This may be an unpopular opinion: I actually liked Nemesis. You can call it a Wrath of Khan clone but it does involve one important concept that Star Trek doesn’t really do anywhere else other than perhaps the Mirror Universe - how much of who you are is innate, and how much is a result of circumstance. I think it is a fascinating topic to discuss.
I also want to say that I hate Insurrection. A lot. It is a cringefest from beginning to end and makes V actually look good. Speaking of V, there are many good moments but the plot was patently ridiculous. I really appreciated how the Autobiography of James T. Kirk explains it away as a film made on 892-IV rather than actual events that happened.
I'm gonna keep out of the heat by staying home and enjoying some Star Trek!
2 awesome episodes! Enjoy
Hoping we get Captain Tracey in game eventually.
Really? They were pretty bad, The Savage Curtain was alright, but the blatant US propaganda episode was awful, up there with The Way to Eden, and Spock’s Brain for me.
All Star Trek is awesome. There is no bad Star Trek.
Seriously? Wow. Gotta admire the loyalty.
Look, I'll admit. We all have our favorites and unfavorites. But we're all here because we are Star Trek fans (maybe that's an assumption too far, but let's go with it for now). Was Enterprise my favorite series? No. But it's still Trek, and adds to all things Trek.
Like Captain Tatem said above, everyone has their opinions. Some where (Enterprise was Best, I'm calling you out) someone liked the 4 dragging seasons of Enterprise. It had it's moments for me, but I'm not about to call it bad Star Trek. I'm sure there are folks who have only seen and enjoyed the Kelvin Timeline movies. They are no less Star Trek fans than the rest of us who have watched every episode of every series. And the Kelvin Timeline is no less Trek than TOS. TOS had some pretty absurd plotlines. But most Trek does, we kind of like it because of that in many instances. I mean Trouble with Tribbles for Q's sake. Completely ridiculous concept, yet one of the most fan favorite episodes.
I stand by my statement. There is no bad Star Trek.
I think the first part of your statement was "All Trek is awesome". That's even more strong than there is no 'bad' trek. I read that as that's everything and every moment is so awesome must have more and watch every single one again.....Its bordering on fanboy at that point.
I accept the title of fanboy. Carry on.
Drunken Dahar Masters is recruiting active players.
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The thing about Star Trek V, is that it had this one scene that to this day resonates with me.
The bond between Kirk, Spock and McCoy was indeed well displayed in that movie. But that apart: The worst special effects of all Star Trek movies, shameful attempts at humour who turned everyone into a caricature of themselves (like Scotty banging his head moments after saying he knows this ship like the back of his hand etc. etc. etc.) and of course Shatner trying to put himself on the forefront of everyhing made it cringeworthy to me. Since it had a special moment for you, you rate it differently. But for me no other Star Trek movie smells as bad.
I'm torn on this for a number of reasons.
- Shatner didn't initially intend to write the movie; the writer he wanted however couldn't get the novel rights that he wanted from Paramount, so the script was kinda whipped up out of some level of desperation.
- The special effects (and, in places, sound effects) are bad because ILM was busy with other things at the time.
- The humor was very hit or miss... but I don't find it that different than most of the TNG films in that regard. Example.
I may lose my Hall pass for this..
But I actually even like insurrection and don't hate Nemesis..
Both suffered from done bad cuts..
Nemesis clearly more so.
They had like what.. 90 minutes of movie cut out of not more.. it doesn't help that the writer watched the franchise in the span of a couple weeks.. but seeing that aside and they it was intended to be part 1 of at least 2..
I try to give some slack and just enjoy watching old friends interacting.
Yeh it could have been better..
And yeah it could have been more original..
(We all knew what would happen as soon as they interconnected and transferred memory)
But.. it was still ok in my books.
I still feel the worst part of the whole thing was that they (paramount) was so stupid as to pit it against a Lord of the rings movie and promoted it as "the last adventure of a generation" when they (the cast) didn't know and hadn't even opened on one screen yet.
