I think they made the effort to hide the swastika on his sleeve, and still capture the scene image. I doubt they left any insignia in as intentional disrespect.
Censorship is quite a chilling thought, especially for a subject that we must never be allowed to forget or to whitewash.
Its my understanding that Germany does not deny its past even though it has hate speech laws. Holocaust denial, for example, is not legal in Germany.
By way of comparison, Confederate symbols are widespread in the USA and many defend their placement so we can't "forget". Which would be fine except those Confederate symbols were not placed as historical reminder but rather to terrorize a minority of the US population. The US Civil War was fought over slavery but that's frequently denied by saying it was fought over state's rights.
Again it's literally right there in the wiki article, learning and art are not affected by the law. Tv and film are considered art, but video games aren't - which is obviously dumb, but I imagine the people who drew up the laws hadn't put many hours into Dragon Age (and it was probably more like Pong back then, if that), so they didn't know any better, hopefully it'll get fixed. But nobody's trying to erase history, because if you did want to erase history, you wouldn't specifically exempt history class.
Some of y’all are seriously defending a terrible episode of Star Trek featuring a goofy vampire alien dressed in a Nazi uniform as “history” that needs protecting.
I’d suggest taking a few steps back and asking why you feel so vehemently about this.
My two cents the nazis weren’t the only one to use the jolly Rodger, plenty of armies have used it even after the war, uk and us included, so saying it’s only applicable as a nazi symbol is fubar, they have censored the appropriate/important one, by the angle of the drawing, that’s good enough for me. Anyone misusing it in game well I think they will have a very short time on the game. If you see it used in that way report it and it will be dealt with swiftly I am pretty sure of that.
It’s what you use the symbol for that matters not what it is, some people might not even know that the swastika was actually a symbol of good long before the nazis got their dirty rotten mits on it.
Also this is artwork representing a tv show (an artistic medium) I am pretty sure it would be covered under that same artistic license.
[was on Sabbatical/Hiatus] Currently a trialist at Galaxy SquadronSTAY SAFE and KBO
Wow, what a bit of snokeflakery crying here. Last I checked, a tiny bit of history, a tiny bit of realism, and a coule dozen pixels never killed anybody. In fact, those who deny it and attack those who don't tend to be the problem, and are the ones doomed to repeat it.
A tiny skull and crossbones on an imaginary character in small pixel art is the biggest nothing burger we've had here in a while.
In 1605 a man called Guido Fawkes attempted to blow up the houses of parliament as a revolutionary act of the Pope following the excommunication of the monarch of the day. In memory of this important event, most precisely it's failing because Fawkes had a British government agent in his midst, we now celebrate that failure by holding bonfires.
There is also a rhyme to remember this.
We should never try to forget those difficult parts of our history.
When we do, we invite those who would seek to rewrite it back.
"Remember, remember the fifth of November.
The gunpowder,treason and plot".
Not should we erase the lingering memory of difficult periods of history.
Wow, Comment moderated ~Shan. Last I checked, a tiny bit of history, a tiny bit of realism, and a coule dozen pixels never killed anybody. In fact, those who deny it and attack those who don't tend to be the problem, and are the ones doomed to repeat it.
A tiny skull and crossbones on an imaginary character in small pixel art is the biggest nothing burger we've had here in a while.
What an incredibly rude and insensitive comment. My grandfather died in November 1945 as a recognized victim of war. This has had a huge impact on my mother, who was 4 at the time. Although I now have some friends in Germany, for a very long time my mother wanted nothing to do with Germany or Germans.
This has absolutely nothing to do with denying anything has happened; it just brings the very real trauma some people still have back to the front. And it doesn't hurt anyone to be empathic towards those feelings instead of putting them away as snowflakery.
You , sir, have earned the questionable honour of being the first to be put on my ignore list.
EDIT: I also am terribly disappointed by no less than 18 awesomes for that post.
Most anticipated character not in the game: Mr. Homn
First, all props to @easypeasy, that was doubly brilliant!
OK, so, let me just see if my 5* level 93 diplomacy hat still fits....yes, nice. OK, so I think it is safe to say that everyone here has more-or-less spoken truthfully, and many outstanding points have been made in a surprisingly civil way (well done, all). And much like the earlier thread where new forum hero @Jassada carved a beautiful path to resolution, here is my attempt.
There is a clear path whereby we can be true to history/remember history AND be respectful of those who justifiably do not need really unpleasant historical references shoved in their face, and I give it away to you all now for free because while this has been a great thread and a lot of great points have been made, I think it is time to heal the wounds.
