Understanding people and accepting others for their differences is critical to humanity and to society. I hope you change your mind Banjo and stop listening to those that tell you to hate and fear those that are different. By percentages you have friends and family that are part of the lgbtq community. Most lgbtq people are kind wonderful people. It was so sad in my family when my cousin came out as lesbian and her brother refused to see her or allow her near his children because he said she was a sinner and that he did not want her corrupting his children and turning them gay. He refused to let her see her niece and nephews for years. My cousin and her partner are the kindest most loving people you could meet. And when her partner's sister and her husband went to jail for multiple drug crimes my cousin and her partner took in those kids and gave them a loving home until the parents got out of prison and the court decided the kids should go back to their parents. But even to this day my cousin and her partner support those kids as much as they can and help them.
Understanding people and accepting others for their differences is critical to humanity and to society. I hope you change your mind Banjo and stop listening to those that tell you to hate and fear those that are different. By percentages you have friends and family that are part of the lgbtq community. Most lgbtq people are kind wonderful people. It was so sad in my family when my cousin came out as lesbian and her brother refused to see her or allow her near his children because he said she was a sinner and that he did not want her corrupting his children and turning them gay. He refused to let her see her niece and nephews for years. My cousin and her partner are the kindest most loving people you could meet. And when her partner's sister and her husband went to jail for multiple drug crimes my cousin and her partner took in those kids and gave them a loving home until the parents got out of prison and the court decided the kids should go back to their parents. But even to this day my cousin and her partner support those kids as much as they can and help them.
Yes I have known this in my life. And I would not do those things. It’s not about hate or fear. It’s just one thing I do not agree with. You can have all the surgeries you want and do yourself up as much as you want, you can not change the essence of what you are. You can not change your chromosomes into switching your gender. It’s no different than saying you are a chicken and trying to force me into your world of make believe. It’s not the truth nor will it ever be and I prefer to live in reality than pretend something is what it is not. The suicide rate amongst this demographic is not because of bullying it’s because they have a mental disorder. When you have a man who has had surgery to have something cut off and folded in what you have is a man who has mutilated himself and changed nothing. No I don’t want that for my kid and I’m not going to apologize for saying that is someone who needs psychiatric help, not encouragement
Guys, we are all friends here, but we've gone way off topic and are going to end with hard feelings. I suggest the past few posts get edited down and we carry on. Many of these things are simply topics that we would mostly agree with each other if we could speak face to face, but we risk problems by writing short responses online.
Back on topic, if DB can shoehorn a non-canon 5* Trip into a 4* Q event, then I see no problem with doing the same for a non-canon Janeway in a Burnham event. 🖖
"In the short run, the game defines the players. But in the long run, it's us players who define the game." — Nicky Case, The Evolution of Trust
I don't recall a non-canon Trip. I do recall all sorts of crew badly incorporated into events.
For a number of reasons, I don't want a Discovery Janeway (though a disco dancing Janeway might be amusing), but I allow others to want her. I simply wouldn't try for her.
There is only one suggested crew that I would be genuinely offended to get, but I think I would lose friends for my objection so I don't mention it.
The advice I teach my daughters and personally try (and sometimes fail) to live by is to go out of my way to avoid giving intentional offense and then to work very hard to interpret things so as to not be offended by others.
I don't recall a non-canon Trip. I do recall all sorts of crew badly incorporated into events.
For a number of reasons, I don't want a Discovery Janeway (though a disco dancing Janeway might be amusing), but I allow others to want her. I simply wouldn't try for her.
There is only one suggested crew that I would be genuinely offended to get, but I think I would lose friends for my objection so I don't mention it.
The advice I teach my daughters and personally try (and sometimes fail) to live by is to go out of my way to avoid giving intentional offense and then to work very hard to interpret things so as to not be offended by others.
Perhaps he’s talking about Tucker on the Ropes. Very weird character to make
I don't recall a non-canon Trip. I do recall all sorts of crew badly incorporated into events.
For a number of reasons, I don't want a Discovery Janeway (though a disco dancing Janeway might be amusing), but I allow others to want her. I simply wouldn't try for her.
There is only one suggested crew that I would be genuinely offended to get, but I think I would lose friends for my objection so I don't mention it.
The advice I teach my daughters and personally try (and sometimes fail) to live by is to go out of my way to avoid giving intentional offense and then to work very hard to interpret things so as to not be offended by others.
Perhaps he’s talking about Tucker on the Ropes. Very weird character to make
I forgot about that Tucker. I don't have him. Ultimately, Trip is my favorite engineer... except in his relations with T'Pol. He is my favorite personality in that position. O'Brien is my favorite for head of department and getting stuff done. Scotty is of course the ultimate in grandfather-of-engineering. I think, though, overall, I would have Torres on my crew.
Understanding people and accepting others for their differences is critical to humanity and to society. I hope you change your mind Banjo and stop listening to those that tell you to hate and fear those that are different. By percentages you have friends and family that are part of the lgbtq community. Most lgbtq people are kind wonderful people. It was so sad in my family when my cousin came out as lesbian and her brother refused to see her or allow her near his children because he said she was a sinner and that he did not want her corrupting his children and turning them gay. He refused to let her see her niece and nephews for years. My cousin and her partner are the kindest most loving people you could meet. And when her partner's sister and her husband went to jail for multiple drug crimes my cousin and her partner took in those kids and gave them a loving home until the parents got out of prison and the court decided the kids should go back to their parents. But even to this day my cousin and her partner support those kids as much as they can and help them.
Yes I have known this in my life. And I would not do those things. It’s not about hate or fear. It’s just one thing I do not agree with. You can have all the surgeries you want and do yourself up as much as you want, you can not change the essence of what you are. You can not change your chromosomes into switching your gender. It’s no different than saying you are a chicken and trying to force me into your world of make believe. It’s not the truth nor will it ever be and I prefer to live in reality than pretend something is what it is not. The suicide rate amongst this demographic is not because of bullying it’s because they have a mental disorder. When you have a man who has had surgery to have something cut off and folded in what you have is a man who has mutilated himself and changed nothing. No I don’t want that for my kid and I’m not going to apologize for saying that is someone who needs psychiatric help, not encouragement
How DNA and genes are expressed can be changed due to environmental factors. It is why people can be healthy and then one day develop an auto-immune disease. It is why one identical twin can get rheummatoid arthritis and the other does not. It is why XY babies can have androgen insensitivity where their bodies do not take in male hormones and they can be born female in body and mind but their DNA is that of a male, XY. There are also many estrogen mimicking chemicals humans are being exposed to these days including but not limited to plastics, pesticides, and soy. These estrogen mimics are one of the reasons men are having more and more fertility issues and girls are getting their first period earlier and earlier, some as young as seven. Many of these estrogen mimics can affect developing fetuses as well changing bodies or minds. Gender identity comes from the brain and it does not always match the body. It does not mean that these people are mentally ill. It means that they were born with a body of one sex and a mind of another. This is not make believe, it has been shown medically and scientifically. Trans people are not evil or living a fantasy, they were just born different and ask for acceptance. The trans community faces so many problems because it is hard for people to understand. It is hard for them to. Born into a body where their brain tells them they are one sex and their body tells them they are another. They have to try to figure it out and find a way to live the best life they can while people are constantly judging them, hating them, trying to write laws to take away their rights or hurting them. Even in the United States there is a huge number of hate crimes and attacks on trans people. Some of those attacks end in death. Even when not physically attacked they can be bullied and hounded at school, at home and due to the internet every minute of the day. They cannot escape it. Even saying they are mentally ill is an attack on them whether that was your intention or not. I hope in the future you can better understand trans people and accept them. This world is filled with wonderful and amazing different people that just want to love and be loved in return. I am happy to talk to you more about this issue in private chat if you would like. I wish you and everyone a good day and good luck in the event.
Yes I have known this in my life. And I would not do those things. It’s not about hate or fear. It’s just one thing I do not agree with. You can have all the surgeries you want and do yourself up as much as you want, you can not change the essence of what you are. You can not change your chromosomes into switching your gender. It’s no different than saying you are a chicken and trying to force me into your world of make believe. It’s not the truth nor will it ever be and I prefer to live in reality than pretend something is what it is not. The suicide rate amongst this demographic is not because of bullying it’s because they have a mental disorder. When you have a man who has had surgery to have something cut off and folded in what you have is a man who has mutilated himself and changed nothing. No I don’t want that for my kid and I’m not going to apologize for saying that is someone who needs psychiatric help, not encouragement
I wasn't going to revisit this, but since the debate is being friendly, I'll chip in a bit more in this.
