This has been a tremendous thread, well done everybody...
....and according to memory alpha Winn did all of this in JUST 14 EPISODES!!
is that a testament to great writing, acting, or both?
Both, definitely. I was surprised to realize she was only in fourteen episodes. I was also surprised that she wasn't even in the fourth season at all, which I never consciously realized, and which surely contributes to why we have a lot of gaps to fill in for ourselves about what she actually did as Kai on a daily basis. But more than all of this, I was agog when I read the following:
Before Louise Fletcher was cast as Winn, DS9 Producer Robert Hewitt Wolfe had a very different notion of who would be playing the part. "My archetype was Sandy Duncan," Wolfe related. "I wanted someone you just love and when you look at them, you think what a nice, trustworthy person they are and underneath, they're a rotten, scheming, selfish person." (Star Trek: Communicator issue 112, p. 67)
Y'all, Sandy Duncan was my first ever crush. Not, mind you, real life Sandy Duncan; animated Sandy Duncan from The New Scooby-Doo Movies episode "Sandy Duncan's Jekyll and Hyde". Wolfe didn't say he wanted Duncan herself; just that she was the archetype he had in mind. But now I really want a non-canon Alternate Winn based on Duncan's likeness added to this game and if you'll excuse me, I have a Make It So! petition thread to start.
I struggle with med on Winn in any capacity, the only people she was ever kind or compassionate to were Unnamed Bajoran Worshipper #3 and #8, and Dukat that one time he catfished her to get into the Fire Caves.
I cannot disagree with that, but I think there is just a base level of Med (aka spiritual healing) that comes with the gold hat. For example, when she leads the Bajorans in prayer on the Promenade while Pah Wraith Jake and Prophet Kira are battling. The average Bajoran who didn't know her probably drew some spiritual strength from her, but I do agree with you which is why I set the proficiency score the way I did, to reflect the WIDE range in actual spiritual assistance somebody was likely to receive!
I struggle with med on Winn in any capacity, the only people she was ever kind or compassionate to were Unnamed Bajoran Worshipper #3 and #8, and Dukat that one time he catfished her to get into the Fire Caves.
I cannot disagree with that, but I think there is just a base level of Med (aka spiritual healing) that comes with the gold hat. For example, when she leads the Bajorans in prayer on the Promenade while Pah Wraith Jake and Prophet Kira are battling. The average Bajoran who didn't know her probably drew some spiritual strength from her, but I do agree with you which is why I set the proficiency score the way I did, to reflect the WIDE range in actual spiritual assistance somebody was likely to receive!
So here's something to contemplate that would not have occurred to me at the time DS9 was on the air. How much of it is that the average Bajoran just didn't know any better, and how much of it is that the average Bajoran did know enough about Winn's character to be appalled by her...and just didn't care? How many willfully overlooked and downplayed whatever they didn't want to deal with because they liked having an authoritarian figure draped in gold who ran roughshod over everyone else? How many weren't fazed by her conniving hypocrisy because they felt she was the one to "Make Bajor Great Again"?
Agreed. I loved to hate this character on DS9. She is an excellent foil for Sisko. She is the Nurse Rachett of the 24th Century! One could not help but root for her downfall.
“A committee is a cul-de-sac, down which good ideas are lured and quietly strangled.” —Mark TwainMEMBER: [BoB] Barrel of Bloodwine... We are recruiting and putting the “curv” in scurvy! Best Event Finish: #3 Honor Debt: Inconceivable...Honor Bank Account: Slowly building...
I struggle with med on Winn in any capacity, the only people she was ever kind or compassionate to were Unnamed Bajoran Worshipper #3 and #8, and Dukat that one time he catfished her to get into the Fire Caves.
I cannot disagree with that, but I think there is just a base level of Med (aka spiritual healing) that comes with the gold hat. For example, when she leads the Bajorans in prayer on the Promenade while Pah Wraith Jake and Prophet Kira are battling. The average Bajoran who didn't know her probably drew some spiritual strength from her, but I do agree with you which is why I set the proficiency score the way I did, to reflect the WIDE range in actual spiritual assistance somebody was likely to receive!
So here's something to contemplate that would not have occurred to me at the time DS9 was on the air. How much of it is that the average Bajoran just didn't know any better, and how much of it is that the average Bajoran did know enough about Winn's character to be appalled by her...and just didn't care? How many willfully overlooked and downplayed whatever they didn't want to deal with because they liked having an authoritarian figure draped in gold who ran roughshod over everyone else? How many weren't fazed by her conniving hypocrisy because they felt she was the one to "Make Bajor Great Again"?
There is no way to know for sure, but let us take a real world example (I'll avoid religion and politics!): Tiger Woods.
15 years ago most of the planet knew of him, and millions around the world cheered for the man who was absolutely destroying golf records with that larger-than-life smile and intense emotional exclamations. Those millions of people were in some way positively impact by Tiger Woods.
But those close to him knew a different Tiger, the man who destroyed his family with his addictions and whatnot, to say nothing of his fight with his caddie and swing coach. Those close enough to him to see him and his day-to-day actions probably had a much different view of him based on behaviors and actions his millions of fans (at the time) had no clue about.
So to answer your question, I believe that most Bajorans (keep in mind, we're talking about an entire planet here) had no idea what she was really like.