We all know about the Nazi armband, and most know about the SS skull. What changes on this Vosk card if the tiny white skull gets replaced with a tiny portrait of, say, Mr. Bean? Or even Churchill. Or heck, just a generic emoji face? Or of that is still too much, how about just a white circle?
And with regard to the armband, why not simply replace the symbol altogether and just go with a red stripe (OMG, I can't see that adult beverage the same way ever again now!)?
The historical significance is not lost on the majority, and yet we are all spared from having that horrible chapter of human history shoved in our collective faces.
Problem solved! And now for something completely different, a man with a tape recorder up his brother's nose!
For me it's the cavalier use of the image in this game that hurts. It's not about denial of history, it's about the minimization of the impact that this image is likely to have. There are some images that should appear in a context which speaks to the gravity of the historical reality, or at the very least not minimize it. This image should not appear in the middle of a jolly game - as in "oh yay! I got my 4 Vosks. Did you get yours?"
For me it's the cavalier use of the image in this game that bites hardest. It's not about denial of history, it's about the minimization of the impact that this image is likely to have. There are some images that should appear in a context which speaks to the gravity of the historical reality. This image should not appear in the middle of a jolly game.
I don't think they have been cavalier at all with this they have not used an image where he has his hat on, protruding yet more symbols, they have instead done an angle where the armband is out of view and we are left with a lapel - a lapel that appears nothing more than a dot as I look at my phone. The only issue really i see is with the avatar, which as a compromise they perhaps could have better cropped it.
[was on Sabbatical/Hiatus] Currently a trialist at Galaxy SquadronSTAY SAFE and KBO
ITT, people with no experience of living under a Nazi regime telling a country which has "not to be such snowflakes about it" and sanctimoniously talking about not forgetting the past. I don't think many of you realise how ridiculous you sound.
ITT, people with no experience of living under a Nazi regime telling a country which has "not to be such snowflakes about it" and sanctimoniously talking about not forgetting the past. I don't think many of you realise how ridiculous you sound.
In other words you are saying it's fine to forget it happened and hide anything related to it ever occurring is that right?
Talk about that episode of Enterprise being pertinent. That does a complete disservice to those very people who suffered under that regime.
[was on Sabbatical/Hiatus] Currently a trialist at Galaxy SquadronSTAY SAFE and KBO
I'll go ahead and join the chorus of people that say that when someone raises a concern, and the first reaction is to call them a "snowflake"?
And defend and defend and defend why Nazi symbols are important to you...
Says more about you than us "snowflakes"
The problem is where do you stop with censoring. I can understand swastikas, Nazi flags etc.
But this Totenkopf was just one of the insignias in specific Nazi's unit. Should we ban every insignia from every German ww2 unit?
Should we censor iron crosses? Nazis were using iron crosses and now modern German military is using them.
Should we ban and censor anchor, crosses and every single possible insignia that Germany army or navy was using?
Should we censor and ban the German language? Nazis were using German language and hearing or reading such languages can bring some painful memories.
We all know about the Nazi armband, and most know about the SS skull. What changes on this Vosk card if the tiny white skull gets replaced with a tiny portrait of, say, Mr. Bean? Or even Churchill. Or heck, just a generic emoji face? Or of that is still too much, how about just a white circle?
I applaud the effort to play the diplomat.
I find the idea of replacing the historically accurate symbol in the artwork with Mr Bean, or even just a simple geographic shape/blob, very offensive. Because to me, that would be a lie in order to hide or deny the truth.
I did not know what the symbol meant. I was either never taught about it, I had forgotten my school history, or perhaps I have been prevented from being exposed to it as a child?
Obviously I have sympathy for everyone affected, directly/indirectly by WWII, as with any other horrendous moment in our history. But I’m more upset that we try to hide it and make it harder for people to learn of our past. They might not even be given the opportunity to feel sympathy.
Edit - Perhaps those that feel offended seeing this symbol could elaborate why? Or how their personal discomfort overtakes the need for people to be able to learn?
Context is extremely important. Such a symbol upon a man with a skinhead, covered in tattoos and holding a baseball bat would be extremely intimidating. such a symbol upon a lumpy faced character from a fictional show about flying around in space is not intimidating.
My pirate flag above would be harmless in Germany, but in Shanghai would get you beaten to death before the police could arrive and arrest you.
People are not defending the symbol, nor what it means. They are defending freedom of expression within the context of art.
I'll go ahead and join the chorus of people that say that when someone raises a concern, and the first reaction is to call them a "snowflake"?
And defend and defend and defend why Nazi symbols are important to you...
