I agree that, if nothing else, Legendary Characters should reward more Honor when dismissed. I wouldn't say anything about Vogages though, that's a surefire way to plant the bug for another Voyage nerf rather than an Honor buff.
So with the whole Picard debacle maybe its time to re-open this debate @Shan@Erin
If the Picard could have be exchanged for 10% towards a different Gold maybe there wouldn't have been so much ill feeling by DBs paying customers! I understand that you want the honour to be gradually occurring but how many times do people airlock Legendaries, unless they already have them FF.
550 honor doesn't get you much and pales into insignificance when voyages, the daily rewards and fleet rewards are taken into account.
Jim
Jim it's for that reason a lot of people stockpile honor I'm at 436k and climbing I don't play the gauntlet so meh to whoever the new "special" card is.
Citations are good but certainly not worth the exchange of gold dismissals for gold citations. The honor hall reminds me of those cash for gold places where you bring in expensive items and get paid 5c on the dollar.
There are two changes that I would like to see. Implementing one or the other I think would go a long ways towards solving this problem.
1: Increase honor rewards for 5* dismissals.
Somewhere between a 5:1 and 10:1 for dismissals-to-citation seems like a much more appropriate ratio to me. If DB continues with the paradigm of "reward everyone a 5*" for major problems, this change would take a lot of the sting out of getting you you already have fused.
2: Mitigate the impact or possibility of an all-immortal behold.
Basically, give spenders a reason to spend. One of the worst rollercoasters in this game is getting a behold...only to realize you don't actually have a use for any of the characters rewarded. Personally, I think randomly getting an all-immortalized pull should be rewarded with a greater reward, since you've put all the effort into immortalizing those crew already and grant a Citation of the appropriate rarity.
This change would encourage players to fully immortalize as many characters as they can, where the current systems presents a significant loss if you have a fully-immortalized pull.
Just a thought but in theory, DB could grant our wishes on higher HP for dismissed (airlocked) 4* & 5*. If they at the same time raise the bar for those citations (using the increased HP payout as justification), we'd be much worse off and people here would be even more pissed.
Anyone consider requesting a lowering of requirements?
In the immortal words of Spock: "Live long and prosper"
Just a thought but in theory, DB could grant our wishes on higher HP for dismissed (airlocked) 4* & 5*. If they at the same time raise the bar for those citations (using the increased HP payout as justification), we'd be much worse off and people here would be even more pissed.
Anyone consider requesting a lowering of requirements?
I think it is assumed that you only move one side of the equation for it to be beneficial. They could just as easily with your proposal lower the requirement and lower the dismissal points per.
In addition it has been done as well as a suggestion. However, I think the consensus was the best way to preserve some form of harder ratio for 5* acquisition vs 4 vs 3 vs 2, as well as the value of dismissal ratio as well was going the way of the current proposal.
I really don't care either way, it would be nicer for some change in the calculous for a duplicate to be worth the risk on some pack purchases. I completely abstain from non-event packs that are themed that I have more than one of the 4s FFed. I miss out on a lot of characters I want that way but with a lot less disappointment on the value I got for my money.
Just a thought but in theory, DB could grant our wishes on higher HP for dismissed (airlocked) 4* & 5*. If they at the same time raise the bar for those citations (using the increased HP payout as justification), we'd be much worse off and people here would be even more pissed.
Anyone consider requesting a lowering of requirements?
They made a post at one point that they would be a lot more amenable to change the quantity of honor awarded than adjusting the price in the honor hall.
(Not saying I buy the rationale, just that I remember a post to that affect)
All I know for sure, is the honor rates are worthless to me, so between limited crew slots and high chance of zero return on packs, it forces me not to waste my money or dil.
Instead I'll find somebody that will provide me with something of higher value, and somebody that understands customer service.
All I know for sure, is the honor rates are worthless to me, so between limited crew slots and high chance of zero return on packs, it forces me not to waste my money or dil.
Instead I'll find somebody that will provide me with something of higher value, and somebody that understands customer service.
Honestly, I'm not in favor of the exchange rate now, but it is better then when we just got trainers. That was total BS. (And if you still want trainers you can get em with honor and cheaper than the trainer turn in for the original dismissal value)
Just a thought but in theory, DB could grant our wishes on higher HP for dismissed (airlocked) 4* & 5*. If they at the same time raise the bar for those citations (using the increased HP payout as justification), we'd be much worse off and people here would be even more pissed.
