Let's please try to remember what this thread is about and stay on topic.
My original post took a while to write up. Time that I could have spent doing something else but gladly gave to this cause. I would appreciate it if this thread didn't get closed.
I do not deny in any way that your original post was indeed well thought out and well presented. In fact, this is why I chose to present my dissenting (and expectedly unpopular) opinion here: you presented a strong argument (perhaps a stronger argument against macros than most if not all) but I have not been convinced previously and continue not to be. I have made an effort today in my replies not to engage in personal attacks, instead to focus on how my perspective of the state of affairs in the game is relevant in light of your argument.
Some ran with specific arguments I presented. This has taken us down a few rabbit holes. It appears that all but a select minority disagrees with me. I'm okay with that. To say this thread was "derailed" is a bit extreme as this all comes down to what we, the players of STT, consider the threshold for fair play. We have all been down right cordial by internet standards. I don't see why there should be any concern about it getting shut down.
I'm happy to agree to disagree, as we are generally on opposite sides of this discussion. I think this was better than starting a counter-thread like "#MacrosAintTooBad" or something else absurd, because I have little tolerance for online echo chambers. As anything else I would like to say would be perceived as a personal attack even by me (and would likely discourage any further productive discussion), I will leave it at that.
Amen to the part where we all have different definitions of fair play.
People choose to draw the line wherever they'd like. Wherever it suits them. Fine by me.
If we stand together, speak together and act together, we can #STOPMACROS
Let's please try to remember what this thread is about and stay on topic.
My original post took a while to write up. Time that I could have spent doing something else but gladly gave to this cause. I would appreciate it if this thread didn't get closed.
Thank you.
We don't want to see that. Thanka Gabe for all the effort you have spent compiling and presenting all that information and providing a summery of the macro issue. I've refered my fleet here for those who haven't been following it to get up to speed.
Don’t use macros myself. Can’t say I haven’t been tempted too after 12 hours of mindless Skirmishes but my iPhone is not the right platform to do so on.
But... hopefully I can inject some humor into the subject (yes, I will clearly state that it is satire and humor upfront). You could easily change the topic line to “Skirmishes” instead.
If you want DB to treat this issue as seriously as those affected by these macros, then you must boycott the game entirely. Everyone you can muster should submit a ticket or contact email stating that you are going to uninstall the game and spend your time and money elsewhere until they resolve this issue and then do so until they state that they have fixed it. That is how you get results from a business. Their greatest weakness is always a viable competitor.
Also, even tracking the progress of top players isn't a great indication of macro use. It is possible for a macro to be programmed with .. "pauses" so your graph starts to look more "human" ... again, keep in mind that anything you think of track them, is not always a guarantee.
Thank you!
I find that the loudest voices against this issue seem to be the biggest offenders.
This issue is larger than anyone cares to admit.
I'd go out on a limb by saying all those players in that graph were macroing, including Captain Obvious.
Guess a small victory with the release notes today.
But yes, the afore players using macros should be punished in some way now! Not allow them to repeat and test DB measures since we know they're weak to begin with.
I'm sorry, I really don't care about the macro users. The biggest impact these very few have is on the whales, and it doesn't change their behavior much, and as DB sees it, might encourage them to spend more.
The real problem is a boring and repetitive play mode and a poor reward structure, both which encourage players to find a way to make things interesting, alleviate the tedium by automating painful aspects of the game.
I'm sorry, I really don't care about the macro users. The biggest impact these very few have is on the whales, and it doesn't change their behavior much, and as DB sees it, might encourage them to spend more.
The real problem is a boring and repetitive play mode and a poor reward structure, both which encourage players to find a way to make things interesting, alleviate the tedium by automating painful aspects of the game.
I think of it the opposite. It doesn’t encourage me to spend more to go for that top finish, it gives me a defeatist attitude from the start and so I just coast and where I end up in the rankings is where I end up
I'm sorry, I really don't care about the macro users. The biggest impact these very few have is on the whales, and it doesn't change their behavior much, and as DB sees it, might encourage them to spend more.
The real problem is a boring and repetitive play mode and a poor reward structure, both which encourage players to find a way to make things interesting, alleviate the tedium by automating painful aspects of the game.
The issue about macros, isn't that they impact whales, but people of all spending levels who decide to spend months of accumulated in game resources to perform well in an event.
There are two things necessary for performing well in a skirmish or galaxy event, time and accumulated resources (chrons and/or prefarmed items). Given the availability of resources from voyages and daily tasks its quite possible for a player who has been playing a while, but not spent a dime on the game to have accumulated enough resources to win an event.
