This by removing the upper limit for Intel cost per skirmish.
I can't be bothered explaining why.
It would certainly make it more expensive to macro (as well as making the event less rewarding, as a whole) but it does nothing to actively prevent people from macroing.
Expensive to macro? Please explain this concept.
It would make the event much more rewarding, converting it from a boring grind to a skilfull maxing of each skirmish. Furthermore there would be a finite limit to the event like Galaxy events. Out of crons, event over. Job done.
You can macro lots of things. Collecting daily rewards could be macroed. The point is not to stop macroing the point is to make it redundant.
This by removing the upper limit for Intel cost per skirmish.
I can't be bothered explaining why.
It would certainly make it more expensive to macro (as well as making the event less rewarding, as a whole) but it does nothing to actively prevent people from macroing.
Expensive to macro? Please explain this concept.
It would make the event much more rewarding, converting it from a boring grind to a skilfull maxing of each skirmish. Furthermore there would be a finite limit to the event like Galaxy events. Out of crons, event over. Job done.
You can macro lots of things. Collecting daily rewards could be macroed. The point is not to stop macroing the point is to make it redundant.
skilfull maxing of each skirmish
????
Raising the intel cost would still leave the same brain dead skirmish mechanics. The problem is when the event requires no thought and yields the same VP for everyone, it becomes nothing but a grind to repeat the same actions over and over again. Increasing intel won't change that. I'm all for changing the event to be a skillfull maxing of each skirmish. I've outlined my ideas multiple times in the past. But just increasing intel costs won't accomplish that.
This by removing the upper limit for Intel cost per skirmish.
I can't be bothered explaining why.
It would certainly make it more expensive to macro (as well as making the event less rewarding, as a whole) but it does nothing to actively prevent people from macroing.
Expensive to macro? Please explain this concept.
It would make the event much more rewarding, converting it from a boring grind to a skilfull maxing of each skirmish. Furthermore there would be a finite limit to the event like Galaxy events. Out of crons, event over. Job done.
You can macro lots of things. Collecting daily rewards could be macroed. The point is not to stop macroing the point is to make it redundant.
I can't be bothered explaining why [/s]
It would be more expensive because it would cost more chronotons due to escalating costs. If memory serves me right, someone estimated the chron cost around 30-40k for perpetually running skirmish battles. If the costs per battle were to even modestly increase, the feedback loop of Chron -> Intel -> Chron gets significantly worse. This also means, as a whole, fewer rewards for everyone (due to increased intel costs).
Yes, you are correct that it would reduce some on the incentive to macro. Right now, it is time-prohibitive to actually exhaust your own chron stash. It just does it at the cost of lowering rewards. I have no problem with that aspect, personally, but there is a faction of the forums that would break out the pitchforks over it.
This by removing the upper limit for Intel cost per skirmish.
I can't be bothered explaining why.
It would certainly make it more expensive to macro (as well as making the event less rewarding, as a whole) but it does nothing to actively prevent people from macroing.
Expensive to macro? Please explain this concept.
It would make the event much more rewarding, converting it from a boring grind to a skilfull maxing of each skirmish. Furthermore there would be a finite limit to the event like Galaxy events. Out of crons, event over. Job done.
You can macro lots of things. Collecting daily rewards could be macroed. The point is not to stop macroing the point is to make it redundant.
skilfull maxing of each skirmish
????
Raising the intel cost would still leave the same brain dead skirmish mechanics. The problem is when the event requires no thought and yields the same VP for everyone, it becomes nothing but a grind to repeat the same actions over and over again. Increasing intel won't change that. I'm all for changing the event to be a skillfull maxing of each skirmish. I've outlined my ideas multiple times in the past. But just increasing intel costs won't accomplish that.
Yes but a doable one. The same can be said for faction events. You choose your missions and crew the rest being repetitive recycling of shuttles.
Increasing Intel makes it more like faction and galaxy events and would solve the problem of macros.
The issue is redundant however. DB doesnt care. If they did they would try it. Introduce it as a variant. See what happened. The reason I couldn't be bothered explaining initially is because DB does not care about us.
Thank you all for bringing this to the forefront again ahead of the upcoming Skirmish. I hope there is an update that will better deter macros use in the next event.
Very well written, thank you for taking the time. I tried to start a similar thread right after the last Skirmish, and the entire thread got quashed, simply because I used the actual player name, calling it out as a macro user. BE CAREFUL of this, you might want to rename all what you have put forth as the user name, before Shan catches it in the morning and kills the thread.
In any case, this IS an important topic, and anyone uses a macro, (let's call it what it is – cheating!) should be blocked from the game, as the game rules are very explicit in this subject from the time you start playing. Yes, DB should be taking higher measures to "fix" this problem, so I am definitely on board with your suggestions!
Oooooweee careful you might be called a Troll.
I like it. Call it what it is.
DB already has a way of making skirmishes more complex for players. It was shot down in flames and DB was forced to back down on implementing it properly. In fact, it also wouldn't have stopped macroing. It may have even made the use of a macro more competitive, but it would have slowed VP acquisition and prevented the absurd scores we see which are way out of whack with other events, and stopped the maxing of those lovely rewards that persuade players to play for hours more than they normally would.
This by removing the upper limit for Intel cost per skirmish.
I can't be bothered explaining why.
It would certainly make it more expensive to macro (as well as making the event less rewarding, as a whole) but it does nothing to actively prevent people from macroing.
Expensive to macro? Please explain this concept.
It would make the event much more rewarding, converting it from a boring grind to a skilfull maxing of each skirmish. Furthermore there would be a finite limit to the event like Galaxy events. Out of crons, event over. Job done.