Oh boy... this is veering so close to a dangerous edge, so I’m going to beat Shan to saying it, let’s leave all non-24th century politics outside
I do appreciate that explanation though, and I think the analogy of Woods or really any “Cultural Figure” could apply, and therefore the argument for Med works due to her office and role on Bajor. I think the belly aching if Kai Winn suddenly rivaled Defensive and Mirror Phlox for Gauntlet Med may not be worth the nuanced explanation, but I think your point is very valid @ByloBand & @Travis S McClain
I struggle with med on Winn in any capacity, the only people she was ever kind or compassionate to were Unnamed Bajoran Worshipper #3 and #8, and Dukat that one time he catfished her to get into the Fire Caves.
I cannot disagree with that, but I think there is just a base level of Med (aka spiritual healing) that comes with the gold hat. For example, when she leads the Bajorans in prayer on the Promenade while Pah Wraith Jake and Prophet Kira are battling. The average Bajoran who didn't know her probably drew some spiritual strength from her, but I do agree with you which is why I set the proficiency score the way I did, to reflect the WIDE range in actual spiritual assistance somebody was likely to receive!
So here's something to contemplate that would not have occurred to me at the time DS9 was on the air. How much of it is that the average Bajoran just didn't know any better, and how much of it is that the average Bajoran did know enough about Winn's character to be appalled by her...and just didn't care? How many willfully overlooked and downplayed whatever they didn't want to deal with because they liked having an authoritarian figure draped in gold who ran roughshod over everyone else? How many weren't fazed by her conniving hypocrisy because they felt she was the one to "Make Bajor Great Again"?
There is no way to know for sure, but let us take a real world example (I'll avoid religion and politics!): Tiger Woods.
15 years ago most of the planet knew of him, and millions around the world cheered for the man who was absolutely destroying golf records with that larger-than-life smile and intense emotional exclamations. Those millions of people were in some way positively impact by Tiger Woods.
But those close to him knew a different Tiger, the man who destroyed his family with his addictions and whatnot, to say nothing of his fight with his caddie and swing coach. Those close enough to him to see him and his day-to-day actions probably had a much different view of him based on behaviors and actions his millions of fans (at the time) had no clue about.
So to answer your question, I believe that most Bajorans (keep in mind, we're talking about an entire planet here) had no idea what she was really like.
It's curious to look at Kai Winn by avoiding religion and politics, since she was smack dab in the middle of that Venn diagram, but I can understand trying to avoid too many derailments. It's a subject that fascinates me, but it isn't one I need to explore further here. (Hit me up privately, though, if you'd like!) I do think, though, that the very question itself is a testament to the brilliance of DS9, and why it remains relevant all these years later. They did a fantastic job of asking questions about the world, and of showing us what some of our world looked like, could look like, and should look like.
“They did a fantastic job of asking questions about the world, and of showing us what some of our world looked like, could look like, and should look like.”
Brilliantly put, I wholeheartedly agree this is DS9s true strength. As distasteful as Winn was, I don’t think she was evil, nor do I feel Weyoun, Dukat or the Founder were evil. They exist in a lot of morally grey shades, but they all had stories that made them deeper than just being a “Bad Guy” like Shinzon or Duras. The most evil character on DS9, in my opinion, was Brunt (not including Kosst Amojin, the Wraiths vs Prophets debate would be a fun one though (or Mega? PLEASE), but seems deeply tied to Angels and Demons and might be a touch sensitive for open forum). Brunt was the only character that actively sought to hurt anyone over and over. Maybe next week we can all come back together and have a deep dive on Brunt or Duras. I’d really enjoy seeing this turn into a regular affair, so many great people on this forum to debate with. “Duras, Son of a Traitor” is also glaringly missing, maybe he can be next.
“They did a fantastic job of asking questions about the world, and of showing us what some of our world looked like, could look like, and should look like.”
Brilliantly put, I wholeheartedly agree this is DS9s true strength. As distasteful as Winn was, I don’t think she was evil, nor do I feel Weyoun, Dukat or the Founder were evil. They exist in a lot of morally grey shades, but they all had stories that made them deeper than just being a “Bad Guy” like Shinzon or Duras. The most evil character on DS9, in my opinion, was Brunt (not including Kosst Amojin, the Wraiths vs Prophets debate would be a fun one though (or Mega? PLEASE), but seems deeply tied to Angels and Demons and might be a touch sensitive for open forum). Brunt was the only character that actively sought to hurt anyone over and over. Maybe next week we can all come back together and have a deep dive on Brunt or Duras. I’d really enjoy seeing this turn into a regular affair, so many great people on this forum to debate with. “Duras, Son of a Traitor” is also glaringly missing, maybe he can be next.
I have often thought about how odd it is that we still don't have Duras. At some point, we really ought to get him, as well as Toral, I suppose. They're not important enough to me to campaign for them, but I'll sign someone else's petition. As for whether Dukat was truly evil, I defer to the Captain:
"Sometimes life seems so complicated, nothing is truly good or truly evil. Everything seems to be a shade of grey. And then you spend some time with a man like Dukat, and you realize that there is such a thing as truly evil."
“They did a fantastic job of asking questions about the world, and of showing us what some of our world looked like, could look like, and should look like.”
