Art feedback
Shan
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I am creating this thread to gather your productive feedback about your concerns regarding the art for crew.
The goal is to compile a comprehensive list, so please be as objective and as concise as possible, but feel free to point out specific details.
Thank you!
The goal is to compile a comprehensive list, so please be as objective and as concise as possible, but feel free to point out specific details.
Thank you!
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The red is where is arm is, and for the pose to work, his left upper arm would need to be considerably longer than is right arm (outlined in red). Based on his lower arm and hand position, he even has it at a slight angle, so it should be higher.
The easiest fix would be to slide the left arm up about 6-10 inches or so. Even better would be to move it out slightly and show the elbow (outlined in blue).
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In general, it just seems like there's been a quality decrease that corresponds with the increase in events and new crew. A specific, constructive suggestion is to slow down on new crew for a little while to help with the artwork (amongst other things). If the art team isn't having to pump out 3-5 crew per week, they can greater focus on the quality of the artwork. I know monetization needs are first and foremost, but a continued decline in artwork (even if perceived) can lead to a longer-term monetization problem.
1. Given that the style of art in the game has been photorealistic since the beginning, that's what should continue to be the case for all crew art.
When this standard is set aside, the results can be particularly jarring - e.g., Blood Oath Dax, or Commander Tomalak, both of whom would look fine if the artwork for the game were cartoony, but it isn't. Mirror Jadzia also stands out in a bad way for the linework and coloring on her art looking like she was done with fat markers on bleedy paper rather than the fine-tipped lines present in the majority of crew up until fairly recently.
2. Heads that do not match the bodies they're attached to in terms of proportion/pose/appropriate anatomical placement should be fixed, as should flipped headshots.
Examples: Agent Janeway looks like her head came from a doll where the head was removed and then jammed back on too hard - where's her neck? As for flipped headshots (e.g., Deanna Troi), almost no-one has a face that is so symmetrical that such reverses don't stick out like a sore thumb.
3. Costume errors should be rectified, especially those that result from what seems to be giving up on full detail partway through the drawing.
The latter seems to happen most frequently below the waist. Example: Deanna Troi, who is wearing a dress over tights and heels in the show, yet here the dress is a long tunic over chunky trousers and shoes.
As for the former, I'm sure everyone remembers the errors on Captain Sulu, whose original art didn't even have him as a Captain.
4. Avoid reuse of the same head on multiple versions of the same character, in essence turning them into paper dolls with different outfits.
This isn't always a deal-breaker, if it's a character that doesn't appear often, the releases are spaced out enough, and the costumes different enough to distract from this, but at least 2 characters from Enterprise, Archer and Mayweather, have gotten this treatment, and when it was done with Archer the releases were fairly close together.
5. Inaccurate depictions of actors shouldn't make it into the game.
If people can't tell right off the bat who a character was played by (barring unusual makeup circumstances like when Janeway or O'Brien are made up as Klingons), that's not good, especially when there are multiple excellent examples of artwork for the same character. Examples: Mirror Reed, who looks like a cross between Daniel Craig and Dominic Keating; Mirror Vic, who has nose/face structure issues that lead him to not look much like James Darren, particularly compared to the first Vic Fontaine released; 23rd Century Martok, whose head and face aren't even shaped like JG Hertzler's; or Mirror Data who fails on multiple levels, among them that he doesn't look like Brent Spiner at all.
6. Fix art mistakes properly rather than trying to fudge it in Photoshop and call it a day.
Captain Sulu is a good example of fixing errors, where the art was improved overall in addition to fixing the uniform problems.
A bad example is C.O.P. Founder Archer, where it's pretty obvious the artist must have originally drawn Archer with his Seasons 1 & 2 hair style versus the hair style he had during 3 & 4, and then either hadn't done the art in a way that permitted easy revision on their part or wasn't asked to fix the art at all and someone tried to fix it in-house and failed.