The issue is that several people every week could have enough resources saved to be able to win a skirmish or galaxy event if they devoted their entire weekend (and didn't sleep), however its likely that only a few of them have the flexibility to spend almost their whole weekend tapping. Whomever chooses to spend the most time on these events is the one who should win, and are exactly whom are impacted by macros users, not the whales.
My issue with skirmishes is the grind. We should not even be discussing macro use until the grind issue is solved first.
Anyone using macro like iampicard (giving advantages in voyage rewards, chrons, crew, honor) should be ashamed saying other who use macros, save chrons, and buy crew are cheating.
The problem is the game, not macros. All this cry-baby thread is going to do is get some banned while others boycott and more quit. Way to kill the game genious!
Argue for better game design, then macro use won't be a problem. I think we all agree this event type is horrible. 4 days of this grind is to much!
My issue with skirmishes is the grind. We should not even be discussing macro use until the grind issue is solved first.
Anyone using macro like iampicard (giving advantages in voyage rewards, chrons, crew, honor) should be ashamed saying other who use macros, save chrons, and buy crew are cheating.
The problem is the game, not macros. All this cry-baby thread is going to do is get some banned while others boycott and more quit. Way to kill the game genious!
Argue for better game design, then macro use won't be a problem. I think we all agree this event type is horrible. 4 days of this grind is to much!
Nope, i don t agree with you at all and for sure i am not the only one.
Many games have grinding involved and its called effort! Ist not an issue, just because you are too lazy to grind(which is ok).
Having a macro doing all the tapping for you is cheating and excusing it with constant tapping is too much, or boring event design(even when it is), is just a cheap and a lame excuse, like its mostly the case when cheaters defend their actions(just a general note, not saying ur a cheater).
And the thinking that macros only affect whales is wrong as well, it affects everyone. F.e. If only 1 is using macros to finish top 1000; he screws 1 legit player out of the top 1000 spot and the nxt one of top 1500 and so on.
So its not just the „whales“ (which is wrong as well since, even VIP0 folks can do top 25 or better in skirmishes) affected.
So you say the macro discussion and bans will keep ppl from spending? Well its quite the opposite, i spent and will spend less cause i know i my left tapping hand can t compete and keep up with macros. So i only do a relaxed top 1000 finish and out. And i know many that do the same for the very same reason.
DB is trying to stop macros but I am not sure what they are supposed to do to stop them. Not without causing huge problems for regular players playing the game without macros. Sadly cheating exists in almost every mobile game. I don't condone it and hope that DB can stop it but short of stopping all skirmishes or putting in a million annoying prompts we have to click through we will likely just have to live with it and hope the cheaters are not too numerous. But honestly I don't see much difference between the mega whales and the macroists. Both are doing what the vast majority of players cannot. And it is unclear how many mega whales are macroists as well. Using macros would not create chrons. People using it would have to spend tons of money to get those chrons. And event scores at the top are ever increasing, never hitting a threshold. If the whales want DB to stop the macroists then the best way to do that is for the top 15 every event to have to show their work somehow to DB and how they are getting such high scores so that DB can rule them out and kick the cheaters. If the non cheating whales showed how they got such high scores it would give DB much valuable information on patterns and what scores are possible and make DB better able to prevent future cheating. I doubt the whales are willing to do that but if they were then I think DB could quickly assess who was cheating and who wasn't.
They need to make the battles interesting and interactive. Not a boring loop of the same 25 to 30 key presses for 96 hours straight.
Ive been saying that for months now, I am not condoning cheating, but apparently it is going to happen regardless, so why not give people less reason to feel the need to by making the events less repetitive and more dynamic?
In truth thou, I am quite over the macro threads, Until Db listens or responds to any of them it kind of feels like walking into a wall over and over, thou I must admit the original post was well thought out and appreciate the time taken to spell it all out.
My issue with skirmishes is the grind. We should not even be discussing macro use until the grind issue is solved first.
Anyone using macro like iampicard (giving advantages in voyage rewards, chrons, crew, honor) should be ashamed saying other who use macros, save chrons, and buy crew are cheating.
The problem is the game, not macros. All this cry-baby thread is going to do is get some banned while others boycott and more quit. Way to kill the game genious!
Argue for better game design, then macro use won't be a problem. I think we all agree this event type is horrible. 4 days of this grind is to much!
Nope, i don t agree with you at all and for sure i am not the only one.
Many games have grinding involved and its called effort! Ist not an issue, just because you are too lazy to grind(which is ok).
Having a macro doing all the tapping for you is cheating and excusing it with constant tapping is too much, or boring event design(even when it is), is just a cheap and a lame excuse, like its mostly the case when cheaters defend their actions(just a general note, not saying ur a cheater).
