What are the guesses on which four star will be ranked and which will be threshold? I noticed I need one more diplomat for the collection bonus and Weyoun 4 is one
According to the Wiki, 4* Breen Disguise Dukat was the threshold reward in the original run of this Event, so I expect that he will be the ranked reward in this rerun (which is not a flashback).
Hm since I realized what reruns are (which was quite some months ago) there had never been a switch between threshold and ranked 4*. I expect Dukat in the threshold again.
Wir, die Mirror Tribbles [MiT] haben freie Plätze zu vergeben. Kein Zwang und kein Stress, dafür aber Spaß, Discord und eine nette, hilfsbereite Gemeinschaft, incl. voll ausgebauter Starbase und täglich 700 ISM.
What are the guesses on which four star will be ranked and which will be threshold? I noticed I need one more diplomat for the collection bonus and Weyoun 4 is one
According to the Wiki, 4* Breen Disguise Dukat was the threshold reward in the original run of this Event, so I expect that he will be the ranked reward in this rerun (which is not a flashback).
Hm since I realized what reruns are (which was quite some months ago) there had never been a switch between threshold and ranked 4*. I expect Dukat in the threshold again.
They have switched the SR's before during reruns, but I think they keep it the same more often than not. I expect they will be the same as last time, but I won't be taking any actions in advance.
To be honest ... as someone who's hardly seen any ST at all, just snippets here and there ...
I've always felt that ST was about space exploration, which is why there is equal weight to diplomacy, science, engineering, commanding people and aggression when required. There is space for crew to act if they have a unique insight into a situation (either through intelligence, knowledge or through a trait they might have because they might be of alien nature (e.g. Saru and "feeling" danger)) and crew will be asked to voice their opinion even if they aren't in command (e.g. an engineer asked for advice, or a diplomat on how to approach an alien culture) - see it more along the lines of a Dutch "poldermodel".
e.g. You can see a Tardigrade as a hostile being and want to neutralise it (e.g. Landry) or to try to understand its emotions and form of communication (e.g. Burnham and Stamets) or to try and utilise the greater for overal benefit (e.g. Lorca). Stamets is upset about proceedings (the military duties assigned to the ship) but there is dialogue between him and Lorca and in the end he does continue to work towards getting the
I thought that the Mirror universe embodied not space exploration, but space conquest, which is why ST in that universe is much more agressive (militaristic) and doesn't put as much emphasis on e.g. a cultural attache or scientific discoveries.
Also ... correct me if I'm wrong here ... but from what I've seen of TOS ... Spock is ALWAYS (exaggeration) in conflict with Kirk about what action has to be taken ... just see the episode with the Horta, where Kirk wants to kill the Horta but Spock tells him not to attack it. Kirk's the captain so Spock is basically ignoring him and starting up a discussion with him ...
Anyway, my two - no ST-background - cents ...
That’s a great point about Spock - they definitely have different approaches to a lot of situations and conflicts are inevitable. See also: Riker and Jellico.
I think it works for Kirk and Spock because not only is Spock the first officer (and therefore the person with the greatest responsibility to provide alternative courses of action to his captain, something other XOs have done over the years), he and Kirk are close friends and have a great respect for and understanding of each other.
While Burnham and Saru certainly are familiar with one another, Lorca and Pike don’t know either of them nearly as well and it’s harder to justify why they are so happy to break protocol other than to say the writers are just plain ignorant.
Now you are just splitting hairs. I do not believe Saru ever broke protocol and Lorca encouraged strength and doing whatever it took to win and Pike encouraged everyone contributing ideas regardless of rank so Burnham was following the protocol established by those captains. I would also remind you that Captains routinely have disobeyed Starfleet's and Admirals' orders and that if Captain Picard had not disobeyed Admiral Hayes' orders that the Enterpise not engage in the fight with the Borg Cube in First Contact then Earth would have been assimilated. And how did Data respond when Captain Picard said he was defying the orders from Starfleet?
Or in TNG episode Redemption II when Data disobeys Captain Picard's orders to pull back the U.S.S. Sutherland and by disobeying Picard's orders Data is able to expose the Romulan plot to otherthrow the Klingon government and Picard tells Data "the claim 'I was only following orders' has been used to justify too many tragedies in our history. Starfleet doesn't want officers who will blindly follow orders without analysing the situation."
To be honest ... as someone who's hardly seen any ST at all, just snippets here and there ...
I've always felt that ST was about space exploration, which is why there is equal weight to diplomacy, science, engineering, commanding people and aggression when required. There is space for crew to act if they have a unique insight into a situation (either through intelligence, knowledge or through a trait they might have because they might be of alien nature (e.g. Saru and "feeling" danger)) and crew will be asked to voice their opinion even if they aren't in command (e.g. an engineer asked for advice, or a diplomat on how to approach an alien culture) - see it more along the lines of a Dutch "poldermodel".
e.g. You can see a Tardigrade as a hostile being and want to neutralise it (e.g. Landry) or to try to understand its emotions and form of communication (e.g. Burnham and Stamets) or to try and utilise the greater for overal benefit (e.g. Lorca). Stamets is upset about proceedings (the military duties assigned to the ship) but there is dialogue between him and Lorca and in the end he does continue to work towards getting the
I thought that the Mirror universe embodied not space exploration, but space conquest, which is why ST in that universe is much more agressive (militaristic) and doesn't put as much emphasis on e.g. a cultural attache or scientific discoveries.
Also ... correct me if I'm wrong here ... but from what I've seen of TOS ... Spock is ALWAYS (exaggeration) in conflict with Kirk about what action has to be taken ... just see the episode with the Horta, where Kirk wants to kill the Horta but Spock tells him not to attack it. Kirk's the captain so Spock is basically ignoring him and starting up a discussion with him ...
Anyway, my two - no ST-background - cents ...
That’s a great point about Spock - they definitely have different approaches to a lot of situations and conflicts are inevitable. See also: Riker and Jellico.
I think it works for Kirk and Spock because not only is Spock the first officer (and therefore the person with the greatest responsibility to provide alternative courses of action to his captain, something other XOs have done over the years), he and Kirk are close friends and have a great respect for and understanding of each other.
While Burnham and Saru certainly are familiar with one another, Lorca and Pike don’t know either of them nearly as well and it’s harder to justify why they are so happy to break protocol other than to say the writers are just plain ignorant.
Now you are just splitting hairs. I do not believe Saru ever broke protocol and Lorca encouraged strength and doing whatever it took to win and Pike encouraged everyone contributing ideas regardless of rank so Burnham was following the protocol established by those captains.
Bzzzzzt! Sorry, wrong answer, but thank you for playing!
You obviously haven't watched all of S2 Disco. In Ep6, Saru goes completely AGAINST Pike's orders and beams down to his home world to set right what he views as wrong. Not only disobeying Pike's orders but Starfleet General Order One as well! His actions had a positive outcome, but definitely court martial offenses. When Burnham did essentially the same thing against Georgiou, she did have a court martial and sentenced as a traitor and got prison time.
I agree the writers got some liberties for S2, which I think they were simply trying (perhaps too hard) to make up for all the production faux pas in S1.
To be honest ... as someone who's hardly seen any ST at all, just snippets here and there ...
I've always felt that ST was about space exploration, which is why there is equal weight to diplomacy, science, engineering, commanding people and aggression when required. There is space for crew to act if they have a unique insight into a situation (either through intelligence, knowledge or through a trait they might have because they might be of alien nature (e.g. Saru and "feeling" danger)) and crew will be asked to voice their opinion even if they aren't in command (e.g. an engineer asked for advice, or a diplomat on how to approach an alien culture) - see it more along the lines of a Dutch "poldermodel".
e.g. You can see a Tardigrade as a hostile being and want to neutralise it (e.g. Landry) or to try to understand its emotions and form of communication (e.g. Burnham and Stamets) or to try and utilise the greater for overal benefit (e.g. Lorca). Stamets is upset about proceedings (the military duties assigned to the ship) but there is dialogue between him and Lorca and in the end he does continue to work towards getting the
I thought that the Mirror universe embodied not space exploration, but space conquest, which is why ST in that universe is much more agressive (militaristic) and doesn't put as much emphasis on e.g. a cultural attache or scientific discoveries.