23rd Century Martok is still an abomination. I haven't yet seen an explanation of how the character would exist, unless Discovery has somehow accidentally ret-conned the Klingons to allow it. Plus the artwork has always been a point of contention as it is not pleasant.
excessive shadow effects eg kurros (there are better examples but when half the face is shadow it looks lazy)
Blurred features eg mirror reed
Not looking like the actual character /actor eg mirror data
Retro Street Fighter cartoon art ie tomalak
Martok speaks for itself
It feels like you don't care about your player base when you neglect quality control. There are so many examples of great art. I wish you would redo some of the bad ones. I'm seriously considering skipping this event. No dil spent on pulls, no dil on boosts. Surely this art pays for itself.
Older characters have more variety in their shading colours (purple, red etc.) and that helped to give more of a sense of uniqueness, and it complimented the art better (ie Kazon Seksa being purple and blue, and Frank Hollander using a darker, more orange-y yellow).
And as others have mentioned, there's an overall detail loss. The brushstrokes are thicker, the shading/lighting colours are thick and garish instead of being subtle and complimentary...and faces just don't feel as lifelike anymore.
EDIT: And thank-you to Shan for making this thread. I hope this is a sign that DB is considering reviewing and making changes to their art style.
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It would be nice if the artwork sizes were consistent, it just looks lazy when it's not.
A great example is hair. Older characters have hair that is distinctly drawn and shaded. Newer characters have what I can only describe as playdoh spaghetti on top of their heads (see Lt Valeris vs Mirror Jadzia, for example of two similar hairstyles with very different renderings).
Another example is in the hands / fingers. Older characters have fingers that are separated distinctly by highlights and shading. Mirror Data has a groot fist jutting out from his hip. You can distinctly see the fingernails on Ensign Pazlar or Captain Proton. Honey Bear has a sausage thumb.
These are just a few things that jump out to me as a lay person. I'm sure that actual graphic designers have more constructive things to say. Since the art is one of the main draws of the game, to have a decrease in quality this substantial and noticeable is both disappointing and a disincentive to spend on further collecting characters.
I personally will be collecting my free Mirror Data and Vic on Monday and will not be spending a dime otherwise until the quality of the workproduct improves.
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However, what's far more important to me is that a lot of good people are very discouraged about this. So I'm going to add my voice to theirs, that this is an important issue that needs addressing, and I'd ask that DB really make this a priority. I have no idea what it would cost to buff the artistic design team, but on the whole I have to believe that it would be worth it for everyone.
The data, as I've said as disappointing as he is I could exempt from all this if he was the only issue.. OR if the Picard (mirror) was of the same style.. but Picard is leaps and bounds ahead of the data in style, quality and most importantly to me resemblance to actor.
If the Picard looked all Charlie Brown and it was a specific line/series I'd be way more good with it.
(Like themed black and white characters Aracnia Janeway, Proton Paris, president of Earth ect)
But he's not.. he (data) just doesn't reach your previous or my current standard.
And the arm thing.. I didn't even see that until this thread. Yikes.
Vic (mirror) didn't resemble James Darren other then he's a white guy with grey hair.
He looks more like Taylor Hicks
And that can't be blamed on an on again, off again comic style.
The Jadzia , does look like Terry.
Which is the most important thing in my books
But the work done to create her, looking at it through technical eyes is poor.
It's like a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy. It's the multiplicity effect. Every time you clone a clone you lose important ingredients.
And the Mirror Reed lol.
My wife couldn't identify him. (Nor could she with Vic)
She thought he was a Vulcan at first.
I thought he looked like he had the mumps.
A very very bad case of the mumps.
And what was even worse was that the 3 star sniper Reed was in the prize table next to him.
That only points out even more.
The work on sniper Reed is 5* worthy.
The actual 5* looks pre-release beta quality
Doesn't look like the actor at all.
The Divinci, I can see John Rhyes Davis
I can see Majal in Commander Chapelle.
To me, they are ok
(Between that and the first ever Trifecta traits in Di Vinci , I bought 2 packs pre event for the 1st time ever, and 2nd time over all that I bought any pre event start)
I was open to doing 1 for this event if the art and stats had been good.. but neither are.
At the announcement of the mega event I was hyped. I thought to myself "awesome, DB level quality on some great concept work from the tng comic, look at the Picard.. can't wait to see the rest ! "
I actually said that to my wife who was hyped for mirror but unsure About non Canon tng popping up.