And the thinking that macros only affect whales is wrong as well, it affects everyone. F.e. If only 1 is using macros to finish top 1000; he screws 1 legit player out of the top 1000 spot and the nxt one of top 1500 and so on.
So its not just the „whales“ (which is wrong as well since, even VIP0 folks can do top 25 or better in skirmishes) affected.
So you say the macro discussion and bans will keep ppl from spending? Well its quite the opposite, i spent and will spend less cause i know i my left tapping hand can t compete and keep up with macros. So i only do a relaxed top 1000 finish and out. And i know many that do the same for the very same reason.
I suppose I'll just c/p my response the last time you posted basically the same thing and never responded:
The best way to prevent bots is to have dynamic game play not easily quantifiable by a computer program.
Grinding isn't a skill. Having the willingness to invest an ever-growing amount of free time is. Personally, I would prefer if my results in events were reflective more of my crew and less about how much I decided to eschew my family for the weekend.
My issue with skirmishes is the grind. We should not even be discussing macro use until the grind issue is solved first.
Anyone using macro like iampicard (giving advantages in voyage rewards, chrons, crew, honor) should be ashamed saying other who use macros, save chrons, and buy crew are cheating.
The problem is the game, not macros. All this cry-baby thread is going to do is get some banned while others boycott and more quit. Way to kill the game genious!
Argue for better game design, then macro use won't be a problem. I think we all agree this event type is horrible. 4 days of this grind is to much!
Nope, i don t agree with you at all and for sure i am not the only one.
Many games have grinding involved and its called effort! Ist not an issue, just because you are too lazy to grind(which is ok).
Having a macro doing all the tapping for you is cheating and excusing it with constant tapping is too much, or boring event design(even when it is), is just a cheap and a lame excuse, like its mostly the case when cheaters defend their actions(just a general note, not saying ur a cheater).
And the thinking that macros only affect whales is wrong as well, it affects everyone. F.e. If only 1 is using macros to finish top 1000; he screws 1 legit player out of the top 1000 spot and the nxt one of top 1500 and so on.
So its not just the „whales“ (which is wrong as well since, even VIP0 folks can do top 25 or better in skirmishes) affected.
So you say the macro discussion and bans will keep ppl from spending? Well its quite the opposite, i spent and will spend less cause i know i my left tapping hand can t compete and keep up with macros. So i only do a relaxed top 1000 finish and out. And i know many that do the same for the very same reason.
I suppose I'll just c/p my response the last time you posted basically the same thing and never responded:
The best way to prevent bots is to have dynamic game play not easily quantifiable by a computer program.
Grinding isn't a skill. Having the willingness to invest an ever-growing amount of free time is. Personally, I would prefer if my results in events were reflective more of my crew and less about how much I decided to eschew my family for the weekend.
Your last sentence could not possibly have been said better.
We wanted to give you an update on how things are progressing regarding our efforts to curb macro usage in STAR TREK TIMELINES.
We have created new iterations and adjustments to the pop up system that you are already familiar with. These will require more active input from players. These changes are expected to go live mid-November with the release of our new client.
We are also implementing various monitoring tools that will allow us to identify players with suspicious play patterns during events.
We are taking this opportunity to remind everyone that automating game actions in any way is not allowed under our Terms of Service. Starting this week, players identified as using such methods to play the game will be banned.
The STAR TREK TIMELINES Team
Let me begin by thanking DB for their communique today. It is a positive first step. I look forward to seeing more progress in the coming weeks and months.
Although I agree that it's unjust to allow past macro users to go unpunished, I do understand why DB would choose to do this.
First, as I mentioned previously, the graphical evidence provided by the players only displays a small portion of the players who participated in the Event (top 50) so it would be unfair to simply punish those macro users who are a part of this group while other macro users, who were smart enough to stay out of the limelight, aren't penalized.
If DB does indeed have the tools to detect suspicious playing patterns for all players then it does make some sense that they start it this week since it just won't be the top 50 that are being scrutinized but in fact the entire player base.
Still unfair but I can see the logic in this.
I suppose DB also wanted to avoid the huge can of worms that would come from banning past macro users in terms of other players conceivably demanding compensation from previous Skirmish Events since, one could argue, that if player X was banned and his rank annulled, then other players would have finished higher in that Event and thus received more rewards. Multiply that by 5 Skirmish Events and tens of thousands of players and you can understand why DB would want to steer clear of this at all cost.
My only question about today's macro announcement is: will the community get any feedback on what actions were taken from the previous Event?