Also ... correct me if I'm wrong here ... but from what I've seen of TOS ... Spock is ALWAYS (exaggeration) in conflict with Kirk about what action has to be taken ... just see the episode with the Horta, where Kirk wants to kill the Horta but Spock tells him not to attack it. Kirk's the captain so Spock is basically ignoring him and starting up a discussion with him ...
Anyway, my two - no ST-background - cents ...
That’s a great point about Spock - they definitely have different approaches to a lot of situations and conflicts are inevitable. See also: Riker and Jellico.
I think it works for Kirk and Spock because not only is Spock the first officer (and therefore the person with the greatest responsibility to provide alternative courses of action to his captain, something other XOs have done over the years), he and Kirk are close friends and have a great respect for and understanding of each other.
While Burnham and Saru certainly are familiar with one another, Lorca and Pike don’t know either of them nearly as well and it’s harder to justify why they are so happy to break protocol other than to say the writers are just plain ignorant.
Now you are just splitting hairs. I do not believe Saru ever broke protocol and Lorca encouraged strength and doing whatever it took to win and Pike encouraged everyone contributing ideas regardless of rank so Burnham was following the protocol established by those captains.
Bzzzzzt! Sorry, wrong answer, but thank you for playing!
You obviously haven't watched all of S2 Disco. In Ep6, Saru goes completely AGAINST Pike's orders and beams down to his home world to set right what he views as wrong. Not only disobeying Pike's orders but Starfleet General Order One as well! His actions had a positive outcome, but definitely court martial offenses. When Burnham did essentially the same thing against Georgiou, she did have a court martial and sentenced as a traitor and got prison time.
I agree the writers got some liberties for S2, which I think they were simply trying (perhaps too hard) to make up for all the production faux pas in S1.
Yes, Saru disobeyed Pike's order and broke the Prime Directive. But that's been standard throughout Trek. The main characters usually get a slap on the wrist/warning since what they did turned out to be right.
Burnham committed mutiny. That's much worse than what Saru did.
To be honest ... as someone who's hardly seen any ST at all, just snippets here and there ...
I've always felt that ST was about space exploration, which is why there is equal weight to diplomacy, science, engineering, commanding people and aggression when required. There is space for crew to act if they have a unique insight into a situation (either through intelligence, knowledge or through a trait they might have because they might be of alien nature (e.g. Saru and "feeling" danger)) and crew will be asked to voice their opinion even if they aren't in command (e.g. an engineer asked for advice, or a diplomat on how to approach an alien culture) - see it more along the lines of a Dutch "poldermodel".
e.g. You can see a Tardigrade as a hostile being and want to neutralise it (e.g. Landry) or to try to understand its emotions and form of communication (e.g. Burnham and Stamets) or to try and utilise the greater for overal benefit (e.g. Lorca). Stamets is upset about proceedings (the military duties assigned to the ship) but there is dialogue between him and Lorca and in the end he does continue to work towards getting the
I thought that the Mirror universe embodied not space exploration, but space conquest, which is why ST in that universe is much more agressive (militaristic) and doesn't put as much emphasis on e.g. a cultural attache or scientific discoveries.
Also ... correct me if I'm wrong here ... but from what I've seen of TOS ... Spock is ALWAYS (exaggeration) in conflict with Kirk about what action has to be taken ... just see the episode with the Horta, where Kirk wants to kill the Horta but Spock tells him not to attack it. Kirk's the captain so Spock is basically ignoring him and starting up a discussion with him ...
Anyway, my two - no ST-background - cents ...
That’s a great point about Spock - they definitely have different approaches to a lot of situations and conflicts are inevitable. See also: Riker and Jellico.
I think it works for Kirk and Spock because not only is Spock the first officer (and therefore the person with the greatest responsibility to provide alternative courses of action to his captain, something other XOs have done over the years), he and Kirk are close friends and have a great respect for and understanding of each other.
While Burnham and Saru certainly are familiar with one another, Lorca and Pike don’t know either of them nearly as well and it’s harder to justify why they are so happy to break protocol other than to say the writers are just plain ignorant.
Now you are just splitting hairs. I do not believe Saru ever broke protocol and Lorca encouraged strength and doing whatever it took to win and Pike encouraged everyone contributing ideas regardless of rank so Burnham was following the protocol established by those captains.
Bzzzzzt! Sorry, wrong answer, but thank you for playing!
You obviously haven't watched all of S2 Disco. In Ep6, Saru goes completely AGAINST Pike's orders and beams down to his home world to set right what he views as wrong. Not only disobeying Pike's orders but Starfleet General Order One as well! His actions had a positive outcome, but definitely court martial offenses. When Burnham did essentially the same thing against Georgiou, she did have a court martial and sentenced as a traitor and got prison time.
I agree the writers got some liberties for S2, which I think they were simply trying (perhaps too hard) to make up for all the production faux pas in S1.
Yes, Saru disobeyed Pike's order and broke the Prime Directive. But that's been standard throughout Trek. The main characters usually get a slap on the wrist/warning since what they did turned out to be right.
Burnham committed mutiny. That's much worse than what Saru did.
To be honest ... as someone who's hardly seen any ST at all, just snippets here and there ...
I've always felt that ST was about space exploration, which is why there is equal weight to diplomacy, science, engineering, commanding people and aggression when required. There is space for crew to act if they have a unique insight into a situation (either through intelligence, knowledge or through a trait they might have because they might be of alien nature (e.g. Saru and "feeling" danger)) and crew will be asked to voice their opinion even if they aren't in command (e.g. an engineer asked for advice, or a diplomat on how to approach an alien culture) - see it more along the lines of a Dutch "poldermodel".
e.g. You can see a Tardigrade as a hostile being and want to neutralise it (e.g. Landry) or to try to understand its emotions and form of communication (e.g. Burnham and Stamets) or to try and utilise the greater for overal benefit (e.g. Lorca). Stamets is upset about proceedings (the military duties assigned to the ship) but there is dialogue between him and Lorca and in the end he does continue to work towards getting the
I thought that the Mirror universe embodied not space exploration, but space conquest, which is why ST in that universe is much more agressive (militaristic) and doesn't put as much emphasis on e.g. a cultural attache or scientific discoveries.
Also ... correct me if I'm wrong here ... but from what I've seen of TOS ... Spock is ALWAYS (exaggeration) in conflict with Kirk about what action has to be taken ... just see the episode with the Horta, where Kirk wants to kill the Horta but Spock tells him not to attack it. Kirk's the captain so Spock is basically ignoring him and starting up a discussion with him ...
Anyway, my two - no ST-background - cents ...
That’s a great point about Spock - they definitely have different approaches to a lot of situations and conflicts are inevitable. See also: Riker and Jellico.
I think it works for Kirk and Spock because not only is Spock the first officer (and therefore the person with the greatest responsibility to provide alternative courses of action to his captain, something other XOs have done over the years), he and Kirk are close friends and have a great respect for and understanding of each other.
While Burnham and Saru certainly are familiar with one another, Lorca and Pike don’t know either of them nearly as well and it’s harder to justify why they are so happy to break protocol other than to say the writers are just plain ignorant.
Now you are just splitting hairs. I do not believe Saru ever broke protocol and Lorca encouraged strength and doing whatever it took to win and Pike encouraged everyone contributing ideas regardless of rank so Burnham was following the protocol established by those captains.