Anyone consider requesting a lowering of requirements?
They made a post at one point that they would be a lot more amenable to change the quantity of honor awarded than adjusting the price in the honor hall.
(Not saying I buy the rationale, just that I remember a post to that affect)
I recall the same post too, Rex. I'm just wondering what is missing in the community's arguments that isn't budging DB?
"We huffed and we puffed... Why didn't the damned house come falling down?!?!"
In the immortal words of Spock: "Live long and prosper"
All I know for sure, is the honor rates are worthless to me, so between limited crew slots and high chance of zero return on packs, it forces me not to waste my money or dil.
Instead I'll find somebody that will provide me with something of higher value, and somebody that understands customer service.
Honestly, I'm not in favor of the exchange rate now, but it is better then when we just got trainers. That was total *hugs*. (And if you still want trainers you can get em with honor and cheaper than the trainer turn in for the original dismissal value)
I will concur, a pittance of honor is theoretically better than a pittance of trainers.
Unfortunately, we're still stuck with a pittance that is more of an insult than incentive.
Just a thought but in theory, DB could grant our wishes on higher HP for dismissed (airlocked) 4* & 5*. If they at the same time raise the bar for those citations (using the increased HP payout as justification), we'd be much worse off and people here would be even more pissed.
Anyone consider requesting a lowering of requirements?
They made a post at one point that they would be a lot more amenable to change the quantity of honor awarded than adjusting the price in the honor hall.
(Not saying I buy the rationale, just that I remember a post to that affect)
I recall the same post too, Rex. I'm just wondering what is missing in the community's arguments that isn't budging DB?
"We huffed and we puffed... Why didn't the damned house come falling down?!?!"
They haven't done anything because there has been a lack of community response to it. If recent history shows us anything, they respond (quickly) to significant community pressure.
Until there's significant community pressure on this issue, I doubt anything will change.
Create a ticket every time you see a fully fused behold and ask for compensation. The worst thing that happens is they decline to compensate you, but at least that frustration is reflected in their metrics.
As was mentioned above, we need to make more of a protest to be noticed. Wish I had seen this earlier this morning, had two beholds that were full of immortalized crew. From now on I will send a ticket every time just to give extra voice to our issue with the beholds.
...Another goal of Honor was to reduce the player frustration we recognize has been occurring when Captains open Time Portal packs and find a bunch of duplicate crew...
For those interested, there is a wealth of discussion that has been had on the topic on the old forums:
I think that there is considerable evidence that the current honor exchange rates have not effectively met the goal of reducing the player frustration with duplicates. Given that we cannot trade these cards, any analogy to TCG packs is flawed.
I suggest that in addition to the many threads listed above, that there are more discussions that these don't accurately account for. Namely, those discussions which captains among the silent majority have had. Some of whom are those captains which have simply quit. I do not presume to speak for or represent them, only to mention that they exist and to consider the input that we do not have from them, in any further discussion.
I also suggest that the economic model which has resulted in the current exchange rate may not be accurately accounting for lost revenue from player burn out, or captains quitting because of it. There is a perception that the business model is bent on milking new whales and disregarding long term players. I do not have the data necessary to offer that as any sort of certainty and I do not presume to know the intent that led to the current state of things.
I only speak for myself, yet I am confident to state that the majority of people who have participated in this topic are interested and invested in DB's continued success. Having participated in this discussion since 1.9, my view remains that the exchange rate ought to be far more equitable than it is now, with a win-win type of solution, such that pack sales are encouraged and captains are happier with the exchange rate.
Until there's significant community pressure on this issue, I doubt anything will change.
I think there has been plenty of community pressure, but it hasn't been focused in a way that would create the required significance. I have suggested that a focused, clear goal is important when advocating for change and progress on an issue, and that the ongoing honor rate and duplicate issue be included in what the current Do Better Boycott is asking for.
We are all downstream from each other and ourselves, therefore choose to be relaxed and groovy. Consider participating in civil discourse, understanding the Tardigrade, and wandering with the Subspace Eddies.
Another side note to this is if they stayed on top of making sure the newer characters hit the rotation a few months after their release the odds increase for someone you don't have to drop in a behold in turn decreasing the all immortalized beholds.
