I still don't understand why suggesting what essentially amount to health and safety measures applicable to all is essentially 'limiting anyone's choices' or 'telling people what to do'.
Though, from experience, people do argue in this manner. I remember my brother-in-law complaining about seat-belts in cars when they were first introduced, a friend complaining about using a phone whilst driving, and colleagues complaining about sunscreen and hats even as others on the company were wandering off to the cancer clinic to get melanomas removed.
If it is a rule made by a business or a change in the way a product is delivered, people who disagree are free to leave to find another product or service to use. If it is a law made by the government...that is a problem, because there is no law so petty that someone won’t be killed over it. See also: Freddy Gray, Philando Castile, David Koresh.
It would hardly impact anyone's 'freedoms' though. At least, no more than having strictly 3 hour shuttles impacts your 'freedom' to run 2 minute shuttles, of that you are 'forced' to spend 40 chronitons for a warp 10 on the mission Highwaymen, or any more does running 5 Cadet Missions a day to gain 200 honor impact your 'freedom' to play the way you want. It's merely a change of rules, one that would have the happy impact of leveling the playing field and allowing people to get a good night's sleep.
You still have the 'freedom' to get up every hour and a half through the night, if you want to. No-one can stop you from doing that. Certainly not I. I value your freedoms enough to not even consider forcing you to sleep for a minimum of 6 hours every night. Even if it is good for your health.
I still don't understand why suggesting what essentially amount to health and safety measures applicable to all is essentially 'limiting anyone's choices' or 'telling people what to do'.
Though, from experience, people do argue in this manner. I remember my brother-in-law complaining about seat-belts in cars when they were first introduced, a friend complaining about using a phone whilst driving, and colleagues complaining about sunscreen and hats even as others on the company were wandering off to the cancer clinic to get melanomas removed.
In the spirit of understanding, I believe this meme is the best way to try and explain the answer to your question.
In short, forcing people to be healthy is denying them the right as a free, sentient to make a harmful choice. This is not the same thing as advocating FOR the unhealthy choice, but advocating for the right to choose.
But it works both ways, and to demonstrate I will use your example of sunscreen. It is established that in 2018 exposure to the sun's radiation is harmful to humans, it is known that sunscreen exists to prevent this problem, but it should not be a requirement to wear sunscreen. That being said, if somebody chooses not to wear sunscreen and gets skin cancer, the rest of us should not be expected to cover the cost of treatment. This person was free to choose, they chose to not protect themselves from a known danger, therefore they have assumed the responsibility.
It gets more complicated when these individual freedoms start to impact other people. The best example of those provided in your post is being on cell phones while driving. The personal rights and freedoms of the other people placed in danger as a result of one person's choice to use a phone while driving must outweigh one individual's right to choice in this case. In other words, if I use my phone while driving that is placing other people in danger because I may strike them with my car, and should not be permitted.
But if that person has 10 children whose lives would be adversely affected by their parent's death...
Ah freedom. Sadly, it invariably comes with responsibility towards others.
You have correctly pointed out the slippery slope nature of all of this. Both extremes are equally absurd; 100% complete and total freedom is absurd because then people would be free to kill each other and that is clearly not desirable, but 100% complete and total institutional control is equally absurd because a case can be made that absolutely every activity humans engage in can be viewed as harmful if enough modifiers are added (for example, if they have 10 kids).
Here is how I sort it out: a person distracted by their cell phone while driving is directly threatening people, and this should not be permitted. Same goes for drunk driving. There is absolutely no way either of these can occur and not be eminently dangerous to other people. I would also include a myriad of other things in this category like requiring architects to know what they are doing because other people will enter the buildings they design, airline pilots should be required to know how to fly a plane, etc. If a direct line can be drawn (and by this I mean a direct "If A, then B") then I believe most reasonable people would be in favor of some form of formal restriction.