I know releasing the names of the players who were banned is not possible due to privacy issues but it would be beneficial if we could see the statistics for these measures. For example, what percentage of players were banned or how many in the top 100 were using a macro compared to the top 1000 or 5000. I believe this would go a long way to showing the community that actions are indeed being taken.
I agree with many who have stated in this thread that a better game/Event design that focuses more on player skill or crew quality would definitely be more desirable. It would not only help solve the macro issue but also make the game more entertaining.
I also agree that the discussion of macros has been beaten to death over these last 5 months but that's the thing. We've been discussing this for all this time because DB hasn't taken effective measures to deter it over this period. It's not like the problem was fixed and we're still beating the dead horse. The horse is still very much alive.
Let me also present the following question: we currently have 3 out of 4 Events (excluding Hybrids) that focus on some, if not a lot, of grinding, and players have been asking and pleading, since the launch of this game, for a better Event model, so isn't it more feasible to think that resolving the macro issue would be an easier fix than over hauling the entire game?
Finally, I'd like to thank those players who have publicly and privately supported the #STOPMACROS campaign thus far. The community's endorsement has been tremendous.
That being said, the #STOPMACROS campaign is far from over.
As I stated above, DB's announcement today was a move in the right direction. But this campaign will continue until we see clear and definitive action being taken by DB to deter macro use and punish those who use them.
As DaShanne Stokes once wrote, "Talk without the support of action means nothing."
So I urge everyone to keep displaying the tag #STOPMACROS in their in game and forum names as well as continuing to spread the word on all communication platforms where Timelines players can be found.
If we stand together, speak together and act together, we can .... will ..... #STOPMACROS
Thanks for reading.
The Guardians of Tomorrow Protecting the Galaxy's Future from Itself
Fleet Admiral
So players that were identified before this post are not getting banned? Why, when its clearly against ToS?
This. Especially when they were supposedly looking into the winner of the last skirmish for well over a month, almost 1.5 months. But it's better than nothing I guess.
My issue with skirmishes is the grind. We should not even be discussing macro use until the grind issue is solved first.
Anyone using macro like iampicard (giving advantages in voyage rewards, chrons, crew, honor) should be ashamed saying other who use macros, save chrons, and buy crew are cheating.
The problem is the game, not macros. All this cry-baby thread is going to do is get some banned while others boycott and more quit. Way to kill the game genious!
Argue for better game design, then macro use won't be a problem. I think we all agree this event type is horrible. 4 days of this grind is to much!
Iampicard is not a macro. And how exactly does it give any advantage in "voyage rewards, chrons, crew, honor" when it clearly doesn't do it? The voyage recommendation of the program isn't even that accurate, it stacks the 2 main skills and all other skills are just an afterthought. If anything, you can manually stack the crew much better. So if anything it's a nerf of voyage time and not a boost.
My issue with skirmishes is the grind. We should not even be discussing macro use until the grind issue is solved first.
Anyone using macro like iampicard (giving advantages in voyage rewards, chrons, crew, honor) should be ashamed saying other who use macros, save chrons, and buy crew are cheating.
The problem is the game, not macros. All this cry-baby thread is going to do is get some banned while others boycott and more quit. Way to kill the game genious!
Argue for better game design, then macro use won't be a problem. I think we all agree this event type is horrible. 4 days of this grind is to much!
Nope, i don t agree with you at all and for sure i am not the only one.
Many games have grinding involved and its called effort! Ist not an issue, just because you are too lazy to grind(which is ok).
Having a macro doing all the tapping for you is cheating and excusing it with constant tapping is too much, or boring event design(even when it is), is just a cheap and a lame excuse, like its mostly the case when cheaters defend their actions(just a general note, not saying ur a cheater).
And the thinking that macros only affect whales is wrong as well, it affects everyone. F.e. If only 1 is using macros to finish top 1000; he screws 1 legit player out of the top 1000 spot and the nxt one of top 1500 and so on.
So its not just the „whales“ (which is wrong as well since, even VIP0 folks can do top 25 or better in skirmishes) affected.
So you say the macro discussion and bans will keep ppl from spending? Well its quite the opposite, i spent and will spend less cause i know i my left tapping hand can t compete and keep up with macros. So i only do a relaxed top 1000 finish and out. And i know many that do the same for the very same reason.
I suppose I'll just c/p my response the last time you posted basically the same thing and never responded:
The best way to prevent bots is to have dynamic game play not easily quantifiable by a computer program.
Grinding isn't a skill. Having the willingness to invest an ever-growing amount of free time is. Personally, I would prefer if my results in events were reflective more of my crew and less about how much I decided to eschew my family for the weekend.