You can macro lots of things. Collecting daily rewards could be macroed. The point is not to stop macroing the point is to make it redundant.
skilfull maxing of each skirmish
????
Raising the intel cost would still leave the same brain dead skirmish mechanics. The problem is when the event requires no thought and yields the same VP for everyone, it becomes nothing but a grind to repeat the same actions over and over again. Increasing intel won't change that. I'm all for changing the event to be a skillfull maxing of each skirmish. I've outlined my ideas multiple times in the past. But just increasing intel costs won't accomplish that.
Yes but a doable one. The same can be said for faction events. You choose your missions and crew the rest being repetitive recycling of shuttles.
Increasing Intel makes it more like faction and galaxy events and would solve the problem of macros.
The issue is redundant however. DB doesnt care. If they did they would try it. Introduce it as a variant. See what happened. The reason I couldn't be bothered explaining initially is because DB does not care about us.
People have claimed to macro galaxy events too. The difference in a faction event is that you can only run shuttles every 3 hours(maybe a little more frequently with speedboosts). So there is limited benefit to automate what a human can still do. For skirmish and galaxy events you can keep running as long as you have resources. Skirmish events are the cheapest to run, so you see the largest macro issue, but it's true for galaxy too.
I've already hit the point where my limiting factor in galaxy events is time not chronitons. Increasing costs for both just makes the events more expensive for players while still being just as boring. DB needs to redesign the events to emphasize strategy instead of grinding.
I am unsure why the 'macro killer' isn't working, it certainly popped up a lot when it was first introduced and so I don't see why it's vanished.
First of all, their "macro killer" isn't even close to a macro killer .. it's just an extra step for a macro to process .. in short - it's a joke.
It's there to placate everyone "See, we did .. *something* ... we're helping!" .. in the meantime, they're not doing anything.
That said, combating things like macros is NOT trivial ... almost anything you do to combat it can - in turn - be handled by a more sophisticated macro. (I speak as an experienced software developer / DBA)
Also, even tracking the progress of top players isn't a great indication of macro use. It is possible for a macro to be programmed with .. "pauses" so your graph starts to look more "human" ... again, keep in mind that anything you think of track them, is not always a guarantee.
Personally, I think the best option for "slowing down" macro use .. (note, I didn't say stop it .. I'm not sure you can stop it) .. is something like this: (which at first, of course, is going to annoy .. like .. EVERYONE .. ) LOL
Every time a new screen is loaded ... place the buttons and such in different places ... this would require people to slow down, and READ .. and look at what they're doing.
Macros, would have a VERY difficult time trying to keep up to this.
I'm not suggesting random placement .. but have several different layouts that you randomize from ... a couple even where the buttons are in reverse or such.
Keep in mind that a simple macro could be setup to just tap different sections of screen .. "hoping" to push the right button .. but if you have a couple screens where that results in "cancel" or something opposite to the effect, that helps interfere with the macro more than anything else will.
In addition to this, others have mentioned, make events less grindy and repetitive ... add more dynamic elements into it ... each time you do, macros become exponentially more difficult to implement.
*shrug* .. it's not easy .. it's almost like the issue with virus's and spammers ... you come up with a solution for them, so they get more sophisticated to bypass that "solution" ..
My opinion is likely in the minority, but here it is FWIW (yay freedom of internet speech).
I selectively give full participation to events. I have on occasion made it into the top 50 when putting enough effort in, as I did in the recent galaxy event. I am a relatively modest spender in game, so my galaxy run was the result of over three weeks of being strategic in my voyage times and almost no spending of chronitons. I was really hoping that this would have been enough to get me my Top 25 achievement, and I was very surprised to see how my efforts compared to other players ahead of me.
With my heaping garbage pile of chronitons, I really did think about jumping the line and macro-ing through that event, especially since I had a flight from east coast US to west coast Canada scheduled about 75% of the way through the event. For the record, I didn't macro, but still I was tempted, because it's my understanding from these forums that I is a TOS violation. So pat yourselves on the back, guys, you stopped one person here from macro-ing. But if they decided to "legalize" macro-ing tomorrow (which I don't expect to happen but wouldn't be surprised given my second point below), I might consider it. The biggest deterrent to me is having a device dedicated to this practice for a prolonged period of time.
Nevertheless, I don't have a significant problem with it in spirit. I don't fault anyone for doing it as if you are willing to risk consequences with TOS violations, then so be it, I see it as being a smart and functional way of managing time. You still have to do something to attain chronitons for the galaxy and skirmish events. You can bank over time like I do, or you can spend real cash to buy them when possible; or in the case of galaxy events you can farm material over time, but same difference in my opinion. Now, if someone were skirting that aspect of the game and somehow illicitly collecting materials (i.e., chronitons), then I'd be calling for much more action, because that would be fraud plain and simple. I don't know if anyone has been identified as doing that, but at that level I would think this is a much larger issue than using an unfair advantage in a game, such as using a stolen credit card, paypal info, etc.
I'm not saying you all should not advocate to have this addressed, I just don't think it's that big of an issue. I'd be surprised if I was the only one who felt this way. I was really hoping for top 25 in the last galaxy, but I don't blame macro use for my finish at 32 on macro use. People just outsaved and/or outspent me. Maybe macros accounted for those seven positions, but I still look at as they were willing to spend either time or money or exert the discipline to play judiciously to have the resources to achieve it. And here lies the second reason I find myself not jumping on this bandwagon.