Bzzzzzt! Sorry, wrong answer, but thank you for playing!
You obviously haven't watched all of S2 Disco. In Ep6, Saru goes completely AGAINST Pike's orders and beams down to his home world to set right what he views as wrong. Not only disobeying Pike's orders but Starfleet General Order One as well! His actions had a positive outcome, but definitely court martial offenses. When Burnham did essentially the same thing against Georgiou, she did have a court martial and sentenced as a traitor and got prison time.
I agree the writers got some liberties for S2, which I think they were simply trying (perhaps too hard) to make up for all the production faux pas in S1.
Yes, Saru disobeyed Pike's order and broke the Prime Directive. But that's been standard throughout Trek. The main characters usually get a slap on the wrist/warning since what they did turned out to be right.
Burnham committed mutiny. That's much worse than what Saru did.
And she knocked her captain out
Well clearly she didn't because Georgiou immediately came out of the captain's ready room. So that is only attempted knocking her captain out. And to that Burnham is quite guilty because who trained on Vulcan cannot do a proper Vulcan nerve pinch? That was just embarassing and clearly Sarek failed her in her training.
To be honest ... as someone who's hardly seen any ST at all, just snippets here and there ...
I've always felt that ST was about space exploration, which is why there is equal weight to diplomacy, science, engineering, commanding people and aggression when required. There is space for crew to act if they have a unique insight into a situation (either through intelligence, knowledge or through a trait they might have because they might be of alien nature (e.g. Saru and "feeling" danger)) and crew will be asked to voice their opinion even if they aren't in command (e.g. an engineer asked for advice, or a diplomat on how to approach an alien culture) - see it more along the lines of a Dutch "poldermodel".
e.g. You can see a Tardigrade as a hostile being and want to neutralise it (e.g. Landry) or to try to understand its emotions and form of communication (e.g. Burnham and Stamets) or to try and utilise the greater for overal benefit (e.g. Lorca). Stamets is upset about proceedings (the military duties assigned to the ship) but there is dialogue between him and Lorca and in the end he does continue to work towards getting the
I thought that the Mirror universe embodied not space exploration, but space conquest, which is why ST in that universe is much more agressive (militaristic) and doesn't put as much emphasis on e.g. a cultural attache or scientific discoveries.
Also ... correct me if I'm wrong here ... but from what I've seen of TOS ... Spock is ALWAYS (exaggeration) in conflict with Kirk about what action has to be taken ... just see the episode with the Horta, where Kirk wants to kill the Horta but Spock tells him not to attack it. Kirk's the captain so Spock is basically ignoring him and starting up a discussion with him ...
Anyway, my two - no ST-background - cents ...
That’s a great point about Spock - they definitely have different approaches to a lot of situations and conflicts are inevitable. See also: Riker and Jellico.
I think it works for Kirk and Spock because not only is Spock the first officer (and therefore the person with the greatest responsibility to provide alternative courses of action to his captain, something other XOs have done over the years), he and Kirk are close friends and have a great respect for and understanding of each other.
While Burnham and Saru certainly are familiar with one another, Lorca and Pike don’t know either of them nearly as well and it’s harder to justify why they are so happy to break protocol other than to say the writers are just plain ignorant.
Now you are just splitting hairs. I do not believe Saru ever broke protocol and Lorca encouraged strength and doing whatever it took to win and Pike encouraged everyone contributing ideas regardless of rank so Burnham was following the protocol established by those captains.
Bzzzzzt! Sorry, wrong answer, but thank you for playing!
You obviously haven't watched all of S2 Disco. In Ep6, Saru goes completely AGAINST Pike's orders and beams down to his home world to set right what he views as wrong. Not only disobeying Pike's orders but Starfleet General Order One as well! His actions had a positive outcome, but definitely court martial offenses. When Burnham did essentially the same thing against Georgiou, she did have a court martial and sentenced as a traitor and got prison time.
I agree the writers got some liberties for S2, which I think they were simply trying (perhaps too hard) to make up for all the production faux pas in S1.
Yes, Saru disobeyed Pike's order and broke the Prime Directive. But that's been standard throughout Trek. The main characters usually get a slap on the wrist/warning since what they did turned out to be right.
Burnham committed mutiny. That's much worse than what Saru did.
And she knocked her captain out
Well clearly she didn't because Georgiou immediately came out of the captain's ready room. So that is only attempted knocking her captain out. And to that Burnham is quite guilty because who trained on Vulcan cannot do a proper Vulcan nerve pinch? That was just embarassing and clearly Sarek failed her in her training.
She did slump to the floor unconscious. It just wasn’t did very long
To be honest ... as someone who's hardly seen any ST at all, just snippets here and there ...
I've always felt that ST was about space exploration, which is why there is equal weight to diplomacy, science, engineering, commanding people and aggression when required. There is space for crew to act if they have a unique insight into a situation (either through intelligence, knowledge or through a trait they might have because they might be of alien nature (e.g. Saru and "feeling" danger)) and crew will be asked to voice their opinion even if they aren't in command (e.g. an engineer asked for advice, or a diplomat on how to approach an alien culture) - see it more along the lines of a Dutch "poldermodel".
e.g. You can see a Tardigrade as a hostile being and want to neutralise it (e.g. Landry) or to try to understand its emotions and form of communication (e.g. Burnham and Stamets) or to try and utilise the greater for overal benefit (e.g. Lorca). Stamets is upset about proceedings (the military duties assigned to the ship) but there is dialogue between him and Lorca and in the end he does continue to work towards getting the
I thought that the Mirror universe embodied not space exploration, but space conquest, which is why ST in that universe is much more agressive (militaristic) and doesn't put as much emphasis on e.g. a cultural attache or scientific discoveries.
Also ... correct me if I'm wrong here ... but from what I've seen of TOS ... Spock is ALWAYS (exaggeration) in conflict with Kirk about what action has to be taken ... just see the episode with the Horta, where Kirk wants to kill the Horta but Spock tells him not to attack it. Kirk's the captain so Spock is basically ignoring him and starting up a discussion with him ...
Anyway, my two - no ST-background - cents ...
That’s a great point about Spock - they definitely have different approaches to a lot of situations and conflicts are inevitable. See also: Riker and Jellico.
I think it works for Kirk and Spock because not only is Spock the first officer (and therefore the person with the greatest responsibility to provide alternative courses of action to his captain, something other XOs have done over the years), he and Kirk are close friends and have a great respect for and understanding of each other.
While Burnham and Saru certainly are familiar with one another, Lorca and Pike don’t know either of them nearly as well and it’s harder to justify why they are so happy to break protocol other than to say the writers are just plain ignorant.
Now you are just splitting hairs. I do not believe Saru ever broke protocol and Lorca encouraged strength and doing whatever it took to win and Pike encouraged everyone contributing ideas regardless of rank so Burnham was following the protocol established by those captains.
Bzzzzzt! Sorry, wrong answer, but thank you for playing!
You obviously haven't watched all of S2 Disco. In Ep6, Saru goes completely AGAINST Pike's orders and beams down to his home world to set right what he views as wrong. Not only disobeying Pike's orders but Starfleet General Order One as well! His actions had a positive outcome, but definitely court martial offenses. When Burnham did essentially the same thing against Georgiou, she did have a court martial and sentenced as a traitor and got prison time.
I agree the writers got some liberties for S2, which I think they were simply trying (perhaps too hard) to make up for all the production faux pas in S1.
Yes, Saru disobeyed Pike's order and broke the Prime Directive. But that's been standard throughout Trek. The main characters usually get a slap on the wrist/warning since what they did turned out to be right.
Burnham committed mutiny. That's much worse than what Saru did.
