There are a few problems here though.
1) Saving or spending is a stressor for many people. Essentially all of you guys have saved and so you would pass the marshmallow test. What about players who don't pass that test? This is a game, not life, they should not be punished for a lack of impulse control.
Life is about choices. That doesn't change because it's a game. All players have a choice with regards to honour — spend or save.
I think at this point, almost all players understand the pros and cons that come with both choices. I could understand your argument if the game was unplayable if you didn't follow one way or another. But it's not.
You can still play what I'll call "normally", and spend honour as you get it/as it is needed. You do so knowing full well that you are sacrificing the value that comes from saving until the honour sale.
Or, you can sacrifice short term benefits for long term gains. You get far more bang for your buck by waiting until a sale happens. The reward for the temporary setback of not being able to use your honour is a much greater benefit when you do. You do so knowing full well that you are sacrificing immediate gratification that comes from spending immediately.
That's entirely your call. No one forces you to choose one way or another. Therefore, I feel that it's a bit much to say one player type is being "punished". There are rewards and setbacks to both approaches.
You choose which ones are more important to you as an individual. That is no different than someone who prioritises one aspect of the game (say, voyages) over another. To say people are being "punished for a lack of impulse control" is a leap.
You could take that thought process further, and say, if they are so lacking in impulse control, why aren't they buying every single possible real money deal in sight? Because they are responsible for their actions, and know the benefits and costs.
If you can't control your "impulse" to spend a free made up currency, in a fictional game, I'm terrified to see how you handle actual real life situations, with real life consequences.
2) Being able to save is a sign of game 'wealth', ie you don't have any immediate needs, so you can afford to save. This describes my situation perfectly. I haven't run out of legendary citations since the last sale, so I have never even been tempted to use honor. What about newer players who have immediate needs? This whole process discriminates against have nots for the sake of giving haves even more.
You can make that argument, but I think that is very untrue. When I was in the earlier stages of the game, I often spent honour on things that I would never do so now. Trainers are a perfect example.
Did I do so because I was an earlier stage player? In part, yes. Did I do so knowing full well what I was sacrificing in the long term to do so? Also, yes.
Of course, players in the later stages are going to have advantages over newer ones. There is absolutely no way to change that, nor should there be. People put a lot of time and effort (and sometimes actual money) into reaching that point in the game. How is that discriminatory?
Should ever player have the exact same crew? What about ships? How about dilithium? Of course not. Is this discriminatory then, by your own argument? I would imagine you would say they are different, but I think most would disagree. The principle is the sale.
Some players like you have an abundance of cites. I do not. I could spend honour to get more, sacrificing my ability to maximise the Honour Sale.
Should I complain because you have an advantage over me? Of course not, because once again, I have a choice.
Some players have endless hordes of things like credits, which gave them a fundamental advantage during the Dabo Sale. Where was the uproar then? I didn't get to take advantage of that sale. In fact, losing the ad freebie cost me spins I would have normally used. Should I complain about that too? Did I not have a choice to save my credits for other things?
My point is that every player has different goals, resources, and strategies, which forces players to choose how to handle each situation individually. This is absolutely no different. To claim it's discriminatory is absurd.
3) The strategy from DBs side is to abuse a lack of player knowledge to get them to make poor decisions. Why do you so readily tolerate this behaviour? They could tell us, they just don't want to because they actively want people to make mistakes. That's not something you should be ok with.
This is probably the most patently untrue statement of the bunch. First of all, TP (DB no longer even exists) is not abusing players by running honour sales, any more than they would be by running literally any other sale!. Secondly, to use the word abuse to describe whatever you feel they are doing is ridiculous. It's hyperbolic at best, and libelous at worst.
Third, how is there a lack of player knowledge on this subject? They specifically said there would be an honour sale in March well in advance. It is also very common knowledge that honour sales happen, and roughly when. Even most newer players are aware of this.
You could make an argument that they could publicise the exact date in advance, but how is that any different than how most businesses handle sales?
I specifically asked you this question in response to your other over the top claims, and you chose to ignore it. I'll ask again, because I think this is a fundamental flaw to your whole argument.
I totally disagree with the consensus here. This situation does not affect me because I have tons of citations, so I don't even think about spending my honor.
However, I have seen the mental distress it is causing my fleet mates. Some have struggled saving the honor 'indefinitely', and even though they are now being rewarded I am not sure that that stress/relief payoff is healthy. Others were unable to save and now feel regret and this will likely alter their behaviour going forward putting them into the former category. This is just messing with people psychologically. We saw how people also direct these negative feelings at the game when the honor sales are delayed for so long. A lot of the negativity here after convergence day was in part driven by sour grapes over no honor sale.
In my view these sales are a terrible idea. They cause people to play inefficiently because they are so afraid of regret.
If they are to continue they *should* be placed on a regular schedule so that the planning becomes strategic instead of filled with uncertainty.
But genuinely I would prefer that they got rid of them altogether because I believe that they are unethical, and akin to psychological torture.
Respectfully, calling them unethical and comparing them to psychological torture seems like a bit of a stretch. Do you feel the same way about Black Friday/Boxing Day sales, or those like them?
Until you can answer that honestly, I feel your entire point is moot. How is an Honour Sale any different than those?
The whole process stinks and undermines the entire mechanic of the honor store. The longer this goes on more of the playerbase just saves for the next sale. Your whole defense is I want cheaper stuff. The game is worse for these sales, people are being made to regret their choices, and the sales strategy is basically awful. You support it because you are slightly better off. That's not cool, not cool at all.
I think you are way off base in this final point. While of course people who have more benefit more, this doesn't make the entire premise of a sale fundamentally flawed as a result.
The most likely alternative to Honour Sales would be to have the lower cost honour options eliminated entirely, with them being "full price" all the time. I fail to see how that would benefit anyone.
And to address your last point, my POV on the Honour Sales hasn't changed at all, from the time I couldn't afford to get anything, to now. This has nothing to do with status or stage of the game influencing my feelings. I'm guessing that would be accurate for a lot of other players as well.
You can make a case for a lot of other options to Honour Sales, up to, and including, making the discounting prices the new permanent one. But to disparage the entire concept, particularly in a way that uses highly charged terms like psychological torture, unethical and abuse, does no one any favours.
TL;DR — we all have choices to make, both in life, and in this game. As a wise man once said:
So a lot of what is going on here is that you want cheaper begolds and citations. Honestly, I am not arguing what the price should be, that seems like a separate argument. If you want cheaper stuff, that is totally reasonable.
There are a few problems here though.
1) Saving or spending is a stressor for many people. Essentially all of you guys have saved and so you would pass the marshmallow test. What about players who don't pass that test? This is a game, not life, they should not be punished for a lack of impulse control.
2) Being able to save is a sign of game 'wealth', ie you don't have any immediate needs, so you can afford to save. This describes my situation perfectly. I haven't run out of legendary citations since the last sale, so I have never even been tempted to use honor. What about newer players who have immediate needs? This whole process discriminates against have nots for the sake of giving haves even more.
3) The strategy from DBs side is to abuse a lack of player knowledge to get them to make poor decisions. Why do you so readily tolerate this behaviour? They could tell us, they just don't want to because they actively want people to make mistakes. That's not something you should be ok with.
The whole process stinks and undermines the entire mechanic of the honor store. The longer this goes on more of the playerbase just saves for the next sale. Your whole defense is I want cheaper stuff. The game is worse for these sales, people are being made to regret their choices, and the sales strategy is basically awful. You support it because you are slightly better off. That's not cool, not cool at all.