Lol, what the hell would they have done if somehow it had popped 250 Mil?
Lol narrator fit sequel "opps, didn't mean the hero's last adventure we meant the bat guys.. yay captain baldy ! In theaters now"
They promoted it with the message "we're done, so you should be too.. don't expect much"
My problem with Nemesis is that it's nothing really new. It's TWOK: TNG. And I just don't get Shinzon's motivation for wanting to destroy earth. Khan's motivation was clear. And really, all they would have had to do was make Shinzon try to destroy Romulus rather than Earth. He would have made a decent amount more sense then.
FWIW I'm find most of Insurrection to be decent. It just suffers from bad FX/Visuals (lol, shuttle with 90s PC Joystick). Heck I'd argue that it's as bad as ST5 in this regard, possibly worse because nobody learned their lesson about the drab drab colors of the land and dwellers of Nimbus 3 / ShaKaRee. I mean, there's colors, but it's BLAND. Nemesis actually does better in this area, somehow. Sure half the movie is either underexposed (Schimitar) or Overexposed (Whatever stupid planet they found B4 on) but it felt like there was enough variety and color.
In any case, Stewart was getting into the X-Men film series, so I doubt they could have gotten him to come back; at that point Trek was starting to enter it's waning phase, so the money wouldn't be there.
it doesn't help that the writer watched the franchise in the span of a couple weeks..
You are confusing something here. The writer, John Logan, was a big fan of Star Trek:
" "I loved the original series, and I loved Next Generation from the first episode," he told Kevin Dilmore at the Star Trek Communicator. "I have all of the first two series on tape. And now that I have access to Paramount libraries, I can watch whatever I want to watch. I lost track of Deep Space Nine, but there is so much I loved about what they were doing with the characters. Now I'm watching more of it. I just watched a seven-episode track of the Dominion War, for example. And Voyager is just wonderful. Seven of Nine and Janeway are my personal favourites."
Logan's vast knowledge of the Star Trek universe helped him in writing 'Star Trek X,' as he is planning to include a lot of references to the various series. "There will be lots of little things that fans will recognise. I want to put in a lot of cool stuff that no one in the main audience will understand, but fans will see and get it right away. One of the best parts about writing this is that I get to do things with the races, the characters and the homeworlds that I've always wanted to do."
The editor, John Baird, was a a Star Trek virgin though:
"In a revelation that will shock few who have seen the film, Stuart Baird (helmer of films such as Executive Decision and US Marshals, and long-time film editor) had no knowledge of Star Trek before becoming director of Nemesis. He even refused to watch any of the Next Generation TV series to prepare (and reportedly went so far to say he hated the franchise, and had to be forced to watch the preceding films, allegedly), so it's no wonder so many fans feel the characters act strangely.
It's reported that the director even kept calling LeVar Burton 'Laverne' and thought Commander LaForge was an alien. If you watch some of the extras on the DVD and the extra-extras on the Blu-ray it comes across that the majority of the cast were less than enamored with the director (Marina Sirtis even called him an idiot on a con some years back)."
Nemesis actually does better in this area, somehow. Sure half the movie is either underexposed (Schimitar) or Overexposed (Whatever stupid planet they found B4 on) but it felt like there was enough variety and color.
And no matter it other flaws it brings closure to some things: The marriage of Troi and Riker, Riker finally taking command of his own ship etc.
I'm gonna keep out of the heat by staying home and enjoying some Star Trek!
2 awesome episodes! Enjoy
Hoping we get Captain Tracey in game eventually.
Really? They were pretty bad, The Savage Curtain was alright, but the blatant US propaganda episode was awful, up there with The Way to Eden, and Spock’s Brain for me.
TOS fans, don't hate me, but I'm not familiar with the "blatant US propaganda" reference. Someone explain? Roddenberry didn't seem like the type to trumpet patriotism. Those were made during the heights of the Cold War and Vietnam protests, could that be the root?
