New Apple dev guidelines require to disclose drop chances in loot boxes for all iTunes apps

Jim Raynor

That's quite a surprise. Apple chips in and their new dev guidelines require to disclose drop chances in loot boxes (from now on?). Why wait for legislation when Apple decides to resolve this the ToS-way.

3.1 Payments

3.1.1 In-App Purchase:

Apps offering “loot boxes” or other mechanisms that provide randomized virtual items for purchase must disclose the odds of receiving each type of item to customers prior to purchase.

https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/#in-app-purchase


That is going to be some interesting holidays.

Speckles the Destroyer of Worlds

I imagine there will be a grace period for existing apps. It will be interesting to see how this gets implemented in future updates though.

I'm really interested in seeing how it affects sales when people see that the "best of" packs have a ridiculously tiny chance to win anything.

Jim Raynor

That is really a huge bombshell from Apple right before the Holidays. This will scramble the whole market and affect every single app. I doubt that any developer will pull his app from iTunes to avoid the disclosure.

Jim Raynor

Some links, this is spreading everywhere in the last few hours. According to the Rolling Stone this change was made during this week but it seems that nobody has noticed it until today.

https://www.rollingstone.com/glixel/news/apple-now-requires-developers-to-list-odds-for-loot-boxes-w514528

https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/21/16805674/apple-loot-box-app-store-games-odds-probability-disclosure

https://www.rollingstone.com/glixel/news/apple-now-requires-developers-to-list-odds-for-loot-boxes-w514528

Dr. Anomaly

Do you suppose that DB will contend this applies only to Gauntlet crates, so we still won't find out the odds in "Best Chance" packs?

Pallidyne

I'm betting most apps will try to use the "its purchased with virtual currency" loophole... it'll delay things while they get hashed out at least.

Althea Biermont

Dr. Anomaly wrote: »

Do you suppose that DB will contend this applies only to Gauntlet crates, so we still won't find out the odds in "Best Chance" packs?

No. It's pretty clear. Anything in the game that has randomized items. That would mean everything in the portal except for the guarantees like the "X" number of Chronitons for "Y" dollars where you know exactly and specifically what you are receiving.

[DB-DO BETTER] [7TW] Captain plim123

Althea Biermont wrote: »

Dr. Anomaly wrote: »

Do you suppose that DB will contend this applies only to Gauntlet crates, so we still won't find out the odds in "Best Chance" packs?

No. It's pretty clear. Anything in the game that has randomized items. That would mean everything in the portal except for the guarantees like the "X" number of Chronitons for "Y" dollars where you know exactly and specifically what you are receiving.

yeah, but like Pallindyne said - apps might try to get out of it by saying loot boxes are acquired by trading in dilithium - they are not "purchased"

For Cardassia

I'm actually quite curious about the odds (not in a complaining sort of way, I just want to know), so I hope we see this soon.

[SSR] GTMET

You could actually argue that every single away mission, shuttle mission, voyage, uses an in game currency since they offer merits and chrons for purchase

Pallidyne

[TFA] GTMET wrote: »

You could actually argue that every single away mission, shuttle mission, voyage, uses an in game currency since they offer merits and chrons for purchase

Lol wouldn't that be a kick in the pants to have actual drop odds posted rather than the relative nonsense of the pips.

Althea Biermont

[DB-DO BETTER] [7TW] Captain plim123 wrote: »

Althea Biermont wrote: »

Dr. Anomaly wrote: »

Do you suppose that DB will contend this applies only to Gauntlet crates, so we still won't find out the odds in "Best Chance" packs?

No. It's pretty clear. Anything in the game that has randomized items. That would mean everything in the portal except for the guarantees like the "X" number of Chronitons for "Y" dollars where you know exactly and specifically what you are receiving.

yeah, but like Pallindyne said - apps might try to get out of it by saying loot boxes are acquired by trading in dilithium - they are not "purchased"

That's covered if you go to the link. In game currency is covered farther up in the article

Commander Morak

“Each type of item”?

I get to know the odds of a 5* drop! Yay!

<pulls 5* ship schematics>

sorinev

I 100% gaurantee you DB finds a way around it, whatever that may look like. Companies that are run the way DB is will fight tooth and nail on these things to the bitter end, so we'll just have to see how it develops.

Althea Biermont

I don't think DB has the resources to fight it. After cutting so much staff, I'm guessing they can't afford a long, extended, expensive legal battle against Apple.

Pallidyne

Well in the past Apple has also simply pulled apps that weren't compliant with their terms. They've got the upper hand.

[RotP] Scoustar

Pallidyne wrote: »

Well in the past Apple has also simply pulled apps that weren't compliant with their terms. They've got the upper hand.

Very this. I'd hope Apple (and Facebook, etc) simply demand a towing of the line, and any disputes lead to removal until compliance.

Not to have a downer on loot boxes generally, but I do prefer transparency.

sorinev

Althea Biermont wrote: »

I don't think DB has the resources to fight it. After cutting so much staff, I'm guessing they can't afford a long, extended, expensive legal battle against Apple.