Assuming these people are not fraudulently achieving their materials, there's a reasonable likelihood they are spending money, and decent money at that. Would they spend that money if they couldn't macro? Given the recent developments in Disrupter Beam (and Tilting Point), I wonder how much of a priority this is. On one hand, they have people paying them money in the process of over-stretching the rules, and on the other hand, they have people paying them money to play in good faith. I don't see where they are being hurt (yet) by this. So why would why choose this sword to fall on?
Finally, in my opinion I feel there is a bit of hypocrisy in this outrage. During faction events, I use the one minute missions to bypass as many tiers up to the 4k missions as quickly as possible. As far as I'm aware, this hasn't been declared a violation, but it's still an exploit within the game. My guess is that all of the top players in faction events use this exploit (if you don't and just drop mad dilithium on shuttle time boosts, I sincerely apologize for the false accusation). If anything, this exploit effects far more players, as several newer players who aren't on the forum (or recently joined here) or not in a talkative fleet will likely not know about this. Even knowing this, it's hard to break into the top 1k for some people. So one exploit is a TOS violation, the other exploit is a gray area. Both arguably provide an unfair advantage.
Frankly, I'm more concerned with DB addressing technical problems with the game itself (for example, I posted in the technical problems section that the probability of receiving my sub-par outcomes being in the hundredths of a percent range). But good luck with your efforts if you continue this fight.
My 8-Point STT Strategy:
1. Voyage.
2. Have fun. If something isn't fun, don't do it.
3. Only pursue characters I care about.
4. Contribute to the fleet.
5. No more spending beyond monthly cards.
6. Have fun.
7. Voyage.
8. Have fun!
Finally, in my opinion I feel there is a bit of hypocrisy in this outrage. During faction events, I use the one minute missions to bypass as many tiers up to the 4k missions as quickly as possible. As far as I'm aware, this hasn't been declared a violation, but it's still an exploit within the game. My guess is that all of the top players in faction events use this exploit (if you don't and just drop mad dilithium on shuttle time boosts, I sincerely apologize for the false accusation). If anything, this exploit effects far more players, as several newer players who aren't on the forum (or recently joined here) or not in a talkative fleet will likely not know about this. Even knowing this, it's hard to break into the top 1k for some people. So one exploit is a TOS violation, the other exploit is a gray area. Both arguably provide an unfair advantage.
I have no idea to what you are referring, so yes, it would seem this exploit is not universally known.
The accused cheater is still in the game, 1.5 months have passed since the end of that event. I guess they are still looking into it, they will do so for 3 years as well. It shouldn't be that hard or time consuming looking into a single user.
Finally, in my opinion I feel there is a bit of hypocrisy in this outrage. During faction events, I use the one minute missions to bypass as many tiers up to the 4k missions as quickly as possible. As far as I'm aware, this hasn't been declared a violation, but it's still an exploit within the game. My guess is that all of the top players in faction events use this exploit (if you don't and just drop mad dilithium on shuttle time boosts, I sincerely apologize for the false accusation). If anything, this exploit effects far more players, as several newer players who aren't on the forum (or recently joined here) or not in a talkative fleet will likely not know about this. Even knowing this, it's hard to break into the top 1k for some people. So one exploit is a TOS violation, the other exploit is a gray area. Both arguably provide an unfair advantage.
I have no idea to what you are referring, so yes, it would seem this exploit is not universally known.
It's not an exploit, it's a function of how the shuttle pulls work (i.e., how you get to pick from among the entire set of possible missions versus being stuck with a completely random draw), and has been discussed extensively on the forums in the past. See here on the wiki to give you an idea of how the points rewards for shuttles are determined: https://stt.wiki/wiki/Events#Faction_Event
Finally, in my opinion I feel there is a bit of hypocrisy in this outrage. During faction events, I use the one minute missions to bypass as many tiers up to the 4k missions as quickly as possible. As far as I'm aware, this hasn't been declared a violation, but it's still an exploit within the game. My guess is that all of the top players in faction events use this exploit (if you don't and just drop mad dilithium on shuttle time boosts, I sincerely apologize for the false accusation). If anything, this exploit effects far more players, as several newer players who aren't on the forum (or recently joined here) or not in a talkative fleet will likely not know about this. Even knowing this, it's hard to break into the top 1k for some people. So one exploit is a TOS violation, the other exploit is a gray area. Both arguably provide an unfair advantage.
I have no idea to what you are referring, so yes, it would seem this exploit is not universally known.
It's not an exploit, it's a function of how the shuttle pulls work (i.e., how you get to pick from among the entire set of possible missions versus being stuck with a completely random draw), and has been discussed extensively on the forums in the past. See here on the wiki to give you an idea of how the points rewards for shuttles are determined: https://stt.wiki/wiki/Events#Faction_Event
Opening multiple shuttles to get the best fit mission is not what I was referencing though. I was talking about how you can open multiple shuttles early in a faction event to skip intermediate levels (i.e., 1500-3500 points) faster. When the possibility of 30 (60 second) shuttle missions open at once was (generally) eliminated, this seemed at least in part to address this exploit. Unless you can point me to where a DB rep explicitly said they wove the kickstart process into the game mechanics on purpose, this is definitely an exploit.
My 8-Point STT Strategy:
1. Voyage.
2. Have fun. If something isn't fun, don't do it.
3. Only pursue characters I care about.
4. Contribute to the fleet.
5. No more spending beyond monthly cards.
6. Have fun.
7. Voyage.
8. Have fun!
Finally, in my opinion I feel there is a bit of hypocrisy in this outrage. During faction events, I use the one minute missions to bypass as many tiers up to the 4k missions as quickly as possible. As far as I'm aware, this hasn't been declared a violation, but it's still an exploit within the game. My guess is that all of the top players in faction events use this exploit (if you don't and just drop mad dilithium on shuttle time boosts, I sincerely apologize for the false accusation). If anything, this exploit effects far more players, as several newer players who aren't on the forum (or recently joined here) or not in a talkative fleet will likely not know about this. Even knowing this, it's hard to break into the top 1k for some people. So one exploit is a TOS violation, the other exploit is a gray area. Both arguably provide an unfair advantage.