However, if something is harmful to the individual and not necessarily harmful to others, we cannot allow ourselves as free people to voluntarily surrender our rights to choice in the name of potentially preventing a possible injury. There is inherent risk in being alive, safety is a myth, and there is no way to safeguard the world against unfairness.
Ok, so it's time for me to "come clean" about my true feelings here and it may or may not shock some following/ participating in this thread but, here goes:
I actually agree with the OP on everything except that the company is responsible for my choices. I agree that the reward boosts need to be reworked. I also agree that there are those that will sacrifice their well-being in order to do things that others might consider ludicrous and I personally don't think that it is wise to do so. However, this has been going on for as long as I've been playing this game (18+ months) and these unhealthy behaviors are evident in other, similar games and it is an unfortunate reality that many companies (not just DB) profit and will continue to profit from this. I'll admit though, I do wonder why, if this is such a concern, it hasn't been brought up before. Why not last week? Last month? Before last month? Maybe it's because we have had a few faction events in a row and that burnout has caused some to have an opinion or there could be another reason, I don't know. I also feel that debate should be used to help others formulate the best opinion possible and welcome it in any healthy form as should be evident from the last line in my previous post.
Finally, I am not an evil person (just felt like I should clarify that). In fact, if anyone here knew me in real life, they might think I am too kind and considerate of others. I think it is good to help one another, to be there for each other through support or any other means possible and to show concern. I also think we are stronger united than divided and should look out for each other but without dictating every personal choice someone else makes because, in my opinion, that is a slippery slope that can lead to more trouble than many of us would care to deal with.
I apologize for implying that you are evil. I do not think that. I was offended by being told those of us calling for change were doing it with ulterior motives, and wanted to clarify that is not the case.
To answer your question about why it hasn't been brought up before: it has. I wrote an admittedly melodromatic post when boosts were released because I had noted people were setting alarms, hoped the soon to be released boosts were a fix, and was baffled at what DB gave us:
I'll note that Roonis's earlier point brings a different perspective to the 3x=3x boosts, one that I hadn't considered. I'm not sure I totally agree with it (5 week old child makes thinking hard), but it wouldn't be great if adding those boosts meant more people setting alarms every 90 minutes through sleep even if fewer overall disrupted their sleep. I would still like to see DB try, but maybe as an in game mail with 4 3x=3x boosts for a few faction only events to see how behaviors change.
And lastly, I disagree that asking a game company to adjust their rules that reward unhealthy sleep behaviors is comparable to dictating every personal choice someone else makes. DB is already limiting our choices to play within the confines of their rules or not play at all.
But I think one freedom we can agree on is the freedom to disagree and discuss civilly. LLAP.
@pbert Thank you for the link to your thread in the old forums. Your thread was created about 1 year before I started playing the game so that is most likely the reason I had no idea it existed. Too bad the discussion only lasted about a day...maybe we're more opinionated or passionate now but, I for one, have enjoyed this discussion and reading other community member's comments. It has been, for me, an interesting avenue to learn something about some of my fellow community members and to stimulate my own way of thinking about some points that have been brought up. I also believe that healthy discussion is one of the benefits of having a community such as this and helps to build relationships over time.
I would also like to apologize to you (or anyone else) that may have been offended by anything I posted as it wasn't my intention to do so. I would also be remiss if I didn't mention that, although I quoted your post, I never meant to imply you personally thought I was evil.
On a side note...congratulations on the new baby! Health and happiness to you and your family.
That old thread was fascinating. Apart from a few minor gameplay details it could have been written yesterday.
It's kind of disheartening to see that this has been an issue for so long and still people are losing sleep over this game. Not being forced to, but feeling the need to nonetheless.
Another option would be to run ad warps, double your rewards. But only on 9 hour boosted missions. There are two main problems with the 9 hour boosters: one is that you lose a set of shuttles, the other is that the boost does not provide as much as a skill boost.