This goes into what I was saying earlier - your DNA does not define you. It's not a blueprint, it's a guide for millions of moving parts, many of which interact with each other. So even if you are born XX or XY (there are a range of other options there), you aren't guaranteed everything else will follow the roadmap. X and Y say "hey, this is where we want you to go" not "this is where you will go" - there are a whole raft of diversions that can quite naturally divert that path.
So it tends to be in the womb where gender is defined - not at conception. It's around 8 weeks after conception the biological gender machinery spins up, and a range of genetic and environmental effects start to get involved which can help or hinder the route specified by X/Y.
Take the guavadoces, they're born looking like girls, but chromosomally are XY. It's only when they hit puberty they develop male genitalia.
Additionally, there are those whose brains are effected during development - not psychologically, but physically - and MRI scans have proven this.
So this isn't to say there aren't those with psychological issues over gender, but that it's not all of them, or even a majority.
Intersex and transgender are concrete biological issues.
And the suicide rate amongst the trans community is high, but much of this comes from family and social pressures to conform. You see similar patterns in the gay community that, over time, have diminished as society reduces its prejudice.
Understanding people and accepting others for their differences is critical to humanity and to society. I hope you change your mind Banjo and stop listening to those that tell you to hate and fear those that are different. By percentages you have friends and family that are part of the lgbtq community. Most lgbtq people are kind wonderful people. It was so sad in my family when my cousin came out as lesbian and her brother refused to see her or allow her near his children because he said she was a sinner and that he did not want her corrupting his children and turning them gay. He refused to let her see her niece and nephews for years. My cousin and her partner are the kindest most loving people you could meet. And when her partner's sister and her husband went to jail for multiple drug crimes my cousin and her partner took in those kids and gave them a loving home until the parents got out of prison and the court decided the kids should go back to their parents. But even to this day my cousin and her partner support those kids as much as they can and help them.
Yes I have known this in my life. And I would not do those things. It’s not about hate or fear. It’s just one thing I do not agree with. You can have all the surgeries you want and do yourself up as much as you want, you can not change the essence of what you are. You can not change your chromosomes into switching your gender. It’s no different than saying you are a chicken and trying to force me into your world of make believe. It’s not the truth nor will it ever be and I prefer to live in reality than pretend something is what it is not. The suicide rate amongst this demographic is not because of bullying it’s because they have a mental disorder. When you have a man who has had surgery to have something cut off and folded in what you have is a man who has mutilated himself and changed nothing. No I don’t want that for my kid and I’m not going to apologize for saying that is someone who needs psychiatric help, not encouragement
This is another complex topic, but Apollo and furyd already wrote about it and I don't think what matters here is whether or not you consider gender dysphoria to be a disorder (I think there's still some debate on that right now). It has been considered a disorder for a long time and surgery and hormone therapy are among the treatments that have been proven to be efficient in treating it.
Trans people (mostly trans women, I think) are among the demographics most at risk of violence, discrimination and bullying. There are statistics on this.
Now, I don't think you believe that violence, bullying, exclusion and ridicule can't do any harm to someone who already suffers from a mental disorder or that people who are mentally ill deserve to be treated that way (if yes, just say it and I will stop bothering you with my responses to your comments).
So the mental illness argument is not actually relevant to this discussion, I think.
Personally, I think that you're basing your opinions on this matter on your intuition and the feelings that you have about it, not on any specific information, especially not on any scientific information. You could try to read some resources on the topic, there are lots of journals and articles available online that don't belong to any particular group or community but are merely scientific publications.
Apart from that, I wonder why you assume that kids could become trans simply by hearing about it, especially given that you're convinced that it's a mental disorder.
I've met very few people (like, two people) in the LGBT+ community that believe that deep down we're all gender fluid and pansexual, if only we let go of our prejudice. Funnily enough, people who are very anti-LGBT often seem to share this belief in their concerns and argumentations. However, to my knowledge there's really nothing to support these claims.
Understanding people and accepting others for their differences is critical to humanity and to society. I hope you change your mind Banjo and stop listening to those that tell you to hate and fear those that are different. By percentages you have friends and family that are part of the lgbtq community. Most lgbtq people are kind wonderful people. It was so sad in my family when my cousin came out as lesbian and her brother refused to see her or allow her near his children because he said she was a sinner and that he did not want her corrupting his children and turning them gay. He refused to let her see her niece and nephews for years. My cousin and her partner are the kindest most loving people you could meet. And when her partner's sister and her husband went to jail for multiple drug crimes my cousin and her partner took in those kids and gave them a loving home until the parents got out of prison and the court decided the kids should go back to their parents. But even to this day my cousin and her partner support those kids as much as they can and help them.
Yes I have known this in my life. And I would not do those things. It’s not about hate or fear. It’s just one thing I do not agree with. You can have all the surgeries you want and do yourself up as much as you want, you can not change the essence of what you are. You can not change your chromosomes into switching your gender. It’s no different than saying you are a chicken and trying to force me into your world of make believe. It’s not the truth nor will it ever be and I prefer to live in reality than pretend something is what it is not. The suicide rate amongst this demographic is not because of bullying it’s because they have a mental disorder. When you have a man who has had surgery to have something cut off and folded in what you have is a man who has mutilated himself and changed nothing. No I don’t want that for my kid and I’m not going to apologize for saying that is someone who needs psychiatric help, not encouragement
This is another complex topic, but Apollo and furyd already wrote about it and I don't think what matters here is whether or not you consider gender dysphoria to be a disorder (I think there's still some debate on that right now). It has been considered a disorder for a long time and surgery and hormone therapy are among the treatments that have been proven to be efficient in treating it.
Trans people (mostly trans women, I think) are among the demographics most at risk of violence, discrimination and bullying. There are statistics on this.
Now, I don't think you believe that violence, bullying, exclusion and ridicule can't do any harm to someone who already suffers from a mental disorder or that people who are mentally ill deserve to be treated that way (if yes, just say it and I will stop bothering you with my responses to your comments).
So the mental illness argument is not actually relevant to this discussion, I think.
Personally, I think that you're basing your opinions on this matter on your intuition and the feelings that you have about it, not on any specific information, especially not on any scientific information. You could try to read some resources on the topic, there are lots of journals and articles available online that don't belong to any particular group or community but are merely scientific publications.
Apart from that, I wonder why you assume that kids could become trans simply by hearing about it, especially given that you're convinced that it's a mental disorder.
I've met very few people (like, two people) in the LGBT+ community that believe that deep down we're all gender fluid and pansexual, if only we let go of our prejudice. Funnily enough, people who are very anti-LGBT often seem to share this belief in their concerns and argumentations. However, to my knowledge there's really nothing to support these claims.
One can develop a disorder through exposure or an experience. In fact I am experiencing this right now. I work in an environment of violence (a bad part of Chicago). I’ve had me life threatened, I’ve had an employee come at me with a knife (I’m the manager here), I’ve had to wrestle employees to the ground. Now we are getting carjacked at gunpoint on the streets. But the worst of it all was just this past Tuesday I was physically attacked by an employee. I had to go to the clinic. I just came back to work today, which is Sunday, and I’m finding I can’t focus on work and am having difficulty talking to employees, which obviously is a must. Not every condition is inborn or always there. Sometimes they can be developed through an experience or even happen in an instant
Understanding people and accepting others for their differences is critical to humanity and to society. I hope you change your mind Banjo and stop listening to those that tell you to hate and fear those that are different. By percentages you have friends and family that are part of the lgbtq community. Most lgbtq people are kind wonderful people. It was so sad in my family when my cousin came out as lesbian and her brother refused to see her or allow her near his children because he said she was a sinner and that he did not want her corrupting his children and turning them gay. He refused to let her see her niece and nephews for years. My cousin and her partner are the kindest most loving people you could meet. And when her partner's sister and her husband went to jail for multiple drug crimes my cousin and her partner took in those kids and gave them a loving home until the parents got out of prison and the court decided the kids should go back to their parents. But even to this day my cousin and her partner support those kids as much as they can and help them.