I have no idea to what you are referring, so yes, it would seem this exploit is not universally known.
It's not an exploit, it's a function of how the shuttle pulls work (i.e., how you get to pick from among the entire set of possible missions versus being stuck with a completely random draw), and has been discussed extensively on the forums in the past. See here on the wiki to give you an idea of how the points rewards for shuttles are determined: https://stt.wiki/wiki/Events#Faction_Event
Opening multiple shuttles to get the best fit mission is not what I was referencing though. I was talking about how you can open multiple shuttles early in a faction event to skip intermediate levels (i.e., 1500-3500 points) faster. When the possibility of 30 (60 second) shuttle missions open at once was (generally) eliminated, this seemed at least in part to address this exploit. Unless you can point me to where a DB rep explicitly said they wove the kickstart process into the game mechanics on purpose, this is definitely an exploit.
Details of the kick start have been on this forum for years (like, literally since the game start). DB has had plenty of opportunity to denounce it or make changes to the shuttles to prevent it (which wouldn't be difficult). They have not taken any steps to change it or discourage the behavior. They did reduce the number of missions per event, which somewhat neuters its effectiveness.
@RogueAngyl
Player A diligently pre-accumulates event resources. Player B does the same. Player A invests 20 hours of their time playing the event. Player B spends 5 minutes setting up a macro at the start of the event. In your view, these 2 players have played the same game. In most people's view, Player B has cheated. Playing STT requires resource management. One of those resources is TIME. If Player B can't play the event for as many hours as Player A because, for example, he/she has a cross-country flight scheduled during the event, well then, Player B has insufficient resources to compete with Player A in that event. It's that simple.
@ByloBand
The shuttle "exploit" being referred to is the kickstart procedure. It has been discussed in numerous threads on the forums. It is not a "cheat" as RogueAngyl seems to think. It is a feature of the game's mechanics that any player can discover through trial and error. Every player has access to it, though it may take each individual a variable amount of time to discover it (and to develop their crew enough to utilize it). It took me 3-4 months to fully grasp it when I started playing in 2016, and that was back when people didn't post explicit details of the procedure for all to read.
DB never "explicitly" says anything. Period. We all know that, first of all. DB has also not explicitly denounced the practice (while they have denounced others). They obviously know most of us use the kickstart regularly, which is the reason for reducing the number of missions per faction. However, they could easily stop the kickstart and the leaving missions open. Yes, this is a minor exploit, but it is well known and helps both players and DB. Players get a boost and DB gets people using and buying more boosts and missions. Win, win.
Finally, in my opinion I feel there is a bit of hypocrisy in this outrage. During faction events, I use the one minute missions to bypass as many tiers up to the 4k missions as quickly as possible. As far as I'm aware, this hasn't been declared a violation, but it's still an exploit within the game. My guess is that all of the top players in faction events use this exploit (if you don't and just drop mad dilithium on shuttle time boosts, I sincerely apologize for the false accusation). If anything, this exploit effects far more players, as several newer players who aren't on the forum (or recently joined here) or not in a talkative fleet will likely not know about this. Even knowing this, it's hard to break into the top 1k for some people. So one exploit is a TOS violation, the other exploit is a gray area. Both arguably provide an unfair advantage.
I have no idea to what you are referring, so yes, it would seem this exploit is not universally known.
It's not an exploit, it's a function of how the shuttle pulls work (i.e., how you get to pick from among the entire set of possible missions versus being stuck with a completely random draw), and has been discussed extensively on the forums in the past. See here on the wiki to give you an idea of how the points rewards for shuttles are determined: https://stt.wiki/wiki/Events#Faction_Event
Opening multiple shuttles to get the best fit mission is not what I was referencing though. I was talking about how you can open multiple shuttles early in a faction event to skip intermediate levels (i.e., 1500-3500 points) faster. When the possibility of 30 (60 second) shuttle missions open at once was (generally) eliminated, this seemed at least in part to address this exploit. Unless you can point me to where a DB rep explicitly said they wove the kickstart process into the game mechanics on purpose, this is definitely an exploit.
Details of the kick start have been on this forum for years (like, literally since the game start). DB has had plenty of opportunity to denounce it or make changes to the shuttles to prevent it (which wouldn't be difficult). They have not taken any steps to change it or discourage the behavior. They did reduce the number of missions per event, which somewhat neuters its effectiveness.
Exploits also imply that a) it's a bug that the devs do not know exists, and b) it's a bug that has been deliberately concealed from everyone else playing the game so that it can be *exploited* for the advantage of a very small number of people. There have been exploits before this macro scourge that meet these conditions (e.g., one very old shuttle bug that made failures at a certain level pay out more points than if you succeeded, the Fourth of July portal bug from this year). Quickstart ain't one of them.
The ability to quickstart is a side-effect of allowing people to cherry-pick portals, which is pretty much essential to make Faction event results more than a function of 100% RNG. If DB's code were in a condition where they could change how shuttles function so we don't have the ability to quickstart, I'm sure they would have done it by now. Plenty of people quickstart for the purpose of getting whatever play they want to do for an event done up front, so they can get on with their lives for the rest of the weekend, or just because they find it more interesting to do.