I'm gonna keep out of the heat by staying home and enjoying some Star Trek!
2 awesome episodes! Enjoy
Hoping we get Captain Tracey in game eventually.
Really? They were pretty bad, The Savage Curtain was alright, but the blatant US propaganda episode was awful, up there with The Way to Eden, and Spock’s Brain for me.
All Star Trek is awesome. There is no bad Star Trek.
Seriously? Wow. Gotta admire the loyalty.
Think the main point here in discussing if an episode was “good” or “bad” is subject to each individual’s preference and bias. I liked The Omega Glory and Savage Curtain. I admit they aren’t my favorite 2 episodes and I’m a TOS homer, but just because I liked them doesn’t mean everyone else did, and vice versa for other episodes/series within the franchise. With a franchise this large there is a wide range - what person A calls bad person B might call ok and person C might call good. Matter of opinion.
To assume that everything produced in a franchise is awesome, is frankly hardcore loyalty or a very low bar, no matter how good the franchise is.
Yeah, just ask (us) Star Wars fans about it...Last Jedi anyone!
I'm gonna keep out of the heat by staying home and enjoying some Star Trek!
2 awesome episodes! Enjoy
Hoping we get Captain Tracey in game eventually.
Really? They were pretty bad, The Savage Curtain was alright, but the blatant US propaganda episode was awful, up there with The Way to Eden, and Spock’s Brain for me.
All Star Trek is awesome. There is no bad Star Trek.
Seriously? Wow. Gotta admire the loyalty.
Look, I'll admit. We all have our favorites and unfavorites. But we're all here because we are Star Trek fans (maybe that's an assumption too far, but let's go with it for now). Was Enterprise my favorite series? No. But it's still Trek, and adds to all things Trek.
Like Captain Tatem said above, everyone has their opinions. Some where (Enterprise was Best, I'm calling you out) someone liked the 4 dragging seasons of Enterprise. It had it's moments for me, but I'm not about to call it bad Star Trek. I'm sure there are folks who have only seen and enjoyed the Kelvin Timeline movies. They are no less Star Trek fans than the rest of us who have watched every episode of every series. And the Kelvin Timeline is no less Trek than TOS. TOS had some pretty absurd plotlines. But most Trek does, we kind of like it because of that in many instances. I mean Trouble with Tribbles for Q's sake. Completely ridiculous concept, yet one of the most fan favorite episodes.
I stand by my statement. There is no bad Star Trek.
Lol, raising hand, Enterprise is my fav series. And I like the Kelvin movies also.
This may be an unpopular opinion: I actually liked Nemesis. You can call it a Wrath of Khan clone but it does involve one important concept that Star Trek doesn’t really do anywhere else other than perhaps the Mirror Universe - how much of who you are is innate, and how much is a result of circumstance. I think it is a fascinating topic to discuss.
I also want to say that I hate Insurrection. A lot. It is a cringefest from beginning to end and makes V actually look good. Speaking of V, there are many good moments but the plot was patently ridiculous. I really appreciated how the Autobiography of James T. Kirk explains it away as a film made on 892-IV rather than actual events that happened.
I'm gonna keep out of the heat by staying home and enjoying some Star Trek!
2 awesome episodes! Enjoy
Hoping we get Captain Tracey in game eventually.
Really? They were pretty bad, The Savage Curtain was alright, but the blatant US propaganda episode was awful, up there with The Way to Eden, and Spock’s Brain for me.
All Star Trek is awesome. There is no bad Star Trek.
Seriously? Wow. Gotta admire the loyalty.
Think the main point here in discussing if an episode was “good” or “bad” is subject to each individual’s preference and bias. I liked The Omega Glory and Savage Curtain. I admit they aren’t my favorite 2 episodes and I’m a TOS homer, but just because I liked them doesn’t mean everyone else did, and vice versa for other episodes/series within the franchise. With a franchise this large there is a wide range - what person A calls bad person B might call ok and person C might call good. Matter of opinion.