Yes I have known this in my life. And I would not do those things. It’s not about hate or fear. It’s just one thing I do not agree with. You can have all the surgeries you want and do yourself up as much as you want, you can not change the essence of what you are. You can not change your chromosomes into switching your gender. It’s no different than saying you are a chicken and trying to force me into your world of make believe. It’s not the truth nor will it ever be and I prefer to live in reality than pretend something is what it is not. The suicide rate amongst this demographic is not because of bullying it’s because they have a mental disorder. When you have a man who has had surgery to have something cut off and folded in what you have is a man who has mutilated himself and changed nothing. No I don’t want that for my kid and I’m not going to apologize for saying that is someone who needs psychiatric help, not encouragement
This is another complex topic, but Apollo and furyd already wrote about it and I don't think what matters here is whether or not you consider gender dysphoria to be a disorder (I think there's still some debate on that right now). It has been considered a disorder for a long time and surgery and hormone therapy are among the treatments that have been proven to be efficient in treating it.
Trans people (mostly trans women, I think) are among the demographics most at risk of violence, discrimination and bullying. There are statistics on this.
Now, I don't think you believe that violence, bullying, exclusion and ridicule can't do any harm to someone who already suffers from a mental disorder or that people who are mentally ill deserve to be treated that way (if yes, just say it and I will stop bothering you with my responses to your comments).
So the mental illness argument is not actually relevant to this discussion, I think.
Personally, I think that you're basing your opinions on this matter on your intuition and the feelings that you have about it, not on any specific information, especially not on any scientific information. You could try to read some resources on the topic, there are lots of journals and articles available online that don't belong to any particular group or community but are merely scientific publications.
Apart from that, I wonder why you assume that kids could become trans simply by hearing about it, especially given that you're convinced that it's a mental disorder.
I've met very few people (like, two people) in the LGBT+ community that believe that deep down we're all gender fluid and pansexual, if only we let go of our prejudice. Funnily enough, people who are very anti-LGBT often seem to share this belief in their concerns and argumentations. However, to my knowledge there's really nothing to support these claims.
One can develop a disorder through exposure or an experience. In fact I am experiencing this right now. I work in an environment of violence (a bad part of Chicago). I’ve had me life threatened, I’ve had an employee come at me with a knife (I’m the manager here), I’ve had to wrestle employees to the ground. Now we are getting carjacked at gunpoint on the streets. But the worst of it all was just this past Tuesday I was physically attacked by an employee. I had to go to the clinic. I just came back to work today, which is Sunday, and I’m finding I can’t focus on work and am having difficulty talking to employees, which obviously is a must. Not every condition is inborn or always there. Sometimes they can be developed through an experience or even happen in an instant
Of course they can. Also, what you write sounds awful and I'm sorry that you're going through this.
But from what I understand you're developing anxiety or trauma through exposure to violence. You're not developing anxiety through exposure to other people's anxiety. I don't think it's possible to develop a mental disorder simply by finding out about the existence of people who struggle with it.
And in this argument we're still assuming that gender dysphoria is a disorder, which is a controversial thing.
But do you really think that your daughter would be confused or disturbed simply by being taught that trans people exist (because they do, no matter what you think about them) and that they should be treated with respect and dignity like every other human being?
If yes, I don't think it makes sense for me to try to convince you of the opposite here, but I really think that you should seek more information on this entire topic, if you feel so strongly about it.
Understanding people and accepting others for their differences is critical to humanity and to society. I hope you change your mind Banjo and stop listening to those that tell you to hate and fear those that are different. By percentages you have friends and family that are part of the lgbtq community. Most lgbtq people are kind wonderful people. It was so sad in my family when my cousin came out as lesbian and her brother refused to see her or allow her near his children because he said she was a sinner and that he did not want her corrupting his children and turning them gay. He refused to let her see her niece and nephews for years. My cousin and her partner are the kindest most loving people you could meet. And when her partner's sister and her husband went to jail for multiple drug crimes my cousin and her partner took in those kids and gave them a loving home until the parents got out of prison and the court decided the kids should go back to their parents. But even to this day my cousin and her partner support those kids as much as they can and help them.
Yes I have known this in my life. And I would not do those things. It’s not about hate or fear. It’s just one thing I do not agree with. You can have all the surgeries you want and do yourself up as much as you want, you can not change the essence of what you are. You can not change your chromosomes into switching your gender. It’s no different than saying you are a chicken and trying to force me into your world of make believe. It’s not the truth nor will it ever be and I prefer to live in reality than pretend something is what it is not. The suicide rate amongst this demographic is not because of bullying it’s because they have a mental disorder. When you have a man who has had surgery to have something cut off and folded in what you have is a man who has mutilated himself and changed nothing. No I don’t want that for my kid and I’m not going to apologize for saying that is someone who needs psychiatric help, not encouragement
This is another complex topic, but Apollo and furyd already wrote about it and I don't think what matters here is whether or not you consider gender dysphoria to be a disorder (I think there's still some debate on that right now). It has been considered a disorder for a long time and surgery and hormone therapy are among the treatments that have been proven to be efficient in treating it.
Trans people (mostly trans women, I think) are among the demographics most at risk of violence, discrimination and bullying. There are statistics on this.
Now, I don't think you believe that violence, bullying, exclusion and ridicule can't do any harm to someone who already suffers from a mental disorder or that people who are mentally ill deserve to be treated that way (if yes, just say it and I will stop bothering you with my responses to your comments).
So the mental illness argument is not actually relevant to this discussion, I think.
Personally, I think that you're basing your opinions on this matter on your intuition and the feelings that you have about it, not on any specific information, especially not on any scientific information. You could try to read some resources on the topic, there are lots of journals and articles available online that don't belong to any particular group or community but are merely scientific publications.
Apart from that, I wonder why you assume that kids could become trans simply by hearing about it, especially given that you're convinced that it's a mental disorder.
I've met very few people (like, two people) in the LGBT+ community that believe that deep down we're all gender fluid and pansexual, if only we let go of our prejudice. Funnily enough, people who are very anti-LGBT often seem to share this belief in their concerns and argumentations. However, to my knowledge there's really nothing to support these claims.
One can develop a disorder through exposure or an experience. In fact I am experiencing this right now. I work in an environment of violence (a bad part of Chicago). I’ve had me life threatened, I’ve had an employee come at me with a knife (I’m the manager here), I’ve had to wrestle employees to the ground. Now we are getting carjacked at gunpoint on the streets. But the worst of it all was just this past Tuesday I was physically attacked by an employee. I had to go to the clinic. I just came back to work today, which is Sunday, and I’m finding I can’t focus on work and am having difficulty talking to employees, which obviously is a must. Not every condition is inborn or always there. Sometimes they can be developed through an experience or even happen in an instant
Of course they can. Also, what you write sounds awful and I'm sorry that you're going through this.
But from what I understand you're developing anxiety or trauma through exposure to violence. You're not developing anxiety through exposure to other people's anxiety. I don't think it's possible to develop a mental disorder simply by finding out about the existence of people who struggle with it.
And in this argument we're still assuming that gender dysphoria is a disorder, which is a controversial thing.
But do you really think that your daughter would be confused or disturbed simply by being taught that trans people exist (because they do, no matter what you think about them) and that they should be treated with respect and dignity like every other human being?
If yes, I don't think it makes sense for me to try to convince you of the opposite here, but I really think that you should seek more information on this entire topic, if you feel so strongly about it.
You are right on me being incorrect about the differences between the two situations. Honestly I’m not in a good state of mind right now so perhaps I should just stop talking but just to say one more thing to answer you, it’s not that the situation exists, it’s that it’s everywhere you turn around. Exposure is one thing, bombardment is another
Understanding people and accepting others for their differences is critical to humanity and to society. I hope you change your mind Banjo and stop listening to those that tell you to hate and fear those that are different. By percentages you have friends and family that are part of the lgbtq community. Most lgbtq people are kind wonderful people. It was so sad in my family when my cousin came out as lesbian and her brother refused to see her or allow her near his children because he said she was a sinner and that he did not want her corrupting his children and turning them gay. He refused to let her see her niece and nephews for years. My cousin and her partner are the kindest most loving people you could meet. And when her partner's sister and her husband went to jail for multiple drug crimes my cousin and her partner took in those kids and gave them a loving home until the parents got out of prison and the court decided the kids should go back to their parents. But even to this day my cousin and her partner support those kids as much as they can and help them.