Playing STT requires resource management. One of those resources is TIME. If Player B can't play the event for as many hours as Player A because, for example, he/she has a cross-country flight scheduled during the event, well then, Player B has insufficient resources to compete with Player A in that event. It's that simple.
I'm not disagreeing that time management is necessary. However if there are tools available publicly for anyone to use, I would say that's still time management.
It is a feature of the game's mechanics that any player can discover through trial and error. Every player has access to it
...which as a seemingly unintended aspect of the game, I would call this an exploit.
That argument actually only supports what I'm saying. I'm not the most computer savvy person here, and yet a week or two ago I was curious about this whole issue, wanted to make a more informed opinion, and pretty easily figured how I could run macros myself. It cost me no money. If I could do it, most people here likely could. If it wasn't a TOS issue, then I would gamble a lot more people would be using this "tool" to improve their time management.
If someone had figured out a way of introducing a script that, for example, speeds up voyages, that would clearly be a cheat by my definition.
My 8-Point STT Strategy:
1. Voyage.
2. Have fun. If something isn't fun, don't do it.
3. Only pursue characters I care about.
4. Contribute to the fleet.
5. No more spending beyond monthly cards.
6. Have fun.
7. Voyage.
8. Have fun!
Finally, in my opinion I feel there is a bit of hypocrisy in this outrage. During faction events, I use the one minute missions to bypass as many tiers up to the 4k missions as quickly as possible. As far as I'm aware, this hasn't been declared a violation, but it's still an exploit within the game. My guess is that all of the top players in faction events use this exploit (if you don't and just drop mad dilithium on shuttle time boosts, I sincerely apologize for the false accusation). If anything, this exploit effects far more players, as several newer players who aren't on the forum (or recently joined here) or not in a talkative fleet will likely not know about this. Even knowing this, it's hard to break into the top 1k for some people. So one exploit is a TOS violation, the other exploit is a gray area. Both arguably provide an unfair advantage.
I have no idea to what you are referring, so yes, it would seem this exploit is not universally known.
It's not an exploit, it's a function of how the shuttle pulls work (i.e., how you get to pick from among the entire set of possible missions versus being stuck with a completely random draw), and has been discussed extensively on the forums in the past. See here on the wiki to give you an idea of how the points rewards for shuttles are determined: https://stt.wiki/wiki/Events#Faction_Event
Opening multiple shuttles to get the best fit mission is not what I was referencing though. I was talking about how you can open multiple shuttles early in a faction event to skip intermediate levels (i.e., 1500-3500 points) faster. When the possibility of 30 (60 second) shuttle missions open at once was (generally) eliminated, this seemed at least in part to address this exploit. Unless you can point me to where a DB rep explicitly said they wove the kickstart process into the game mechanics on purpose, this is definitely an exploit.
Details of the kick start have been on this forum for years (like, literally since the game start). DB has had plenty of opportunity to denounce it or make changes to the shuttles to prevent it (which wouldn't be difficult). They have not taken any steps to change it or discourage the behavior. They did reduce the number of missions per event, which somewhat neuters its effectiveness.
Exploits also imply that a) it's a bug that the devs do not know exists, and b) it's a bug that has been deliberately concealed from everyone else playing the game so that it can be *exploited* for the advantage of a very small number of people. There have been exploits before this macro scourge that meet these conditions (e.g., one very old shuttle bug that made failures at a certain level pay out more points than if you succeeded, the Fourth of July portal bug from this year). Quickstart ain't one of them.
The ability to quickstart is a side-effect of allowing people to cherry-pick portals, which is pretty much essential to make Faction event results more than a function of 100% RNG. If DB's code were in a condition where they could change how shuttles function so we don't have the ability to quickstart, I'm sure they would have done it by now. Plenty of people quickstart for the purpose of getting whatever play they want to do for an event done up front, so they can get on with their lives for the rest of the weekend, or just because they find it more interesting to do.
I'm not sure why you chose to quote me. I'm well aware of what the quick start is and why/how people use it.
DB could make two extremely small changes that would completely remove the "kickstart" behavior while preserving the "mission choice" functionality:
Shuttles aren't available to re-send until acquired rewards are claimed
Difficulty of opened missions updates after rewards are claimed
Unless you can point me to where a DB rep explicitly said they wove the kickstart process into the game mechanics on purpose, this is definitely an exploit.
Playing the game is an exploit. You're only supposed to use your brain to think about playing, but not too hard or we'll report you for tryharding and that's an exploit.
And don't you dare let anyone find out that you've actually downloaded the app. Whoo. That's a megaexploit.
Since this thread has been pretty effectively derailed by someone who says they're fine with macro use trying to pick a fight over shuttle quickstarting... people shouldn't be using macros, period. DB shouldn't be letting people who have demonstrably used macros play the game any longer, period. There's no gray area in the TOS, macros are a blatant violation of the rules.
The cynical reaction would be to assume DB are leaving the ability to macro and the macro-ers in place because they believe it provokes additional spending from people who are just trying to keep up with the cheaters. I'm more inclined to chalk up the lack of a fix to incompetence/problematic base code/unimaginative design, but the failure to eject cheaters is rather appalling.
Unless you can point me to where a DB rep explicitly said they wove the kickstart process into the game mechanics on purpose, this is definitely an exploit.
Playing the game is an exploit. You're only supposed to use your brain to think about playing, but not too hard or we'll report you for tryharding and that's an exploit.
And don't you dare let anyone find out that you've actually downloaded the app. Whoo. That's a megaexploit.
oh my god, darxide, are you one of these app users?! I thought you were trustworthy!