100%. I'll go even further, I would prefer if my results in events were reflective more of my ability to maximize my crew and less about how much I decided to eschew my family for the weekend.
The best way to prevent bots is to have dynamic game play not easily quantifiable by a computer program.
Grinding isn't a skill. Having the willingness to invest an ever-growing amount of free time is. Personally, I would prefer if my results in events were reflective more of my crew and less about how much I decided to eschew my family for the weekend.
Well said.
If you have an idea about how you could make the gameplay more dynamic, why not post your suggestion in the Suggestion section of the forum.
not that it will be paid much attention to by the powers that be, might as well shout our recommendations from our local court house steps for all it's worth
I have made my attempt to be constructive, however I expect that the kind of gameplay that would be more dynamic and engaging experience is beyond what DB is willing to invest in a massive overhaul.
So it comes down to a decision of how much external assistance or taking advantage of flexibility in the game's mechanics violates your sense of fairplay. As already discussed, I don't think macros are that big of a deal, but I also see benefits to events by stopping them.
The same way removing chronitons from voyages would benefit events. However that's probably even more of an unpopular position than not banning macros, and a conversation for another time/thread (since I agreed not to "derail" this thread).
My 8-Point STT Strategy:
1. Voyage.
2. Have fun. If something isn't fun, don't do it.
3. Only pursue characters I care about.
4. Contribute to the fleet.
5. No more spending beyond monthly cards.
6. Have fun.
7. Voyage.
8. Have fun!
The best way to prevent bots is to have dynamic game play not easily quantifiable by a computer program.
Grinding isn't a skill. Having the willingness to invest an ever-growing amount of free time is. Personally, I would prefer if my results in events were reflective more of my crew and less about how much I decided to eschew my family for the weekend.
Well said.
If you have an idea about how you could make the gameplay more dynamic, why not post your suggestion in the Suggestion section of the forum.
not that it will be paid much attention to by the powers that be, might as well shout our recommendations from our local court house steps for all it's worth
I have made my attempt to be constructive, however I expect that the kind of gameplay that would be more dynamic and engaging experience is beyond what DB is willing to invest in a massive overhaul.
So it comes down to a decision of how much external assistance or taking advantage of flexibility in the game's mechanics violates your sense of fairplay. As already discussed, I don't think macros are that big of a deal, but I also see benefits to events by stopping them.
The same way removing chronitons from voyages would benefit events. However that's probably even more of an unpopular position than not banning macros, and a conversation for another time/thread (since I agreed not to "derail" this thread).
Without more in depth knowledge of their codebase, it's difficult to give actionable feedback on what they should specifically do.
In a nutshell, I'm not sure it's actually possible to salvage skirmishes within the framework of how space battles currently function. I think the easiest way would be for them to add an additional difficulty level where there is real danger of losing for those with 10/10 ships and solid crew. That way cloak and burst timing matters or else you lose your round. If the timing restrictions are significantly tightened, it would make macros significantly less effective.
I've written it before, but here we go again. How to improve skirmish events
Give traits a meaningful impact on crew abilities such that matching traits can be the difference between winning and losing matches.
Remove the fixed 5 matches. Let the matches continue to go until you lose. Each successive match is harder and provides more VP. There is no more final bonus because there is no more final round. You play until you lose.
When you lose you can pay DIL to revive your ship and keep going(just like gauntlet/voyages). Let the DIL costs scale up with where you are too.
Randomize opponent ship and trait selection from a set pool.
Tweak the intel costs so that you're playing fewer long skirmishes instead of a lot of short skirmishes.
Keep the VP multiplier for bonus crew
What this accomplishes:
You get more points from long matches so you need to succeed to have a high VP
As the difficulty increases, you need to start worrying about matching traits to have a shot at winning.
At a certain point you need to decide between using a bonus crew for VP multiplier or a better crew to keep winning.
No two sequences are the same so you need to rethink your crew for each match based on the traits and your opponent.
With the need to select different crew each time bots can't automate the process.
Your final VP is determined based on how long you can keep your skirmishes going which means it's based on your crew selection and crew ability not mindless grinding.
If someone wants to P2W, they can pay DIL to extend streaks. This also raises revenue for DB.
I've written it before, but here we go again. How to improve skirmish events
Give traits a meaningful impact on crew abilities such that matching traits can be the difference between winning and losing matches.
Remove the fixed 5 matches. Let the matches continue to go until you lose. Each successive match is harder and provides more VP. There is no more final bonus because there is no more final round. You play until you lose.
When you lose you can pay DIL to revive your ship and keep going(just like gauntlet/voyages). Let the DIL costs scale up with where you are too.