And she knocked her captain out
Well clearly she didn't because Georgiou immediately came out of the captain's ready room. So that is only attempted knocking her captain out. And to that Burnham is quite guilty because who trained on Vulcan cannot do a proper Vulcan nerve pinch? That was just embarassing and clearly Sarek failed her in her training.
She did slump to the floor unconscious. It just wasn’t did very long
That was what bothered me the most about that scene. Not attacking her commanding officer but doing it so poorly. Her brother Spock is a neck nerve pinching machine and yet Burnham cannot knock the person out, they just get right back up, grab a phaser and rush in. That would not have even lasted a ten count in a boxing match.
In "Peak Performance", Captain Picard states, "Starfleet is not a military organization, its purpose is exploration."
🖖
"A good officer has to respect the chain of command. Without it Starfleet would cease to function and we wouldn't stand a chance against our enemies." (Captain Leyton - USS Okinawa, DS9: "Paradise Lost")
In "Peak Performance", Captain Picard states, "Starfleet is not a military organization, its purpose is exploration."
🖖
"A good officer has to respect the chain of command. Without it Starfleet would cease to function and we wouldn't stand a chance against our enemies." (Captain Leyton - USS Okinawa, DS9: "Paradise Lost")
That's a poor choice of source to quote I'd reckon ... say one thing and do the opposite, reminds me of some politicians in our times.
Judge a person not by their words but by their actions seems a good fit there.
I’d argue Starfleet may not be a military organization in terms of its purpose (exploration vs fighting) but it *is* a military organization by structure. It is explicitly set up that way. We can argue around the edges, but there’s enough supporting evidence from TOS to VOY that the structure, rules, etc, are quite similar to military organizations we know today, even if the primary mission is different.
I’d also argue that saying Starfleet’s main mission is exploration is an aspirational goal. Sure, there’s a lot of exploration, but when there a war going on, who fights those wars? Starfleet. So to say they’re not a fighting organization is a bit disingenuous on Picard’s part. Picard may have his own ideas, but I’m sure not all of the other Starfleet captains would agree with him.
Starfleet is not a military organisation. It is a scientific research and diplomatic body.
Although the duties of the Enterprise may include some military responsibilities, the primary purpose of the Enterprise — as with all Starfleet vessels is to expand the body of human knowledge.
In practice this means that our armaments and militarism have been de-emphasized over the previous series and very much de-emphasized over the movies. We will not see saluting. We may hear the word "sir", but it is extended as the same kind of courtesy used by junior and senior officers on civilian airliners. It is traditional, however, to use ship's ranks on the bridge, an acknowledgment of the naval heritage of Starfleet.
I think that’s aspirational on Gene’s part. Who fights the wars, when there is a war? Largely, Starfleet. I think you could argue that Starfleet’s primary *peacetime* mission is exploration, and not a “force in readiness”. But when there is a war, Starfleet fights it, at least in terms of space battles. There are separate ground forces alluded to in the various Star Treks, so I do not think they are the only/exclusive military organization, but they are arguably the largest and most important.
And if your wartime mission is to fight wars, then the entire force needs to be educated and in readiness at all times to fight those wars. At Wolf 359, many of the ships were taken from whatever they were doing, and put on the front line. Therefore, your personnel need to have (at least!) a minimum level of combat training and combat readiness. You can’t have the crew of a starship not know what they’re doing in regards to tactics, weaponry, etc, because that’s a recipe to get a lot of people killed in a hurry.
I will certainly buy that in peacetime, the military rules are *relaxed*, but even in peacetime, Starfleet has things like court-martials, which argues against it being a civilian organization. (Court-martials are legal action taken through military-exclusive courts—under the argument that a military is a unique organization that needs the flexibility to make and enforce its own rules.)
Again, I think the bit about Starfleet being primarily an exploration/scientific organization is an aspirational goal, and it may shift *some* of the focus of Starfleet in peacetime, but push come to shove, Starfleet is a military organization that is going to be called into action in the event of any sort of armed conflict, and certainly in an armed conflict, strict military rules *must* apply—you can’t be arguing with your orders, or decide in the middle of battle that fighting isn’t really your thing.
So if those rules have to apply during wartime, I’d argue that those rules-or at least a version of them-must apply during peacetime as well, or you’d have a schizophrenic organization with peacetime members wholly unprepared to function in combat. And when war comes, as it may in a moment, you might have to re-train (or get rid of) a substantial portion of the crew who can’t hack it in a wartime environment. How much sense would that make for the Federation?
Zero. It would leave them dangerously unprepared and a target for their enemies.
So, again, I’d argue that while the rhetoric on Starfleet’s purpose may be lofty, the nitty gritty truth is that they’re still a military organization, and they have to be that way, unless/until the Federation decides to start an organization that would replace Starfleet ships/personnel in wartime. But I’d argue this would make no sense, as it represents a huge duplication of effort, so I don’t see that happening.
I think you can see some of this argument taking place in the background during DS9’s run, with certain segments of Starfleet knowing that they’d be woefully unprepared in case of a war.
At any rate, getting back to the core point: Discovery, even with the leniency I am willing to extend about peacetime/wartime, and Starfleet relaxing their rules somewhat, is still ludicrous and immersion-breaking in terms of how they sometimes have the characters act more like they’re working at some sort of tech startup. Research (and heck, some of this is common sense!) about a basic topic that pertains to your show is not too much to ask for.
I agree with @marschallin. Starfleet is both a military organization and an exploratory organization. This has held true from the first season of the original series to the most recent season of Discovery. The aspirational goal, the one most Starfleet officers wished they could follow all the time, was embodied by the Enterprise's mission:
"To explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and civilizations, to boldly go where no man/one has gone before."
But, when the chips are down (which seems to happen an awful lot), Starfleet functions as the Naval Forces of the United Federation of Planets. There is a clear chain of command. Orders are given and expected to be obeyed. Federation security supersedes all other missions (such as exploration and diplomacy). My favorite example of this, where an admiral essentially orders a Starfleet captain to commit genocide if the opportunity arises, occurs on Stardate 46984.6:
Admiral Alynna Nechayev: (hard) "Your priority is to safeguard the lives of Federation citizens... not to wrestle with your conscience. Now I want to make it clear that if you have a similar opportunity in the future... an opportunity to destroy the Borg... you are under orders to take advantage of it. Is that understood?"
I think that’s aspirational on Gene’s part. Who fights the wars, when there is a war? Largely, Starfleet. I think you could argue that Starfleet’s primary *peacetime* mission is exploration, and not a “force in readiness”. But when there is a war, Starfleet fights it, at least in terms of space battles. There are separate ground forces alluded to in the various Star Treks, so I do not think they are the only/exclusive military organization, but they are arguably the largest and most important.
And if your wartime mission is to fight wars, then the entire force needs to be educated and in readiness at all times to fight those wars. At Wolf 359, many of the ships were taken from whatever they were doing, and put on the front line. Therefore, your personnel need to have (at least!) a minimum level of combat training and combat readiness. You can’t have the crew of a starship not know what they’re doing in regards to tactics, weaponry, etc, because that’s a recipe to get a lot of people killed in a hurry.
I will certainly buy that in peacetime, the military rules are *relaxed*, but even in peacetime, Starfleet has things like court-martials, which argues against it being a civilian organization. (Court-martials are legal action taken through military-exclusive courts—under the argument that a military is a unique organization that needs the flexibility to make and enforce its own rules.)
Again, I think the bit about Starfleet being primarily an exploration/scientific organization is an aspirational goal, and it may shift *some* of the focus of Starfleet in peacetime, but push come to shove, Starfleet is a military organization that is going to be called into action in the event of any sort of armed conflict, and certainly in an armed conflict, strict military rules *must* apply—you can’t be arguing with your orders, or decide in the middle of battle that fighting isn’t really your thing.