Upping the rewards to 3x instead of 2x and giving a vast increase in skill or having a separate slot for skill boosting would alleviate this. Sure it doesn't stop maniacs from getting up every 1.5 hours for 4 nights straight, but it would discourage that behaviour somewhat.
The knee-jerk responses to a few sensible suggestions for rule changes kind of point to a mentality of player that thinks winning is more important than health, and seems to indicate that they aren't aware that gameplay can be challenging and fun without it ruining your health.
I think that DB's response to this should not be about pandering to the few but considering the overall health of the player base.
This is all talking about a game, right?
Game, meaning: playtime, fun, enjoyment?
There are some real messed up priorities here...over a game...just a friendly neighborhood observation.
Another option would be to run ad warps, double your rewards. But only on 9 hour boosted missions. There are two main problems with the 9 hour boosters: one is that you lose a set of shuttles, the other is that the boost does not provide as much as a skill boost.
Upping the rewards to 3x instead of 2x and giving a vast increase in skill or having a separate slot for skill boosting would alleviate this. Sure it doesn't stop maniacs from getting up every 1.5 hours for 4 nights straight, but it would discourage that behaviour somewhat.
The knee-jerk responses to a few sensible suggestions for rule changes kind of point to a mentality of player that thinks winning is more important than health, and seems to indicate that they aren't aware that gameplay can be challenging and fun without it ruining your health.
I think that DB's response to this should not be about pandering to the few but considering the overall health of the player base.
That was quite the detective work to discover I am a maniac. And here I thought I hid it so well
Another option would be to run ad warps, double your rewards. But only on 9 hour boosted missions. There are two main problems with the 9 hour boosters: one is that you lose a set of shuttles, the other is that the boost does not provide as much as a skill boost.
Upping the rewards to 3x instead of 2x and giving a vast increase in skill or having a separate slot for skill boosting would alleviate this. Sure it doesn't stop maniacs from getting up every 1.5 hours for 4 nights straight, but it would discourage that behaviour somewhat.
The knee-jerk responses to a few sensible suggestions for rule changes kind of point to a mentality of player that thinks winning is more important than health, and seems to indicate that they aren't aware that gameplay can be challenging and fun without it ruining your health.
I think that DB's response to this should not be about pandering to the few but considering the overall health of the player base.
That was quite the detective work to discover I am a maniac. And here I thought I hid it so well
If you had started out as Banjo instead of “Enterprise was Best” you might have fooled us... 😝
Another option would be to run ad warps, double your rewards. But only on 9 hour boosted missions. There are two main problems with the 9 hour boosters: one is that you lose a set of shuttles, the other is that the boost does not provide as much as a skill boost.
Upping the rewards to 3x instead of 2x and giving a vast increase in skill or having a separate slot for skill boosting would alleviate this. Sure it doesn't stop maniacs from getting up every 1.5 hours for 4 nights straight, but it would discourage that behaviour somewhat.
The knee-jerk responses to a few sensible suggestions for rule changes kind of point to a mentality of player that thinks winning is more important than health, and seems to indicate that they aren't aware that gameplay can be challenging and fun without it ruining your health.
I think that DB's response to this should not be about pandering to the few but considering the overall health of the player base.
That was quite the detective work to discover I am a maniac. And here I thought I hid it so well
It's all good. I'm sure there are many who think I'm a maniac too. It's just diversity
Comments
It would hardly impact anyone's 'freedoms' though. At least, no more than having strictly 3 hour shuttles impacts your 'freedom' to run 2 minute shuttles, of that you are 'forced' to spend 40 chronitons for a warp 10 on the mission Highwaymen, or any more does running 5 Cadet Missions a day to gain 200 honor impact your 'freedom' to play the way you want. It's merely a change of rules, one that would have the happy impact of leveling the playing field and allowing people to get a good night's sleep.
You still have the 'freedom' to get up every hour and a half through the night, if you want to. No-one can stop you from doing that. Certainly not I. I value your freedoms enough to not even consider forcing you to sleep for a minimum of 6 hours every night. Even if it is good for your health.