To assume that everything produced in a franchise is awesome, is frankly hardcore loyalty or a very low bar, no matter how good the franchise is.
Yeah, just ask (us) Star Wars fans about it...Last Jedi anyone!
Still better than Phantom Menace. I was in a theatre where the film broke (back in the days of film) and most of the audience applauded and left, telling the staff to not bother fixing it.
I'm gonna keep out of the heat by staying home and enjoying some Star Trek!
2 awesome episodes! Enjoy
Hoping we get Captain Tracey in game eventually.
Really? They were pretty bad, The Savage Curtain was alright, but the blatant US propaganda episode was awful, up there with The Way to Eden, and Spock’s Brain for me.
All Star Trek is awesome. There is no bad Star Trek.
Seriously? Wow. Gotta admire the loyalty.
Think the main point here in discussing if an episode was “good” or “bad” is subject to each individual’s preference and bias. I liked The Omega Glory and Savage Curtain. I admit they aren’t my favorite 2 episodes and I’m a TOS homer, but just because I liked them doesn’t mean everyone else did, and vice versa for other episodes/series within the franchise. With a franchise this large there is a wide range - what person A calls bad person B might call ok and person C might call good. Matter of opinion.
To assume that everything produced in a franchise is awesome, is frankly hardcore loyalty or a very low bar, no matter how good the franchise is.
Yeah, just ask (us) Star Wars fans about it...Last Jedi anyone!
Still better than Phantom Menace. I was in a theatre where the film broke (back in the days of film) and most of the audience applauded and left, telling the staff to not bother fixing it.
Phantom Menace was a weird one for me. I enjoyed it in the theater (probably due to sheer excitement for a new film) but was disgusted by most of it during a second viewing. I’ve watched it all the way through exactly once since that first time on VHS and have no desire to do it ever again.
For perspective, I would definitely watch ST V again and could probably sit through Insurrection at least one more time.
Yeah, just ask (us) Star Wars fans about it...Last Jedi anyone![/quote]
Still better than Phantom Menace. I was in a theatre where the film broke (back in the days of film) and most of the audience applauded and left, telling the staff to not bother fixing it. [/quote]
Can't agree with that sentiment. For all Phantom Menace didn't have, and had (Jar Jar) it is still far better than Star Trek V, Nemesis, or Insurrection.
Yeah, just ask (us) Star Wars fans about it...Last Jedi anyone!
Still better than Phantom Menace. I was in a theatre where the film broke (back in the days of film) and most of the audience applauded and left, telling the staff to not bother fixing it. [/quote]
Can't agree with that sentiment. For all Phantom Menace didn't have, and had (Jar Jar) it is still far better than Star Trek V, Nemesis, or Insurrection.[/quote]
Anakin was only marginally not as bad as Jar Jar. Only Jar Jar makes him not worse than a drunk Wesley Crusher music video.
The only good thing about Phantom Menace is if you forget the plot, you can just listen to the "Saga Begins" by Weird Al and be reminded why never ever to watch it again unless there's a sledgehammer to kill the playback device.
Yeah, just ask (us) Star Wars fans about it...Last Jedi anyone!
Still better than Phantom Menace. I was in a theatre where the film broke (back in the days of film) and most of the audience applauded and left, telling the staff to not bother fixing it.
Can't agree with that sentiment. For all Phantom Menace didn't have, and had (Jar Jar) it is still far better than Star Trek V, Nemesis, or Insurrection.[/quote]
Anakin was only marginally not as bad as Jar Jar. Only Jar Jar makes him not worse than a drunk Wesley Crusher music video.
The only good thing about Phantom Menace is if you forget the plot, you can just listen to the "Saga Begins" by Weird Al and be reminded why never ever to watch it again unless there's a sledgehammer to kill the playback device.[/quote]
Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that. There are some enjoyable elements in Phantom Menace that make it watchable for me (Darth Maul; the lightsaber duals; etc.).