I just did a quick tally of all my legendaries; I have:
38 1/5* ,
14 2/5*
6 3/5* and
4 4/5*
If I airlock everything, that's 55k honour. Enough for a single 5* citation.
Its utter madness that airlocked legendaries are worth so little especially given the cost to acquire them in the first place!
Mine are destined to clog up my roster until they are worth more air-locked, or I get lucky and pull additional stars for them.
The latter may never happen, though given that the packs yield useless garbage most of the time, and I have reigned in on my spending, as I have most of the SR crew available in the portal FF anyway.
I’ve come to accept the amount of honor received for dismissing crew. I wouldn’t turn my nose at more, but it’s clear at this point that the values are not going to be adjusted.
What I would like to see is more ways to earn honor. One obvious way to do so would be to add honor to event reward tiers. Could be based on individual rank, squad rank, or a new fleet rank.
The honour received for airlocking crew is indeed pitiful. However, it wouldn't be quite so painful if DB could just ensure all immortal beholds didn't happen (or you're awarded with a citation if one does) and that the chances of getting duplicate crew were reduced. This game is one of patience and slowly building on crew and resources, and I like that, but it doesn't mean I'm happy to have the **** taken by appalling cost benefit ratios.
Ten Forward Loungers - Give Your Best, Get Our Best!
Personally I think there are several possibilities here 1, is adjusting airlock honor to something like 50, 150, 375, 800, 2000.
Furthermore I think older Legendaries should be added to voyage drops. As far as I know, Legendaries don't ever drop on voyages - pretty disappointing to be brutally honest if that is the case. This would encourage dilithium purchases for longer voyages etc.
[was on Sabbatical/Hiatus] Currently a trialist at Galaxy SquadronSTAY SAFE and KBO
I doubt they'll change it, but its the dismissal value that's the major brakes on my spending. I'm down to a monthly card now and all I use it on is to refresh voyages if I forget to recall or I'm having luck with dillemas and 4* drops. I don't buy premium pulls because I almost never get a super-rare I don't have Immortalized already and I don't buy the theme packs if I have 1 of the super rares FF(as much as I'd love the other 4 in the pack) because I ALWAYS get the one that FF. I caved on the Riker Pack (all I had FF was Augment Riker)... Who did I pull? You guessed it... Augment Riker. So he went out the airlock and I spent 650 DIL on 400 honor and a TON of useless ship schematics that I've had maxed for over a year. All it did was make me regret spending my money on the pack - It's my own fault because I knew it would happen, but it doesn't make me want to drop on non-event packs at all. At least with the event packs, I'm getting characters I can use(most of the time) - If I'm lucky, I pull the ranked 4*, 1 copy of the threshold and a copy or 2 of the legendary...
Sorry, I got off on a tangent there... The point is there are SO MANY cards I need to get and am more than happy to give DB my money, but if all I'll feel is that "I might as well just light my money on fire, at least then I have a bit of a show", I'm not spending it...
It's interesting. This has become salient to me for the first time because Guinan has just left the Gauntlet and I have a spare one (I was very lucky, no complaints here on that front). But my dilemma is now what to do with that spare Guinan. At the moment she is just sitting there as a 1/5 and I don't have any incentive to level her, as she adds nothing interesting as I have Cornwell, Mirror Troi and Bashir, Julian Bashir already. So I am faced with the very real prospect of airlocking her. But only getting 550 honor is definitely very irritating. I assume it's that pitiful so that I continue to use the roster space I paid for, holding on to her. Getting a Legendary is supposed to be the very pinnacle of the gaming experience in this game, it is seriously underwhelming when it's a dupe like this.
As you progress in the game this obviously becomes a more serious issue as we face the possibility of Legendary Beholds where we have all of the Legendaries already. I am not a whale, but I have managed to amass a few FF non-Mega Event Legendaries through judicious use of citations. The prospect of getting a Legendary behold with all immortalised crew would seriously dissuade me from buying Premium portal packs.
I know that these are all nice problems to have, but they are in the likely future of many players, particularly paying players, and DB should make a serious attempt to address this.