Check out our website to find out more:
https://wiki.tenforwardloungers.com/
You have correctly pointed out the slippery slope nature of all of this. Both extremes are equally absurd; 100% complete and total freedom is absurd because then people would be free to kill each other and that is clearly not desirable, but 100% complete and total institutional control is equally absurd because a case can be made that absolutely every activity humans engage in can be viewed as harmful if enough modifiers are added (for example, if they have 10 kids).
Here is how I sort it out: a person distracted by their cell phone while driving is directly threatening people, and this should not be permitted. Same goes for drunk driving. There is absolutely no way either of these can occur and not be eminently dangerous to other people. I would also include a myriad of other things in this category like requiring architects to know what they are doing because other people will enter the buildings they design, airline pilots should be required to know how to fly a plane, etc. If a direct line can be drawn (and by this I mean a direct "If A, then B") then I believe most reasonable people would be in favor of some form of formal restriction.
However, if something is harmful to the individual and not necessarily harmful to others, we cannot allow ourselves as free people to voluntarily surrender our rights to choice in the name of potentially preventing a possible injury. There is inherent risk in being alive, safety is a myth, and there is no way to safeguard the world against unfairness.
I apologize for implying that you are evil. I do not think that. I was offended by being told those of us calling for change were doing it with ulterior motives, and wanted to clarify that is not the case.
To answer your question about why it hasn't been brought up before: it has. I wrote an admittedly melodromatic post when boosts were released because I had noted people were setting alarms, hoped the soon to be released boosts were a fix, and was baffled at what DB gave us:
https://forums.disruptorbeam.com/stt/viewthread/51893/
I'll note that Roonis's earlier point brings a different perspective to the 3x=3x boosts, one that I hadn't considered. I'm not sure I totally agree with it (5 week old child makes thinking hard), but it wouldn't be great if adding those boosts meant more people setting alarms every 90 minutes through sleep even if fewer overall disrupted their sleep. I would still like to see DB try, but maybe as an in game mail with 4 3x=3x boosts for a few faction only events to see how behaviors change.
And lastly, I disagree that asking a game company to adjust their rules that reward unhealthy sleep behaviors is comparable to dictating every personal choice someone else makes. DB is already limiting our choices to play within the confines of their rules or not play at all.
But I think one freedom we can agree on is the freedom to disagree and discuss civilly. LLAP.
I would also like to apologize to you (or anyone else) that may have been offended by anything I posted as it wasn't my intention to do so. I would also be remiss if I didn't mention that, although I quoted your post, I never meant to imply you personally thought I was evil.
On a side note...congratulations on the new baby! Health and happiness to you and your family.
It's kind of disheartening to see that this has been an issue for so long and still people are losing sleep over this game. Not being forced to, but feeling the need to nonetheless.
Check out our website to find out more:
https://wiki.tenforwardloungers.com/
Upping the rewards to 3x instead of 2x and giving a vast increase in skill or having a separate slot for skill boosting would alleviate this. Sure it doesn't stop maniacs from getting up every 1.5 hours for 4 nights straight, but it would discourage that behaviour somewhat.
The knee-jerk responses to a few sensible suggestions for rule changes kind of point to a mentality of player that thinks winning is more important than health, and seems to indicate that they aren't aware that gameplay can be challenging and fun without it ruining your health.
I think that DB's response to this should not be about pandering to the few but considering the overall health of the player base.
Check out our website to find out more:
https://wiki.tenforwardloungers.com/
Game, meaning: playtime, fun, enjoyment?
There are some real messed up priorities here...over a game...just a friendly neighborhood observation.
That was quite the detective work to discover I am a maniac. And here I thought I hid it so well
If you had started out as Banjo instead of “Enterprise was Best” you might have fooled us... 😝
It's all good. I'm sure there are many who think I'm a maniac too. It's just diversity
Check out our website to find out more:
https://wiki.tenforwardloungers.com/