Brilliantly put, I wholeheartedly agree this is DS9s true strength. As distasteful as Winn was, I don’t think she was evil, nor do I feel Weyoun, Dukat or the Founder were evil. They exist in a lot of morally grey shades, but they all had stories that made them deeper than just being a “Bad Guy” like Shinzon or Duras. The most evil character on DS9, in my opinion, was Brunt (not including Kosst Amojin, the Wraiths vs Prophets debate would be a fun one though (or Mega? PLEASE), but seems deeply tied to Angels and Demons and might be a touch sensitive for open forum). Brunt was the only character that actively sought to hurt anyone over and over. Maybe next week we can all come back together and have a deep dive on Brunt or Duras. I’d really enjoy seeing this turn into a regular affair, so many great people on this forum to debate with. “Duras, Son of a Traitor” is also glaringly missing, maybe he can be next.
I have often thought about how odd it is that we still don't have Duras. At some point, we really ought to get him, as well as Toral, I suppose. They're not important enough to me to campaign for them, but I'll sign someone else's petition. As for whether Dukat was truly evil, I defer to the Captain:
"Sometimes life seems so complicated, nothing is truly good or truly evil. Everything seems to be a shade of grey. And then you spend some time with a man like Dukat, and you realize that there is such a thing as truly evil."
The thing about Dukat that made him so dangerous is that despite all of his frightening behavior, he seems to have a legitimate affinity for the Bajoran people and saw himself as a father figure rather than a brutal despot. That’s what’s sneaky about his brand of evil - he thinks he’s doing people a favor when committing atrocities, and is deeply hurt when they respond with what anyone else would consider a normal reaction.
Y'ALL. I started a Crohn's flare on Sunday and I've been hopped up on Prednisone all week and I'm not sleeping properly and anyway, I have two words for you:
I'd go with high security on Winn because of that time she went into a jungle and singlehandedly killed the predator.... wait.... I think I need to rewatch that movie.
I can't recall any scenes with Winn and Garak, now there would have been an interesting bottle episode.
DS9 really gave Trek a richer set of characters than before, almost by necessity given the restrictions from TNG with regards to how Starfleet members should act. It's a little like Gaiman's Sandman in that regard.
It's a shame that TV then wasn't more like today, if any Trek series offered a wealth of potential spin-off series' it was DS9.
“They did a fantastic job of asking questions about the world, and of showing us what some of our world looked like, could look like, and should look like.”
Brilliantly put, I wholeheartedly agree this is DS9s true strength. As distasteful as Winn was, I don’t think she was evil, nor do I feel Weyoun, Dukat or the Founder were evil. They exist in a lot of morally grey shades, but they all had stories that made them deeper than just being a “Bad Guy” like Shinzon or Duras. The most evil character on DS9, in my opinion, was Brunt (not including Kosst Amojin, the Wraiths vs Prophets debate would be a fun one though (or Mega? PLEASE), but seems deeply tied to Angels and Demons and might be a touch sensitive for open forum). Brunt was the only character that actively sought to hurt anyone over and over. Maybe next week we can all come back together and have a deep dive on Brunt or Duras. I’d really enjoy seeing this turn into a regular affair, so many great people on this forum to debate with. “Duras, Son of a Traitor” is also glaringly missing, maybe he can be next.
I have often thought about how odd it is that we still don't have Duras. At some point, we really ought to get him, as well as Toral, I suppose. They're not important enough to me to campaign for them, but I'll sign someone else's petition. As for whether Dukat was truly evil, I defer to the Captain:
"Sometimes life seems so complicated, nothing is truly good or truly evil. Everything seems to be a shade of grey. And then you spend some time with a man like Dukat, and you realize that there is such a thing as truly evil."
The thing about Dukat that made him so dangerous is that despite all of his frightening behavior, he seems to have a legitimate affinity for the Bajoran people and saw himself as a father figure rather than a brutal despot. That’s what’s sneaky about his brand of evil - he thinks he’s doing people a favor when committing atrocities, and is deeply hurt when they respond with what anyone else would consider a normal reaction.
I was a pretty big fan of Dukat until season 7. Up until then, he was loyal to Cardassia first. When he gave that up, it ruined the character for me.
I feel kind of the same way about Winn. It was like the writers wanted an epic ending so badly that they ruined Dukat and Winn to make it happen. They both acted subtly against Sisko for six seasons. They maintained their positions (as best they could) and their followers while working somewhat behind the scenes. But season 7 just blew all that up.
I try to forget that the whole thread even happened. The ending with Sisko, Dukat and Winn just doesn't do anything for me. Sorry if I'm raining on the parade, but that's just the way I see it.
To the comment about the non-bridge-crew stealing the show, aside from the O'Brien-Bashir bromance, I agree. Quark, Garak, Dukat, Weyoun, Vic Fontaine... So many great characters.
“They did a fantastic job of asking questions about the world, and of showing us what some of our world looked like, could look like, and should look like.”
Brilliantly put, I wholeheartedly agree this is DS9s true strength. As distasteful as Winn was, I don’t think she was evil, nor do I feel Weyoun, Dukat or the Founder were evil. They exist in a lot of morally grey shades, but they all had stories that made them deeper than just being a “Bad Guy” like Shinzon or Duras. The most evil character on DS9, in my opinion, was Brunt (not including Kosst Amojin, the Wraiths vs Prophets debate would be a fun one though (or Mega? PLEASE), but seems deeply tied to Angels and Demons and might be a touch sensitive for open forum). Brunt was the only character that actively sought to hurt anyone over and over. Maybe next week we can all come back together and have a deep dive on Brunt or Duras. I’d really enjoy seeing this turn into a regular affair, so many great people on this forum to debate with. “Duras, Son of a Traitor” is also glaringly missing, maybe he can be next.