So if those rules have to apply during wartime, I’d argue that those rules-or at least a version of them-must apply during peacetime as well, or you’d have a schizophrenic organization with peacetime members wholly unprepared to function in combat. And when war comes, as it may in a moment, you might have to re-train (or get rid of) a substantial portion of the crew who can’t hack it in a wartime environment. How much sense would that make for the Federation?
Zero. It would leave them dangerously unprepared and a target for their enemies.
So, again, I’d argue that while the rhetoric on Starfleet’s purpose may be lofty, the nitty gritty truth is that they’re still a military organization, and they have to be that way, unless/until the Federation decides to start an organization that would replace Starfleet ships/personnel in wartime. But I’d argue this would make no sense, as it represents a huge duplication of effort, so I don’t see that happening.
I think you can see some of this argument taking place in the background during DS9’s run, with certain segments of Starfleet knowing that they’d be woefully unprepared in case of a war.
At any rate, getting back to the core point: Discovery, even with the leniency I am willing to extend about peacetime/wartime, and Starfleet relaxing their rules somewhat, is still ludicrous and immersion-breaking in terms of how they sometimes have the characters act more like they’re working at some sort of tech startup. Research (and heck, some of this is common sense!) about a basic topic that pertains to your show is not too much to ask for.
Fantastic explanation. Not only did you explain very well the importance of combat readiness for survival, but also how adherence to a chain of command and military discipline in training is critical to combat effectiveness. Encouraging crew to behave significantly differently in peacetime would invite disaster in war. This is psychological training for an extremely high stress environment whose importance for training in advance can't be understated.
Clearly, as much as Starfleet wants to stress their primary objective is NOT war, they are very clearly a military organization or they would fail to protect their populace.
To be honest ... as someone who's hardly seen any ST at all, just snippets here and there ...
I've always felt that ST was about space exploration, which is why there is equal weight to diplomacy, science, engineering, commanding people and aggression when required. There is space for crew to act if they have a unique insight into a situation (either through intelligence, knowledge or through a trait they might have because they might be of alien nature (e.g. Saru and "feeling" danger)) and crew will be asked to voice their opinion even if they aren't in command (e.g. an engineer asked for advice, or a diplomat on how to approach an alien culture) - see it more along the lines of a Dutch "poldermodel".
e.g. You can see a Tardigrade as a hostile being and want to neutralise it (e.g. Landry) or to try to understand its emotions and form of communication (e.g. Burnham and Stamets) or to try and utilise the greater for overal benefit (e.g. Lorca). Stamets is upset about proceedings (the military duties assigned to the ship) but there is dialogue between him and Lorca and in the end he does continue to work towards getting the
I thought that the Mirror universe embodied not space exploration, but space conquest, which is why ST in that universe is much more agressive (militaristic) and doesn't put as much emphasis on e.g. a cultural attache or scientific discoveries.
Also ... correct me if I'm wrong here ... but from what I've seen of TOS ... Spock is ALWAYS (exaggeration) in conflict with Kirk about what action has to be taken ... just see the episode with the Horta, where Kirk wants to kill the Horta but Spock tells him not to attack it. Kirk's the captain so Spock is basically ignoring him and starting up a discussion with him ...
Anyway, my two - no ST-background - cents ...
That’s a great point about Spock - they definitely have different approaches to a lot of situations and conflicts are inevitable. See also: Riker and Jellico.
I think it works for Kirk and Spock because not only is Spock the first officer (and therefore the person with the greatest responsibility to provide alternative courses of action to his captain, something other XOs have done over the years), he and Kirk are close friends and have a great respect for and understanding of each other.
While Burnham and Saru certainly are familiar with one another, Lorca and Pike don’t know either of them nearly as well and it’s harder to justify why they are so happy to break protocol other than to say the writers are just plain ignorant.
Now you are just splitting hairs. I do not believe Saru ever broke protocol and Lorca encouraged strength and doing whatever it took to win and Pike encouraged everyone contributing ideas regardless of rank so Burnham was following the protocol established by those captains.
Bzzzzzt! Sorry, wrong answer, but thank you for playing!
You obviously haven't watched all of S2 Disco. In Ep6, Saru goes completely AGAINST Pike's orders and beams down to his home world to set right what he views as wrong. Not only disobeying Pike's orders but Starfleet General Order One as well! His actions had a positive outcome, but definitely court martial offenses. When Burnham did essentially the same thing against Georgiou, she did have a court martial and sentenced as a traitor and got prison time.
I agree the writers got some liberties for S2, which I think they were simply trying (perhaps too hard) to make up for all the production faux pas in S1.
You should rewatch the episode.
Pike ordered Saru off the bridge. He did not order that Saru could not surrender himself to save the Discovery and his people on Kaminar. Pike only said that Saru was under his protection and that he would not hand Saru over not that Saru could not hand himself over. I do not believe Saru broke General Order One either. Kelpiens knew of warp travel, Starfleet and Saru were allowed to communicate with them. It was the Ba'ul that grabbed Saru's sister and took her to their ship and thus revealed the truth of their lie.
I agree with @marschallin. Starfleet is both a military organization and an exploratory organization. This has held true from the first season of the original series to the most recent season of Discovery. The aspirational goal, the one most Starfleet officers wished they could follow all the time, was embodied by the Enterprise's mission:
"To explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and civilizations, to boldly go where no man/one has gone before."
But, when the chips are down (which seems to happen an awful lot), Starfleet functions as the Naval Forces of the United Federation of Planets. There is a clear chain of command. Orders are given and expected to be obeyed. Federation security supersedes all other missions (such as exploration and diplomacy). My favorite example of this, where an admiral essentially orders a Starfleet captain to commit genocide if the opportunity arises, occurs on Stardate 46984.6:
Admiral Alynna Nechayev: (hard) "Your priority is to safeguard the lives of Federation citizens... not to wrestle with your conscience. Now I want to make it clear that if you have a similar opportunity in the future... an opportunity to destroy the Borg... you are under orders to take advantage of it. Is that understood?"
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: (tight) "Yes, sir."
Great point about Enterprise - Archer and really everyone on board was *so* excited to be out on missions of peaceful exploration...and then within a few episodes realized that they did actually need their phase cannons installed after all. Never mind Archer’s comments after the end of the Xindi crisis, while touring the Columbia, about not just arming the ship but also getting some ground troops assigned as well.
This discussion reminds me of my desire to see a 6- to 10-part series focusing on the Earth-Romulan war. Those behind Discovery clearly wanted to add a little more grit to Trek, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing...a war-themed miniseries would be a phenomenal place to do exactly that. Get Idris Elba, Brian Thompson, Robert Foxworth, and some Enterprise main cast members together with some new faces, tell the story of how the war started (picking up from the aftermath of Valdore’s drone project), how it finished, and how the UFP was finally born. At the end it could show the MACOs being integrated into Starfleet, for better and for worse...it’d be great, I am sure.
I agree with @marschallin. Starfleet is both a military organization and an exploratory organization. This has held true from the first season of the original series to the most recent season of Discovery. The aspirational goal, the one most Starfleet officers wished they could follow all the time, was embodied by the Enterprise's mission:
"To explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and civilizations, to boldly go where no man/one has gone before."
But, when the chips are down (which seems to happen an awful lot), Starfleet functions as the Naval Forces of the United Federation of Planets. There is a clear chain of command. Orders are given and expected to be obeyed. Federation security supersedes all other missions (such as exploration and diplomacy). My favorite example of this, where an admiral essentially orders a Starfleet captain to commit genocide if the opportunity arises, occurs on Stardate 46984.6:
Admiral Alynna Nechayev: (hard) "Your priority is to safeguard the lives of Federation citizens... not to wrestle with your conscience. Now I want to make it clear that if you have a similar opportunity in the future... an opportunity to destroy the Borg... you are under orders to take advantage of it. Is that understood?"