Randomize opponent ship and trait selection from a set pool.
Tweak the intel costs so that you're playing fewer long skirmishes instead of a lot of short skirmishes.
Keep the VP multiplier for bonus crew
What this accomplishes:
You get more points from long matches so you need to succeed to have a high VP
As the difficulty increases, you need to start worrying about matching traits to have a shot at winning.
At a certain point you need to decide between using a bonus crew for VP multiplier or a better crew to keep winning.
No two sequences are the same so you need to rethink your crew for each match based on the traits and your opponent.
With the need to select different crew each time bots can't automate the process.
Your final VP is determined based on how long you can keep your skirmishes going which means it's based on your crew selection and crew ability not mindless grinding.
If someone wants to P2W, they can pay DIL to extend streaks. This also raises revenue for DB.
Would you recommend tickets like the arena and expeditions? Because I think you could still macro to run the first few battles in a skirmish and deliberately lose when it gets too difficult, which means you could still accrue lots of VP by running shorter skirmishes the same way it is done now. The VP increases would have to be considerable to make them worthwhile running at more difficult levels. Otherwise your idea sounds fantastic!
I've written it before, but here we go again. How to improve skirmish events
Give traits a meaningful impact on crew abilities such that matching traits can be the difference between winning and losing matches.
Remove the fixed 5 matches. Let the matches continue to go until you lose. Each successive match is harder and provides more VP. There is no more final bonus because there is no more final round. You play until you lose.
When you lose you can pay DIL to revive your ship and keep going(just like gauntlet/voyages). Let the DIL costs scale up with where you are too.
Randomize opponent ship and trait selection from a set pool.
Tweak the intel costs so that you're playing fewer long skirmishes instead of a lot of short skirmishes.
Keep the VP multiplier for bonus crew
What this accomplishes:
You get more points from long matches so you need to succeed to have a high VP
As the difficulty increases, you need to start worrying about matching traits to have a shot at winning.
At a certain point you need to decide between using a bonus crew for VP multiplier or a better crew to keep winning.
No two sequences are the same so you need to rethink your crew for each match based on the traits and your opponent.
With the need to select different crew each time bots can't automate the process.
Your final VP is determined based on how long you can keep your skirmishes going which means it's based on your crew selection and crew ability not mindless grinding.
If someone wants to P2W, they can pay DIL to extend streaks. This also raises revenue for DB.
Would you recommend tickets like the arena and expeditions? Because I think you could still macro to run the first few battles in a skirmish and deliberately lose when it gets too difficult, which means you could still accrue lots of VP by running shorter skirmishes the same way it is done now. The VP increases would have to be considerable to make them worthwhile running at more difficult levels. Otherwise your idea sounds fantastic!
What if the VP accrued for each battle, but none of it is credited to you unless you quit before you lose? If you make it all or nothing (or paying to continue), you cannot afford to leave any battle unattended.
I am so impressed on those that chose to stay on topic and not attempt to get their own agenda addressed. It appears having that many concerned players focus on one thing at a time can get the attention need to make changes. I would have any of them on my team as they are the truely powerful people that get things done.
I have to give kudos to the new owners for taking the time to listen to your customers. Please continue to listen to those that have an amazing ability to stick together. This game has the potential to become the benchmark of top games to play.
Macros in small doses for fun and not getting an edge are fine in some games. When using them to not play but win is not only an artificial win but a drag on anyone else wanting to play games against other humans. If you feel the game is just too boring with out illegal macros then perhaps start a thread with suggestions on how to make game play more enticing. Be part of the solution not part of the problem.
Comments
Amen to the part where we all have different definitions of fair play.
People choose to draw the line wherever they'd like. Wherever it suits them. Fine by me.
We don't want to see that. Thanka Gabe for all the effort you have spent compiling and presenting all that information and providing a summery of the macro issue. I've refered my fleet here for those who haven't been following it to get up to speed.
But... hopefully I can inject some humor into the subject (yes, I will clearly state that it is satire and humor upfront). You could easily change the topic line to “Skirmishes” instead.
Voyage Estimator Tool thread
Thank you!
I find that the loudest voices against this issue seem to be the biggest offenders.
This issue is larger than anyone cares to admit.
I'd go out on a limb by saying all those players in that graph were macroing, including Captain Obvious.
🤖🤖
So players that were identified before this post are not getting banned? Why, when its clearly against ToS?
But yes, the afore players using macros should be punished in some way now! Not allow them to repeat and test DB measures since we know they're weak to begin with.