If we stand together, speak together and act together, we can #STOPMACROS
Let's please try to remember what this thread is about and stay on topic.
My original post took a while to write up. Time that I could have spent doing something else but gladly gave to this cause. I would appreciate it if this thread didn't get closed.
Thank you.
The Guardians of Tomorrow Protecting the Galaxy's Future from Itself
Fleet Admiral
Step 1. Download App
Step 2. Play as outlined, not looking for loopholes.
Step.3 If Work, helping someone out, vacation, catching a Flight interfere with playing "DON'T PLAY"
STEP 4. HAVE FUN
Let's please try to remember what this thread is about and stay on topic.
My original post took a while to write up. Time that I could have spent doing something else but gladly gave to this cause. I would appreciate it if this thread didn't get closed.
I do not deny in any way that your original post was indeed well thought out and well presented. In fact, this is why I chose to present my dissenting (and expectedly unpopular) opinion here: you presented a strong argument (perhaps a stronger argument against macros than most if not all) but I have not been convinced previously and continue not to be. I have made an effort today in my replies not to engage in personal attacks, instead to focus on how my perspective of the state of affairs in the game is relevant in light of your argument.
Some ran with specific arguments I presented. This has taken us down a few rabbit holes. It appears that all but a select minority disagrees with me. I'm okay with that. To say this thread was "derailed" is a bit extreme as this all comes down to what we, the players of STT, consider the threshold for fair play. We have all been down right cordial by internet standards. I don't see why there should be any concern about it getting shut down.
I'm happy to agree to disagree, as we are generally on opposite sides of this discussion. I think this was better than starting a counter-thread like "#MacrosAintTooBad" or something else absurd, because I have little tolerance for online echo chambers. As anything else I would like to say would be perceived as a personal attack even by me (and would likely discourage any further productive discussion), I will leave it at that.
My 8-Point STT Strategy:
1. Voyage.
2. Have fun. If something isn't fun, don't do it.
3. Only pursue characters I care about.
4. Contribute to the fleet.
5. No more spending beyond monthly cards.
6. Have fun.
7. Voyage.
8. Have fun!
Comments
Expensive to macro? Please explain this concept.
It would make the event much more rewarding, converting it from a boring grind to a skilfull maxing of each skirmish. Furthermore there would be a finite limit to the event like Galaxy events. Out of crons, event over. Job done.
You can macro lots of things. Collecting daily rewards could be macroed. The point is not to stop macroing the point is to make it redundant.
Raising the intel cost would still leave the same brain dead skirmish mechanics. The problem is when the event requires no thought and yields the same VP for everyone, it becomes nothing but a grind to repeat the same actions over and over again. Increasing intel won't change that. I'm all for changing the event to be a skillfull maxing of each skirmish. I've outlined my ideas multiple times in the past. But just increasing intel costs won't accomplish that.
I can't be bothered explaining why [/s]
It would be more expensive because it would cost more chronotons due to escalating costs. If memory serves me right, someone estimated the chron cost around 30-40k for perpetually running skirmish battles. If the costs per battle were to even modestly increase, the feedback loop of Chron -> Intel -> Chron gets significantly worse. This also means, as a whole, fewer rewards for everyone (due to increased intel costs).
Yes, you are correct that it would reduce some on the incentive to macro. Right now, it is time-prohibitive to actually exhaust your own chron stash. It just does it at the cost of lowering rewards. I have no problem with that aspect, personally, but there is a faction of the forums that would break out the pitchforks over it.
Yes but a doable one. The same can be said for faction events. You choose your missions and crew the rest being repetitive recycling of shuttles.
Increasing Intel makes it more like faction and galaxy events and would solve the problem of macros.
The issue is redundant however. DB doesnt care. If they did they would try it. Introduce it as a variant. See what happened. The reason I couldn't be bothered explaining initially is because DB does not care about us.
Lol
Oooooweee careful you might be called a Troll.
I like it. Call it what it is.
Check out our website to find out more:
https://wiki.tenforwardloungers.com/
People have claimed to macro galaxy events too. The difference in a faction event is that you can only run shuttles every 3 hours(maybe a little more frequently with speedboosts). So there is limited benefit to automate what a human can still do. For skirmish and galaxy events you can keep running as long as you have resources. Skirmish events are the cheapest to run, so you see the largest macro issue, but it's true for galaxy too.
I've already hit the point where my limiting factor in galaxy events is time not chronitons. Increasing costs for both just makes the events more expensive for players while still being just as boring. DB needs to redesign the events to emphasize strategy instead of grinding.
First of all, their "macro killer" isn't even close to a macro killer .. it's just an extra step for a macro to process .. in short - it's a joke.
It's there to placate everyone "See, we did .. *something* ... we're helping!" .. in the meantime, they're not doing anything.
That said, combating things like macros is NOT trivial ... almost anything you do to combat it can - in turn - be handled by a more sophisticated macro. (I speak as an experienced software developer / DBA)
Also, even tracking the progress of top players isn't a great indication of macro use. It is possible for a macro to be programmed with .. "pauses" so your graph starts to look more "human" ... again, keep in mind that anything you think of track them, is not always a guarantee.
Personally, I think the best option for "slowing down" macro use .. (note, I didn't say stop it .. I'm not sure you can stop it) .. is something like this: (which at first, of course, is going to annoy .. like .. EVERYONE .. )
Every time a new screen is loaded ... place the buttons and such in different places ... this would require people to slow down, and READ .. and look at what they're doing.
Macros, would have a VERY difficult time trying to keep up to this.
I'm not suggesting random placement .. but have several different layouts that you randomize from ... a couple even where the buttons are in reverse or such.