It's interesting. This has become salient to me for the first time because Guinan has just left the Gauntlet and I have a spare one (I was very lucky, no complaints here on that front). But my dilemma is now what to do with that spare Guinan. At the moment she is just sitting there as a 1/5 and I don't have any incentive to level her, as she adds nothing interesting as I have Cornwell, Mirror Troi and Bashir, Julian Bashir already. So I am faced with the very real prospect of airlocking her. But only getting 550 honor is definitely very irritating. I assume it's that pitiful so that I continue to use the roster space I paid for, holding on to her. Getting a Legendary is supposed to be the very pinnacle of the gaming experience in this game, it is seriously underwhelming when it's a dupe like this.
As you progress in the game this obviously becomes a more serious issue as we face the possibility of Legendary Beholds where we have all of the Legendaries already. I am not a whale, but I have managed to amass a few FF non-Mega Event Legendaries through judicious use of citations. The prospect of getting a Legendary behold with all immortalised crew would seriously dissuade me from buying Premium portal packs.
I know that these are all nice problems to have, but they are in the likely future of many players, particularly paying players, and DB should make a serious attempt to address this.
Yep same position here, She is just using a slot that would otherwise be used. Trying to complete the collections is nigh on impossible without a FAIR exchange rate.
Still, until other people start voting with their wallets this is going to continue.
Still, until other people start voting with their wallets this is going to continue.
You are 100% right and this is why asking Erin and Shan and DB isn't going to change a single thing.
The irony is they don't even realize the opportunity that they are missing. Sure the people that spend are gonna keep spending, but it is all the people that don't spend because the return is so bad that they are missing. They should run a promotion where the packs come with extra honor and see how much more people buy.
You are 100% right and this is why asking Erin and Shan and DB isn't going to change a single thing.
If more people complain/respond/abstain from purchases it keeps the issue in the forefront. I don't expect DB to change its practices without a concerted effort from the player base.
My worry is that DB has dug in their heels and decided honor rates aren't an issue.
They won't look at declining sales and think to themselves "we need to make this a better value for our customers". Or in many cases "We need to stop selling things that have such a high chance of pissing our customers off because aren't getting anything of value AT ALL".
Instead, they will think "we're not making enough money on this game and should shut it down so we can focus on something more profitable".
And it's a shame that's how the mobile gaming market works. I really do want this game to succeed, despite all of the lunacy that comes from the people making the marketing decisions.
Now with the fact that in order to complete collections, we need more honor. Is it not time to look at this again!
There is a thread on honor debt which speaks to and substantiates your point here about honor exchange rates and collections. How much Honor do you owe ?. I think that's an useful framework to use for advocating for a change in honor rates. What I think might be a useful next step on that front is to get an estimate of honor accumulation rates from across the spending spectrum and then use that to figure out what timescales people are likely to have enough honor to immortalize their crew through the citations mechanism.
My worry is that DB has dug in their heels and decided honor rates aren't an issue.
They won't look at declining sales and think to themselves "we need to make this a better value for our customers". Or in many cases "We need to stop selling things that have such a high chance of pissing our customers off because aren't getting anything of value AT ALL".
Instead, they will think "we're not making enough money on this game and should shut it down so we can focus on something more profitable".
And it's a shame that's how the mobile gaming market works. I really do want this game to succeed, despite all of the lunacy that comes from the people making the marketing decisions.
I probably could have framed the question better, and it is, of course, a relatively small sample size though I think it's still informative. There are links there, and in my post above, to a plethora of other threads on the matter as well.
If more people complain/respond/abstain from purchases it keeps the issue in the forefront. I don't expect DB to change its practices without a concerted effort from the player base.
We are all downstream from each other and ourselves, therefore choose to be relaxed and groovy. Consider participating in civil discourse, understanding the Tardigrade, and wandering with the Subspace Eddies.
So with the whole Picard debacle maybe its time to re-open this debate @Shan@Erin
If the Picard could have be exchanged for 10% towards a different Gold maybe there wouldn't have been so much ill feeling by DBs paying customers! I understand that you want the honour to be gradually occurring but how many times do people airlock Legendaries, unless they already have them FF.
550 honor doesn't get you much and pales into insignificance when voyages, the daily rewards and fleet rewards are taken into account.
Comments
Jim it's for that reason a lot of people stockpile honor I'm at 436k and climbing I don't play the gauntlet so meh to whoever the new "special" card is.
Citations are good but certainly not worth the exchange of gold dismissals for gold citations. The honor hall reminds me of those cash for gold places where you bring in expensive items and get paid 5c on the dollar.