Yes I have known this in my life. And I would not do those things. It’s not about hate or fear. It’s just one thing I do not agree with. You can have all the surgeries you want and do yourself up as much as you want, you can not change the essence of what you are. You can not change your chromosomes into switching your gender. It’s no different than saying you are a chicken and trying to force me into your world of make believe. It’s not the truth nor will it ever be and I prefer to live in reality than pretend something is what it is not. The suicide rate amongst this demographic is not because of bullying it’s because they have a mental disorder. When you have a man who has had surgery to have something cut off and folded in what you have is a man who has mutilated himself and changed nothing. No I don’t want that for my kid and I’m not going to apologize for saying that is someone who needs psychiatric help, not encouragement
This is another complex topic, but Apollo and furyd already wrote about it and I don't think what matters here is whether or not you consider gender dysphoria to be a disorder (I think there's still some debate on that right now). It has been considered a disorder for a long time and surgery and hormone therapy are among the treatments that have been proven to be efficient in treating it.
Trans people (mostly trans women, I think) are among the demographics most at risk of violence, discrimination and bullying. There are statistics on this.
Now, I don't think you believe that violence, bullying, exclusion and ridicule can't do any harm to someone who already suffers from a mental disorder or that people who are mentally ill deserve to be treated that way (if yes, just say it and I will stop bothering you with my responses to your comments).
So the mental illness argument is not actually relevant to this discussion, I think.
Personally, I think that you're basing your opinions on this matter on your intuition and the feelings that you have about it, not on any specific information, especially not on any scientific information. You could try to read some resources on the topic, there are lots of journals and articles available online that don't belong to any particular group or community but are merely scientific publications.
Apart from that, I wonder why you assume that kids could become trans simply by hearing about it, especially given that you're convinced that it's a mental disorder.
I've met very few people (like, two people) in the LGBT+ community that believe that deep down we're all gender fluid and pansexual, if only we let go of our prejudice. Funnily enough, people who are very anti-LGBT often seem to share this belief in their concerns and argumentations. However, to my knowledge there's really nothing to support these claims.
One can develop a disorder through exposure or an experience. In fact I am experiencing this right now. I work in an environment of violence (a bad part of Chicago). I’ve had me life threatened, I’ve had an employee come at me with a knife (I’m the manager here), I’ve had to wrestle employees to the ground. Now we are getting carjacked at gunpoint on the streets. But the worst of it all was just this past Tuesday I was physically attacked by an employee. I had to go to the clinic. I just came back to work today, which is Sunday, and I’m finding I can’t focus on work and am having difficulty talking to employees, which obviously is a must. Not every condition is inborn or always there. Sometimes they can be developed through an experience or even happen in an instant
Of course they can. Also, what you write sounds awful and I'm sorry that you're going through this.
But from what I understand you're developing anxiety or trauma through exposure to violence. You're not developing anxiety through exposure to other people's anxiety. I don't think it's possible to develop a mental disorder simply by finding out about the existence of people who struggle with it.
And in this argument we're still assuming that gender dysphoria is a disorder, which is a controversial thing.
But do you really think that your daughter would be confused or disturbed simply by being taught that trans people exist (because they do, no matter what you think about them) and that they should be treated with respect and dignity like every other human being?
If yes, I don't think it makes sense for me to try to convince you of the opposite here, but I really think that you should seek more information on this entire topic, if you feel so strongly about it.
You are right on me being incorrect about the differences between the two situations. Honestly I’m not in a good state of mind right now so perhaps I should just stop talking but just to say one more thing to answer you, it’s not that the situation exists, it’s that it’s everywhere you turn around. Exposure is one thing, bombardment is another
I will leave you alone after this comment. I'm sorry for what you're going through.
The only thing I'd like to add, is that you're feeling like you're being bombarded with these things, but that's probably just because you're not used to see them out in the light and you find dealing with them uncomfortable. Again, if you feel so strongly about this topic, I think that it would be good for you to learn more about it, especially if you plan to make decisions on your daughter's education based on your opinions on these matters.
Every once in a while DB creates a DB original. They have done this very few times so far, and some are more succesful than others. Personally, I consider Aviator Yar and Tuskagee Mayweather my favorites. I'm not so positive about augment Riker, 23rd century Martok, assimilated Geordi (though he is very good) and on-the-ropes Tucker. But I am in favor of DB experimenting with this every once in a while.
The prime argument against a Disco Janeway in my view would be that she already has a Timelines Original: mirror Janeway.
Other than that, I would consider it light hearted trolling at best. A joke. And I'm ok with that.
I fail to understand this concept of being a different gender in your brain. To me that concept does not make any sense. A gender is determined by the physical reproductive body parts you have, except perhaps in extremely rare medical conditions some of which were mentioned in this thread. There is no need to alter language definitions in order to incorporate such extreme minority cases.
If you have physical body parts of a male, but in your mind you prefer to behave and dress and live in ways that are more typical of a female, why are we now trying to say that you are a female? Isn't that just reinforcing gender roles and behaviors by saying I don't belong to my gender, just because I feel/behave in a certain way that's not common to the majority of men? Feel how you want to feel, and have whatever kind of relationship you want to with others of the same or a different gender. Isn't that more psychologically healthy than believing there is something wrong with the body you have compared to your feelings?
I know this might seem off-topic to an STT forum, but to me this steps on the very science-based approach of Star Trek which I think society is moving away from in some ways, with all the non-science based information spread in social media (anti-vaxx, etc) being a prime example. Does everyone forget about the scientific method after high school? If it's not a repeatable experiment, especially with double blind studies and a large population where necessary, it's not yet scientifically proven and should not be shared as fact and especially not risking your life on.
I fail to understand this concept of being a different gender in your brain. To me that concept does not make any sense. A gender is determined by the physical reproductive body parts you have, except perhaps in extremely rare medical conditions some of which were mentioned in this thread. There is no need to alter language definitions in order to incorporate such extreme minority cases.
If you have physical body parts of a male, but in your mind you prefer to behave and dress and live in ways that are more typical of a female, why are we now trying to say that you are a female? Isn't that just reinforcing gender roles and behaviors by saying I don't belong to my gender, just because I feel/behave in a certain way that's not common to the majority of men? Feel how you want to feel, and have whatever kind of relationship you want to with others of the same or a different gender. Isn't that more psychologically healthy than believing there is something wrong with the body you have compared to your feelings?
I know this might seem off-topic to an STT forum, but to me this steps on the very science-based approach of Star Trek which I think society is moving away from in some ways, with all the non-science based information spread in social media (anti-vaxx, etc) being a prime example. Does everyone forget about the scientific method after high school? If it's not a repeatable experiment, especially with double blind studies and a large population where necessary, it's not yet scientifically proven and should not be shared as fact and especially not risking your life on.
Agreed. I always wanted to be a baseball player but I made it as an umpire. I wasn’t a player and I had to accept it. I could not force people to call me a player, it wasn’t the truth, and the world wouldn’t cater to me by calling me one.
One can develop a disorder through exposure or an experience. In fact I am experiencing this right now. I work in an environment of violence (a bad part of Chicago). I’ve had me life threatened, I’ve had an employee come at me with a knife (I’m the manager here), I’ve had to wrestle employees to the ground. Now we are getting carjacked at gunpoint on the streets. But the worst of it all was just this past Tuesday I was physically attacked by an employee. I had to go to the clinic. I just came back to work today, which is Sunday, and I’m finding I can’t focus on work and am having difficulty talking to employees, which obviously is a must. Not every condition is inborn or always there. Sometimes they can be developed through an experience or even happen in an instant
Doesn't sound like a healthy situation, I hope things improve for you soon.
One can develop a disorder through exposure or an experience. In fact I am experiencing this right now. I work in an environment of violence (a bad part of Chicago). I’ve had me life threatened, I’ve had an employee come at me with a knife (I’m the manager here), I’ve had to wrestle employees to the ground. Now we are getting carjacked at gunpoint on the streets. But the worst of it all was just this past Tuesday I was physically attacked by an employee. I had to go to the clinic. I just came back to work today, which is Sunday, and I’m finding I can’t focus on work and am having difficulty talking to employees, which obviously is a must. Not every condition is inborn or always there. Sometimes they can be developed through an experience or even happen in an instant
Doesn't sound like a healthy situation, I hope things improve for you soon.
Thank you. I actually took vacation this week. I need some time to feel ok about being there again
I fail to understand this concept of being a different gender in your brain. To me that concept does not make any sense. A gender is determined by the physical reproductive body parts you have, except perhaps in extremely rare medical conditions some of which were mentioned in this thread. There is no need to alter language definitions in order to incorporate such extreme minority cases.