Keep in mind that a simple macro could be setup to just tap different sections of screen .. "hoping" to push the right button .. but if you have a couple screens where that results in "cancel" or something opposite to the effect, that helps interfere with the macro more than anything else will.
In addition to this, others have mentioned, make events less grindy and repetitive ... add more dynamic elements into it ... each time you do, macros become exponentially more difficult to implement.
*shrug* .. it's not easy .. it's almost like the issue with virus's and spammers ... you come up with a solution for them, so they get more sophisticated to bypass that "solution" ..
I selectively give full participation to events. I have on occasion made it into the top 50 when putting enough effort in, as I did in the recent galaxy event. I am a relatively modest spender in game, so my galaxy run was the result of over three weeks of being strategic in my voyage times and almost no spending of chronitons. I was really hoping that this would have been enough to get me my Top 25 achievement, and I was very surprised to see how my efforts compared to other players ahead of me.
With my heaping garbage pile of chronitons, I really did think about jumping the line and macro-ing through that event, especially since I had a flight from east coast US to west coast Canada scheduled about 75% of the way through the event. For the record, I didn't macro, but still I was tempted, because it's my understanding from these forums that I is a TOS violation. So pat yourselves on the back, guys, you stopped one person here from macro-ing. But if they decided to "legalize" macro-ing tomorrow (which I don't expect to happen but wouldn't be surprised given my second point below), I might consider it. The biggest deterrent to me is having a device dedicated to this practice for a prolonged period of time.
Nevertheless, I don't have a significant problem with it in spirit. I don't fault anyone for doing it as if you are willing to risk consequences with TOS violations, then so be it, I see it as being a smart and functional way of managing time. You still have to do something to attain chronitons for the galaxy and skirmish events. You can bank over time like I do, or you can spend real cash to buy them when possible; or in the case of galaxy events you can farm material over time, but same difference in my opinion. Now, if someone were skirting that aspect of the game and somehow illicitly collecting materials (i.e., chronitons), then I'd be calling for much more action, because that would be fraud plain and simple. I don't know if anyone has been identified as doing that, but at that level I would think this is a much larger issue than using an unfair advantage in a game, such as using a stolen credit card, paypal info, etc.
I'm not saying you all should not advocate to have this addressed, I just don't think it's that big of an issue. I'd be surprised if I was the only one who felt this way. I was really hoping for top 25 in the last galaxy, but I don't blame macro use for my finish at 32 on macro use. People just outsaved and/or outspent me. Maybe macros accounted for those seven positions, but I still look at as they were willing to spend either time or money or exert the discipline to play judiciously to have the resources to achieve it. And here lies the second reason I find myself not jumping on this bandwagon.
Assuming these people are not fraudulently achieving their materials, there's a reasonable likelihood they are spending money, and decent money at that. Would they spend that money if they couldn't macro? Given the recent developments in Disrupter Beam (and Tilting Point), I wonder how much of a priority this is. On one hand, they have people paying them money in the process of over-stretching the rules, and on the other hand, they have people paying them money to play in good faith. I don't see where they are being hurt (yet) by this. So why would why choose this sword to fall on?
Finally, in my opinion I feel there is a bit of hypocrisy in this outrage. During faction events, I use the one minute missions to bypass as many tiers up to the 4k missions as quickly as possible. As far as I'm aware, this hasn't been declared a violation, but it's still an exploit within the game. My guess is that all of the top players in faction events use this exploit (if you don't and just drop mad dilithium on shuttle time boosts, I sincerely apologize for the false accusation). If anything, this exploit effects far more players, as several newer players who aren't on the forum (or recently joined here) or not in a talkative fleet will likely not know about this. Even knowing this, it's hard to break into the top 1k for some people. So one exploit is a TOS violation, the other exploit is a gray area. Both arguably provide an unfair advantage.
Frankly, I'm more concerned with DB addressing technical problems with the game itself (for example, I posted in the technical problems section that the probability of receiving my sub-par outcomes being in the hundredths of a percent range). But good luck with your efforts if you continue this fight.
1. Voyage.
2. Have fun. If something isn't fun, don't do it.
3. Only pursue characters I care about.
4. Contribute to the fleet.
5. No more spending beyond monthly cards.
6. Have fun.
7. Voyage.
8. Have fun!
I have no idea to what you are referring, so yes, it would seem this exploit is not universally known.
For how bad skirmish event design is, I wouldn't even mind this as a solution
It's not an exploit, it's a function of how the shuttle pulls work (i.e., how you get to pick from among the entire set of possible missions versus being stuck with a completely random draw), and has been discussed extensively on the forums in the past. See here on the wiki to give you an idea of how the points rewards for shuttles are determined: https://stt.wiki/wiki/Events#Faction_Event
Opening multiple shuttles to get the best fit mission is not what I was referencing though. I was talking about how you can open multiple shuttles early in a faction event to skip intermediate levels (i.e., 1500-3500 points) faster. When the possibility of 30 (60 second) shuttle missions open at once was (generally) eliminated, this seemed at least in part to address this exploit. Unless you can point me to where a DB rep explicitly said they wove the kickstart process into the game mechanics on purpose, this is definitely an exploit.
1. Voyage.
2. Have fun. If something isn't fun, don't do it.
3. Only pursue characters I care about.
4. Contribute to the fleet.
5. No more spending beyond monthly cards.
6. Have fun.
7. Voyage.
8. Have fun!
Details of the kick start have been on this forum for years (like, literally since the game start). DB has had plenty of opportunity to denounce it or make changes to the shuttles to prevent it (which wouldn't be difficult). They have not taken any steps to change it or discourage the behavior. They did reduce the number of missions per event, which somewhat neuters its effectiveness.