I don’t think it is unreasonable for players to yearn for cheaper deals. I also think that most players don’t support the honor sale because they are better off than other players. At that point, I think it’s about getting the most value for what limited currency you possess.
Sure, so argue for a cheaper basic price. I just want the other shenanigans to go away. Cheaper stuff for some is not worth it for all.
First...how is the honor sale different in premise than any other deal offered in the game (a better offered value for your limited currency)? Second...no deal in this game is worth it for everyone to begin with, right?
“A committee is a cul-de-sac, down which good ideas are lured and quietly strangled.” —Mark TwainMEMBER: [BoB] Barrel of Bloodwine... We are recruiting and putting the “curv” in scurvy! Best Event Finish: #3 Honor Debt: Inconceivable...Honor Bank Account: Slowly building...
I have no direct insight other than my own experiences and observations, but I think I can clarify this for folks going forward.
If after this Honor Sale the prices for beholds and citations in the Honor Hall are changed, I believe it is probably safe to assume this will be the last Honor Sale.
If after this Honor Sale the prices for beholds and citations in the Honor Hall remain unchanged, I believe it is probably safe to assume there will be future Honor Sales.
Either way there will almost certainly be no official announcement.
With Crew Retrieval doubling the rate at which we earn stars, hoarding honor seems easier now than before. On the other hand, the addition of multiple stat boosting collections encourages using honor to get to the next tier sooner. I'm not sure how I will treat honor going forward, but knowing that I will be close to reaching another tier in the Vulcan collection has me leaning towards spending in the short term, and then hoarding again once I cross that tier.
So a lot of what is going on here is that you want cheaper begolds and citations. Honestly, I am not arguing what the price should be, that seems like a separate argument. If you want cheaper stuff, that is totally reasonable.
There are a few problems here though.
1) Saving or spending is a stressor for many people. Essentially all of you guys have saved and so you would pass the marshmallow test. What about players who don't pass that test? This is a game, not life, they should not be punished for a lack of impulse control.
2) Being able to save is a sign of game 'wealth', ie you don't have any immediate needs, so you can afford to save. This describes my situation perfectly. I haven't run out of legendary citations since the last sale, so I have never even been tempted to use honor. What about newer players who have immediate needs? This whole process discriminates against have nots for the sake of giving haves even more.
3) The strategy from DBs side is to abuse a lack of player knowledge to get them to make poor decisions. Why do you so readily tolerate this behaviour? They could tell us, they just don't want to because they actively want people to make mistakes. That's not something you should be ok with.
The whole process stinks and undermines the entire mechanic of the honor store. The longer this goes on more of the playerbase just saves for the next sale. Your whole defense is I want cheaper stuff. The game is worse for these sales, people are being made to regret their choices, and the sales strategy is basically awful. You support it because you are slightly better off. That's not cool, not cool at all.
I don’t think it is unreasonable for players to yearn for cheaper deals. I also think that most players don’t support the honor sale because they are better off than other players. At that point, I think it’s about getting the most value for what limited currency you possess.
Sure, so argue for a cheaper basic price. I just want the other shenanigans to go away. Cheaper stuff for some is not worth it for all.
First...how is the honor sale different in premise than any other deal offered in the game (a better offered value for your limited currency)? Second...no deal in this game is worth it for everyone to begin with, right?
I'll use this to address IceKat's point too.
This is about norms. When I run a sale in a store, I don't have everything on sale. I am specifically selling stuff I am trying to get rid of. This can be seasonal stock, or bad bets. Sales are also usually held at particular times each year, people know to expect them. Businesses use them to keep cashflow up in fallow periods. People even ask in advance, and we honestly answer and with stock that's not moving we'll probably be happy to do a discount anyway. I've been on the other side of this myself, especially post Christmas sales where I am looking for discounted Christmas items and I will always ask for the sale schedule and people will answer honestly. It's not good to have your customers experience buyers remorse if you want their repeat business. Businesses often publish sales prices in advance (and indeed stock specific 'sale' items (which isn't legal in every jurisdiction)). The sales in regards to the honor store are not an item with low demand or where storing the inventory has a cost, the functionality of the item does not diminish over time. The fact that there are sales at all is to induce panicked, low information behaviour.
There are games that actually have buyer protection periods where if you buy something within 1 week of a sale you can get the difference refunded (mobile games have a specific difficulty with this because they don't have complete visibility of the sale). Heck, there are businesses in the real world that promise to refund the difference if you find it cheaper elsewhere. It is a known fact that people are regret averse.
I think the main way the honor sale differs from most other sales in the game, is their lack of frequency. I never buy undiscounted dilithium, but dilithium offers are common. I never buy Premium packs at full price (does anyone?). Heck, I don't even buy event packs anymore, waiting for post mega events or just for the purple to drop randomly when it eventually enters the portal. The key here is that they are either frequent enough or I know exactly when they will be and so it is a genuine choice. The main problem with the honor sale is the infrequency and the genuine existential question about whether it is coming at all.
The hint that Ben dropped was not widely publicised, so does not count as proper dispersal of information. In game message or nothing on this one.
I am happy for these sales to continue if there is no uncertainty in the choice for the players, if the sales are frequent or people know when they are going to be. I am also happy for the price to be permanently lower if that will satisfy ye. That is the fairest approach so that everyone faces the same price all of the time. Hoarding really shouldn't be a game mechanic.
"hoarding" will always be a game mechanic. The whole point of having a currency is to be able to manage and decide when it will be used to acquire stuff. If you can't save and decide when to spend, just put an honor counter and when it reaches 50000 award a citation and set it to 0. And in that managment, sales are only natural, to encourage spending the resource, and by reducing the amount of that resource in hands of the players, making more valuable the goods that you can buy (ie, if TP puts a new crew in the honor hall, it has more value for them if the players have less honor and have to spend money to gain more)
I save my cites until a "can't resist" gold comes along. I have about 30 saved up yet and will add another 10 or so yet from the current sale. Spent 4 yesterday on Reunion Kirk and Spock as that was an absolute "can't resist" gold for me. I spend the occassional 1 here or there to FFE a gold that will be an event crew but otherwise I don't spend them too much. So that leads me to saving for the sales so I can stock up more.
I don’t hoard honor because I don’t want to wait to improve my roster twice a year. Seems counter productive. They sell honor during these sales anyway so I stock up even though I don’t have much honor in the bank. If you think about it, they don’t like these sales and hoarding because I will by DYC’s for $25 but during honor sales I can get one cite for $10 (5 purchases), 2 for $25 (three purchases), 3.5 for $50 (two purchases), and about 6.5 for $100. They may make money off that in the short term but in the long term this saves me from buying more DYCs for more money the more I participate in this sale. Not to mention buying pack offers to get the airlock honor, those weak $10 honor offers that someone might buy. Hoarding and honor sales hurt the bottom line in the long run
Bold to assert that they are losing revenue because they aren't getting quite as much of your money as they could! I think you are correct that they are losing some potential revenue from whales (to me, anyone who would pay $25 for a single star and some equipment is truly a whaley whale if not quite a whaley whale among whales), but I don't think that is the consumer segment they are hoping to capture in the honor sale, at least not with the lower-end offers. They are hoping people like me, who are only interested in the cheapest offers in the game, will see a citation and a behold for $10 and go "yes, please, I'll take all 5!", which indeed in the last honor sale, I did (after all, it's one gold star better than the weekly LTOs for the same price). There are far more people, I would guess, in the segment that buys monthly cards and premium campaigns than there are in the group who regularly buy DYCs (and fewer still who buy thousands of dollars worth of dilithium to win faction events!) In other words: some prices are for whales, some are for skinflints, and, I suppose, they hope to make some ad revenue off of the F2P crowd. They make the most money by having offers that appeal to each group that has some willingness to spend instead of offers that appeal to only a single market segment. This doesn't mean I think they are successfully maximizing revenue - I have no idea how well they are doing! - but this is the general idea of having different kinds of offers. And I think some of the offers are so terrible that they are just there to make the other offers look more appealing by contrast, though I feel like they've had fewer of those offers of late (or I've just gotten better at ignoring them entirely).