1: Increase honor rewards for 5* dismissals.
Somewhere between a 5:1 and 10:1 for dismissals-to-citation seems like a much more appropriate ratio to me. If DB continues with the paradigm of "reward everyone a 5*" for major problems, this change would take a lot of the sting out of getting you you already have fused.
2: Mitigate the impact or possibility of an all-immortal behold.
Basically, give spenders a reason to spend. One of the worst rollercoasters in this game is getting a behold...only to realize you don't actually have a use for any of the characters rewarded. Personally, I think randomly getting an all-immortalized pull should be rewarded with a greater reward, since you've put all the effort into immortalizing those crew already and grant a Citation of the appropriate rarity.
This change would encourage players to fully immortalize as many characters as they can, where the current systems presents a significant loss if you have a fully-immortalized pull.
Anyone consider requesting a lowering of requirements?
I think it is assumed that you only move one side of the equation for it to be beneficial. They could just as easily with your proposal lower the requirement and lower the dismissal points per.
In addition it has been done as well as a suggestion. However, I think the consensus was the best way to preserve some form of harder ratio for 5* acquisition vs 4 vs 3 vs 2, as well as the value of dismissal ratio as well was going the way of the current proposal.
I really don't care either way, it would be nicer for some change in the calculous for a duplicate to be worth the risk on some pack purchases. I completely abstain from non-event packs that are themed that I have more than one of the 4s FFed. I miss out on a lot of characters I want that way but with a lot less disappointment on the value I got for my money.
They made a post at one point that they would be a lot more amenable to change the quantity of honor awarded than adjusting the price in the honor hall.
(Not saying I buy the rationale, just that I remember a post to that affect)
Instead I'll find somebody that will provide me with something of higher value, and somebody that understands customer service.
Honestly, I'm not in favor of the exchange rate now, but it is better then when we just got trainers. That was total BS. (And if you still want trainers you can get em with honor and cheaper than the trainer turn in for the original dismissal value)
I recall the same post too, Rex. I'm just wondering what is missing in the community's arguments that isn't budging DB?
"We huffed and we puffed... Why didn't the damned house come falling down?!?!"
I will concur, a pittance of honor is theoretically better than a pittance of trainers.
Unfortunately, we're still stuck with a pittance that is more of an insult than incentive.
They haven't done anything because there has been a lack of community response to it. If recent history shows us anything, they respond (quickly) to significant community pressure.
Until there's significant community pressure on this issue, I doubt anything will change.
Create a ticket every time you see a fully fused behold and ask for compensation. The worst thing that happens is they decline to compensate you, but at least that frustration is reflected in their metrics.
As was mentioned above, we need to make more of a protest to be noticed. Wish I had seen this earlier this morning, had two beholds that were full of immortalized crew. From now on I will send a ticket every time just to give extra voice to our issue with the beholds.
This is a poll from 1.9/2.0 Ratio of dismissed crew to equivalent rarity honorable citation which was done on the old forums, before voyages and fleet targets.
Given that there was some consensus around a 10:1 (2345) or better ratio, this is one way the math could work:
Some source material:
For those interested, there is a wealth of discussion that has been had on the topic on the old forums:
And elsewhere on the new forums where the honor exchange rate and duplicates problem has been recently discussed:
I think that there is considerable evidence that the current honor exchange rates have not effectively met the goal of reducing the player frustration with duplicates. Given that we cannot trade these cards, any analogy to TCG packs is flawed.
I suggest that in addition to the many threads listed above, that there are more discussions that these don't accurately account for. Namely, those discussions which captains among the silent majority have had. Some of whom are those captains which have simply quit. I do not presume to speak for or represent them, only to mention that they exist and to consider the input that we do not have from them, in any further discussion.
I also suggest that the economic model which has resulted in the current exchange rate may not be accurately accounting for lost revenue from player burn out, or captains quitting because of it. There is a perception that the business model is bent on milking new whales and disregarding long term players. I do not have the data necessary to offer that as any sort of certainty and I do not presume to know the intent that led to the current state of things.
I only speak for myself, yet I am confident to state that the majority of people who have participated in this topic are interested and invested in DB's continued success. Having participated in this discussion since 1.9, my view remains that the exchange rate ought to be far more equitable than it is now, with a win-win type of solution, such that pack sales are encouraged and captains are happier with the exchange rate.