Nothing wrong with not understanding, but there is actual evidence on this. MRI scans show that brain activity in trans people reflect that of the gender they believe they should be rather than their physical parts.
And defining gender simply by their reproductive organs is a little Lamarckian - does a castrated man suddenly become a third gender? How about a woman who has her ovaries removed due to an illness like cancer? Is she no longer a woman?
Gender is something of a spectrum, with most of us fortunate enough to be in a position where it can viewed (falsely) as binary.
If you have physical body parts of a male, but in your mind you prefer to behave and dress and live in ways that are more typical of a female, why are we now trying to say that you are a female? Isn't that just reinforcing gender roles and behaviors by saying I don't belong to my gender, just because I feel/behave in a certain way that's not common to the majority of men? Feel how you want to feel, and have whatever kind of relationship you want to with others of the same or a different gender. Isn't that more psychologically healthy than believing there is something wrong with the body you have compared to your feelings?
It doesn't so much reinforce gender roles so much as reflect them, if someone identifies as female then there is an attempt to try and resemble societies definition of one.
It's also not about 'feeling' - feelings are usually transient and ephemeral. Having known a few trans people, indeed dated a couple, its significantly deeper than that.
I know this might seem off-topic to an STT forum, but to me this steps on the very science-based approach of Star Trek which I think society is moving away from in some ways, with all the non-science based information spread in social media (anti-vaxx, etc) being a prime example. Does everyone forget about the scientific method after high school? If it's not a repeatable experiment, especially with double blind studies and a large population where necessary, it's not yet scientifically proven and should not be shared as fact and especially not risking your life on.
I agree we're moving away from science rather alarmingly, but don't make the mistake of assuming that just because there is something you disagree with, or don't fully understand, then it is automatically non-scientific.
There are some repeatable experiments - the aforementioned MRI scans for example, along with decades of evidence on how foetal development works. Fun fact, for the first 8 weeks after conception we're all proto-female - it's only when the TDF/SRY gene kicks in and inhibits further development of female attributes and triggers the generation of male attributes though some very complicated pathways - so it could be argued we've already had a sex change in the womb
You can also play about the TDF/SRY gene and get plenty of outcomes, repeatedly, such as shrunken testes and full sex reversal.
And there was the unfortunate DES incident, a synthetic oestrogen prescribed to pregnant women, which caused any boys exposed to it to act closer to females.
I recommend having a good read up on it, if you like biology it's a bit of a rabbit warren as there are piles of things to absorb, but yes there is a lot of science backing it up.
2. People should be allowed to hold their beliefs as they see fit. Demanding that everyone hold the same view and the same beliefs is dystopian 1984 nonsense. Now, if someone commits a crime because of their belief...then that's a crime. But holding an opinion, even if it's an "unpopular" opinion, is not illegal (nor should it be).
Immortalized: 465
Tour of duty: January 2016 to present.
Shut up Wesley.
I fail to understand this concept of being a different gender in your brain. To me that concept does not make any sense. A gender is determined by the physical reproductive body parts you have, except perhaps in extremely rare medical conditions some of which were mentioned in this thread. There is no need to alter language definitions in order to incorporate such extreme minority cases.
Nothing wrong with not understanding, but there is actual evidence on this. MRI scans show that brain activity in trans people reflect that of the gender they believe they should be rather than their physical parts.
So the MRI scan is reinforcing that some people think and feel in a way that may not match the way most people of their gender do. It is not surprising to me that an MRI scanning our brain (which is the source of our behavior/personality/feelings) matches a person's behavior up with others who have similar behavior/feelings/personality, regardless of reproductive organs.
And defining gender simply by their reproductive organs is a little Lamarckian - does a castrated man suddenly become a third gender? How about a woman who has her ovaries removed due to an illness like cancer? Is she no longer a woman?
Gender is something of a spectrum, with most of us fortunate enough to be in a position where it can viewed (falsely) as binary.
If a person were castrated, through an accident or illness or otherwise, I would never show them a lack of respect or compassion to imply they no longer have a gender. Women sometimes have feelings like this after hysterectomies or breast removal, but of course it's extremely important to support them in knowing they would never be treated differently.
If you have physical body parts of a male, but in your mind you prefer to behave and dress and live in ways that are more typical of a female, why are we now trying to say that you are a female? Isn't that just reinforcing gender roles and behaviors by saying I don't belong to my gender, just because I feel/behave in a certain way that's not common to the majority of men? Feel how you want to feel, and have whatever kind of relationship you want to with others of the same or a different gender. Isn't that more psychologically healthy than believing there is something wrong with the body you have compared to your feelings?
It doesn't so much reinforce gender roles so much as reflect them, if someone identifies as female then there is an attempt to try and resemble societies definition of one.
It's also not about 'feeling' - feelings are usually transient and ephemeral. Having known a few trans people, indeed dated a couple, its significantly deeper than that.
I agree I don't think I should have specified only feelings as they are transient as you mentioned, but rather included additional traits such as behavior and personality. I did not intend to imply these preferences are fleeting.
I think I should clarify a bit here, if a person were to change their appearance through clothing/hair etc from male to female, I'd happily refer to them as "she" or "her" in a social or work situation etc. This is a bit indirect, as you don't typically hear others referring to these pronouns directly instead of "you" or "(name)" when speaking directly to a person, but I think it would just be confusing to everyone if I were not to show that appropriate respect.
I just don't agree with the need for any further confusion from there. There are physically two genders, and if you prefer to dress/behave in a way more common to the opposite gender, I'm happy to refer to you that way (when speaking to others about you using pronouns). Passports can show your physical gender, but your appearance just needs to match your picture. It does not matter if it matches the listed physical gender you had at birth for identification. Plenty of people have been androgynous looking in the past and that's never mattered for identification.
Introducing gender as a spectrum is just unnecessarily confusing, and creates too many security and potential personal issues with unintentional offense, particularly in a workplace.
I know this might seem off-topic to an STT forum, but to me this steps on the very science-based approach of Star Trek which I think society is moving away from in some ways, with all the non-science based information spread in social media (anti-vaxx, etc) being a prime example. Does everyone forget about the scientific method after high school? If it's not a repeatable experiment, especially with double blind studies and a large population where necessary, it's not yet scientifically proven and should not be shared as fact and especially not risking your life on.
I agree we're moving away from science rather alarmingly, but don't make the mistake of assuming that just because there is something you disagree with, or don't fully understand, then it is automatically non-scientific.
There are some repeatable experiments - the aforementioned MRI scans for example, along with decades of evidence on how foetal development works. Fun fact, for the first 8 weeks after conception we're all proto-female - it's only when the TDF/SRY gene kicks in and inhibits further development of female attributes and triggers the generation of male attributes though some very complicated pathways - so it could be argued we've already had a sex change in the womb
You can also play about the TDF/SRY gene and get plenty of outcomes, repeatedly, such as shrunken testes and full sex reversal.
And there was the unfortunate DES incident, a synthetic oestrogen prescribed to pregnant women, which caused any boys exposed to it to act closer to females.
I recommend having a good read up on it, if you like biology it's a bit of a rabbit warren as there are piles of things to absorb, but yes there is a lot of science backing it up.
We all also begin as separate cells (sperm/ovum), and the ovum has no gender specific markers while the sperm does. In the vast majority of cases, the resulting fully developed human will match the physical gender determined by the genetic markers from the sperm. We don't have any reproductive organs when we're 2 separate organisms not yet fertilized, but the genetic markers are already there to determine where we will VERY likely land without external manipulation or medical complications and extreme rarities. This is physical, genetic gender. There are 2 of them in my opinion.
One can develop a disorder through exposure or an experience. In fact I am experiencing this right now. I work in an environment of violence (a bad part of Chicago). I’ve had me life threatened, I’ve had an employee come at me with a knife (I’m the manager here), I’ve had to wrestle employees to the ground. Now we are getting carjacked at gunpoint on the streets. But the worst of it all was just this past Tuesday I was physically attacked by an employee. I had to go to the clinic. I just came back to work today, which is Sunday, and I’m finding I can’t focus on work and am having difficulty talking to employees, which obviously is a must. Not every condition is inborn or always there. Sometimes they can be developed through an experience or even happen in an instant
Doesn't sound like a healthy situation, I hope things improve for you soon.
Thank you. I actually took vacation this week. I need some time to feel ok about being there again
I hope your work environment improves Banjo, nobody deserves to feel unsafe at work.