Well I’m a pretty bold guy. There’s many different spending habits and playing styles in the game. My comment was from my perspective but then again, aren’t most comments from the commenters perspective?
I save my cites until a "can't resist" gold comes along. I have about 30 saved up yet and will add another 10 or so yet from the current sale. Spent 4 yesterday on Reunion Kirk and Spock as that was an absolute "can't resist" gold for me. I spend the occassional 1 here or there to FFE a gold that will be an event crew but otherwise I don't spend them too much. So that leads me to saving for the sales so I can stock up more.
So a lot of what is going on here is that you want cheaper begolds and citations. Honestly, I am not arguing what the price should be, that seems like a separate argument. If you want cheaper stuff, that is totally reasonable.
There are a few problems here though.
1) Saving or spending is a stressor for many people. Essentially all of you guys have saved and so you would pass the marshmallow test. What about players who don't pass that test? This is a game, not life, they should not be punished for a lack of impulse control.
2) Being able to save is a sign of game 'wealth', ie you don't have any immediate needs, so you can afford to save. This describes my situation perfectly. I haven't run out of legendary citations since the last sale, so I have never even been tempted to use honor. What about newer players who have immediate needs? This whole process discriminates against have nots for the sake of giving haves even more.
3) The strategy from DBs side is to abuse a lack of player knowledge to get them to make poor decisions. Why do you so readily tolerate this behaviour? They could tell us, they just don't want to because they actively want people to make mistakes. That's not something you should be ok with.
The whole process stinks and undermines the entire mechanic of the honor store. The longer this goes on more of the playerbase just saves for the next sale. Your whole defense is I want cheaper stuff. The game is worse for these sales, people are being made to regret their choices, and the sales strategy is basically awful. You support it because you are slightly better off. That's not cool, not cool at all.
I don’t think it is unreasonable for players to yearn for cheaper deals. I also think that most players don’t support the honor sale because they are better off than other players. At that point, I think it’s about getting the most value for what limited currency you possess.
Sure, so argue for a cheaper basic price. I just want the other shenanigans to go away. Cheaper stuff for some is not worth it for all.
First...how is the honor sale different in premise than any other deal offered in the game (a better offered value for your limited currency)? Second...no deal in this game is worth it for everyone to begin with, right?
I'll use this to address IceKat's point too.
This is about norms. When I run a sale in a store, I don't have everything on sale. I am specifically selling stuff I am trying to get rid of. This can be seasonal stock, or bad bets. Sales are also usually held at particular times each year, people know to expect them. Businesses use them to keep cashflow up in fallow periods. People even ask in advance, and we honestly answer and with stock that's not moving we'll probably be happy to do a discount anyway. I've been on the other side of this myself, especially post Christmas sales where I am looking for discounted Christmas items and I will always ask for the sale schedule and people will answer honestly. It's not good to have your customers experience buyers remorse if you want their repeat business. Businesses often publish sales prices in advance (and indeed stock specific 'sale' items (which isn't legal in every jurisdiction)). The sales in regards to the honor store are not an item with low demand or where storing the inventory has a cost, the functionality of the item does not diminish over time. The fact that there are sales at all is to induce panicked, low information behaviour.
There are games that actually have buyer protection periods where if you buy something within 1 week of a sale you can get the difference refunded (mobile games have a specific difficulty with this because they don't have complete visibility of the sale). Heck, there are businesses in the real world that promise to refund the difference if you find it cheaper elsewhere. It is a known fact that people are regret averse.
I think the main way the honor sale differs from most other sales in the game, is their lack of frequency. I never buy undiscounted dilithium, but dilithium offers are common. I never buy Premium packs at full price (does anyone?). Heck, I don't even buy event packs anymore, waiting for post mega events or just for the purple to drop randomly when it eventually enters the portal. The key here is that they are either frequent enough or I know exactly when they will be and so it is a genuine choice. The main problem with the honor sale is the infrequency and the genuine existential question about whether it is coming at all.
The hint that Ben dropped was not widely publicised, so does not count as proper dispersal of information. In game message or nothing on this one.
I am happy for these sales to continue if there is no uncertainty in the choice for the players, if the sales are frequent or people know when they are going to be. I am also happy for the price to be permanently lower if that will satisfy ye. That is the fairest approach so that everyone faces the same price all of the time. Hoarding really shouldn't be a game mechanic.
Hoarding shouldn’t be a game mechanic? What does your inventory look like? I have 20,000 alcohol just chilling... and that’s only one item type. How many duplicate characters do you suppose are out there in the game? How many chrons do you or anyone else possess? Merits?
You’re bothered because there is no certainty with the honor sale and because X has greater access to Y leading to greater chances at Z. That sounds like life in general...
“A committee is a cul-de-sac, down which good ideas are lured and quietly strangled.” —Mark TwainMEMBER: [BoB] Barrel of Bloodwine... We are recruiting and putting the “curv” in scurvy! Best Event Finish: #3 Honor Debt: Inconceivable...Honor Bank Account: Slowly building...
I get what Thurthorad is saying. I ran out of my cites a couple of months ago and then was stuck. Had crew I wanted to cite but felt I couldn’t buy the cites With honor cause then I would miss out on the sale whenever it came later. It did detract the fun somewhat for me but also forced me to buy some $5 citation deals and campaigns I might not have otherwise just to get the cite.
I get what Thurthorad is saying. I ran out of my cites a couple of months ago and then was stuck. Had crew I wanted to cite but felt I couldn’t buy the cites With honor cause then I would miss out on the sale whenever it came later. It did detract the fun somewhat for me but also forced me to buy some $5 citation deals and campaigns I might not have otherwise just to get the cite.
I can understand that. And those are the choices we make. However, to equate an honor sale to discrimination and psychological torture is absurd imho.
“A committee is a cul-de-sac, down which good ideas are lured and quietly strangled.” —Mark TwainMEMBER: [BoB] Barrel of Bloodwine... We are recruiting and putting the “curv” in scurvy! Best Event Finish: #3 Honor Debt: Inconceivable...Honor Bank Account: Slowly building...
I get what Thurthorad is saying. I ran out of my cites a couple of months ago and then was stuck. Had crew I wanted to cite but felt I couldn’t buy the cites With honor cause then I would miss out on the sale whenever it came later. It did detract the fun somewhat for me but also forced me to buy some $5 citation deals and campaigns I might not have otherwise just to get the cite.
I can understand that. And those are the choices we make. However, to equate an honor sale to discrimination and psychological torture is absurd imho.
The reason I feel so strongly about it and use such strong language about it is that it is needless and artificial. All of you arguing 'that that's life' also need to remember that some suffering is unavoidable and random and some is avoidable and an offense. If you get cancer randomly that's just life, but if someone is contaminating your water supply, that's an offense.