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: (tight) "Yes, sir."
To the point, I always found Nechayev to be one of the best/most realistic recurring characters on the show. To someone who isn’t paying attention, she can look like a stone-cold witch, a political animal completely out of touch with what’s actually going on out there in space, on the front lines. But actually, nearly every one of her decisions (if you sit and think about them and ignore the other characters’ whining) are made for what she perceives is the overall good of the Federation and the people in it. And sometimes those decisions are seemingly hard and unfeeling, but they’re all pretty reasonable in terms of that goal, whether or not you agree with her in how to get there. And here and there, you get tiny moments where you can see cracks in the facade, showing you that Nechayev struggles with some of these decisions. She’s not inhuman—but she’s the admiral, so once the decision is made, she has to project confidence and assurance, so that’s what she does.
I read afterwards that the actress who plays Nechayev grew up in a military family, and used that knowledge in her portrayal of the role. I think it shows.
This one got a little scary. I was about 1215 or so with about 45 minutes to go. Not long after I got called out of my office and didn't get back to check on it until after the event ended. I squeaked it out at 1481 with 477,328. 1500 was 475,518.
That is a low. The number for 1500 rank is usually over 500k. I think it is usually over 550k. I know Skirmish next event and quality of legendary probably is the reason.
This one got a little scary. I was about 1215 or so with about 45 minutes to go. Not long after I got called out of my office and didn't get back to check on it until after the event ended. I squeaked it out at 1481 with 477,328. 1500 was 475,518.
That is a low. The number for 1500 rank is usually over 500k. I think it is usually over 550k. I know Skirmish next event and quality of legendary probably is the reason.
Yes, top 200 was lower than it usually is as well.
I agree with @marschallin. Starfleet is both a military organization and an exploratory organization. This has held true from the first season of the original series to the most recent season of Discovery. The aspirational goal, the one most Starfleet officers wished they could follow all the time, was embodied by the Enterprise's mission:
"To explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and civilizations, to boldly go where no man/one has gone before."
But, when the chips are down (which seems to happen an awful lot), Starfleet functions as the Naval Forces of the United Federation of Planets. There is a clear chain of command. Orders are given and expected to be obeyed. Federation security supersedes all other missions (such as exploration and diplomacy). My favorite example of this, where an admiral essentially orders a Starfleet captain to commit genocide if the opportunity arises, occurs on Stardate 46984.6:
Admiral Alynna Nechayev: (hard) "Your priority is to safeguard the lives of Federation citizens... not to wrestle with your conscience. Now I want to make it clear that if you have a similar opportunity in the future... an opportunity to destroy the Borg... you are under orders to take advantage of it. Is that understood?"
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: (tight) "Yes, sir."
To the point, I always found Nechayev to be one of the best/most realistic recurring characters on the show. To someone who isn’t paying attention, she can look like a stone-cold witch, a political animal completely out of touch with what’s actually going on out there in space, on the front lines. But actually, nearly every one of her decisions (if you sit and think about them and ignore the other characters’ whining) are made for what she perceives is the overall good of the Federation and the people in it. And sometimes those decisions are seemingly hard and unfeeling, but they’re all pretty reasonable in terms of that goal, whether or not you agree with her in how to get there. And here and there, you get tiny moments where you can see cracks in the facade, showing you that Nechayev struggles with some of these decisions. She’s not inhuman—but she’s the admiral, so once the decision is made, she has to project confidence and assurance, so that’s what she does.
I read afterwards that the actress who plays Nechayev grew up in a military family, and used that knowledge in her portrayal of the role. I think it shows.
I couldn't agree more. As a young teenager, when I first watched those episodes, I saw her as antagonistic to Picard and, therefore, another admiral-off-the-rails. Later, I realized she was the most level-headed flag officer on the series. I'm sorry now they didn't keep her as the main flag officer overseeing DS9 for the entirety of that show -- especially given her expertise with the Maquis and the Cardassians. She would have been better than Admiral Ross.
I agree with @marschallin. Starfleet is both a military organization and an exploratory organization. This has held true from the first season of the original series to the most recent season of Discovery. The aspirational goal, the one most Starfleet officers wished they could follow all the time, was embodied by the Enterprise's mission:
"To explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and civilizations, to boldly go where no man/one has gone before."
But, when the chips are down (which seems to happen an awful lot), Starfleet functions as the Naval Forces of the United Federation of Planets. There is a clear chain of command. Orders are given and expected to be obeyed. Federation security supersedes all other missions (such as exploration and diplomacy). My favorite example of this, where an admiral essentially orders a Starfleet captain to commit genocide if the opportunity arises, occurs on Stardate 46984.6:
Admiral Alynna Nechayev: (hard) "Your priority is to safeguard the lives of Federation citizens... not to wrestle with your conscience. Now I want to make it clear that if you have a similar opportunity in the future... an opportunity to destroy the Borg... you are under orders to take advantage of it. Is that understood?"
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: (tight) "Yes, sir."
To the point, I always found Nechayev to be one of the best/most realistic recurring characters on the show. To someone who isn’t paying attention, she can look like a stone-cold witch, a political animal completely out of touch with what’s actually going on out there in space, on the front lines. But actually, nearly every one of her decisions (if you sit and think about them and ignore the other characters’ whining) are made for what she perceives is the overall good of the Federation and the people in it. And sometimes those decisions are seemingly hard and unfeeling, but they’re all pretty reasonable in terms of that goal, whether or not you agree with her in how to get there. And here and there, you get tiny moments where you can see cracks in the facade, showing you that Nechayev struggles with some of these decisions. She’s not inhuman—but she’s the admiral, so once the decision is made, she has to project confidence and assurance, so that’s what she does.
I read afterwards that the actress who plays Nechayev grew up in a military family, and used that knowledge in her portrayal of the role. I think it shows.
I couldn't agree more. As a young teenager, when I first watched those episodes, I saw her as antagonistic to Picard and, therefore, another admiral-off-the-rails. Later, I realized she was the most level-headed flag officer on the series. I'm sorry now they didn't keep her as the main flag officer overseeing DS9 for the entirety of that show -- especially given her expertise with the Maquis and the Cardassians. She would have been better than Admiral Ross.
That could be the making of an interesting novella or even a full-length novel: how Section 31 struggled to replace the brilliant, tough Admiral Nechayev with someone a little more...flexible morality.
I agree with @marschallin. Starfleet is both a military organization and an exploratory organization. This has held true from the first season of the original series to the most recent season of Discovery. The aspirational goal, the one most Starfleet officers wished they could follow all the time, was embodied by the Enterprise's mission:
"To explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and civilizations, to boldly go where no man/one has gone before."
But, when the chips are down (which seems to happen an awful lot), Starfleet functions as the Naval Forces of the United Federation of Planets. There is a clear chain of command. Orders are given and expected to be obeyed. Federation security supersedes all other missions (such as exploration and diplomacy). My favorite example of this, where an admiral essentially orders a Starfleet captain to commit genocide if the opportunity arises, occurs on Stardate 46984.6:
Admiral Alynna Nechayev: (hard) "Your priority is to safeguard the lives of Federation citizens... not to wrestle with your conscience. Now I want to make it clear that if you have a similar opportunity in the future... an opportunity to destroy the Borg... you are under orders to take advantage of it. Is that understood?"
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: (tight) "Yes, sir."