2. People should be allowed to hold their beliefs as they see fit. Demanding that everyone hold the same view and the same beliefs is dystopian 1984 nonsense. Now, if someone commits a crime because of their belief...then that's a crime. But holding an opinion, even if it's an "unpopular" opinion, is not illegal (nor should it be).
I don't think that so far anyone in this discussion demanded that everyone should hold the same befiefs or else be punished.
But there are opinions that are purely subjective, like those concerning taste and emotions, and others that are not, because they concern thigs that are observable and quantifiable and are usually based on facts that can be researched, analyzed and studied. No one will punish you for saying that the Earth is flat, but people are allowed to ask you to support your claim and to point out if your argument is not based on any verifiable evidence.
That being said, even in a discussion where everyone uses sound arguments, good information and facts to support their point of view, there can still be disagreement. But if the very fact of having a discussion is seen as a form of disrespect of other people's opinions, then we lose all the benefits that an exchange of ideas can bring to our knowledge and reasoning.
I fail to understand this concept of being a different gender in your brain. To me that concept does not make any sense. A gender is determined by the physical reproductive body parts you have, except perhaps in extremely rare medical conditions some of which were mentioned in this thread. There is no need to alter language definitions in order to incorporate such extreme minority cases.
If you have physical body parts of a male, but in your mind you prefer to behave and dress and live in ways that are more typical of a female, why are we now trying to say that you are a female? Isn't that just reinforcing gender roles and behaviors by saying I don't belong to my gender, just because I feel/behave in a certain way that's not common to the majority of men? Feel how you want to feel, and have whatever kind of relationship you want to with others of the same or a different gender. Isn't that more psychologically healthy than believing there is something wrong with the body you have compared to your feelings?
I know this might seem off-topic to an STT forum, but to me this steps on the very science-based approach of Star Trek which I think society is moving away from in some ways, with all the non-science based information spread in social media (anti-vaxx, etc) being a prime example. Does everyone forget about the scientific method after high school? If it's not a repeatable experiment, especially with double blind studies and a large population where necessary, it's not yet scientifically proven and should not be shared as fact and especially not risking your life on.
Humans are two things, the physical and the mental. Your body and your mind. But that which is your self, your identity, your thoughts, your feelings, your desires, your hopes is in your mind. Everything that is your thinking self is in your brain. If you lose an arm the brain can still feel that it is there and you will have phantom limb sensations. If your body gets old you may still feel young in your mind and try to still do the things you have always done even though you may not now be able. Your body may be small and not one good for football but your mind may have a good cerebellum for sports and you may love playing football. Why are some men gay while others are straight when both have the same physical parts? Because their minds are different. Same kind of thing with trans people. Their bodies say they are one sex but their minds say they are another. You are correct that we need to pay attention to science but these differences in brains have been found with science and medicine. There some minute differences on average in a couple areas of the brains in males and females. Using an MRI scan scientists can see that the brain of someone who is born male but identifies as transgender woman will often have a brain that is more like that of someone who is female. And someone who is born female but identifies as trangender man will often have a brain that is more like that of someone male. For more information you can google it or read more on this link from the Cleveland Clinic. https://health.clevelandclinic.org/research-on-the-transgender-brain-what-you-should-know/
I fail to understand this concept of being a different gender in your brain. To me that concept does not make any sense. A gender is determined by the physical reproductive body parts you have, except perhaps in extremely rare medical conditions some of which were mentioned in this thread. There is no need to alter language definitions in order to incorporate such extreme minority cases.
If you have physical body parts of a male, but in your mind you prefer to behave and dress and live in ways that are more typical of a female, why are we now trying to say that you are a female? Isn't that just reinforcing gender roles and behaviors by saying I don't belong to my gender, just because I feel/behave in a certain way that's not common to the majority of men? Feel how you want to feel, and have whatever kind of relationship you want to with others of the same or a different gender. Isn't that more psychologically healthy than believing there is something wrong with the body you have compared to your feelings?
I know this might seem off-topic to an STT forum, but to me this steps on the very science-based approach of Star Trek which I think society is moving away from in some ways, with all the non-science based information spread in social media (anti-vaxx, etc) being a prime example. Does everyone forget about the scientific method after high school? If it's not a repeatable experiment, especially with double blind studies and a large population where necessary, it's not yet scientifically proven and should not be shared as fact and especially not risking your life on.
Agreed. I always wanted to be a baseball player but I made it as an umpire. I wasn’t a player and I had to accept it. I could not force people to call me a player, it wasn’t the truth, and the world wouldn’t cater to me by calling me one.
But no one bans you from playing baseball and if you wanted to play you could in lots of different leagues. And you are still allowed to be on the baseball field.
I am sorry Banjo about the issues you are facing personally and I encourage you to talk to someone, whether it is myself, another friend, or a therapist. Just talking about a situation can greatly help.
I fail to understand this concept of being a different gender in your brain. To me that concept does not make any sense. A gender is determined by the physical reproductive body parts you have, except perhaps in extremely rare medical conditions some of which were mentioned in this thread. There is no need to alter language definitions in order to incorporate such extreme minority cases.
If you have physical body parts of a male, but in your mind you prefer to behave and dress and live in ways that are more typical of a female, why are we now trying to say that you are a female? Isn't that just reinforcing gender roles and behaviors by saying I don't belong to my gender, just because I feel/behave in a certain way that's not common to the majority of men? Feel how you want to feel, and have whatever kind of relationship you want to with others of the same or a different gender. Isn't that more psychologically healthy than believing there is something wrong with the body you have compared to your feelings?
I know this might seem off-topic to an STT forum, but to me this steps on the very science-based approach of Star Trek which I think society is moving away from in some ways, with all the non-science based information spread in social media (anti-vaxx, etc) being a prime example. Does everyone forget about the scientific method after high school? If it's not a repeatable experiment, especially with double blind studies and a large population where necessary, it's not yet scientifically proven and should not be shared as fact and especially not risking your life on.
Agreed. I always wanted to be a baseball player but I made it as an umpire. I wasn’t a player and I had to accept it. I could not force people to call me a player, it wasn’t the truth, and the world wouldn’t cater to me by calling me one.
But no one bans you from playing baseball and if you wanted to play you could in lots of different leagues. And you are still allowed to be on the baseball field.
I am sorry Banjo about the issues you are facing personally and I encourage you to talk to someone, whether it is myself, another friend, or a therapist. Just talking about a situation can greatly help.
Thanks man, I’m fact I just got home from the therapist. It was a good road to take
I fail to understand this concept of being a different gender in your brain. To me that concept does not make any sense. A gender is determined by the physical reproductive body parts you have, except perhaps in extremely rare medical conditions some of which were mentioned in this thread. There is no need to alter language definitions in order to incorporate such extreme minority cases.
If you have physical body parts of a male, but in your mind you prefer to behave and dress and live in ways that are more typical of a female, why are we now trying to say that you are a female? Isn't that just reinforcing gender roles and behaviors by saying I don't belong to my gender, just because I feel/behave in a certain way that's not common to the majority of men? Feel how you want to feel, and have whatever kind of relationship you want to with others of the same or a different gender. Isn't that more psychologically healthy than believing there is something wrong with the body you have compared to your feelings?
I know this might seem off-topic to an STT forum, but to me this steps on the very science-based approach of Star Trek which I think society is moving away from in some ways, with all the non-science based information spread in social media (anti-vaxx, etc) being a prime example. Does everyone forget about the scientific method after high school? If it's not a repeatable experiment, especially with double blind studies and a large population where necessary, it's not yet scientifically proven and should not be shared as fact and especially not risking your life on.
Agreed. I always wanted to be a baseball player but I made it as an umpire. I wasn’t a player and I had to accept it. I could not force people to call me a player, it wasn’t the truth, and the world wouldn’t cater to me by calling me one.
But no one bans you from playing baseball and if you wanted to play you could in lots of different leagues. And you are still allowed to be on the baseball field.
I am sorry Banjo about the issues you are facing personally and I encourage you to talk to someone, whether it is myself, another friend, or a therapist. Just talking about a situation can greatly help.
Thanks man, I’m fact I just got home from the therapist. It was a good road to take
Glad to hear it. Therapy can be very helpful. Know that there are many people that care about you. You are not alone. We wish you well and if you ever want to talk we are here.
I fail to understand this concept of being a different gender in your brain. To me that concept does not make any sense. A gender is determined by the physical reproductive body parts you have, except perhaps in extremely rare medical conditions some of which were mentioned in this thread. There is no need to alter language definitions in order to incorporate such extreme minority cases.
