enterprise there was no problem in the world with taking 'Blood Oath' as the actual, serious precedent, that Klingons did 'always' look like that, and 'Tribble-ations' was just poking fun at us/itself. I mean really, "We do not discuss it with outsiders!" is the perfect explanation for the whole thing. I like a lot of what Enterprise did in S4, and even the forehead stuff was clever in some ways, but it also amounted to discussing it with outsiders.
(I haven't got the reference in front of me, but I think I remember reading somewhere that there was an idea floated at the time of 'Tribble-ations' that what they could do was, as soon as they travelled to the 23rd Century, Worf would suddenly just look like a TOS Klingon with no explanation, and nobody would even comment on it. Admittedly that probably would've been pushing the joke too far, but still, would've been a great sight gag. I'd actually want to get C23 Martok if he looked TOS.)
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