I don't know if this was as concise as it should be.. but I hope it helps to provide you with references to the quality expected.
Turn it back into a team, even if it's only a team of 2, as opposed to one poor soul who has to generate several cards per week.
To me it seems clear that DB has slashed staffing in all departments, or "right-sizing" as they called it, and this has had a most severely visible effect on the artwork. Old images were treated with care, perhaps too much which spoiled us, while new images are extremely rushed and basically incomplete in comparison.
I would like to hear from DB with regard their intent - if they have no intention of returning to previous standards that's fine, just say so. Honesty and communication defeat large portions of player base venting into the abyss. Even if the communication is seen as negative.
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The crew headshots used to be the same size and the varying sizes really get my OCD going.
Mirror Archer’s full body artwork has an incorrect aspect ratio, making him appear skewed tall and thin. This has never been fixed.
There are also some crew who have very low resolution head shot artwork that has never been fixed, such as Orion Vina and Assimilated Janeway.
I find Ensign Vorik really awkward. His artwork is obviously captured from the episode where he sits at the conference table with his elbows on the table and his hands folded. DB chose the same pose, but standing without the table. It looks like he is leaning forward on something that doesn’t exist. No one stands like that.
Also does Gorn Captain really need the huge rock in his head shot? It should be removed so he has a transparent background because it busts out of the box really poorly. It’s fine for characters that have an item or part of their head or a hat sticking out, but it looks just wrong here.
Holo Doc’s head shot has his golf club clipped over his shoulder and it looks weird.
My other main gripe is with Da Vinci's beard. As has been mentioned there has been a lot of har that looks too smooth and without definition. Da Vinci's beard looks more like a plastic grocery bag than hair. Compare his beard to Prisoner O'Brien's where you can see some individual groupings of whiskers. Or Musketeer La Forge's giant wig or Gralik Durr's beautiful silvery locks.
The inconsistency between what they look like in the episode and in game. Especially with Klingon O’Brien
I want to set the correct expectations. Art for existing crew is not likely to be modified and I cannot make any guarantees for the future.
But I want to be able to forward concrete feedback that I hope we will be able to take into consideration.
If I see my "old" Data I could clearly see that this is Data, but the Mirror Data does not even look like Data.
He looks somewhat generic, except his Hair, this is OK. I think he is missing details and missing shadows might play a role - but since I'm not an artist I really can not say what it is missing.
By the way, I started leveling Mirror Kirk today, I have to say, THAT is a great Artwork, especial his Face.
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Phoenix Cochrane is great art.
That is depressing.. But honest.
I value the honesty but the potential implications are disturbing.
Would it be possible for players to submit art that you can Vet / get approved / do your licencing thing for and use that in future characters instead of whatever led to mirror Reed, Data, Vic & Klingon O'Brien ?
Maybe set up a small group of artists who play the game and are willing to contribute ..
I'd happily sign a binding non disclosure on future characters and plots if it means I can help improve the quality... And get paid in premium portals for myself and wife.
(Seriously. I smile, but I'm serious)
Agreed. I would hope that DB will change their stance on this, as so much of the existing crew needs a makeover. And I'm not talking about redoing the ones that are fairly well-represented characterizations within the new style of "quick-and-dirty and a lot less detail"... I'm talking about ones that are just badly-done artwork.
Example: I will never want that Mirror Data on my crew, despite being a Data collector, as the drawing looks like it was done by a junior high school student who was killing time in study hall, not the work of a professional artist (besides that fact that it also looks nothing like Brent Spiner). In his current state, he's an abomination, in my opinion. But if that were to be changed so it was of the quality of any of the previous Datas, I would spend $100 to get him, and lots of dil on packs to FF him.
There are other existing crew who I'd be a lot more excited about if the artwork was improved — even ones who I might not necessarily be that keen on otherwise, as a character.
Of course, in the future, it should go without saying that there is a direct correlation between how good the art is and how much money I will spend on an event. There is also a direct correlation between how bad the art is, and how much more likely I am to consider leaving the game for good, with each new disappointment.