I have often thought about how odd it is that we still don't have Duras. At some point, we really ought to get him, as well as Toral, I suppose. They're not important enough to me to campaign for them, but I'll sign someone else's petition. As for whether Dukat was truly evil, I defer to the Captain:
"Sometimes life seems so complicated, nothing is truly good or truly evil. Everything seems to be a shade of grey. And then you spend some time with a man like Dukat, and you realize that there is such a thing as truly evil."
The thing about Dukat that made him so dangerous is that despite all of his frightening behavior, he seems to have a legitimate affinity for the Bajoran people and saw himself as a father figure rather than a brutal despot. That’s what’s sneaky about his brand of evil - he thinks he’s doing people a favor when committing atrocities, and is deeply hurt when they respond with what anyone else would consider a normal reaction.
I was a pretty big fan of Dukat until season 7. Up until then, he was loyal to Cardassia first. When he gave that up, it ruined the character for me.
I feel kind of the same way about Winn. It was like the writers wanted an epic ending so badly that they ruined Dukat and Winn to make it happen. They both acted subtly against Sisko for six seasons. They maintained their positions (as best they could) and their followers while working somewhat behind the scenes. But season 7 just blew all that up.
I try to forget that the whole thread even happened. The ending with Sisko, Dukat and Winn just doesn't do anything for me. Sorry if I'm raining on the parade, but that's just the way I see it.
To the comment about the non-bridge-crew stealing the show, aside from the O'Brien-Bashir bromance, I agree. Quark, Garak, Dukat, Weyoun, Vic Fontaine... So many great characters.
Dukat descended into madness after Ziyal’s death, and once he got over the initial shock from that tragedy he ended up dragging Winn down with him. Winn always had a tenuous relationship with the Prophets at best that was exposed by Sisko being the Emissary and having multiple direct interactions with them. Years of pent-up frustration with the Prophets plus the shocking revelation that they would allow the butcher of her people during the Occupation find his way into her bed caused her to snap.
I’m not saying they couldn’t have found a better way to end that part of the storyline, just that I get what they were going for and thought it made sense.
I can't recall any scenes with Winn and Garak, now there would have been an interesting bottle episode.
DS9 really gave Trek a richer set of characters than before, almost by necessity given the restrictions from TNG with regards to how Starfleet members should act. It's a little like Gaiman's Sandman in that regard.
It's a shame that TV then wasn't more like today, if any Trek series offered a wealth of potential spin-off series' it was DS9.
Dukat is an amazing depiction of the horrible, senseless and out of character choices that PTSD can bring into your life. Post Ziyal, Dukat’s story became something that I struggled with at times personally because it hit close to home. He went alone, bucked help and friends (and really, Damar was his best friend in many ways, and he was the murderer). I know mental health was not the focus of DS9, or much of the 90s, but Dukat was a Trojan horse for unchecked depression and trauma. His authoritarian nature created a true monster, but I find myself not blaming him for being unhinged after Ziyal’s death. He trusted Sisko and moreso Kira to keep her safe, and those wires were all terribly crossed afterward.
@Travis S McClain I know much about crohns, and you have my deepest sympathies. I hope your flare passes quickly. As for Mirror Winn, I imagine she would be not unlike South Park’s depiction of Mirror Cartman (if you don’t follow SP, Cartman is a miserable nasty person and his Mirror version was kind and thoughtful, with the Spock goatee of course, and the other boys all liked him much better). Strong Med, Dip and a real smile, basically Bareil Antos, but useable for more than just being an ice block. I love the idea, just as much as I loved Keiko being a torturer, even if it wasn’t much of a flip for her.
I was a pretty big fan of Dukat until season 7. Up until then, he was loyal to Cardassia first. When he gave that up, it ruined the character for me.
I'm not sure I agree with that reading of Dukat. He was loyal to Cardassia, but only the one that existed in his mind, as best demonstrated in this exchange from "Return to Grace":
DUKAT: There was a time when the mere mention of my race inspired fear. And now… we're a beaten people. Afraid to fight back because we're afraid to lose what little is left.
KIRA: That's not the Cardassians I know.
DUKAT: What Cardassians? Don't you see, Major? They're paralyzed. They're beaten and defeated. I am the only Cardassian left, and if no one else will stand against the Klingons, I will.
Something of curiosity for me is just how important Dukat had even been during the Occupation. Terok Nor was a valuable facility, but he answered to Legate Kell, who didn't even like or support him. He saw Bajor as his own personal fiefdom, but wasn't he essentially just a middle manager of one planet in the grand scheme of things?
Dukat is an amazing depiction of the horrible, senseless and out of character choices that PTSD can bring into your life. Post Ziyal, Dukat’s story became something that I struggled with at times personally because it hit close to home. He went alone, bucked help and friends (and really, Damar was his best friend in many ways, and he was the murderer). I know mental health was not the focus of DS9, or much of the 90s, but Dukat was a Trojan horse for unchecked depression and trauma. His authoritarian nature created a true monster, but I find myself not blaming him for being unhinged after Ziyal’s death. He trusted Sisko and moreso Kira to keep her safe, and those wires were all terribly crossed afterward.