If you have physical body parts of a male, but in your mind you prefer to behave and dress and live in ways that are more typical of a female, why are we now trying to say that you are a female? Isn't that just reinforcing gender roles and behaviors by saying I don't belong to my gender, just because I feel/behave in a certain way that's not common to the majority of men? Feel how you want to feel, and have whatever kind of relationship you want to with others of the same or a different gender. Isn't that more psychologically healthy than believing there is something wrong with the body you have compared to your feelings?
I know this might seem off-topic to an STT forum, but to me this steps on the very science-based approach of Star Trek which I think society is moving away from in some ways, with all the non-science based information spread in social media (anti-vaxx, etc) being a prime example. Does everyone forget about the scientific method after high school? If it's not a repeatable experiment, especially with double blind studies and a large population where necessary, it's not yet scientifically proven and should not be shared as fact and especially not risking your life on.
Agreed. I always wanted to be a baseball player but I made it as an umpire. I wasn’t a player and I had to accept it. I could not force people to call me a player, it wasn’t the truth, and the world wouldn’t cater to me by calling me one.
But no one bans you from playing baseball and if you wanted to play you could in lots of different leagues. And you are still allowed to be on the baseball field.
I am sorry Banjo about the issues you are facing personally and I encourage you to talk to someone, whether it is myself, another friend, or a therapist. Just talking about a situation can greatly help.
Thanks man, I’m fact I just got home from the therapist. It was a good road to take
Glad to hear it. Therapy can be very helpful. Know that there are many people that care about you. You are not alone. We wish you well and if you ever want to talk we are here.
Comments
Yes I have known this in my life. And I would not do those things. It’s not about hate or fear. It’s just one thing I do not agree with. You can have all the surgeries you want and do yourself up as much as you want, you can not change the essence of what you are. You can not change your chromosomes into switching your gender. It’s no different than saying you are a chicken and trying to force me into your world of make believe. It’s not the truth nor will it ever be and I prefer to live in reality than pretend something is what it is not. The suicide rate amongst this demographic is not because of bullying it’s because they have a mental disorder. When you have a man who has had surgery to have something cut off and folded in what you have is a man who has mutilated himself and changed nothing. No I don’t want that for my kid and I’m not going to apologize for saying that is someone who needs psychiatric help, not encouragement
For a number of reasons, I don't want a Discovery Janeway (though a disco dancing Janeway might be amusing), but I allow others to want her. I simply wouldn't try for her.
There is only one suggested crew that I would be genuinely offended to get, but I think I would lose friends for my objection so I don't mention it.
The advice I teach my daughters and personally try (and sometimes fail) to live by is to go out of my way to avoid giving intentional offense and then to work very hard to interpret things so as to not be offended by others.
Perhaps he’s talking about Tucker on the Ropes. Very weird character to make
Indeed I was, in reference to the Ready to Rumble event. 🖖
https://stt.wiki/wiki/Tucker_On-The-Ropes
How DNA and genes are expressed can be changed due to environmental factors. It is why people can be healthy and then one day develop an auto-immune disease. It is why one identical twin can get rheummatoid arthritis and the other does not. It is why XY babies can have androgen insensitivity where their bodies do not take in male hormones and they can be born female in body and mind but their DNA is that of a male, XY. There are also many estrogen mimicking chemicals humans are being exposed to these days including but not limited to plastics, pesticides, and soy. These estrogen mimics are one of the reasons men are having more and more fertility issues and girls are getting their first period earlier and earlier, some as young as seven. Many of these estrogen mimics can affect developing fetuses as well changing bodies or minds. Gender identity comes from the brain and it does not always match the body. It does not mean that these people are mentally ill. It means that they were born with a body of one sex and a mind of another. This is not make believe, it has been shown medically and scientifically. Trans people are not evil or living a fantasy, they were just born different and ask for acceptance. The trans community faces so many problems because it is hard for people to understand. It is hard for them to. Born into a body where their brain tells them they are one sex and their body tells them they are another. They have to try to figure it out and find a way to live the best life they can while people are constantly judging them, hating them, trying to write laws to take away their rights or hurting them. Even in the United States there is a huge number of hate crimes and attacks on trans people. Some of those attacks end in death. Even when not physically attacked they can be bullied and hounded at school, at home and due to the internet every minute of the day. They cannot escape it. Even saying they are mentally ill is an attack on them whether that was your intention or not. I hope in the future you can better understand trans people and accept them. This world is filled with wonderful and amazing different people that just want to love and be loved in return. I am happy to talk to you more about this issue in private chat if you would like. I wish you and everyone a good day and good luck in the event.
I wasn't going to revisit this, but since the debate is being friendly, I'll chip in a bit more in this.
This goes into what I was saying earlier - your DNA does not define you. It's not a blueprint, it's a guide for millions of moving parts, many of which interact with each other. So even if you are born XX or XY (there are a range of other options there), you aren't guaranteed everything else will follow the roadmap. X and Y say "hey, this is where we want you to go" not "this is where you will go" - there are a whole raft of diversions that can quite naturally divert that path.
So it tends to be in the womb where gender is defined - not at conception. It's around 8 weeks after conception the biological gender machinery spins up, and a range of genetic and environmental effects start to get involved which can help or hinder the route specified by X/Y.
Take the guavadoces, they're born looking like girls, but chromosomally are XY. It's only when they hit puberty they develop male genitalia.
Additionally, there are those whose brains are effected during development - not psychologically, but physically - and MRI scans have proven this.
So this isn't to say there aren't those with psychological issues over gender, but that it's not all of them, or even a majority.
Intersex and transgender are concrete biological issues.
And the suicide rate amongst the trans community is high, but much of this comes from family and social pressures to conform. You see similar patterns in the gay community that, over time, have diminished as society reduces its prejudice.
This is another complex topic, but Apollo and furyd already wrote about it and I don't think what matters here is whether or not you consider gender dysphoria to be a disorder (I think there's still some debate on that right now). It has been considered a disorder for a long time and surgery and hormone therapy are among the treatments that have been proven to be efficient in treating it.
Trans people (mostly trans women, I think) are among the demographics most at risk of violence, discrimination and bullying. There are statistics on this.
Now, I don't think you believe that violence, bullying, exclusion and ridicule can't do any harm to someone who already suffers from a mental disorder or that people who are mentally ill deserve to be treated that way (if yes, just say it and I will stop bothering you with my responses to your comments).
So the mental illness argument is not actually relevant to this discussion, I think.
Personally, I think that you're basing your opinions on this matter on your intuition and the feelings that you have about it, not on any specific information, especially not on any scientific information. You could try to read some resources on the topic, there are lots of journals and articles available online that don't belong to any particular group or community but are merely scientific publications.
Apart from that, I wonder why you assume that kids could become trans simply by hearing about it, especially given that you're convinced that it's a mental disorder.
I've met very few people (like, two people) in the LGBT+ community that believe that deep down we're all gender fluid and pansexual, if only we let go of our prejudice. Funnily enough, people who are very anti-LGBT often seem to share this belief in their concerns and argumentations. However, to my knowledge there's really nothing to support these claims.
One can develop a disorder through exposure or an experience. In fact I am experiencing this right now. I work in an environment of violence (a bad part of Chicago). I’ve had me life threatened, I’ve had an employee come at me with a knife (I’m the manager here), I’ve had to wrestle employees to the ground. Now we are getting carjacked at gunpoint on the streets. But the worst of it all was just this past Tuesday I was physically attacked by an employee. I had to go to the clinic. I just came back to work today, which is Sunday, and I’m finding I can’t focus on work and am having difficulty talking to employees, which obviously is a must. Not every condition is inborn or always there. Sometimes they can be developed through an experience or even happen in an instant
Of course they can. Also, what you write sounds awful and I'm sorry that you're going through this.
But from what I understand you're developing anxiety or trauma through exposure to violence. You're not developing anxiety through exposure to other people's anxiety. I don't think it's possible to develop a mental disorder simply by finding out about the existence of people who struggle with it.
And in this argument we're still assuming that gender dysphoria is a disorder, which is a controversial thing.
But do you really think that your daughter would be confused or disturbed simply by being taught that trans people exist (because they do, no matter what you think about them) and that they should be treated with respect and dignity like every other human being?
If yes, I don't think it makes sense for me to try to convince you of the opposite here, but I really think that you should seek more information on this entire topic, if you feel so strongly about it.