The real problem is a boring and repetitive play mode and a poor reward structure, both which encourage players to find a way to make things interesting, alleviate the tedium by automating painful aspects of the game.
I think of it the opposite. It doesn’t encourage me to spend more to go for that top finish, it gives me a defeatist attitude from the start and so I just coast and where I end up in the rankings is where I end up
The issue about macros, isn't that they impact whales, but people of all spending levels who decide to spend months of accumulated in game resources to perform well in an event.
There are two things necessary for performing well in a skirmish or galaxy event, time and accumulated resources (chrons and/or prefarmed items). Given the availability of resources from voyages and daily tasks its quite possible for a player who has been playing a while, but not spent a dime on the game to have accumulated enough resources to win an event.
The issue is that several people every week could have enough resources saved to be able to win a skirmish or galaxy event if they devoted their entire weekend (and didn't sleep), however its likely that only a few of them have the flexibility to spend almost their whole weekend tapping. Whomever chooses to spend the most time on these events is the one who should win, and are exactly whom are impacted by macros users, not the whales.
Anyone using macro like iampicard (giving advantages in voyage rewards, chrons, crew, honor) should be ashamed saying other who use macros, save chrons, and buy crew are cheating.
The problem is the game, not macros. All this cry-baby thread is going to do is get some banned while others boycott and more quit. Way to kill the game genious!
Argue for better game design, then macro use won't be a problem. I think we all agree this event type is horrible. 4 days of this grind is to much!
Nope, i don t agree with you at all and for sure i am not the only one.
Many games have grinding involved and its called effort! Ist not an issue, just because you are too lazy to grind(which is ok).
Having a macro doing all the tapping for you is cheating and excusing it with constant tapping is too much, or boring event design(even when it is), is just a cheap and a lame excuse, like its mostly the case when cheaters defend their actions(just a general note, not saying ur a cheater).
And the thinking that macros only affect whales is wrong as well, it affects everyone. F.e. If only 1 is using macros to finish top 1000; he screws 1 legit player out of the top 1000 spot and the nxt one of top 1500 and so on.
So its not just the „whales“ (which is wrong as well since, even VIP0 folks can do top 25 or better in skirmishes) affected.
So you say the macro discussion and bans will keep ppl from spending? Well its quite the opposite, i spent and will spend less cause i know i my left tapping hand can t compete and keep up with macros. So i only do a relaxed top 1000 finish and out. And i know many that do the same for the very same reason.
Ive been saying that for months now, I am not condoning cheating, but apparently it is going to happen regardless, so why not give people less reason to feel the need to by making the events less repetitive and more dynamic?
In truth thou, I am quite over the macro threads, Until Db listens or responds to any of them it kind of feels like walking into a wall over and over, thou I must admit the original post was well thought out and appreciate the time taken to spell it all out.
I suppose I'll just c/p my response the last time you posted basically the same thing and never responded:
https://forum.disruptorbeam.com/stt/discussion/comment/99921#Comment_99921
The best way to prevent bots is to have dynamic game play not easily quantifiable by a computer program.
Grinding isn't a skill. Having the willingness to invest an ever-growing amount of free time is. Personally, I would prefer if my results in events were reflective more of my crew and less about how much I decided to eschew my family for the weekend.
Your last sentence could not possibly have been said better.
Let me begin by thanking DB for their communique today. It is a positive first step. I look forward to seeing more progress in the coming weeks and months.
Although I agree that it's unjust to allow past macro users to go unpunished, I do understand why DB would choose to do this.
First, as I mentioned previously, the graphical evidence provided by the players only displays a small portion of the players who participated in the Event (top 50) so it would be unfair to simply punish those macro users who are a part of this group while other macro users, who were smart enough to stay out of the limelight, aren't penalized.
If DB does indeed have the tools to detect suspicious playing patterns for all players then it does make some sense that they start it this week since it just won't be the top 50 that are being scrutinized but in fact the entire player base.
Still unfair but I can see the logic in this.
I suppose DB also wanted to avoid the huge can of worms that would come from banning past macro users in terms of other players conceivably demanding compensation from previous Skirmish Events since, one could argue, that if player X was banned and his rank annulled, then other players would have finished higher in that Event and thus received more rewards. Multiply that by 5 Skirmish Events and tens of thousands of players and you can understand why DB would want to steer clear of this at all cost.
My only question about today's macro announcement is: will the community get any feedback on what actions were taken from the previous Event?
I know releasing the names of the players who were banned is not possible due to privacy issues but it would be beneficial if we could see the statistics for these measures. For example, what percentage of players were banned or how many in the top 100 were using a macro compared to the top 1000 or 5000. I believe this would go a long way to showing the community that actions are indeed being taken.