Went I went through DS9 in its entirety in 2015, I was also going through a severe depressive episode. In fact, I was in an outpatient program while watching it, and I had to suspend my viewing of the last few episodes because of a week of inpatient treatment. I was hypersensitive to all the mental health issues that ran throughout the series, and there are a lot. I wanted to write an essay at the time, but wasn't in the right state of mind to compose anything worth reading. And to bring us back to Kai Winn, I think it's important to remember that she, too, had been strongly affected by the Occupation. She most explicitly articulated that in this rebuke of Kira in "Rapture":
Those of you who were in the Resistance, you're all the same. You think you're the only ones who fought the Cardassians, that you saved Bajor single-handedly. Perhaps you forget, Major, the Cardassians arrested any Bajoran found to be teaching the word of the Prophets. I was in a Cardassian prison camp for five years, and I can remember each and every beating I suffered. And while you had your weapons to protect you, all I had was my faith... and my courage. Walk with the Prophets, child... I know I will.
@Travis S McClain I know much about crohns, and you have my deepest sympathies. I hope your flare passes quickly. As for Mirror Winn, I imagine she would be not unlike South Park’s depiction of Mirror Cartman (if you don’t follow SP, Cartman is a miserable nasty person and his Mirror version was kind and thoughtful, with the Spock goatee of course, and the other boys all liked him much better). Strong Med, Dip and a real smile, basically Bareil Antos, but useable for more than just being an ice block. I love the idea, just as much as I loved Keiko being a torturer, even if it wasn’t much of a flip for her.
Thanks. I'll be fine in a few more days, I'm sure. Our Winn clung to Bajoran religion, but during the Occupation it had been her coping mechanism. Afterwards, it was her path to power. If Mirror Winn hadn't been subjugated and in need of that coping mechanism, and if she had been as ignored by the Mirror Prophets as ours, would she even have been interested in the Bajoran clergy? What if instead she had been drawn to, say, the Klingon religious culture and gone to Borath?
Megalomania was always at Dukat’s core, but I think his name rang with fear and recognition commonly among Bajorans on the show, enough for me to suspect he earned that notoriety by being bigger or badder than normal middle management. I picture him on the level of Joseph Mengele or Elsa Ehrich in Bajoran history, not quite the aggressor or instigator, but an unchecked element of cruelty allowed to run amuck. I may need to amend my previous comment about Dukat, based on that deduction, he goes beyond morally grey and into evil for me, at least Occupation era Dukat. His behavior with Kira Meru and Thrax/Odo does show him as merciless even amongst Cardassians.
I'm not sure I agree with that reading of Dukat. He was loyal to Cardassia, but only the one that existed in his mind, as best demonstrated in this exchange from "Return to Grace":
DUKAT: There was a time when the mere mention of my race inspired fear. And now… we're a beaten people. Afraid to fight back because we're afraid to lose what little is left.
KIRA: That's not the Cardassians I know.
DUKAT: What Cardassians? Don't you see, Major? They're paralyzed. They're beaten and defeated. I am the only Cardassian left, and if no one else will stand against the Klingons, I will.
Wanting Cardassia restored to what he perceived to be their former glory made him no less loyal. At one point, he was willing to kill Ziyal, himself. It was his perceived duty. Then he basically lost Cardassia. Then, having only Ziyal left, he lost her too. I get that he snapped. But the cult and making a deal with the Pah Wraiths was too far for me.
That speech you quoted by Winn is one of the moments I truly feel sympathy for her. I agree wholeheartedly that there are deep, serious themes buried throughout the series, and I would love to read that essay if you ever decide to write it.
I work as a massage therapist, and last week a newer client of mine, who is around 90 years old, casually mentioned remembering the night the Nazis came and took her father. It was jarring, and it was horrifying to have something so dark just casually flow into conversation, and it served as a reminder that events like that never heal. Winn did a great service reminding the audience there was more than just the armed Resistance, there were heroes elsewhere too. I’m still honestly quite rattled by that moment, and this mornings chat has help me organize those thoughts a little better. Thank you for that.
I'm not sure I agree with that reading of Dukat. He was loyal to Cardassia, but only the one that existed in his mind, as best demonstrated in this exchange from "Return to Grace":
DUKAT: There was a time when the mere mention of my race inspired fear. And now… we're a beaten people. Afraid to fight back because we're afraid to lose what little is left.
KIRA: That's not the Cardassians I know.
DUKAT: What Cardassians? Don't you see, Major? They're paralyzed. They're beaten and defeated. I am the only Cardassian left, and if no one else will stand against the Klingons, I will.
Wanting Cardassia restored to what he perceived to be their former glory made him no less loyal. At one point, he was willing to kill Ziyal, himself. It was his perceived duty. Then he basically lost Cardassia. Then, having only Ziyal left, he lost her too. I get that he snapped. But the cult and making a deal with the Pah Wraiths was too far for me.
The cult allowed him to have “his” Bajorans back, but I agree, it was a stretch at best to get to the point of his possession and unearthing of the Pahwraiths. I think in that deepest grief, he could have gone straight to Kosst Amojin and given himself over as a vessel of revenge and the story may have flowed better, but the idea he needed Bajoran acceptance and veneration of himself does make the cult idea work. I could see both sides, but absolutely understand where you’re coming from.
I'm not sure I agree with that reading of Dukat. He was loyal to Cardassia, but only the one that existed in his mind, as best demonstrated in this exchange from "Return to Grace":
DUKAT: There was a time when the mere mention of my race inspired fear. And now… we're a beaten people. Afraid to fight back because we're afraid to lose what little is left.
KIRA: That's not the Cardassians I know.
DUKAT: What Cardassians? Don't you see, Major? They're paralyzed. They're beaten and defeated. I am the only Cardassian left, and if no one else will stand against the Klingons, I will.