Could you please continue the petty bickering? I find it most intriguing.
~ Data, ST:TNG "Haven"
It hurts, that I know I myself and bet at least a half a dozen other people on here could even salvage / repair the existing art with in.. an hour. Maybe two.. and make it something that could appease or even please the vast majority.
Additional to my previous offer / thought / suggestion . If not able/ willing to accept incoming art from the community or a special non disclosure group as described above..
Then please consider a non disclosure, Approval group for new art, so as to get the pulse of a sample of the community and allow them to provide insight how to improve it prior to release and prevent things like this from happening again.
I don't blame DB, they copied the comic book art pretty much exactly. Except, it's pretty clear the comic book art isn't of the same quality as past DB character art.
EDIT: Actually, I'm being hypocritical. Mirror Picard looks good. This Data looks horrific.
Please consider reworking past crew with bad artwork and improve standards going forward.
Some issues apply across the board and intersect in these examples. However I've attempted to use these images to illustrate (har har) some specifics.
I'm using a lot of faces because they are the focal point of the card, and the primary thing we notice & care about. However, the clothing and hair matter too:
- If you only read one of these, please make it this one. Does this card inspire me to participate, compete and/or pay for it? Would I have started playing the game if this card was presented as what was to be expected?
- Lt Commander & 1701 Jadzia: soft blended neon light in purposeful colours that go with and enhance the specific images; life-like details & gradient shading of the face; visible hairs with depth; I feel like I am looking at Jadzia/Teri Farrell.
- Mirror Jadzia: hard neon light overwhelming the image, no visible hairs (single block), skin uses limited colour palate & limited variance of shade giving a feeling of flatness. I am disconnected with Jadzia/Teri.
Likewise:
+ all the same comparisons apply as with the Jadzias ^
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- Does the image bear a strong resemblance to the character/actor?
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- Is the image clear?
These are also good examples of:
- Captain Janeway: life-like hues, soft (blended!) skin highlights add to depth, & subtle/suitable neon glow which adds to the image.
- Kathryn Janeway: greyer/washed out (though nicely blended) skin & uniform colours, + chunky neon glow is overwhelming & takes away from the image.
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- Hair: Is there depth, contrast and detail; can I see hairs?
- Chapel's hair is blocky. These images are also good examples of perfect thickness, subtle blended neon lighting (on Seven) vs hard blocky overwhelming neon lighting (on Chapel).
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- Attire: Is there significant texture & gradient shading?
- In Chapel's uniform (right) my brain is left to fill in the gaps. That's good for abstract and impressionist art forms, but I don't think that's what we're going for in a Trek card game.
(I've used Commander Chapel's hair and uniform as examples purposefully because the lack of finer detail in the hair and absence of shading on her uniform are a jarring clash with her face. The face was enjoyed by players more than most recent art, as it has depth and accurately resembles Majel Barrett -
although it could also use more gradient blending, especially depending the platform we're playing on.)
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- Is the neon glow add epicness?
- Subtle blended glow on Commander Spock allows his face to take prominence. Also we can see his hairs, and his face is fresh in colour and full of depth and life-like skin detail.
- Unblended chunky glow on Laborer Spock overwhelms his face. Also his hair is more of a uniform block, and his skin like Kathryn Janeway is less lifelike; less fresh and nuanced.
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- Composition/balance:
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- Klingon Ridges:
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- Please use gradients for shading instead of these block colours:
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Other requests:
- Scale: Please scale the full cards evenly so that for example, President of Earth is easier to see on our devices & to scale with other crew in gauntlet and on the bridge.
- Cropping: Please crop headshots evenly. Not too big, not too small. I actually like bigger headshots so more visible, but within reason.
Too small: Ilia Probe, President of Earth, Sheriff of Nottingham Q, Lal
Too big: Buster Kincaid Kim, Commander Chapel (not sure if these have been fixed?)
Just right: Command Hologram, Mobile Doctor, Mirror Phlox, Seven of Nine
- In crew quarters, please do not grey out crew who are on voyages/shuttles/battle stations or have that written across their faces. Small icons of ship/shuttle/etc or letters V/S/B in the corner would suffice. Currently, most favourite and primary crew are greyed out, and the text makes it busier than I think is necessary.