Says more about you than us "snowflakes"
Snowflake count total in this thread = 1 and it wasn't even the first post.
People questioning application of censorship = far greater than 1
I don't believe anybody has said the Nazi symbol is important to them, not unless you unjustifiably include Banjo on that one which holds sentimental family value.
If anything we are defending the right of artistic licence and the importance of learning from history nothing more and at the very least debating the question on whether it is appropriate to change a characters appearance just because people disagree with it.
I suggest not trying to derail a thread and categorise people into something they aren't.
I perhaps agree with you on one thing and that is the snowflake comment should not have been used.
[was on Sabbatical/Hiatus] Currently a trialist at Galaxy SquadronSTAY SAFE and KBO
We all know about the Nazi armband, and most know about the SS skull. What changes on this Vosk card if the tiny white skull gets replaced with a tiny portrait of, say, Mr. Bean? Or even Churchill. Or heck, just a generic emoji face? Or of that is still too much, how about just a white circle?
I applaud the effort to play the diplomat.
I find the idea of replacing the historically accurate symbol in the artwork with Mr Bean, or even just a simple geographic shape/blob, very offensive. Because to me, that would be a lie in order to hide or deny the truth.
I did not know what the symbol meant. I was either never taught about it, I had forgotten my school history, or perhaps I have been prevented from being exposed to it as a child?
Obviously I have sympathy for everyone affected, directly/indirectly by WWII, as with any other horrendous moment in our history. But I’m more upset that we try to hide it and make it harder for people to learn of our past. They might not even be given the opportunity to feel sympathy.
Edit - Perhaps those that feel offended seeing this symbol could elaborate why? Or how their personal discomfort overtakes the need for people to be able to learn?
I should have done a better job of stating that this should have been done BEFORE we saw the card. Nobody would have been the wiser, and that would be one fewer thread Shan has to close.
This is a conversation that we have to be able to have, and I'm impressed that it has stayed cordial. If we can't have this discussion in Star Trek world, where can we have it? I don't feel that voicing my discomfort about the use of a symbol in this context is censorship, though it is a request to a community to understand the impact. Hopefully it can be a discussion that helps us successfully share the planet. I would not at all mind elaborating why this image is disturbing to me (offended is the wrong word) but I'm not sure people are really curious about that?
Come on people this is just a game. The actual symbols were in the tv shows, decades apart, and nobody freaked about about them being in the contents. Why are we getting MORE offended as this passes further into history? I think this is a symptom of our first world society getting more and more distant from having any real hardships for most of us, from danger to hunger to basic survival. We seem to be looking for things to be offended by, like we need to generate conflict because our lives have so little genuine hardship.
Comments
Very well said
Exactly.
The Comment moderated. ~Shan want to erase history or talk about it as if it never happened.
Its my understanding that Germany does not deny its past even though it has hate speech laws. Holocaust denial, for example, is not legal in Germany.
By way of comparison, Confederate symbols are widespread in the USA and many defend their placement so we can't "forget". Which would be fine except those Confederate symbols were not placed as historical reminder but rather to terrorize a minority of the US population. The US Civil War was fought over slavery but that's frequently denied by saying it was fought over state's rights.
Nobody is talking about erasing or re-writing history.
And in any case, the study of history is all about re-examining, re-evaluating, and ultimately re-writing what we know about past events and people.
On second thought, never mind.
I’d suggest taking a few steps back and asking why you feel so vehemently about this.
It’s what you use the symbol for that matters not what it is, some people might not even know that the swastika was actually a symbol of good long before the nazis got their dirty rotten mits on it.
Also this is artwork representing a tv show (an artistic medium) I am pretty sure it would be covered under that same artistic license.
In 1605 a man called Guido Fawkes attempted to blow up the houses of parliament as a revolutionary act of the Pope following the excommunication of the monarch of the day. In memory of this important event, most precisely it's failing because Fawkes had a British government agent in his midst, we now celebrate that failure by holding bonfires.
There is also a rhyme to remember this.
We should never try to forget those difficult parts of our history.
When we do, we invite those who would seek to rewrite it back.
"Remember, remember the fifth of November.
The gunpowder,treason and plot".
Not should we erase the lingering memory of difficult periods of history.
What an incredibly rude and insensitive comment. My grandfather died in November 1945 as a recognized victim of war. This has had a huge impact on my mother, who was 4 at the time. Although I now have some friends in Germany, for a very long time my mother wanted nothing to do with Germany or Germans.
This has absolutely nothing to do with denying anything has happened; it just brings the very real trauma some people still have back to the front. And it doesn't hurt anyone to be empathic towards those feelings instead of putting them away as snowflakery.