At the end of the day TP don't have to have honor sales on an infrequent schedule or to have them at all, therefore they are responsible for the psychological harm, however minor, that deploying them the way they do causes. There is a huge amount of research in this area and they are relying on people's psychological pain to make a meagre extra few sales. The very fact that players adapt to their strategy suggests that the players are behaving the way they are doing to avoid regret. It is insane to me that you can argue 'well I have changed my behaviour to avoid psychological pain so that makes it ok for people to induce that defense in me'.
I get what Thurthorad is saying. I ran out of my cites a couple of months ago and then was stuck. Had crew I wanted to cite but felt I couldn’t buy the cites With honor cause then I would miss out on the sale whenever it came later. It did detract the fun somewhat for me but also forced me to buy some $5 citation deals and campaigns I might not have otherwise just to get the cite.
I can understand that. And those are the choices we make. However, to equate an honor sale to discrimination and psychological torture is absurd imho.
The reason I feel so strongly about it and use such strong language about it is that it is needless and artificial. All of you arguing 'that that's life' also need to remember that some suffering is unavoidable and random and some is avoidable and an offense. If you get cancer randomly that's just life, but if someone is contaminating your water supply, that's an offense.
At the end of the day TP don't have to have honor sales on an infrequent schedule or to have them at all, therefore they are responsible for the psychological harm, however minor, that deploying them the way they do causes. There is a huge amount of research in this area and they are relying on people's psychological pain to make a meagre extra few sales. The very fact that players adapt to their strategy suggests that the players are behaving the way they are doing to avoid regret. It is insane to me that you can argue 'well I have changed my behaviour to avoid psychological pain so that makes it ok for people to induce that defense in me'.
I don't agree with this. When I started playing this game, it felt a lot like any other mobile game designed to get players used to immediate gratification and then convince them to spend money in order to keep that gratification coming and reduce their frustration over its absence. Plus it has always had a huge gambling component, nicely disguised under a Star Trek banner. Those things can be considered ethically questionable and while the game has moved on to become a more complex product, some of the features are still based on them.
I don't think the honor sales and honor economy in general fall into that group though. Maybe for some players it's distressing to deal with the uncertainty of future sales (which could be removed if we had a clear schedule) but that doesn't mean that the whole thing is morally questionable. These sales are the only really enjoyable part of the game for me and I'm perfectly willing to wait for months for them. Other game features are nice, still others are plain annoying, but for someone who has played Timelines since 2016 there's almost nothing left that would be exciting. Honor sales are.
Even if they permanently reduced honor prices for cites and begolds, it wouldn't be the same. One cite has almost zero use for my crew and I would still have to wait at least a couple of weeks (depending on the price) to get another one. One begold has a very high chance of being completely useless and disappointing. Best case scenario, I will get a star for a card I already own or a new character that I like, but have no use for. That's nice, but I wouldn't call it fun.
Honor sales are fun for some of us. Those who perceive them as useless or distressing would probably benefit from a balanced mix of spending and saving honor. I don't think they rely on "psychological pain" just because for some players it's annoying not to know when and if they will happen. Otherwise every form of uncertainty and long-term planning in this game would qualify as psychological torture too. And there is uncertainty or long-time planning involved in almost every feature, at least for those who don't spend huge amounts of money.
I hear the they don’t have to do this or that stuff but on the other hand if they make a game they want people to play then they should do some things to keep the people playing it
I get what Thurthorad is saying. I ran out of my cites a couple of months ago and then was stuck. Had crew I wanted to cite but felt I couldn’t buy the cites With honor cause then I would miss out on the sale whenever it came later. It did detract the fun somewhat for me but also forced me to buy some $5 citation deals and campaigns I might not have otherwise just to get the cite.
I can understand that. And those are the choices we make. However, to equate an honor sale to discrimination and psychological torture is absurd imho.
Depends on the person. What is a small annoyance to some can be a major annoyance and stressor for others or worse. Some players get really annoyed if stats or the level of a crew isn’t even. That doesn’t bother me but I totally understand that. There are things that really bother or annoy me that don’t others. Then add in the addictive quality of these games. Something game companies have spent much money and time to design them specifically to be addictive and get people to spend money. Any mobile game can be addictive to people. Some players spend thousands or tens of thousands of dollars they can’t afford to lose on mobile games. Some people get stuck feeling they cannot ever leave the game.
I get what Thurthorad is saying. I ran out of my cites a couple of months ago and then was stuck. Had crew I wanted to cite but felt I couldn’t buy the cites With honor cause then I would miss out on the sale whenever it came later. It did detract the fun somewhat for me but also forced me to buy some $5 citation deals and campaigns I might not have otherwise just to get the cite.
I can understand that. And those are the choices we make. However, to equate an honor sale to discrimination and psychological torture is absurd imho.
Depends on the person. What is a small annoyance to some can be a major annoyance and stressor for others or worse. Some players get really annoyed if stats or the level of a crew isn’t even. That doesn’t bother me but I totally understand that. There are things that really bother or annoy me that don’t others. Then add in the addictive quality of these games. Something game companies have spent much money and time to design them specifically to be addictive and get people to spend money. Any mobile game can be addictive to people. Some players spend thousands or tens of thousands of dollars they can’t afford to lose on mobile games. Some people get stuck feeling they cannot ever leave the game.
I agree on all of that, but it doesn't change the fact that this is a subjective thing, in my opinion. The same complaints made against honor sales could be made against any other game feature.
I personally really hate galaxy events and the gauntlet. I tap through that stuff out of habit, FOMO and sometimes sheer rage. Others enjoy them and I will never understand why. But because of that I don't feel like I can describe them as torture or advocate for their removal.
I get what Thurthorad is saying. I ran out of my cites a couple of months ago and then was stuck. Had crew I wanted to cite but felt I couldn’t buy the cites With honor cause then I would miss out on the sale whenever it came later. It did detract the fun somewhat for me but also forced me to buy some $5 citation deals and campaigns I might not have otherwise just to get the cite.
I can understand that. And those are the choices we make. However, to equate an honor sale to discrimination and psychological torture is absurd imho.
Depends on the person. What is a small annoyance to some can be a major annoyance and stressor for others or worse. Some players get really annoyed if stats or the level of a crew isn’t even. That doesn’t bother me but I totally understand that. There are things that really bother or annoy me that don’t others. Then add in the addictive quality of these games. Something game companies have spent much money and time to design them specifically to be addictive and get people to spend money. Any mobile game can be addictive to people. Some players spend thousands or tens of thousands of dollars they can’t afford to lose on mobile games. Some people get stuck feeling they cannot ever leave the game.
I agree on all of that, but it doesn't change the fact that this is a subjective thing, in my opinion. The same complaints made against honor sales could be made against any other game feature.
I personally really hate galaxy events and the gauntlet. I tap through that stuff out of habit, FOMO and sometimes sheer rage. Others enjoy them and I will never understand why. But because of that I don't feel like I can describe them as torture or advocate for their removal.
I would not advocate removing honor sales but I do understand the frustration some find from the infrequency of them and not announced schedule for them. I know why TP does that but it can be hard.
I get what Thurthorad is saying. I ran out of my cites a couple of months ago and then was stuck. Had crew I wanted to cite but felt I couldn’t buy the cites With honor cause then I would miss out on the sale whenever it came later. It did detract the fun somewhat for me but also forced me to buy some $5 citation deals and campaigns I might not have otherwise just to get the cite.