I agree with many who have stated in this thread that a better game/Event design that focuses more on player skill or crew quality would definitely be more desirable. It would not only help solve the macro issue but also make the game more entertaining.
I also agree that the discussion of macros has been beaten to death over these last 5 months but that's the thing. We've been discussing this for all this time because DB hasn't taken effective measures to deter it over this period. It's not like the problem was fixed and we're still beating the dead horse. The horse is still very much alive.
Let me also present the following question: we currently have 3 out of 4 Events (excluding Hybrids) that focus on some, if not a lot, of grinding, and players have been asking and pleading, since the launch of this game, for a better Event model, so isn't it more feasible to think that resolving the macro issue would be an easier fix than over hauling the entire game?
Finally, I'd like to thank those players who have publicly and privately supported the #STOPMACROS campaign thus far. The community's endorsement has been tremendous.
That being said, the #STOPMACROS campaign is far from over.
As I stated above, DB's announcement today was a move in the right direction. But this campaign will continue until we see clear and definitive action being taken by DB to deter macro use and punish those who use them.
As DaShanne Stokes once wrote, "Talk without the support of action means nothing."
So I urge everyone to keep displaying the tag #STOPMACROS in their in game and forum names as well as continuing to spread the word on all communication platforms where Timelines players can be found.
If we stand together, speak together and act together, we can .... will ..... #STOPMACROS
Thanks for reading.
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This. Especially when they were supposedly looking into the winner of the last skirmish for well over a month, almost 1.5 months. But it's better than nothing I guess.
Iampicard is not a macro. And how exactly does it give any advantage in "voyage rewards, chrons, crew, honor" when it clearly doesn't do it? The voyage recommendation of the program isn't even that accurate, it stacks the 2 main skills and all other skills are just an afterthought. If anything, you can manually stack the crew much better. So if anything it's a nerf of voyage time and not a boost.
100%. I'll go even further, I would prefer if my results in events were reflective more of my ability to maximize my crew and less about how much I decided to eschew my family for the weekend.
Anyone else get a chuckle out of that?
Well said.
If you have an idea about how you could make the gameplay more dynamic, why not post your suggestion in the Suggestion section of the forum.
not that it will be paid much attention to by the powers that be, might as well shout our recommendations from our local court house steps for all it's worth
I have made my attempt to be constructive, however I expect that the kind of gameplay that would be more dynamic and engaging experience is beyond what DB is willing to invest in a massive overhaul.
So it comes down to a decision of how much external assistance or taking advantage of flexibility in the game's mechanics violates your sense of fairplay. As already discussed, I don't think macros are that big of a deal, but I also see benefits to events by stopping them.
The same way removing chronitons from voyages would benefit events. However that's probably even more of an unpopular position than not banning macros, and a conversation for another time/thread (since I agreed not to "derail" this thread).
1. Voyage.
2. Have fun. If something isn't fun, don't do it.
3. Only pursue characters I care about.
4. Contribute to the fleet.
5. No more spending beyond monthly cards.
6. Have fun.
7. Voyage.
8. Have fun!
Without more in depth knowledge of their codebase, it's difficult to give actionable feedback on what they should specifically do.
In a nutshell, I'm not sure it's actually possible to salvage skirmishes within the framework of how space battles currently function. I think the easiest way would be for them to add an additional difficulty level where there is real danger of losing for those with 10/10 ships and solid crew. That way cloak and burst timing matters or else you lose your round. If the timing restrictions are significantly tightened, it would make macros significantly less effective.
What this accomplishes:
Would you recommend tickets like the arena and expeditions? Because I think you could still macro to run the first few battles in a skirmish and deliberately lose when it gets too difficult, which means you could still accrue lots of VP by running shorter skirmishes the same way it is done now. The VP increases would have to be considerable to make them worthwhile running at more difficult levels. Otherwise your idea sounds fantastic!
Check out our website to find out more:
https://wiki.tenforwardloungers.com/
What if the VP accrued for each battle, but none of it is credited to you unless you quit before you lose? If you make it all or nothing (or paying to continue), you cannot afford to leave any battle unattended.
I have to give kudos to the new owners for taking the time to listen to your customers. Please continue to listen to those that have an amazing ability to stick together. This game has the potential to become the benchmark of top games to play.
Macros in small doses for fun and not getting an edge are fine in some games. When using them to not play but win is not only an artificial win but a drag on anyone else wanting to play games against other humans. If you feel the game is just too boring with out illegal macros then perhaps start a thread with suggestions on how to make game play more enticing. Be part of the solution not part of the problem.