Good grief, y'all's quotes in the last several posts are messed the heck up.
Yeah I noticed that too. I was at work on my PC earlier 2day when I posted those. For some reason, it kept messing them up.
I used to write a lot of HTML by hand (way back when), so if I'm chopping up a post when quoting it (in order to make it more concise and relevant), I'm used to making sure I've got matching amounts of opening and closing tags. Once or twice it still slips by me when there are several nested replies within it, but I usually notice right away when reviewing my post, and then go back to fix it with a post edit. Thing is, it's a pretty easy thing to fix — usually it's just a matter of someone having left off an opening quote "tag" or a closing tag somewhere.
Could you please continue the petty bickering? I find it most intriguing. ~ Data, ST:TNG "Haven"
Comments
I also want to say that I hate Insurrection. A lot. It is a cringefest from beginning to end and makes V actually look good. Speaking of V, there are many good moments but the plot was patently ridiculous. I really appreciated how the Autobiography of James T. Kirk explains it away as a film made on 892-IV rather than actual events that happened.
I accept the title of fanboy. Carry on.
PM for details.
So long and thanks for all the fish.
I'm torn on this for a number of reasons.
- Shatner didn't initially intend to write the movie; the writer he wanted however couldn't get the novel rights that he wanted from Paramount, so the script was kinda whipped up out of some level of desperation.
- The special effects (and, in places, sound effects) are bad because ILM was busy with other things at the time.
- The humor was very hit or miss... but I don't find it that different than most of the TNG films in that regard. Example.
- Shatner's gonna Shatner.
My problem with Nemesis is that it's nothing really new. It's TWOK: TNG. And I just don't get Shinzon's motivation for wanting to destroy earth. Khan's motivation was clear. And really, all they would have had to do was make Shinzon try to destroy Romulus rather than Earth. He would have made a decent amount more sense then.
FWIW I'm find most of Insurrection to be decent. It just suffers from bad FX/Visuals (lol, shuttle with 90s PC Joystick). Heck I'd argue that it's as bad as ST5 in this regard, possibly worse because nobody learned their lesson about the drab drab colors of the land and dwellers of Nimbus 3 / ShaKaRee. I mean, there's colors, but it's BLAND. Nemesis actually does better in this area, somehow. Sure half the movie is either underexposed (Schimitar) or Overexposed (Whatever stupid planet they found B4 on) but it felt like there was enough variety and color.
In any case, Stewart was getting into the X-Men film series, so I doubt they could have gotten him to come back; at that point Trek was starting to enter it's waning phase, so the money wouldn't be there.
You are confusing something here. The writer, John Logan, was a big fan of Star Trek:
" "I loved the original series, and I loved Next Generation from the first episode," he told Kevin Dilmore at the Star Trek Communicator. "I have all of the first two series on tape. And now that I have access to Paramount libraries, I can watch whatever I want to watch. I lost track of Deep Space Nine, but there is so much I loved about what they were doing with the characters. Now I'm watching more of it. I just watched a seven-episode track of the Dominion War, for example. And Voyager is just wonderful. Seven of Nine and Janeway are my personal favourites."
Logan's vast knowledge of the Star Trek universe helped him in writing 'Star Trek X,' as he is planning to include a lot of references to the various series. "There will be lots of little things that fans will recognise. I want to put in a lot of cool stuff that no one in the main audience will understand, but fans will see and get it right away. One of the best parts about writing this is that I get to do things with the races, the characters and the homeworlds that I've always wanted to do."
The editor, John Baird, was a a Star Trek virgin though:
"In a revelation that will shock few who have seen the film, Stuart Baird (helmer of films such as Executive Decision and US Marshals, and long-time film editor) had no knowledge of Star Trek before becoming director of Nemesis. He even refused to watch any of the Next Generation TV series to prepare (and reportedly went so far to say he hated the franchise, and had to be forced to watch the preceding films, allegedly), so it's no wonder so many fans feel the characters act strangely.