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In summary, the newer art typically uses broad blocky strokes, sacrificing detail, contrast and depth, making the product far less life-like.
Using smooth gradient shading for all aspects of the card, a more full and contrasting colour palate, and toning back down and softening the neon glow as in the examples above - would help the art and game to shine.
Artistic talent is not scarce: There are many great artists who would love to do pieces for DB. Mike Gardner is still a fan favourite, and if he's not available, there are others out there too who would do justice to the characters we love.
Thanks!
~· Fly with the Subspace Eddies! ·~
Absolutely fantastic post! Thank you for showing all those examples. Couldn't agree more with everything you said.
Could you please continue the petty bickering? I find it most intriguing.
~ Data, ST:TNG "Haven"
-Characters (especially faces) were not just photorealistic, but far more realistic and stunning than any photo. The skin glowed just perfectly, with details that made the character jump right off the page, and the hair looked real.
-Faces were three dimensional, not flat, with contrasts of light and dark, with just the right colors in the highlights. It felt like you could step right into the scene and tap the character on the shoulder.
-There was lots of detail, so much that you could get lost in it, in a good way.
-Faces looked exactly like who they were supposed to.
-The use of side lighting was well done and subtle. It varied from character, and brought out the highlights in the painting.
Now, some of the things that have bothered me recently:
-Flat, muddy skin tone. No glow. No shading. No three dimensionality. T’Mir is an example.
-An attempt to get skin tone and three dimensionality and *personality* right, but it falls flat on its face. Contrast 2* Kathryn Janeway with Captain Janeway. Kathryn Janeway has a flat-eyed stare that looks like a corpse or a zombie. It is not so bad until you look at them side by side, but the contrast of Captain Janeway’s welcoming warmth makes her 2* counterpart hard to look at.
-Lack of detail, sloppiness, just a few broad strokes that looks like it was done in an hour or less. I want to buy this card...why? A photo would be better. (An example would be Klingon O’Brien, whom I would dub “melty-face O’Brien.” He just looks terrible. But even just plain lack of detail is bad, as in some of the low level Bashirs.
-Art that does not look like the actor. I was so excited when I heard that Mirror Vic Fontaine was coming to the game. I was going to rush out and buy him. Then I saw the art. It is beautifully done, if you don’t care who you are looking at. James Darren has always been one of my favorite actors. This art is not him, and not Vic Fontaine from the series. (There were great photo references available from the episode, but apparently the artist did not even look at them.) And we won’t even get into Mirror Reed, who looks like David Duchovny.
-Bad cropping. Could we please have all the heads in the character portraits about the same size? Not huge, not tiny. The way they were in the beginning was just right.
-Bodies out of proportion. I was going after Mirror Data — and then I saw that huge cannon arm, and even worse, the left arm that doesn’t even look like an arm it is so long. I’m sorry. I just don’t want to have to look at him in my crew. (And then there was “potato head” Martok, the first of the really bad crew art, because of his huge, squashy head.)
-Lack of quality control. It is very hard to believe that some of these problems are not being caught by the art director.
Finally, I would like to say that not all recent art is bad. I absolutely love Mirror Picard. He is one of my favorites. It does not even matter that he looks just like the mirror trek comic book Picard. In fact, that is a plus in my book. And I also really like the Discovery crew art — Tilly, Lorca, Stamets, Burnham, and Georgiou.
Also, Shan, your starting this thread and passing on our comments is greatly appreciated. Hopefully, we will see improved artwork in the future.
Taron
Aka Taran of eXo and Taralie of VIP0
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- I absolutely love the style originally established by Mike Gardener, and I hope you will keep that as your standard to strive for.
- Tomalak and the similarly cartoony Jadzia would be fine in a different venue, but here they are just jarring. In any case, they are not to my taste, and I am not sure how much I would play if this were the dominant art style,
-On the other hand, Vina and the Borg Queen are also in a different art style, but I like this art, and would be happy to see additional art in this same style.