I think there has been plenty of community pressure, but it hasn't been focused in a way that would create the required significance. I have suggested that a focused, clear goal is important when advocating for change and progress on an issue, and that the ongoing honor rate and duplicate issue be included in what the current Do Better Boycott is asking for.
Consider participating in civil discourse, understanding the Tardigrade, and wandering with the Subspace Eddies.
I am VIP14+ and I haven’t renewed my monthly VIP for a week. Don’t plan or feel like opening my wallet until drop rate and gauntlet are fixed!
https://forum.disruptorbeam.com/stt/discussion/2662/new-year-resolution-make-players-happier
38 1/5* ,
14 2/5*
6 3/5* and
4 4/5*
If I airlock everything, that's 55k honour. Enough for a single 5* citation.
Its utter madness that airlocked legendaries are worth so little especially given the cost to acquire them in the first place!
Mine are destined to clog up my roster until they are worth more air-locked, or I get lucky and pull additional stars for them.
The latter may never happen, though given that the packs yield useless garbage most of the time, and I have reigned in on my spending, as I have most of the SR crew available in the portal FF anyway.
Jim
Going to be nigh on impossible to hit the top thresholds for me.
Jim
What I would like to see is more ways to earn honor. One obvious way to do so would be to add honor to event reward tiers. Could be based on individual rank, squad rank, or a new fleet rank.
Join the eXo|plosion today!
Or else?
Furthermore I think older Legendaries should be added to voyage drops. As far as I know, Legendaries don't ever drop on voyages - pretty disappointing to be brutally honest if that is the case. This would encourage dilithium purchases for longer voyages etc.
Sorry, I got off on a tangent there... The point is there are SO MANY cards I need to get and am more than happy to give DB my money, but if all I'll feel is that "I might as well just light my money on fire, at least then I have a bit of a show", I'm not spending it...
27×1★; 45×2★; 72×3★; 121×4★; 14×5★
FE, not fused crew count:
0×2★; 0×3★; 18×4★; 21×5★
As you progress in the game this obviously becomes a more serious issue as we face the possibility of Legendary Beholds where we have all of the Legendaries already. I am not a whale, but I have managed to amass a few FF non-Mega Event Legendaries through judicious use of citations. The prospect of getting a Legendary behold with all immortalised crew would seriously dissuade me from buying Premium portal packs.
I know that these are all nice problems to have, but they are in the likely future of many players, particularly paying players, and DB should make a serious attempt to address this.
Still, until other people start voting with their wallets this is going to continue.
Jim
You are 100% right and this is why asking Erin and Shan and DB isn't going to change a single thing.
The irony is they don't even realize the opportunity that they are missing. Sure the people that spend are gonna keep spending, but it is all the people that don't spend because the return is so bad that they are missing. They should run a promotion where the packs come with extra honor and see how much more people buy.
If more people complain/respond/abstain from purchases it keeps the issue in the forefront. I don't expect DB to change its practices without a concerted effort from the player base.
They won't look at declining sales and think to themselves "we need to make this a better value for our customers". Or in many cases "We need to stop selling things that have such a high chance of pissing our customers off because aren't getting anything of value AT ALL".
Instead, they will think "we're not making enough money on this game and should shut it down so we can focus on something more profitable".
And it's a shame that's how the mobile gaming market works. I really do want this game to succeed, despite all of the lunacy that comes from the people making the marketing decisions.
There is a thread on honor debt which speaks to and substantiates your point here about honor exchange rates and collections. How much Honor do you owe ?. I think that's an useful framework to use for advocating for a change in honor rates. What I think might be a useful next step on that front is to get an estimate of honor accumulation rates from across the spending spectrum and then use that to figure out what timescales people are likely to have enough honor to immortalize their crew through the citations mechanism.
I created a thread to attempt to illustrate a similar point, Lost Revenue: Does the current honor exchange rate discourage your spending on packs?, this is the poll:
I probably could have framed the question better, and it is, of course, a relatively small sample size though I think it's still informative. There are links there, and in my post above, to a plethora of other threads on the matter as well.
Exactly.
Consider participating in civil discourse, understanding the Tardigrade, and wandering with the Subspace Eddies.
+1