I can understand that. And those are the choices we make. However, to equate an honor sale to discrimination and psychological torture is absurd imho.
Depends on the person. What is a small annoyance to some can be a major annoyance and stressor for others or worse. Some players get really annoyed if stats or the level of a crew isn’t even. That doesn’t bother me but I totally understand that. There are things that really bother or annoy me that don’t others. Then add in the addictive quality of these games. Something game companies have spent much money and time to design them specifically to be addictive and get people to spend money. Any mobile game can be addictive to people. Some players spend thousands or tens of thousands of dollars they can’t afford to lose on mobile games. Some people get stuck feeling they cannot ever leave the game.
I agree on all of that, but it doesn't change the fact that this is a subjective thing, in my opinion. The same complaints made against honor sales could be made against any other game feature.
I personally really hate galaxy events and the gauntlet. I tap through that stuff out of habit, FOMO and sometimes sheer rage. Others enjoy them and I will never understand why. But because of that I don't feel like I can describe them as torture or advocate for their removal.
I would not advocate removing honor sales but I do understand the frustration some find from the infrequency of them and not announced schedule for them. I know why TP does that but it can be hard.
I understand it too. I guess the infrequency can't be changed, but I think it would be better if there was a fixed schedule. Those who can afford to hoard resources will do it anyway and those who can't will still have to spend money if they want to take advantage of it.
I get what Thurthorad is saying. I ran out of my cites a couple of months ago and then was stuck. Had crew I wanted to cite but felt I couldn’t buy the cites With honor cause then I would miss out on the sale whenever it came later. It did detract the fun somewhat for me but also forced me to buy some $5 citation deals and campaigns I might not have otherwise just to get the cite.
I can understand that. And those are the choices we make. However, to equate an honor sale to discrimination and psychological torture is absurd imho.
The reason I feel so strongly about it and use such strong language about it is that it is needless and artificial. All of you arguing 'that that's life' also need to remember that some suffering is unavoidable and random and some is avoidable and an offense. If you get cancer randomly that's just life, but if someone is contaminating your water supply, that's an offense.
At the end of the day TP don't have to have honor sales on an infrequent schedule or to have them at all, therefore they are responsible for the psychological harm, however minor, that deploying them the way they do causes. There is a huge amount of research in this area and they are relying on people's psychological pain to make a meagre extra few sales. The very fact that players adapt to their strategy suggests that the players are behaving the way they are doing to avoid regret. It is insane to me that you can argue 'well I have changed my behaviour to avoid psychological pain so that makes it ok for people to induce that defense in me'.
This isn’t cancer or lead in a water supply. Those are items one would certainly need to deal with, and clearly may not be as easily avoided as this game... and this game is a choice.
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I get what Thurthorad is saying. I ran out of my cites a couple of months ago and then was stuck. Had crew I wanted to cite but felt I couldn’t buy the cites With honor cause then I would miss out on the sale whenever it came later. It did detract the fun somewhat for me but also forced me to buy some $5 citation deals and campaigns I might not have otherwise just to get the cite.
I can understand that. And those are the choices we make. However, to equate an honor sale to discrimination and psychological torture is absurd imho.
The reason I feel so strongly about it and use such strong language about it is that it is needless and artificial. All of you arguing 'that that's life' also need to remember that some suffering is unavoidable and random and some is avoidable and an offense. If you get cancer randomly that's just life, but if someone is contaminating your water supply, that's an offense.
At the end of the day TP don't have to have honor sales on an infrequent schedule or to have them at all, therefore they are responsible for the psychological harm, however minor, that deploying them the way they do causes. There is a huge amount of research in this area and they are relying on people's psychological pain to make a meagre extra few sales. The very fact that players adapt to their strategy suggests that the players are behaving the way they are doing to avoid regret. It is insane to me that you can argue 'well I have changed my behaviour to avoid psychological pain so that makes it ok for people to induce that defense in me'.
This isn’t cancer or lead in a water supply. Those are items one would certainly need to deal with, and clearly may not be as easily avoided as this game... and this game is a choice.
You're getting hung up on semantics rather than taking my point on board. I was clearly using a simple example to make my point. TP are making a choice too don't forget and they should be judged for it. Humans have systemic psychological blind spots which mobile games already lean into. TP is going one further with these honor sales, creating inequities in the player population, causing needless stress to many players, which boils over into outrage, all in the service of a few measly dollars. They can clear the whole situation up by allowing the players know the frequency of these sales so that those that have to create strategies around honor hoarding don't have to be just guessing.
I get what Thurthorad is saying. I ran out of my cites a couple of months ago and then was stuck. Had crew I wanted to cite but felt I couldn’t buy the cites With honor cause then I would miss out on the sale whenever it came later. It did detract the fun somewhat for me but also forced me to buy some $5 citation deals and campaigns I might not have otherwise just to get the cite.
I can understand that. And those are the choices we make. However, to equate an honor sale to discrimination and psychological torture is absurd imho.
The reason I feel so strongly about it and use such strong language about it is that it is needless and artificial. All of you arguing 'that that's life' also need to remember that some suffering is unavoidable and random and some is avoidable and an offense. If you get cancer randomly that's just life, but if someone is contaminating your water supply, that's an offense.
At the end of the day TP don't have to have honor sales on an infrequent schedule or to have them at all, therefore they are responsible for the psychological harm, however minor, that deploying them the way they do causes. There is a huge amount of research in this area and they are relying on people's psychological pain to make a meagre extra few sales. The very fact that players adapt to their strategy suggests that the players are behaving the way they are doing to avoid regret. It is insane to me that you can argue 'well I have changed my behaviour to avoid psychological pain so that makes it ok for people to induce that defense in me'.
Can't imagine how you handle all the sales in the grocery store and don't buy you food, etc until its on sale. Apparently every grocery store does psychological torture according to your "sale" argument.
I get what Thurthorad is saying. I ran out of my cites a couple of months ago and then was stuck. Had crew I wanted to cite but felt I couldn’t buy the cites With honor cause then I would miss out on the sale whenever it came later. It did detract the fun somewhat for me but also forced me to buy some $5 citation deals and campaigns I might not have otherwise just to get the cite.
I can understand that. And those are the choices we make. However, to equate an honor sale to discrimination and psychological torture is absurd imho.
The reason I feel so strongly about it and use such strong language about it is that it is needless and artificial. All of you arguing 'that that's life' also need to remember that some suffering is unavoidable and random and some is avoidable and an offense. If you get cancer randomly that's just life, but if someone is contaminating your water supply, that's an offense.
At the end of the day TP don't have to have honor sales on an infrequent schedule or to have them at all, therefore they are responsible for the psychological harm, however minor, that deploying them the way they do causes. There is a huge amount of research in this area and they are relying on people's psychological pain to make a meagre extra few sales. The very fact that players adapt to their strategy suggests that the players are behaving the way they are doing to avoid regret. It is insane to me that you can argue 'well I have changed my behaviour to avoid psychological pain so that makes it ok for people to induce that defense in me'.
Can't imagine how you handle all the sales in the grocery store and don't buy you food, etc until its on sale. Apparently every grocery store does psychological torture according to your "sale" argument.
Wow, it's like you came into a thread and didn't read any of the posts that went before.
TLDR; Sales in grocery stores are driven by good faith needs to rotate inventory. This does not apply in the digital space. Also, sales in stores tend to be regular and frequent which is exactly what honor sales are not. Note I am not criticising their dilithium or pack sales, because they are by default on sale so frequently that it is no pain to wait.