It's reported that the director even kept calling LeVar Burton 'Laverne' and thought Commander LaForge was an alien. If you watch some of the extras on the DVD and the extra-extras on the Blu-ray it comes across that the majority of the cast were less than enamored with the director (Marina Sirtis even called him an idiot on a con some years back)."
And no matter it other flaws it brings closure to some things: The marriage of Troi and Riker, Riker finally taking command of his own ship etc.
TOS fans, don't hate me, but I'm not familiar with the "blatant US propaganda" reference. Someone explain? Roddenberry didn't seem like the type to trumpet patriotism. Those were made during the heights of the Cold War and Vietnam protests, could that be the root?
Yeah, just ask (us) Star Wars fans about it...Last Jedi anyone!
Lol, raising hand, Enterprise is my fav series. And I like the Kelvin movies also.
Agreed, Nemesis > Insurrection
We had two haboob warnings and dust storms in the last hour in Casa Grande, but no rain yet. Crossing my fingers...
Edit. Now outside watching lightening in the distance.
Still better than Phantom Menace. I was in a theatre where the film broke (back in the days of film) and most of the audience applauded and left, telling the staff to not bother fixing it.
Phantom Menace was a weird one for me. I enjoyed it in the theater (probably due to sheer excitement for a new film) but was disgusted by most of it during a second viewing. I’ve watched it all the way through exactly once since that first time on VHS and have no desire to do it ever again.
For perspective, I would definitely watch ST V again and could probably sit through Insurrection at least one more time.
Yeah, just ask (us) Star Wars fans about it...Last Jedi anyone![/quote]
Still better than Phantom Menace. I was in a theatre where the film broke (back in the days of film) and most of the audience applauded and left, telling the staff to not bother fixing it. [/quote]
Can't agree with that sentiment. For all Phantom Menace didn't have, and had (Jar Jar) it is still far better than Star Trek V, Nemesis, or Insurrection.
Still better than Phantom Menace. I was in a theatre where the film broke (back in the days of film) and most of the audience applauded and left, telling the staff to not bother fixing it. [/quote]
Can't agree with that sentiment. For all Phantom Menace didn't have, and had (Jar Jar) it is still far better than Star Trek V, Nemesis, or Insurrection.[/quote]
Anakin was only marginally not as bad as Jar Jar. Only Jar Jar makes him not worse than a drunk Wesley Crusher music video.
The only good thing about Phantom Menace is if you forget the plot, you can just listen to the "Saga Begins" by Weird Al and be reminded why never ever to watch it again unless there's a sledgehammer to kill the playback device.
Can't agree with that sentiment. For all Phantom Menace didn't have, and had (Jar Jar) it is still far better than Star Trek V, Nemesis, or Insurrection.[/quote]
Anakin was only marginally not as bad as Jar Jar. Only Jar Jar makes him not worse than a drunk Wesley Crusher music video.
The only good thing about Phantom Menace is if you forget the plot, you can just listen to the "Saga Begins" by Weird Al and be reminded why never ever to watch it again unless there's a sledgehammer to kill the playback device.[/quote]
Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that. There are some enjoyable elements in Phantom Menace that make it watchable for me (Darth Maul; the lightsaber duals; etc.).
Could you please continue the petty bickering? I find it most intriguing.
~ Data, ST:TNG "Haven"
Yeah I noticed that too. I was at work on my PC earlier 2day when I posted those. For some reason, it kept messing them up.
I used to write a lot of HTML by hand (way back when), so if I'm chopping up a post when quoting it (in order to make it more concise and relevant), I'm used to making sure I've got matching amounts of opening and closing tags. Once or twice it still slips by me when there are several nested replies within it, but I usually notice right away when reviewing my post, and then go back to fix it with a post edit. Thing is, it's a pretty easy thing to fix — usually it's just a matter of someone having left off an opening quote "tag" or a closing tag somewhere.
Could you please continue the petty bickering? I find it most intriguing.
~ Data, ST:TNG "Haven"