Wanting Cardassia restored to what he perceived to be their former glory made him no less loyal. At one point, he was willing to kill Ziyal, himself. It was his perceived duty. Then he basically lost Cardassia. Then, having only Ziyal left, he lost her too. I get that he snapped. But the cult and making a deal with the Pah Wraiths was too far for me.
I would argue that it wasn't strictly Cardassia's former glory that he wanted to restore, but rather the Cardassia he had bought into. He wanted a Cardassia that was feared and respected because that meant he was feared and respected--which is what he was obsessed with wanting from the Bajorans.
The death of Ziyal was clearly and understandably difficult for him, yes, but I don't think that was what truly pushed him over the edge. When he hashes out what had been gnawing at him with Sisko, he scarcely even talks about that. It's his rejection. He had suffered a series of indignities from the Cardassians--despite being their self-appointed savior. His loyalty had not been reciprocated, and eventually, the spell broke. The Dominion had discarded him, leaving him to the Federation. His final bridge with Cardassia had been burned. That only left him with his warped expectation of fear-based respect and loyalty from the Bajorans. For me, that all tracks.
That speech you quoted by Winn is one of the moments I truly feel sympathy for her. I agree wholeheartedly that there are deep, serious themes buried throughout the series, and I would love to read that essay if you ever decide to write it.
I work as a massage therapist, and last week a newer client of mine, who is around 90 years old, casually mentioned remembering the night the Nazis came and took her father. It was jarring, and it was horrifying to have something so dark just casually flow into conversation, and it served as a reminder that events like that never heal. Winn did a great service reminding the audience there was more than just the armed Resistance, there were heroes elsewhere too. I’m still honestly quite rattled by that moment, and this mornings chat has help me organize those thoughts a little better. Thank you for that.
Wow. That had to have been a powerful, solemn, and humbling moment for you. Hell, I got chills just reading about it secondhand.
I was a pretty big fan of Dukat until season 7. Up until then, he was loyal to Cardassia first. When he gave that up, it ruined the character for me.
I feel kind of the same way about Winn. It was like the writers wanted an epic ending so badly that they ruined Dukat and Winn to make it happen. They both acted subtly against Sisko for six seasons. They maintained their positions (as best they could) and their followers while working somewhat behind the scenes. But season 7 just blew all that up.
I try to forget that the whole thread even happened. The ending with Sisko, Dukat and Winn just doesn't do anything for me. Sorry if I'm raining on the parade, but that's just the way I see it.
To the comment about the non-bridge-crew stealing the show, aside from the O'Brien-Bashir bromance, I agree. Quark, Garak, Dukat, Weyoun, Vic Fontaine... So many great characters.
He was only ever really Dukat first. Dukat is a narcissist, believing himself a good man, and following from that all his actions are good and those who oppose them are therefore bad, and reacts with hatred with those who reject his perceived good deeds.
He abandoned his people repeatedly when they didn't agree with him - siding with the Detapa Council against the Cardassian Military when it suited him to do so, abandoning them when they didn't agree with fighting the Klingons and even selling his own people out to the Dominion in order to satisfy his view of how things should be.
It's why he wanted the Bajorans to see him as a father, meting out tough love and completely unable to see why they viewed his actions as atrocities.
Thanks. I'll be fine in a few more days, I'm sure. Our Winn clung to Bajoran religion, but during the Occupation it had been her coping mechanism. Afterwards, it was her path to power. If Mirror Winn hadn't been subjugated and in need of that coping mechanism, and if she had been as ignored by the Mirror Prophets as ours, would she even have been interested in the Bajoran clergy? What if instead she had been drawn to, say, the Klingon religious culture and gone to Borath?
Mirror Winn is in the DS9 novels, there'll be something on her at Memory Beta.
But Timelines offer a lot of possibilities for her, given how hollow her belief in the Prophets was, there's one timeline where she maybe accepted the Founders as Gods and willingly brought Bajor into the Dominion and ruled like Dukat.
Only she'd be worse. She'd recall how her faith helped her through the Occupation, and know that breaking the spirit of those who believed in the the Prophets would require more than the violence of the Cardassians.
Comments
Both, definitely. I was surprised to realize she was only in fourteen episodes. I was also surprised that she wasn't even in the fourth season at all, which I never consciously realized, and which surely contributes to why we have a lot of gaps to fill in for ourselves about what she actually did as Kai on a daily basis. But more than all of this, I was agog when I read the following:
Y'all, Sandy Duncan was my first ever crush. Not, mind you, real life Sandy Duncan; animated Sandy Duncan from The New Scooby-Doo Movies episode "Sandy Duncan's Jekyll and Hyde". Wolfe didn't say he wanted Duncan herself; just that she was the archetype he had in mind. But now I really want a non-canon Alternate Winn based on Duncan's likeness added to this game and if you'll excuse me, I have a Make It So! petition thread to start.
I cannot disagree with that, but I think there is just a base level of Med (aka spiritual healing) that comes with the gold hat. For example, when she leads the Bajorans in prayer on the Promenade while Pah Wraith Jake and Prophet Kira are battling. The average Bajoran who didn't know her probably drew some spiritual strength from her, but I do agree with you which is why I set the proficiency score the way I did, to reflect the WIDE range in actual spiritual assistance somebody was likely to receive!