I get what Thurthorad is saying. I ran out of my cites a couple of months ago and then was stuck. Had crew I wanted to cite but felt I couldn’t buy the cites With honor cause then I would miss out on the sale whenever it came later. It did detract the fun somewhat for me but also forced me to buy some $5 citation deals and campaigns I might not have otherwise just to get the cite.
I can understand that. And those are the choices we make. However, to equate an honor sale to discrimination and psychological torture is absurd imho.
The reason I feel so strongly about it and use such strong language about it is that it is needless and artificial. All of you arguing 'that that's life' also need to remember that some suffering is unavoidable and random and some is avoidable and an offense. If you get cancer randomly that's just life, but if someone is contaminating your water supply, that's an offense.
At the end of the day TP don't have to have honor sales on an infrequent schedule or to have them at all, therefore they are responsible for the psychological harm, however minor, that deploying them the way they do causes. There is a huge amount of research in this area and they are relying on people's psychological pain to make a meagre extra few sales. The very fact that players adapt to their strategy suggests that the players are behaving the way they are doing to avoid regret. It is insane to me that you can argue 'well I have changed my behaviour to avoid psychological pain so that makes it ok for people to induce that defense in me'.
Can't imagine how you handle all the sales in the grocery store and don't buy you food, etc until its on sale. Apparently every grocery store does psychological torture according to your "sale" argument.
Wow, it's like you came into a thread and didn't read any of the posts that went before.
TLDR; Sales in grocery stores are driven by good faith needs to rotate inventory. This does not apply in the digital space. Also, sales in stores tend to be regular and frequent which is exactly what honor sales are not. Note I am not criticising their dilithium or pack sales, because they are by default on sale so frequently that it is no pain to wait.
Nope sorry I've read all the posts and I find it ridiculous that people have stress, etc over infrequent sales for ANYTHING.
How about this then. Look at all of the companies that do special Black Friday sales. Yeah its on a schedule, but talk about infrequent. Same principle but just as ridiculous. If you need/want something, buy it. If you can wait for a better deal, wait. Get over it and move along.
Or give more honor for dismissed crew! A gold citation cost almost 100 times the honor you get from dismissing a gold!
Both of these ideas have been suggested many times in the past.
A combination of both would stop hoarding and outcries for honor sale if thats how they wish to proceed. We dont need a form of currency that is not valued in everyday play. The vast majority save for honor hall crew and honor sale packs.
The cost of citations vs the amt of honor for a dismissed gold card is way out of balance. It does seem clear that WRG/TP does not like the honor sale as much as thir predecessors who added honor currency, honor hall, and honor sales packs to the game. If this is the case then why continue with an imbalanced system of currency? Change the system to the above 2 suggestions, balance the honor hall purchases (including crew) along with dismissal honor for all cards so that it is reasonable and most will be happy to forfeit honor sales packs. The system is so un-balanced ppl refuse to purchase a gold cite for 50k honor, then start screaming for honor sale. Lets figure out how to avoid this.
It would be a simple adjustment of balance in the currency earnings and usage. And just do away with honor sales if that is the direction they wish to go.
Or continue honor sale frequency as it was.
Sales will always exist, players will never spend a currency as they get them, no matter the price. Players will always manage and save their resources to a variety of extents. Players will always keep as much of something as possible waiting for the best chance or "a rainy day".
If prices are dropped, players will "hoard" anyway, 'cause it's only natural to keep honor just in case tomorror a killer crew appears in the honor hall, or you need to cite an unexpected crew, or any oter situation when you really need honor at the moment.
I get what Thurthorad is saying. I ran out of my cites a couple of months ago and then was stuck. Had crew I wanted to cite but felt I couldn’t buy the cites With honor cause then I would miss out on the sale whenever it came later. It did detract the fun somewhat for me but also forced me to buy some $5 citation deals and campaigns I might not have otherwise just to get the cite.
I can understand that. And those are the choices we make. However, to equate an honor sale to discrimination and psychological torture is absurd imho.
The reason I feel so strongly about it and use such strong language about it is that it is needless and artificial. All of you arguing 'that that's life' also need to remember that some suffering is unavoidable and random and some is avoidable and an offense. If you get cancer randomly that's just life, but if someone is contaminating your water supply, that's an offense.
At the end of the day TP don't have to have honor sales on an infrequent schedule or to have them at all, therefore they are responsible for the psychological harm, however minor, that deploying them the way they do causes. There is a huge amount of research in this area and they are relying on people's psychological pain to make a meagre extra few sales. The very fact that players adapt to their strategy suggests that the players are behaving the way they are doing to avoid regret. It is insane to me that you can argue 'well I have changed my behaviour to avoid psychological pain so that makes it ok for people to induce that defense in me'.
Can't imagine how you handle all the sales in the grocery store and don't buy you food, etc until its on sale. Apparently every grocery store does psychological torture according to your "sale" argument.
Wow, it's like you came into a thread and didn't read any of the posts that went before.
TLDR; Sales in grocery stores are driven by good faith needs to rotate inventory. This does not apply in the digital space. Also, sales in stores tend to be regular and frequent which is exactly what honor sales are not. Note I am not criticising their dilithium or pack sales, because they are by default on sale so frequently that it is no pain to wait.
Nope sorry I've read all the posts and I find it ridiculous that people have stress, etc over infrequent sales for ANYTHING.
How about this then. Look at all of the companies that do special Black Friday sales. Yeah its on a schedule, but talk about infrequent. Same principle but just as ridiculous. If you need/want something, buy it. If you can wait for a better deal, wait. Get over it and move along.
Your dismissal of reality unfortunately doesn't change anything.
You understand that it's flawed right? It only benefits people who *can* save, therefore it's asymmetric in how it operates. Those who can't afford to save, ie newer players or poorer players don't benefit as much as wealthy or established players. It operates against the way normal game mechanics are supposed to work.
And more importantly it distorts player behaviour, in ways that TP don't even want. Most people just save all of their honor for these sales, and then when they start to doubt the sale is coming they get all upset about it, throw tantrums on the forums and in some ways force TP to run the sale. The whole thing is stupid. They should never have had the first sale, it immediately altered the landscape of the game re: honor.
As I've said before, this doesn't affect me at all, I never ran out of citations from the last sale, and I'm unlikely to do so before the next one either, unless there is a big jump in power creep, but it's bad for the game, and for some of the players.
Sales will always exist, players will never spend a currency as they get them, no matter the price. Players will always manage and save their resources to a variety of extents. Players will always keep as much of something as possible waiting for the best chance or "a rainy day".
If prices are dropped, players will "hoard" anyway, 'cause it's only natural to keep honor just in case tomorror a killer crew appears in the honor hall, or you need to cite an unexpected crew, or any oter situation when you really need honor at the moment.
I have no issue with hoarding, I have an issue with sales that have long and irregular gaps that benefit 'wealthy' and established players over 'poor' and newer players. I have seen the outpouring of emotion over them both privately and publicly here. People feel they 'can't' spend their honor outside of an honor sale.
Sure, there's just been a sale so there has been this giant catharsis in the community, but we'll just go through the same situation again in another year where people's expectations in regards to honor sales start to bleed into their feelings about the game.
Comments
Life is about choices. That doesn't change because it's a game. All players have a choice with regards to honour — spend or save.