To the point, I always found Nechayev to be one of the best/most realistic recurring characters on the show. To someone who isn’t paying attention, she can look like a stone-cold witch, a political animal completely out of touch with what’s actually going on out there in space, on the front lines. But actually, nearly every one of her decisions (if you sit and think about them and ignore the other characters’ whining) are made for what she perceives is the overall good of the Federation and the people in it. And sometimes those decisions are seemingly hard and unfeeling, but they’re all pretty reasonable in terms of that goal, whether or not you agree with her in how to get there. And here and there, you get tiny moments where you can see cracks in the facade, showing you that Nechayev struggles with some of these decisions. She’s not inhuman—but she’s the admiral, so once the decision is made, she has to project confidence and assurance, so that’s what she does.
I read afterwards that the actress who plays Nechayev grew up in a military family, and used that knowledge in her portrayal of the role. I think it shows.
I couldn't agree more. As a young teenager, when I first watched those episodes, I saw her as antagonistic to Picard and, therefore, another admiral-off-the-rails. Later, I realized she was the most level-headed flag officer on the series. I'm sorry now they didn't keep her as the main flag officer overseeing DS9 for the entirety of that show -- especially given her expertise with the Maquis and the Cardassians. She would have been better than Admiral Ross.
That could be the making of an interesting novella or even a full-length novel: how Section 31 struggled to replace the brilliant, tough Admiral Nechayev with someone a little more...flexible morality.
Useless in Gauntlet & Arena
#5 dip base and #5 cmd/dip pair, and as long as the Discovery train keeps rolling, steady event work
#22 Voyage Score, right behind Mambo Picard who has similar skills but swapping secondary and tertiary. That being said, he's 170 points ahead of the next best option for his exact skill set - Professor Sato.
BUT, considering everyone got Mambo Picard free recently and a lot of people picked up Sato in the campaign, it's unlikely that Pike will make a significant improvement to anybody's roster - 4/5 Sato's base is 50% higher than 1/5 Pike, and an extra 150 points at 5/5. Likewise, for Pike to even be considered for Sato's voyage seat he'd have to be no more than one star behind. And even if Sato's busy, recent freebee Mambo Picard (and former Mega Surak, if you've been around that long) can step in.
I agree with @marschallin. Starfleet is both a military organization and an exploratory organization. This has held true from the first season of the original series to the most recent season of Discovery. The aspirational goal, the one most Starfleet officers wished they could follow all the time, was embodied by the Enterprise's mission:
"To explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and civilizations, to boldly go where no man/one has gone before."
But, when the chips are down (which seems to happen an awful lot), Starfleet functions as the Naval Forces of the United Federation of Planets. There is a clear chain of command. Orders are given and expected to be obeyed. Federation security supersedes all other missions (such as exploration and diplomacy). My favorite example of this, where an admiral essentially orders a Starfleet captain to commit genocide if the opportunity arises, occurs on Stardate 46984.6:
Admiral Alynna Nechayev: (hard) "Your priority is to safeguard the lives of Federation citizens... not to wrestle with your conscience. Now I want to make it clear that if you have a similar opportunity in the future... an opportunity to destroy the Borg... you are under orders to take advantage of it. Is that understood?"
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: (tight) "Yes, sir."
To the point, I always found Nechayev to be one of the best/most realistic recurring characters on the show. To someone who isn’t paying attention, she can look like a stone-cold witch, a political animal completely out of touch with what’s actually going on out there in space, on the front lines. But actually, nearly every one of her decisions (if you sit and think about them and ignore the other characters’ whining) are made for what she perceives is the overall good of the Federation and the people in it. And sometimes those decisions are seemingly hard and unfeeling, but they’re all pretty reasonable in terms of that goal, whether or not you agree with her in how to get there. And here and there, you get tiny moments where you can see cracks in the facade, showing you that Nechayev struggles with some of these decisions. She’s not inhuman—but she’s the admiral, so once the decision is made, she has to project confidence and assurance, so that’s what she does.
I read afterwards that the actress who plays Nechayev grew up in a military family, and used that knowledge in her portrayal of the role. I think it shows.
I couldn't agree more. As a young teenager, when I first watched those episodes, I saw her as antagonistic to Picard and, therefore, another admiral-off-the-rails. Later, I realized she was the most level-headed flag officer on the series. I'm sorry now they didn't keep her as the main flag officer overseeing DS9 for the entirety of that show -- especially given her expertise with the Maquis and the Cardassians. She would have been better than Admiral Ross.
That could be the making of an interesting novella or even a full-length novel: how Section 31 struggled to replace the brilliant, tough Admiral Nechayev with someone a little more...flexible morality.
Wait, she was in Section 31?
No, but there's speculation about Admiral Ross. From Memory Alpha:
Admiral Ross aided the covert Federation organization Section 31 by helping their agents infiltrate a conference on Romulus, in order to place an operative named Koval at the highest levels of the Romulan government.
So, presumably, the novella would be how Section 31 got Nechayev shunted aside so that Ross could take command of the sector (and the war).
Comments
Hm since I realized what reruns are (which was quite some months ago) there had never been a switch between threshold and ranked 4*. I expect Dukat in the threshold again.
They have switched the SR's before during reruns, but I think they keep it the same more often than not. I expect they will be the same as last time, but I won't be taking any actions in advance.
Now you are just splitting hairs. I do not believe Saru ever broke protocol and Lorca encouraged strength and doing whatever it took to win and Pike encouraged everyone contributing ideas regardless of rank so Burnham was following the protocol established by those captains. I would also remind you that Captains routinely have disobeyed Starfleet's and Admirals' orders and that if Captain Picard had not disobeyed Admiral Hayes' orders that the Enterpise not engage in the fight with the Borg Cube in First Contact then Earth would have been assimilated. And how did Data respond when Captain Picard said he was defying the orders from Starfleet?
Or in TNG episode Redemption II when Data disobeys Captain Picard's orders to pull back the U.S.S. Sutherland and by disobeying Picard's orders Data is able to expose the Romulan plot to otherthrow the Klingon government and Picard tells Data "the claim 'I was only following orders' has been used to justify too many tragedies in our history. Starfleet doesn't want officers who will blindly follow orders without analysing the situation."
Bzzzzzt! Sorry, wrong answer, but thank you for playing!
You obviously haven't watched all of S2 Disco. In Ep6, Saru goes completely AGAINST Pike's orders and beams down to his home world to set right what he views as wrong. Not only disobeying Pike's orders but Starfleet General Order One as well! His actions had a positive outcome, but definitely court martial offenses. When Burnham did essentially the same thing against Georgiou, she did have a court martial and sentenced as a traitor and got prison time.
I agree the writers got some liberties for S2, which I think they were simply trying (perhaps too hard) to make up for all the production faux pas in S1.
Yes, Saru disobeyed Pike's order and broke the Prime Directive. But that's been standard throughout Trek. The main characters usually get a slap on the wrist/warning since what they did turned out to be right.
Burnham committed mutiny. That's much worse than what Saru did.
And she knocked her captain out
Well clearly she didn't because Georgiou immediately came out of the captain's ready room. So that is only attempted knocking her captain out. And to that Burnham is quite guilty because who trained on Vulcan cannot do a proper Vulcan nerve pinch? That was just embarassing and clearly Sarek failed her in her training.
In "Peak Performance", Captain Picard states, "Starfleet is not a military organization, its purpose is exploration."
🖖
She did slump to the floor unconscious. It just wasn’t did very long
That was what bothered me the most about that scene. Not attacking her commanding officer but doing it so poorly. Her brother Spock is a neck nerve pinching machine and yet Burnham cannot knock the person out, they just get right back up, grab a phaser and rush in. That would not have even lasted a ten count in a boxing match.
"A good officer has to respect the chain of command. Without it Starfleet would cease to function and we wouldn't stand a chance against our enemies." (Captain Leyton - USS Okinawa, DS9: "Paradise Lost")
That's a poor choice of source to quote I'd reckon ... say one thing and do the opposite, reminds me of some politicians in our times.