So here's something to contemplate that would not have occurred to me at the time DS9 was on the air. How much of it is that the average Bajoran just didn't know any better, and how much of it is that the average Bajoran did know enough about Winn's character to be appalled by her...and just didn't care? How many willfully overlooked and downplayed whatever they didn't want to deal with because they liked having an authoritarian figure draped in gold who ran roughshod over everyone else? How many weren't fazed by her conniving hypocrisy because they felt she was the one to "Make Bajor Great Again"?
There is no way to know for sure, but let us take a real world example (I'll avoid religion and politics!): Tiger Woods.
15 years ago most of the planet knew of him, and millions around the world cheered for the man who was absolutely destroying golf records with that larger-than-life smile and intense emotional exclamations. Those millions of people were in some way positively impact by Tiger Woods.
But those close to him knew a different Tiger, the man who destroyed his family with his addictions and whatnot, to say nothing of his fight with his caddie and swing coach. Those close enough to him to see him and his day-to-day actions probably had a much different view of him based on behaviors and actions his millions of fans (at the time) had no clue about.
So to answer your question, I believe that most Bajorans (keep in mind, we're talking about an entire planet here) had no idea what she was really like.
I do appreciate that explanation though, and I think the analogy of Woods or really any “Cultural Figure” could apply, and therefore the argument for Med works due to her office and role on Bajor. I think the belly aching if Kai Winn suddenly rivaled Defensive and Mirror Phlox for Gauntlet Med may not be worth the nuanced explanation, but I think your point is very valid @ByloBand & @Travis S McClain
It's curious to look at Kai Winn by avoiding religion and politics, since she was smack dab in the middle of that Venn diagram, but I can understand trying to avoid too many derailments. It's a subject that fascinates me, but it isn't one I need to explore further here. (Hit me up privately, though, if you'd like!) I do think, though, that the very question itself is a testament to the brilliance of DS9, and why it remains relevant all these years later. They did a fantastic job of asking questions about the world, and of showing us what some of our world looked like, could look like, and should look like.
Brilliantly put, I wholeheartedly agree this is DS9s true strength. As distasteful as Winn was, I don’t think she was evil, nor do I feel Weyoun, Dukat or the Founder were evil. They exist in a lot of morally grey shades, but they all had stories that made them deeper than just being a “Bad Guy” like Shinzon or Duras. The most evil character on DS9, in my opinion, was Brunt (not including Kosst Amojin, the Wraiths vs Prophets debate would be a fun one though (or Mega? PLEASE), but seems deeply tied to Angels and Demons and might be a touch sensitive for open forum). Brunt was the only character that actively sought to hurt anyone over and over. Maybe next week we can all come back together and have a deep dive on Brunt or Duras. I’d really enjoy seeing this turn into a regular affair, so many great people on this forum to debate with. “Duras, Son of a Traitor” is also glaringly missing, maybe he can be next.
I have often thought about how odd it is that we still don't have Duras. At some point, we really ought to get him, as well as Toral, I suppose. They're not important enough to me to campaign for them, but I'll sign someone else's petition. As for whether Dukat was truly evil, I defer to the Captain:
"Sometimes life seems so complicated, nothing is truly good or truly evil. Everything seems to be a shade of grey. And then you spend some time with a man like Dukat, and you realize that there is such a thing as truly evil."
The thing about Dukat that made him so dangerous is that despite all of his frightening behavior, he seems to have a legitimate affinity for the Bajoran people and saw himself as a father figure rather than a brutal despot. That’s what’s sneaky about his brand of evil - he thinks he’s doing people a favor when committing atrocities, and is deeply hurt when they respond with what anyone else would consider a normal reaction.
MIRROR WINN.
Dude, I'm sorry
DS9 really gave Trek a richer set of characters than before, almost by necessity given the restrictions from TNG with regards to how Starfleet members should act. It's a little like Gaiman's Sandman in that regard.
It's a shame that TV then wasn't more like today, if any Trek series offered a wealth of potential spin-off series' it was DS9.
I was a pretty big fan of Dukat until season 7. Up until then, he was loyal to Cardassia first. When he gave that up, it ruined the character for me.
I feel kind of the same way about Winn. It was like the writers wanted an epic ending so badly that they ruined Dukat and Winn to make it happen. They both acted subtly against Sisko for six seasons. They maintained their positions (as best they could) and their followers while working somewhat behind the scenes. But season 7 just blew all that up.
I try to forget that the whole thread even happened. The ending with Sisko, Dukat and Winn just doesn't do anything for me. Sorry if I'm raining on the parade, but that's just the way I see it.
To the comment about the non-bridge-crew stealing the show, aside from the O'Brien-Bashir bromance, I agree. Quark, Garak, Dukat, Weyoun, Vic Fontaine... So many great characters.
Dukat descended into madness after Ziyal’s death, and once he got over the initial shock from that tragedy he ended up dragging Winn down with him. Winn always had a tenuous relationship with the Prophets at best that was exposed by Sisko being the Emissary and having multiple direct interactions with them. Years of pent-up frustration with the Prophets plus the shocking revelation that they would allow the butcher of her people during the Occupation find his way into her bed caused her to snap.
I’m not saying they couldn’t have found a better way to end that part of the storyline, just that I get what they were going for and thought it made sense.
Garak would’ve mopped the floor with Winn.