I think at this point, almost all players understand the pros and cons that come with both choices. I could understand your argument if the game was unplayable if you didn't follow one way or another. But it's not.
You can still play what I'll call "normally", and spend honour as you get it/as it is needed. You do so knowing full well that you are sacrificing the value that comes from saving until the honour sale.
Or, you can sacrifice short term benefits for long term gains. You get far more bang for your buck by waiting until a sale happens. The reward for the temporary setback of not being able to use your honour is a much greater benefit when you do. You do so knowing full well that you are sacrificing immediate gratification that comes from spending immediately.
That's entirely your call. No one forces you to choose one way or another. Therefore, I feel that it's a bit much to say one player type is being "punished". There are rewards and setbacks to both approaches.
You choose which ones are more important to you as an individual. That is no different than someone who prioritises one aspect of the game (say, voyages) over another. To say people are being "punished for a lack of impulse control" is a leap.
You could take that thought process further, and say, if they are so lacking in impulse control, why aren't they buying every single possible real money deal in sight? Because they are responsible for their actions, and know the benefits and costs.
If you can't control your "impulse" to spend a free made up currency, in a fictional game, I'm terrified to see how you handle actual real life situations, with real life consequences.
You can make that argument, but I think that is very untrue. When I was in the earlier stages of the game, I often spent honour on things that I would never do so now. Trainers are a perfect example.
Did I do so because I was an earlier stage player? In part, yes. Did I do so knowing full well what I was sacrificing in the long term to do so? Also, yes.
Of course, players in the later stages are going to have advantages over newer ones. There is absolutely no way to change that, nor should there be. People put a lot of time and effort (and sometimes actual money) into reaching that point in the game. How is that discriminatory?
Should ever player have the exact same crew? What about ships? How about dilithium? Of course not. Is this discriminatory then, by your own argument? I would imagine you would say they are different, but I think most would disagree. The principle is the sale.
Some players like you have an abundance of cites. I do not. I could spend honour to get more, sacrificing my ability to maximise the Honour Sale.
Should I complain because you have an advantage over me? Of course not, because once again, I have a choice.
Some players have endless hordes of things like credits, which gave them a fundamental advantage during the Dabo Sale. Where was the uproar then? I didn't get to take advantage of that sale. In fact, losing the ad freebie cost me spins I would have normally used. Should I complain about that too? Did I not have a choice to save my credits for other things?
My point is that every player has different goals, resources, and strategies, which forces players to choose how to handle each situation individually. This is absolutely no different. To claim it's discriminatory is absurd.
This is probably the most patently untrue statement of the bunch. First of all, TP (DB no longer even exists) is not abusing players by running honour sales, any more than they would be by running literally any other sale!. Secondly, to use the word abuse to describe whatever you feel they are doing is ridiculous. It's hyperbolic at best, and libelous at worst.
Third, how is there a lack of player knowledge on this subject? They specifically said there would be an honour sale in March well in advance. It is also very common knowledge that honour sales happen, and roughly when. Even most newer players are aware of this.
You could make an argument that they could publicise the exact date in advance, but how is that any different than how most businesses handle sales?
I specifically asked you this question in response to your other over the top claims, and you chose to ignore it. I'll ask again, because I think this is a fundamental flaw to your whole argument.
Until you can answer that honestly, I feel your entire point is moot. How is an Honour Sale any different than those?
I think you are way off base in this final point. While of course people who have more benefit more, this doesn't make the entire premise of a sale fundamentally flawed as a result.
The most likely alternative to Honour Sales would be to have the lower cost honour options eliminated entirely, with them being "full price" all the time. I fail to see how that would benefit anyone.
And to address your last point, my POV on the Honour Sales hasn't changed at all, from the time I couldn't afford to get anything, to now. This has nothing to do with status or stage of the game influencing my feelings. I'm guessing that would be accurate for a lot of other players as well.
You can make a case for a lot of other options to Honour Sales, up to, and including, making the discounting prices the new permanent one. But to disparage the entire concept, particularly in a way that uses highly charged terms like psychological torture, unethical and abuse, does no one any favours.
TL;DR — we all have choices to make, both in life, and in this game. As a wise man once said:
First...how is the honor sale different in premise than any other deal offered in the game (a better offered value for your limited currency)? Second...no deal in this game is worth it for everyone to begin with, right?
If after this Honor Sale the prices for beholds and citations in the Honor Hall are changed, I believe it is probably safe to assume this will be the last Honor Sale.
If after this Honor Sale the prices for beholds and citations in the Honor Hall remain unchanged, I believe it is probably safe to assume there will be future Honor Sales.
Either way there will almost certainly be no official announcement.
I'll use this to address IceKat's point too.
This is about norms. When I run a sale in a store, I don't have everything on sale. I am specifically selling stuff I am trying to get rid of. This can be seasonal stock, or bad bets. Sales are also usually held at particular times each year, people know to expect them. Businesses use them to keep cashflow up in fallow periods. People even ask in advance, and we honestly answer and with stock that's not moving we'll probably be happy to do a discount anyway. I've been on the other side of this myself, especially post Christmas sales where I am looking for discounted Christmas items and I will always ask for the sale schedule and people will answer honestly. It's not good to have your customers experience buyers remorse if you want their repeat business. Businesses often publish sales prices in advance (and indeed stock specific 'sale' items (which isn't legal in every jurisdiction)). The sales in regards to the honor store are not an item with low demand or where storing the inventory has a cost, the functionality of the item does not diminish over time. The fact that there are sales at all is to induce panicked, low information behaviour.
There are games that actually have buyer protection periods where if you buy something within 1 week of a sale you can get the difference refunded (mobile games have a specific difficulty with this because they don't have complete visibility of the sale). Heck, there are businesses in the real world that promise to refund the difference if you find it cheaper elsewhere. It is a known fact that people are regret averse.
I think the main way the honor sale differs from most other sales in the game, is their lack of frequency. I never buy undiscounted dilithium, but dilithium offers are common. I never buy Premium packs at full price (does anyone?). Heck, I don't even buy event packs anymore, waiting for post mega events or just for the purple to drop randomly when it eventually enters the portal. The key here is that they are either frequent enough or I know exactly when they will be and so it is a genuine choice. The main problem with the honor sale is the infrequency and the genuine existential question about whether it is coming at all.
The hint that Ben dropped was not widely publicised, so does not count as proper dispersal of information. In game message or nothing on this one.
I am happy for these sales to continue if there is no uncertainty in the choice for the players, if the sales are frequent or people know when they are going to be. I am also happy for the price to be permanently lower if that will satisfy ye. That is the fairest approach so that everyone faces the same price all of the time. Hoarding really shouldn't be a game mechanic.
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Captain Zombie's Combo chain calculator
Well I’m a pretty bold guy. There’s many different spending habits and playing styles in the game. My comment was from my perspective but then again, aren’t most comments from the commenters perspective?
I have 1 Spock and 1 Kirk. I'm not going to fuse until I've gotten 3 purple cites from the next 3 campaigns.
Hoarding shouldn’t be a game mechanic? What does your inventory look like? I have 20,000 alcohol just chilling... and that’s only one item type. How many duplicate characters do you suppose are out there in the game? How many chrons do you or anyone else possess? Merits?
You’re bothered because there is no certainty with the honor sale and because X has greater access to Y leading to greater chances at Z. That sounds like life in general...
I had 6 4* cites from previous campaigns waiting for the right crew. Kirk got 3 of them.
I can understand that. And those are the choices we make. However, to equate an honor sale to discrimination and psychological torture is absurd imho.