You , sir, have earned the questionable honour of being the first to be put on my ignore list.
EDIT: I also am terribly disappointed by no less than 18 awesomes for that post.
First, all props to @easypeasy, that was doubly brilliant!
OK, so, let me just see if my 5* level 93 diplomacy hat still fits....yes, nice. OK, so I think it is safe to say that everyone here has more-or-less spoken truthfully, and many outstanding points have been made in a surprisingly civil way (well done, all). And much like the earlier thread where new forum hero @Jassada carved a beautiful path to resolution, here is my attempt.
There is a clear path whereby we can be true to history/remember history AND be respectful of those who justifiably do not need really unpleasant historical references shoved in their face, and I give it away to you all now for free because while this has been a great thread and a lot of great points have been made, I think it is time to heal the wounds.
We all know about the Nazi armband, and most know about the SS skull. What changes on this Vosk card if the tiny white skull gets replaced with a tiny portrait of, say, Mr. Bean? Or even Churchill. Or heck, just a generic emoji face? Or of that is still too much, how about just a white circle?
And with regard to the armband, why not simply replace the symbol altogether and just go with a red stripe (OMG, I can't see that adult beverage the same way ever again now!)?
The historical significance is not lost on the majority, and yet we are all spared from having that horrible chapter of human history shoved in our collective faces.
Problem solved! And now for something completely different, a man with a tape recorder up his brother's nose!
I don't think they have been cavalier at all with this they have not used an image where he has his hat on, protruding yet more symbols, they have instead done an angle where the armband is out of view and we are left with a lapel - a lapel that appears nothing more than a dot as I look at my phone. The only issue really i see is with the avatar, which as a compromise they perhaps could have better cropped it.
But this isn't?
Despite the fact that both images depict a group mostly notable for killing countless innocent civilians and enslaving people.
In other words you are saying it's fine to forget it happened and hide anything related to it ever occurring is that right?
Talk about that episode of Enterprise being pertinent. That does a complete disservice to those very people who suffered under that regime.
There are so many layers to this context.
I'll go ahead and join the chorus of people that say that when someone raises a concern, and the first reaction is to call them a "snowflake"?
And defend and defend and defend why Nazi symbols are important to you...
Says more about you than us "snowflakes"
The problem is where do you stop with censoring. I can understand swastikas, Nazi flags etc.
But this Totenkopf was just one of the insignias in specific Nazi's unit. Should we ban every insignia from every German ww2 unit?
Should we censor iron crosses? Nazis were using iron crosses and now modern German military is using them.
Should we ban and censor anchor, crosses and every single possible insignia that Germany army or navy was using?
Should we censor and ban the German language? Nazis were using German language and hearing or reading such languages can bring some painful memories.
I applaud the effort to play the diplomat.
I find the idea of replacing the historically accurate symbol in the artwork with Mr Bean, or even just a simple geographic shape/blob, very offensive. Because to me, that would be a lie in order to hide or deny the truth.
I did not know what the symbol meant. I was either never taught about it, I had forgotten my school history, or perhaps I have been prevented from being exposed to it as a child?
Obviously I have sympathy for everyone affected, directly/indirectly by WWII, as with any other horrendous moment in our history. But I’m more upset that we try to hide it and make it harder for people to learn of our past. They might not even be given the opportunity to feel sympathy.
Edit - Perhaps those that feel offended seeing this symbol could elaborate why? Or how their personal discomfort overtakes the need for people to be able to learn?
My pirate flag above would be harmless in Germany, but in Shanghai would get you beaten to death before the police could arrive and arrest you.
People are not defending the symbol, nor what it means. They are defending freedom of expression within the context of art.
It's a game folks. But people are free to have concerns about such symbols and voice them.
Very curious how the people saying "snowflakes" are censoring to argue about censoring
Snowflake count total in this thread = 1 and it wasn't even the first post.
People questioning application of censorship = far greater than 1
I don't believe anybody has said the Nazi symbol is important to them, not unless you unjustifiably include Banjo on that one which holds sentimental family value.
If anything we are defending the right of artistic licence and the importance of learning from history nothing more and at the very least debating the question on whether it is appropriate to change a characters appearance just because people disagree with it.
I suggest not trying to derail a thread and categorise people into something they aren't.
I perhaps agree with you on one thing and that is the snowflake comment should not have been used.
I should have done a better job of stating that this should have been done BEFORE we saw the card. Nobody would have been the wiser, and that would be one fewer thread Shan has to close.