Yeah, doubtful. What I meant though was that they'll just keep changing things to technically be compliant while also avoiding showing the chances. Whatever changes get made to TOS by Apple/Google, there will be an accompanying change by DB to keep it secret. Never underestimate a company like DB. They. Will. Find. A. Way. I do very much hope to be wrong though.

Data1001

sorinev wrote: »

Althea Biermont wrote: »

I don't think DB has the resources to fight it. After cutting so much staff, I'm guessing they can't afford a long, extended, expensive legal battle against Apple.

Yeah, doubtful. What I meant though was that they'll just keep changing things to technically be compliant while also avoiding showing the chances. Whatever changes get made to TOS by Apple/Google, there will be an accompanying change by DB to keep it secret. Never underestimate a company like DB. They. Will. Find. A. Way. I do very much hope to be wrong though.

I don't understand what the problem is if they do have to state the odds of all the loot boxes and such. We all sort of know them, anyway, so it's not like it's going to turn off the majority of players.

[RotP] Scoustar

Data1001 wrote: »

sorinev wrote: »

Althea Biermont wrote: »

I don't think DB has the resources to fight it. After cutting so much staff, I'm guessing they can't afford a long, extended, expensive legal battle against Apple.

Yeah, doubtful. What I meant though was that they'll just keep changing things to technically be compliant while also avoiding showing the chances. Whatever changes get made to TOS by Apple/Google, there will be an accompanying change by DB to keep it secret. Never underestimate a company like DB. They. Will. Find. A. Way. I do very much hope to be wrong though.

I don't understand what the problem is if they do have to state the odds of all the loot boxes and such. We all sort of know them, anyway, so it's not like it's going to turn off the majority of players.

But it would turn off some. "I get WHAT chance?!?"

If DB wanted us to know, they'd have told us already. There's a reason they haven't. Not saying it's sinister, but it is factual.

Dralix

Data1001 wrote: »

I don't understand what the problem is if they do have to state the odds of all the loot boxes and such. We all sort of know them, anyway, so it's not like it's going to turn off the majority of players.

The issue for the company is that they'll get flooded with tickets saying "I opened 10 chests with a 10% chance of X. This should have guaranteed I got one, and I didn't."


And when people say that "a company like DB" will try to get around this - let's not kid ourselves. That's almost all companies.

Commander Morak

DB doesn’t have to find a way. “Type of item” is deliberately vague allowing DB to generalize.

Your disclosure is likely to read:

Best Chance Pack odds:
Legendary 3%
Super Rare: 10%
Rare: 87%


And that’s compliant. Nothing about ‘featured’ or schematics vs characters.

This just makes Apple look good with minimal changes to the actual design.

Data1001

[RotP] Scoustar wrote: »

Data1001 wrote: »

I don't understand what the problem is if they do have to state the odds of all the loot boxes and such. We all sort of know them, anyway, so it's not like it's going to turn off the majority of players.

But it would turn off some. "I get WHAT chance?!?"

If DB wanted us to know, they'd have told us already. There's a reason they haven't. Not saying it's sinister, but it is factual.

Maybe. And I get why DB might be upset if they had to do it, but if games all over the place are doing it, as well, I honestly don't think it'd be a game changer (no pun intended).

Travis S McClain

[RotP] Scoustar wrote: »

Data1001 wrote: »

sorinev wrote: »

Althea Biermont wrote: »

I don't think DB has the resources to fight it. After cutting so much staff, I'm guessing they can't afford a long, extended, expensive legal battle against Apple.

Yeah, doubtful. What I meant though was that they'll just keep changing things to technically be compliant while also avoiding showing the chances. Whatever changes get made to TOS by Apple/Google, there will be an accompanying change by DB to keep it secret. Never underestimate a company like DB. They. Will. Find. A. Way. I do very much hope to be wrong though.

I don't understand what the problem is if they do have to state the odds of all the loot boxes and such. We all sort of know them, anyway, so it's not like it's going to turn off the majority of players.

But it would turn off some. "I get WHAT chance?!?"

If DB wanted us to know, they'd have told us already. There's a reason they haven't. Not saying it's sinister, but it is factual.

This will apply to all game apps, though, so it's not as though only DB is being compelled to reveal that data. My guess is that they, and every other game maker, is waiting to see what odds everyone else publishes in hopes that theirs won't look any worse than the average.

[RotP] Scoustar

Travis S McClain wrote: »

[RotP] Scoustar wrote: »

Data1001 wrote: »

sorinev wrote: »

Althea Biermont wrote: »

I don't think DB has the resources to fight it. After cutting so much staff, I'm guessing they can't afford a long, extended, expensive legal battle against Apple.

Yeah, doubtful. What I meant though was that they'll just keep changing things to technically be compliant while also avoiding showing the chances. Whatever changes get made to TOS by Apple/Google, there will be an accompanying change by DB to keep it secret. Never underestimate a company like DB. They. Will. Find. A. Way. I do very much hope to be wrong though.

I don't understand what the problem is if they do have to state the odds of all the loot boxes and such. We all sort of know them, anyway, so it's not like it's going to turn off the majority of players.

But it would turn off some. "I get WHAT chance?!?"