The reason I feel so strongly about it and use such strong language about it is that it is needless and artificial. All of you arguing 'that that's life' also need to remember that some suffering is unavoidable and random and some is avoidable and an offense. If you get cancer randomly that's just life, but if someone is contaminating your water supply, that's an offense.
At the end of the day TP don't have to have honor sales on an infrequent schedule or to have them at all, therefore they are responsible for the psychological harm, however minor, that deploying them the way they do causes. There is a huge amount of research in this area and they are relying on people's psychological pain to make a meagre extra few sales. The very fact that players adapt to their strategy suggests that the players are behaving the way they are doing to avoid regret. It is insane to me that you can argue 'well I have changed my behaviour to avoid psychological pain so that makes it ok for people to induce that defense in me'.
I don't agree with this. When I started playing this game, it felt a lot like any other mobile game designed to get players used to immediate gratification and then convince them to spend money in order to keep that gratification coming and reduce their frustration over its absence. Plus it has always had a huge gambling component, nicely disguised under a Star Trek banner. Those things can be considered ethically questionable and while the game has moved on to become a more complex product, some of the features are still based on them.
I don't think the honor sales and honor economy in general fall into that group though. Maybe for some players it's distressing to deal with the uncertainty of future sales (which could be removed if we had a clear schedule) but that doesn't mean that the whole thing is morally questionable. These sales are the only really enjoyable part of the game for me and I'm perfectly willing to wait for months for them. Other game features are nice, still others are plain annoying, but for someone who has played Timelines since 2016 there's almost nothing left that would be exciting. Honor sales are.
Even if they permanently reduced honor prices for cites and begolds, it wouldn't be the same. One cite has almost zero use for my crew and I would still have to wait at least a couple of weeks (depending on the price) to get another one. One begold has a very high chance of being completely useless and disappointing. Best case scenario, I will get a star for a card I already own or a new character that I like, but have no use for. That's nice, but I wouldn't call it fun.
Honor sales are fun for some of us. Those who perceive them as useless or distressing would probably benefit from a balanced mix of spending and saving honor. I don't think they rely on "psychological pain" just because for some players it's annoying not to know when and if they will happen. Otherwise every form of uncertainty and long-term planning in this game would qualify as psychological torture too. And there is uncertainty or long-time planning involved in almost every feature, at least for those who don't spend huge amounts of money.
Depends on the person. What is a small annoyance to some can be a major annoyance and stressor for others or worse. Some players get really annoyed if stats or the level of a crew isn’t even. That doesn’t bother me but I totally understand that. There are things that really bother or annoy me that don’t others. Then add in the addictive quality of these games. Something game companies have spent much money and time to design them specifically to be addictive and get people to spend money. Any mobile game can be addictive to people. Some players spend thousands or tens of thousands of dollars they can’t afford to lose on mobile games. Some people get stuck feeling they cannot ever leave the game.
I agree on all of that, but it doesn't change the fact that this is a subjective thing, in my opinion. The same complaints made against honor sales could be made against any other game feature.
I personally really hate galaxy events and the gauntlet. I tap through that stuff out of habit, FOMO and sometimes sheer rage. Others enjoy them and I will never understand why. But because of that I don't feel like I can describe them as torture or advocate for their removal.
I would not advocate removing honor sales but I do understand the frustration some find from the infrequency of them and not announced schedule for them. I know why TP does that but it can be hard.
I understand it too. I guess the infrequency can't be changed, but I think it would be better if there was a fixed schedule. Those who can afford to hoard resources will do it anyway and those who can't will still have to spend money if they want to take advantage of it.
This isn’t cancer or lead in a water supply. Those are items one would certainly need to deal with, and clearly may not be as easily avoided as this game... and this game is a choice.
You're getting hung up on semantics rather than taking my point on board. I was clearly using a simple example to make my point. TP are making a choice too don't forget and they should be judged for it. Humans have systemic psychological blind spots which mobile games already lean into. TP is going one further with these honor sales, creating inequities in the player population, causing needless stress to many players, which boils over into outrage, all in the service of a few measly dollars. They can clear the whole situation up by allowing the players know the frequency of these sales so that those that have to create strategies around honor hoarding don't have to be just guessing.
Can't imagine how you handle all the sales in the grocery store and don't buy you food, etc until its on sale. Apparently every grocery store does psychological torture according to your "sale" argument.
Wow, it's like you came into a thread and didn't read any of the posts that went before.
TLDR; Sales in grocery stores are driven by good faith needs to rotate inventory. This does not apply in the digital space. Also, sales in stores tend to be regular and frequent which is exactly what honor sales are not. Note I am not criticising their dilithium or pack sales, because they are by default on sale so frequently that it is no pain to wait.
Nope sorry I've read all the posts and I find it ridiculous that people have stress, etc over infrequent sales for ANYTHING.
How about this then. Look at all of the companies that do special Black Friday sales. Yeah its on a schedule, but talk about infrequent. Same principle but just as ridiculous. If you need/want something, buy it. If you can wait for a better deal, wait. Get over it and move along.
Both of these ideas have been suggested many times in the past.
A combination of both would stop hoarding and outcries for honor sale if thats how they wish to proceed. We dont need a form of currency that is not valued in everyday play. The vast majority save for honor hall crew and honor sale packs.
The cost of citations vs the amt of honor for a dismissed gold card is way out of balance. It does seem clear that WRG/TP does not like the honor sale as much as thir predecessors who added honor currency, honor hall, and honor sales packs to the game. If this is the case then why continue with an imbalanced system of currency? Change the system to the above 2 suggestions, balance the honor hall purchases (including crew) along with dismissal honor for all cards so that it is reasonable and most will be happy to forfeit honor sales packs. The system is so un-balanced ppl refuse to purchase a gold cite for 50k honor, then start screaming for honor sale. Lets figure out how to avoid this.
It would be a simple adjustment of balance in the currency earnings and usage. And just do away with honor sales if that is the direction they wish to go.
Or continue honor sale frequency as it was.
If prices are dropped, players will "hoard" anyway, 'cause it's only natural to keep honor just in case tomorror a killer crew appears in the honor hall, or you need to cite an unexpected crew, or any oter situation when you really need honor at the moment.
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Your dismissal of reality unfortunately doesn't change anything.
You understand that it's flawed right? It only benefits people who *can* save, therefore it's asymmetric in how it operates. Those who can't afford to save, ie newer players or poorer players don't benefit as much as wealthy or established players. It operates against the way normal game mechanics are supposed to work.
And more importantly it distorts player behaviour, in ways that TP don't even want. Most people just save all of their honor for these sales, and then when they start to doubt the sale is coming they get all upset about it, throw tantrums on the forums and in some ways force TP to run the sale. The whole thing is stupid. They should never have had the first sale, it immediately altered the landscape of the game re: honor.
As I've said before, this doesn't affect me at all, I never ran out of citations from the last sale, and I'm unlikely to do so before the next one either, unless there is a big jump in power creep, but it's bad for the game, and for some of the players.
I have no issue with hoarding, I have an issue with sales that have long and irregular gaps that benefit 'wealthy' and established players over 'poor' and newer players. I have seen the outpouring of emotion over them both privately and publicly here. People feel they 'can't' spend their honor outside of an honor sale.
Sure, there's just been a sale so there has been this giant catharsis in the community, but we'll just go through the same situation again in another year where people's expectations in regards to honor sales start to bleed into their feelings about the game.