@Travis S McClain I know much about crohns, and you have my deepest sympathies. I hope your flare passes quickly. As for Mirror Winn, I imagine she would be not unlike South Park’s depiction of Mirror Cartman (if you don’t follow SP, Cartman is a miserable nasty person and his Mirror version was kind and thoughtful, with the Spock goatee of course, and the other boys all liked him much better). Strong Med, Dip and a real smile, basically Bareil Antos, but useable for more than just being an ice block. I love the idea, just as much as I loved Keiko being a torturer, even if it wasn’t much of a flip for her.
For the flare or for having Mirror Winn on my mind in the middle of the night?
I'm not sure I agree with that reading of Dukat. He was loyal to Cardassia, but only the one that existed in his mind, as best demonstrated in this exchange from "Return to Grace":
DUKAT: There was a time when the mere mention of my race inspired fear. And now… we're a beaten people. Afraid to fight back because we're afraid to lose what little is left.
KIRA: That's not the Cardassians I know.
DUKAT: What Cardassians? Don't you see, Major? They're paralyzed. They're beaten and defeated. I am the only Cardassian left, and if no one else will stand against the Klingons, I will.
Something of curiosity for me is just how important Dukat had even been during the Occupation. Terok Nor was a valuable facility, but he answered to Legate Kell, who didn't even like or support him. He saw Bajor as his own personal fiefdom, but wasn't he essentially just a middle manager of one planet in the grand scheme of things?
Went I went through DS9 in its entirety in 2015, I was also going through a severe depressive episode. In fact, I was in an outpatient program while watching it, and I had to suspend my viewing of the last few episodes because of a week of inpatient treatment. I was hypersensitive to all the mental health issues that ran throughout the series, and there are a lot. I wanted to write an essay at the time, but wasn't in the right state of mind to compose anything worth reading. And to bring us back to Kai Winn, I think it's important to remember that she, too, had been strongly affected by the Occupation. She most explicitly articulated that in this rebuke of Kira in "Rapture":
Thanks. I'll be fine in a few more days, I'm sure. Our Winn clung to Bajoran religion, but during the Occupation it had been her coping mechanism. Afterwards, it was her path to power. If Mirror Winn hadn't been subjugated and in need of that coping mechanism, and if she had been as ignored by the Mirror Prophets as ours, would she even have been interested in the Bajoran clergy? What if instead she had been drawn to, say, the Klingon religious culture and gone to Borath?
Wanting Cardassia restored to what he perceived to be their former glory made him no less loyal. At one point, he was willing to kill Ziyal, himself. It was his perceived duty. Then he basically lost Cardassia. Then, having only Ziyal left, he lost her too. I get that he snapped. But the cult and making a deal with the Pah Wraiths was too far for me.
I work as a massage therapist, and last week a newer client of mine, who is around 90 years old, casually mentioned remembering the night the Nazis came and took her father. It was jarring, and it was horrifying to have something so dark just casually flow into conversation, and it served as a reminder that events like that never heal. Winn did a great service reminding the audience there was more than just the armed Resistance, there were heroes elsewhere too. I’m still honestly quite rattled by that moment, and this mornings chat has help me organize those thoughts a little better. Thank you for that.
The cult allowed him to have “his” Bajorans back, but I agree, it was a stretch at best to get to the point of his possession and unearthing of the Pahwraiths. I think in that deepest grief, he could have gone straight to Kosst Amojin and given himself over as a vessel of revenge and the story may have flowed better, but the idea he needed Bajoran acceptance and veneration of himself does make the cult idea work. I could see both sides, but absolutely understand where you’re coming from.
I would argue that it wasn't strictly Cardassia's former glory that he wanted to restore, but rather the Cardassia he had bought into. He wanted a Cardassia that was feared and respected because that meant he was feared and respected--which is what he was obsessed with wanting from the Bajorans.
The death of Ziyal was clearly and understandably difficult for him, yes, but I don't think that was what truly pushed him over the edge. When he hashes out what had been gnawing at him with Sisko, he scarcely even talks about that. It's his rejection. He had suffered a series of indignities from the Cardassians--despite being their self-appointed savior. His loyalty had not been reciprocated, and eventually, the spell broke. The Dominion had discarded him, leaving him to the Federation. His final bridge with Cardassia had been burned. That only left him with his warped expectation of fear-based respect and loyalty from the Bajorans. For me, that all tracks.
Wow. That had to have been a powerful, solemn, and humbling moment for you. Hell, I got chills just reading about it secondhand.
He was only ever really Dukat first. Dukat is a narcissist, believing himself a good man, and following from that all his actions are good and those who oppose them are therefore bad, and reacts with hatred with those who reject his perceived good deeds.
He abandoned his people repeatedly when they didn't agree with him - siding with the Detapa Council against the Cardassian Military when it suited him to do so, abandoning them when they didn't agree with fighting the Klingons and even selling his own people out to the Dominion in order to satisfy his view of how things should be.
It's why he wanted the Bajorans to see him as a father, meting out tough love and completely unable to see why they viewed his actions as atrocities.
Without a doubt, but put them in an Odd Couple situation where they need each other, and watch them verbally slice each other to pieces politely.
Mirror Winn is in the DS9 novels, there'll be something on her at Memory Beta.
But Timelines offer a lot of possibilities for her, given how hollow her belief in the Prophets was, there's one timeline where she maybe accepted the Founders as Gods and willingly brought Bajor into the Dominion and ruled like Dukat.
Only she'd be worse. She'd recall how her faith helped her through the Occupation, and know that breaking the spirit of those who believed in the the Prophets would require more than the violence of the Cardassians.