Judge a person not by their words but by their actions seems a good fit there.
I’d also argue that saying Starfleet’s main mission is exploration is an aspirational goal. Sure, there’s a lot of exploration, but when there a war going on, who fights those wars? Starfleet. So to say they’re not a fighting organization is a bit disingenuous on Picard’s part. Picard may have his own ideas, but I’m sure not all of the other Starfleet captains would agree with him.
"There is established a Starfleet as the armed peacekeeping forces of the United Federation of Planets." more here
And from Gene Roddenberry (Star Trek Next Generation Bible)
So discussion can go on
And if your wartime mission is to fight wars, then the entire force needs to be educated and in readiness at all times to fight those wars. At Wolf 359, many of the ships were taken from whatever they were doing, and put on the front line. Therefore, your personnel need to have (at least!) a minimum level of combat training and combat readiness. You can’t have the crew of a starship not know what they’re doing in regards to tactics, weaponry, etc, because that’s a recipe to get a lot of people killed in a hurry.
I will certainly buy that in peacetime, the military rules are *relaxed*, but even in peacetime, Starfleet has things like court-martials, which argues against it being a civilian organization. (Court-martials are legal action taken through military-exclusive courts—under the argument that a military is a unique organization that needs the flexibility to make and enforce its own rules.)
Again, I think the bit about Starfleet being primarily an exploration/scientific organization is an aspirational goal, and it may shift *some* of the focus of Starfleet in peacetime, but push come to shove, Starfleet is a military organization that is going to be called into action in the event of any sort of armed conflict, and certainly in an armed conflict, strict military rules *must* apply—you can’t be arguing with your orders, or decide in the middle of battle that fighting isn’t really your thing.
So if those rules have to apply during wartime, I’d argue that those rules-or at least a version of them-must apply during peacetime as well, or you’d have a schizophrenic organization with peacetime members wholly unprepared to function in combat. And when war comes, as it may in a moment, you might have to re-train (or get rid of) a substantial portion of the crew who can’t hack it in a wartime environment. How much sense would that make for the Federation?
Zero. It would leave them dangerously unprepared and a target for their enemies.
So, again, I’d argue that while the rhetoric on Starfleet’s purpose may be lofty, the nitty gritty truth is that they’re still a military organization, and they have to be that way, unless/until the Federation decides to start an organization that would replace Starfleet ships/personnel in wartime. But I’d argue this would make no sense, as it represents a huge duplication of effort, so I don’t see that happening.
I think you can see some of this argument taking place in the background during DS9’s run, with certain segments of Starfleet knowing that they’d be woefully unprepared in case of a war.
At any rate, getting back to the core point: Discovery, even with the leniency I am willing to extend about peacetime/wartime, and Starfleet relaxing their rules somewhat, is still ludicrous and immersion-breaking in terms of how they sometimes have the characters act more like they’re working at some sort of tech startup. Research (and heck, some of this is common sense!) about a basic topic that pertains to your show is not too much to ask for.
"To explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and civilizations, to boldly go where no man/one has gone before."
But, when the chips are down (which seems to happen an awful lot), Starfleet functions as the Naval Forces of the United Federation of Planets. There is a clear chain of command. Orders are given and expected to be obeyed. Federation security supersedes all other missions (such as exploration and diplomacy). My favorite example of this, where an admiral essentially orders a Starfleet captain to commit genocide if the opportunity arises, occurs on Stardate 46984.6:
Admiral Alynna Nechayev: (hard) "Your priority is to safeguard the lives of Federation citizens... not to wrestle with your conscience. Now I want to make it clear that if you have a similar opportunity in the future... an opportunity to destroy the Borg... you are under orders to take advantage of it. Is that understood?"
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: (tight) "Yes, sir."
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Fantastic explanation. Not only did you explain very well the importance of combat readiness for survival, but also how adherence to a chain of command and military discipline in training is critical to combat effectiveness. Encouraging crew to behave significantly differently in peacetime would invite disaster in war. This is psychological training for an extremely high stress environment whose importance for training in advance can't be understated.
Clearly, as much as Starfleet wants to stress their primary objective is NOT war, they are very clearly a military organization or they would fail to protect their populace.
You should rewatch the episode.
Great point about Enterprise - Archer and really everyone on board was *so* excited to be out on missions of peaceful exploration...and then within a few episodes realized that they did actually need their phase cannons installed after all. Never mind Archer’s comments after the end of the Xindi crisis, while touring the Columbia, about not just arming the ship but also getting some ground troops assigned as well.
This discussion reminds me of my desire to see a 6- to 10-part series focusing on the Earth-Romulan war. Those behind Discovery clearly wanted to add a little more grit to Trek, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing...a war-themed miniseries would be a phenomenal place to do exactly that. Get Idris Elba, Brian Thompson, Robert Foxworth, and some Enterprise main cast members together with some new faces, tell the story of how the war started (picking up from the aftermath of Valdore’s drone project), how it finished, and how the UFP was finally born. At the end it could show the MACOs being integrated into Starfleet, for better and for worse...it’d be great, I am sure.
To the point, I always found Nechayev to be one of the best/most realistic recurring characters on the show. To someone who isn’t paying attention, she can look like a stone-cold witch, a political animal completely out of touch with what’s actually going on out there in space, on the front lines. But actually, nearly every one of her decisions (if you sit and think about them and ignore the other characters’ whining) are made for what she perceives is the overall good of the Federation and the people in it. And sometimes those decisions are seemingly hard and unfeeling, but they’re all pretty reasonable in terms of that goal, whether or not you agree with her in how to get there. And here and there, you get tiny moments where you can see cracks in the facade, showing you that Nechayev struggles with some of these decisions. She’s not inhuman—but she’s the admiral, so once the decision is made, she has to project confidence and assurance, so that’s what she does.
I read afterwards that the actress who plays Nechayev grew up in a military family, and used that knowledge in her portrayal of the role. I think it shows.
That is a low. The number for 1500 rank is usually over 500k. I think it is usually over 550k. I know Skirmish next event and quality of legendary probably is the reason.
Yes, top 200 was lower than it usually is as well.
I couldn't agree more. As a young teenager, when I first watched those episodes, I saw her as antagonistic to Picard and, therefore, another admiral-off-the-rails. Later, I realized she was the most level-headed flag officer on the series. I'm sorry now they didn't keep her as the main flag officer overseeing DS9 for the entirety of that show -- especially given her expertise with the Maquis and the Cardassians. She would have been better than Admiral Ross.
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Good stats and skills on the new Pike with a voyage score of 3462.
That could be the making of an interesting novella or even a full-length novel: how Section 31 struggled to replace the brilliant, tough Admiral Nechayev with someone a little more...flexible morality.
Wait, she was in Section 31?
Useless in Gauntlet & Arena
#5 dip base and #5 cmd/dip pair, and as long as the Discovery train keeps rolling, steady event work
#22 Voyage Score, right behind Mambo Picard who has similar skills but swapping secondary and tertiary. That being said, he's 170 points ahead of the next best option for his exact skill set - Professor Sato.
BUT, considering everyone got Mambo Picard free recently and a lot of people picked up Sato in the campaign, it's unlikely that Pike will make a significant improvement to anybody's roster - 4/5 Sato's base is 50% higher than 1/5 Pike, and an extra 150 points at 5/5. Likewise, for Pike to even be considered for Sato's voyage seat he'd have to be no more than one star behind. And even if Sato's busy, recent freebee Mambo Picard (and former Mega Surak, if you've been around that long) can step in.
I didn’t think so. Perhaps Dirk was speaking on a prequel type situation
No, but there's speculation about Admiral Ross. From Memory Alpha:
So, presumably, the novella would be how Section 31 got Nechayev shunted aside so that Ross could take command of the sector (and the war).
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