If DB wanted us to know, they'd have told us already. There's a reason they haven't. Not saying it's sinister, but it is factual.

This will apply to all game apps, though, so it's not as though only DB is being compelled to reveal that data. My guess is that they, and every other game maker, is waiting to see what odds everyone else publishes in hopes that theirs won't look any worse than the average.

Yeah it'd be bad for them if their odds are super bad, but to my mind this game isn't that bad price-wise, just has very odd ideas about RNG.

Travis S McClain

Commander Morak wrote: »

DB doesn’t have to find a way. “Type of item” is deliberately vague allowing DB to generalize.

Your disclosure is likely to read:

Best Chance Pack odds:
Legendary 3%
Super Rare: 10%
Rare: 87%


And that’s compliant. Nothing about ‘featured’ or schematics vs characters.

This just makes Apple look good with minimal changes to the actual design.

Unless, as some have wondered, this extends to things like the drop rates of items in missions. There, we already know that the drop rate for things like a 0* Science Experiment are more in line with the drop rate for a 4* Casing than they are with, say, a 0* Starfleet Uniform Pattern. In that case, the only choice would be to publish itemized drop rates, or rewrite everything to standardize item drop rates by rarity--which seems like the way it should have been done in the first place. Calling a Science Experiment "basic" instead of "rare" given its drop rate is just baffling.

eXo | SilverRose (retired)

I'm pretty curious also about what happens when the displayed drop rates are wrong now that Apple is requiring disclosure. DB has had a number of pack errors lately where the wrong variants of characters are dropping or are not included in the loot table at all. What's the change in recourse (if any) if the chance of getting Muskeeter La Forge is advertised as 3% but is actually 0%. Instead of being an issue between DB and me, is this now something that might be an issue with DB and Apple due to the guideline requirements?

For Cardassia

eXo | SilverRose wrote: »

I'm pretty curious also about what happens when the displayed drop rates are wrong now that Apple is requiring disclosure. DB has had a number of pack errors lately where the wrong variants of characters are dropping or are not included in the loot table at all. What's the change in recourse (if any) if the chance of getting Muskeeter La Forge is advertised as 3% but is actually 0%. Instead of being an issue between DB and me, is this now something that might be an issue with DB and Apple due to the guideline requirements?

I imagine that in this situation Apple could serve as an escalation point. You'd go to DB first, and if they ignore you/don't help, you can send an email to Apple and ask for a refund of your purchase or something.

Sort of like when you buy from a 3rd party on Amazon. They always make you contact the seller first, but then you can escalate to Amazon if the seller isn't being helpful/responding.

Jim Raynor

eXo | SilverRose wrote: »

I'm pretty curious also about what happens when the displayed drop rates are wrong now that Apple is requiring disclosure. DB has had a number of pack errors lately where the wrong variants of characters are dropping or are not included in the loot table at all. What's the change in recourse (if any) if the chance of getting Muskeeter La Forge is advertised as 3% but is actually 0%. Instead of being an issue between DB and me, is this now something that might be an issue with DB and Apple due to the guideline requirements?

Imho it has always been a case between DB and Apple in this special case where ingame purchases don't match the advertisement. DB has accepted Apple's ToS to be able to offer their App in their store and use their payment system. If DB does wrong advertisement without giving a refund/compensation (errors can always happen but they have to get fixed) they violate Apple's ToS.

Zombie Squirrel

Dralix wrote: »

Data1001 wrote: »

I don't understand what the problem is if they do have to state the odds of all the loot boxes and such. We all sort of know them, anyway, so it's not like it's going to turn off the majority of players.

The issue for the company is that they'll get flooded with tickets saying "I opened 10 chests with a 10% chance of X. This should have guaranteed I got one, and I didn't."


And when people say that "a company like DB" will try to get around this - let's not kid ourselves. That's almost all companies.

And this is the is exactly why ppl get mad at DB, they don t know how chances and math works. Having a 10% drop chance, doesn t mean that with the 10th pull you get a legendary. You can get get 2 in a row, or zero with 15 pulls. Thats how chances work!

eXo | Cadet Matt

For Cardassia wrote: »

eXo | SilverRose wrote: »

I'm pretty curious also about what happens when the displayed drop rates are wrong now that Apple is requiring disclosure. DB has had a number of pack errors lately where the wrong variants of characters are dropping or are not included in the loot table at all. What's the change in recourse (if any) if the chance of getting Muskeeter La Forge is advertised as 3% but is actually 0%. Instead of being an issue between DB and me, is this now something that might be an issue with DB and Apple due to the guideline requirements?

I imagine that in this situation Apple could serve as an escalation point. You'd go to DB first, and if they ignore you/don't help, you can send an email to Apple and ask for a refund of your purchase or something.

Sort of like when you buy from a 3rd party on Amazon. They always make you contact the seller first, but then you can escalate to Amazon if the seller isn't being helpful/responding.

This very well may be what happens, though Apple tends to err on the side of customers against developers fairly often - pulling or suspending apps first and asking questions later. I imagine that if they receive multiple accounts of a violation that they might be more assertive in this process. I guess we'll see soon enough.