Player A diligently pre-accumulates event resources. Player B does the same. Player A invests 20 hours of their time playing the event. Player B spends 5 minutes setting up a macro at the start of the event. In your view, these 2 players have played the same game. In most people's view, Player B has cheated. Playing STT requires resource management. One of those resources is TIME. If Player B can't play the event for as many hours as Player A because, for example, he/she has a cross-country flight scheduled during the event, well then, Player B has insufficient resources to compete with Player A in that event. It's that simple.
@ByloBand
The shuttle "exploit" being referred to is the kickstart procedure. It has been discussed in numerous threads on the forums. It is not a "cheat" as RogueAngyl seems to think. It is a feature of the game's mechanics that any player can discover through trial and error. Every player has access to it, though it may take each individual a variable amount of time to discover it (and to develop their crew enough to utilize it). It took me 3-4 months to fully grasp it when I started playing in 2016, and that was back when people didn't post explicit details of the procedure for all to read.
Exploits also imply that a) it's a bug that the devs do not know exists, and b) it's a bug that has been deliberately concealed from everyone else playing the game so that it can be *exploited* for the advantage of a very small number of people. There have been exploits before this macro scourge that meet these conditions (e.g., one very old shuttle bug that made failures at a certain level pay out more points than if you succeeded, the Fourth of July portal bug from this year). Quickstart ain't one of them.
The ability to quickstart is a side-effect of allowing people to cherry-pick portals, which is pretty much essential to make Faction event results more than a function of 100% RNG. If DB's code were in a condition where they could change how shuttles function so we don't have the ability to quickstart, I'm sure they would have done it by now. Plenty of people quickstart for the purpose of getting whatever play they want to do for an event done up front, so they can get on with their lives for the rest of the weekend, or just because they find it more interesting to do.
I'm not disagreeing that time management is necessary. However if there are tools available publicly for anyone to use, I would say that's still time management.
I never said it was a cheat. I said it was an exploit. I differentiate between the two.
...which as a seemingly unintended aspect of the game, I would call this an exploit.
That argument actually only supports what I'm saying. I'm not the most computer savvy person here, and yet a week or two ago I was curious about this whole issue, wanted to make a more informed opinion, and pretty easily figured how I could run macros myself. It cost me no money. If I could do it, most people here likely could. If it wasn't a TOS issue, then I would gamble a lot more people would be using this "tool" to improve their time management.
If someone had figured out a way of introducing a script that, for example, speeds up voyages, that would clearly be a cheat by my definition.
1. Voyage.
2. Have fun. If something isn't fun, don't do it.
3. Only pursue characters I care about.
4. Contribute to the fleet.
5. No more spending beyond monthly cards.
6. Have fun.
7. Voyage.
8. Have fun!
I'm not sure why you chose to quote me. I'm well aware of what the quick start is and why/how people use it.
DB could make two extremely small changes that would completely remove the "kickstart" behavior while preserving the "mission choice" functionality:
Playing the game is an exploit. You're only supposed to use your brain to think about playing, but not too hard or we'll report you for tryharding and that's an exploit.
And don't you dare let anyone find out that you've actually downloaded the app. Whoo. That's a megaexploit.
The cynical reaction would be to assume DB are leaving the ability to macro and the macro-ers in place because they believe it provokes additional spending from people who are just trying to keep up with the cheaters. I'm more inclined to chalk up the lack of a fix to incompetence/problematic base code/unimaginative design, but the failure to eject cheaters is rather appalling.
oh my god, darxide, are you one of these app users?! I thought you were trustworthy!
Let's please try to remember what this thread is about and stay on topic.
My original post took a while to write up. Time that I could have spent doing something else but gladly gave to this cause. I would appreciate it if this thread didn't get closed.
Thank you.
Protecting the Galaxy's Future from Itself
Fleet Admiral
For more info on us, check our wiki page:
https://sttwiki.org/wiki/Fleet_Guardians_of_Tomorrow
GoT Bot server: https://discord.gg/R8QzpjW
All are welcome to join and use the Bot.
Step 2. Play as outlined, not looking for loopholes.
Step.3 If Work, helping someone out, vacation, catching a Flight interfere with playing "DON'T PLAY"
STEP 4. HAVE FUN
I do not deny in any way that your original post was indeed well thought out and well presented. In fact, this is why I chose to present my dissenting (and expectedly unpopular) opinion here: you presented a strong argument (perhaps a stronger argument against macros than most if not all) but I have not been convinced previously and continue not to be. I have made an effort today in my replies not to engage in personal attacks, instead to focus on how my perspective of the state of affairs in the game is relevant in light of your argument.
Some ran with specific arguments I presented. This has taken us down a few rabbit holes. It appears that all but a select minority disagrees with me. I'm okay with that. To say this thread was "derailed" is a bit extreme as this all comes down to what we, the players of STT, consider the threshold for fair play. We have all been down right cordial by internet standards. I don't see why there should be any concern about it getting shut down.
I'm happy to agree to disagree, as we are generally on opposite sides of this discussion. I think this was better than starting a counter-thread like "#MacrosAintTooBad" or something else absurd, because I have little tolerance for online echo chambers. As anything else I would like to say would be perceived as a personal attack even by me (and would likely discourage any further productive discussion), I will leave it at that.
1. Voyage.
2. Have fun. If something isn't fun, don't do it.
3. Only pursue characters I care about.
4. Contribute to the fleet.
5. No more spending beyond monthly cards.
6. Have fun.
7. Voyage.
8. Have fun!