You are right on me being incorrect about the differences between the two situations. Honestly I’m not in a good state of mind right now so perhaps I should just stop talking but just to say one more thing to answer you, it’s not that the situation exists, it’s that it’s everywhere you turn around. Exposure is one thing, bombardment is another
I will leave you alone after this comment. I'm sorry for what you're going through.
The only thing I'd like to add, is that you're feeling like you're being bombarded with these things, but that's probably just because you're not used to see them out in the light and you find dealing with them uncomfortable. Again, if you feel so strongly about this topic, I think that it would be good for you to learn more about it, especially if you plan to make decisions on your daughter's education based on your opinions on these matters.
The prime argument against a Disco Janeway in my view would be that she already has a Timelines Original: mirror Janeway.
Other than that, I would consider it light hearted trolling at best. A joke. And I'm ok with that.
If you have physical body parts of a male, but in your mind you prefer to behave and dress and live in ways that are more typical of a female, why are we now trying to say that you are a female? Isn't that just reinforcing gender roles and behaviors by saying I don't belong to my gender, just because I feel/behave in a certain way that's not common to the majority of men? Feel how you want to feel, and have whatever kind of relationship you want to with others of the same or a different gender. Isn't that more psychologically healthy than believing there is something wrong with the body you have compared to your feelings?
I know this might seem off-topic to an STT forum, but to me this steps on the very science-based approach of Star Trek which I think society is moving away from in some ways, with all the non-science based information spread in social media (anti-vaxx, etc) being a prime example. Does everyone forget about the scientific method after high school? If it's not a repeatable experiment, especially with double blind studies and a large population where necessary, it's not yet scientifically proven and should not be shared as fact and especially not risking your life on.
Agreed. I always wanted to be a baseball player but I made it as an umpire. I wasn’t a player and I had to accept it. I could not force people to call me a player, it wasn’t the truth, and the world wouldn’t cater to me by calling me one.
Doesn't sound like a healthy situation, I hope things improve for you soon.
Thank you. I actually took vacation this week. I need some time to feel ok about being there again
Nothing wrong with not understanding, but there is actual evidence on this. MRI scans show that brain activity in trans people reflect that of the gender they believe they should be rather than their physical parts.
And defining gender simply by their reproductive organs is a little Lamarckian - does a castrated man suddenly become a third gender? How about a woman who has her ovaries removed due to an illness like cancer? Is she no longer a woman?
Gender is something of a spectrum, with most of us fortunate enough to be in a position where it can viewed (falsely) as binary.
It doesn't so much reinforce gender roles so much as reflect them, if someone identifies as female then there is an attempt to try and resemble societies definition of one.
It's also not about 'feeling' - feelings are usually transient and ephemeral. Having known a few trans people, indeed dated a couple, its significantly deeper than that.
I agree we're moving away from science rather alarmingly, but don't make the mistake of assuming that just because there is something you disagree with, or don't fully understand, then it is automatically non-scientific.
There are some repeatable experiments - the aforementioned MRI scans for example, along with decades of evidence on how foetal development works. Fun fact, for the first 8 weeks after conception we're all proto-female - it's only when the TDF/SRY gene kicks in and inhibits further development of female attributes and triggers the generation of male attributes though some very complicated pathways - so it could be argued we've already had a sex change in the womb
You can also play about the TDF/SRY gene and get plenty of outcomes, repeatedly, such as shrunken testes and full sex reversal.
And there was the unfortunate DES incident, a synthetic oestrogen prescribed to pregnant women, which caused any boys exposed to it to act closer to females.
I recommend having a good read up on it, if you like biology it's a bit of a rabbit warren as there are piles of things to absorb, but yes there is a lot of science backing it up.
1. Plz no Discovery Janeway.
2. People should be allowed to hold their beliefs as they see fit. Demanding that everyone hold the same view and the same beliefs is dystopian 1984 nonsense. Now, if someone commits a crime because of their belief...then that's a crime. But holding an opinion, even if it's an "unpopular" opinion, is not illegal (nor should it be).
Tour of duty: January 2016 to present.
Shut up Wesley.
So the MRI scan is reinforcing that some people think and feel in a way that may not match the way most people of their gender do. It is not surprising to me that an MRI scanning our brain (which is the source of our behavior/personality/feelings) matches a person's behavior up with others who have similar behavior/feelings/personality, regardless of reproductive organs.
If a person were castrated, through an accident or illness or otherwise, I would never show them a lack of respect or compassion to imply they no longer have a gender. Women sometimes have feelings like this after hysterectomies or breast removal, but of course it's extremely important to support them in knowing they would never be treated differently.
I agree I don't think I should have specified only feelings as they are transient as you mentioned, but rather included additional traits such as behavior and personality. I did not intend to imply these preferences are fleeting.
I think I should clarify a bit here, if a person were to change their appearance through clothing/hair etc from male to female, I'd happily refer to them as "she" or "her" in a social or work situation etc. This is a bit indirect, as you don't typically hear others referring to these pronouns directly instead of "you" or "(name)" when speaking directly to a person, but I think it would just be confusing to everyone if I were not to show that appropriate respect.
I just don't agree with the need for any further confusion from there. There are physically two genders, and if you prefer to dress/behave in a way more common to the opposite gender, I'm happy to refer to you that way (when speaking to others about you using pronouns). Passports can show your physical gender, but your appearance just needs to match your picture. It does not matter if it matches the listed physical gender you had at birth for identification. Plenty of people have been androgynous looking in the past and that's never mattered for identification.
Introducing gender as a spectrum is just unnecessarily confusing, and creates too many security and potential personal issues with unintentional offense, particularly in a workplace.
We all also begin as separate cells (sperm/ovum), and the ovum has no gender specific markers while the sperm does. In the vast majority of cases, the resulting fully developed human will match the physical gender determined by the genetic markers from the sperm. We don't have any reproductive organs when we're 2 separate organisms not yet fertilized, but the genetic markers are already there to determine where we will VERY likely land without external manipulation or medical complications and extreme rarities. This is physical, genetic gender. There are 2 of them in my opinion.
I hope your work environment improves Banjo, nobody deserves to feel unsafe at work.
I don't think that so far anyone in this discussion demanded that everyone should hold the same befiefs or else be punished.
But there are opinions that are purely subjective, like those concerning taste and emotions, and others that are not, because they concern thigs that are observable and quantifiable and are usually based on facts that can be researched, analyzed and studied. No one will punish you for saying that the Earth is flat, but people are allowed to ask you to support your claim and to point out if your argument is not based on any verifiable evidence.
That being said, even in a discussion where everyone uses sound arguments, good information and facts to support their point of view, there can still be disagreement. But if the very fact of having a discussion is seen as a form of disrespect of other people's opinions, then we lose all the benefits that an exchange of ideas can bring to our knowledge and reasoning.
Humans are two things, the physical and the mental. Your body and your mind. But that which is your self, your identity, your thoughts, your feelings, your desires, your hopes is in your mind. Everything that is your thinking self is in your brain. If you lose an arm the brain can still feel that it is there and you will have phantom limb sensations. If your body gets old you may still feel young in your mind and try to still do the things you have always done even though you may not now be able. Your body may be small and not one good for football but your mind may have a good cerebellum for sports and you may love playing football. Why are some men gay while others are straight when both have the same physical parts? Because their minds are different. Same kind of thing with trans people. Their bodies say they are one sex but their minds say they are another. You are correct that we need to pay attention to science but these differences in brains have been found with science and medicine. There some minute differences on average in a couple areas of the brains in males and females. Using an MRI scan scientists can see that the brain of someone who is born male but identifies as transgender woman will often have a brain that is more like that of someone who is female. And someone who is born female but identifies as trangender man will often have a brain that is more like that of someone male. For more information you can google it or read more on this link from the Cleveland Clinic. https://health.clevelandclinic.org/research-on-the-transgender-brain-what-you-should-know/
But no one bans you from playing baseball and if you wanted to play you could in lots of different leagues. And you are still allowed to be on the baseball field.
I am sorry Banjo about the issues you are facing personally and I encourage you to talk to someone, whether it is myself, another friend, or a therapist. Just talking about a situation can greatly help.
Thanks man, I’m fact I just got home from the therapist. It was a good road to take
Glad to hear it. Therapy can be very helpful. Know that there are many people that care about you. You are not alone. We wish you well and if you ever want to talk we are here.
Thank you sir!