"Star Trek: Picard" Season 1 Episode Discussion Thread (Expect Spoilers)
Travis S McClain
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I wasn't expecting it to go live until some time this evening, but CBS All Access apparently put up the first episode some time yesterday. I just happened to see on Twitter that it was already streaming. Figured I'd start a discussion thread for the season itself now that it's underway. Here are the ground rules:
1 Use spoiler tags elsewhere on the forum, but this thread is for active viewers to discuss episodes as they've been seen. Any aired content is fair game for discussion.
2 Leave CBS All Access paywall and/or Discovery hate out of it. You don't like having to subscribe to see Picard or hate what other Trek they're making, that's fine, but take those complaints elsewhere.
1 Use spoiler tags elsewhere on the forum, but this thread is for active viewers to discuss episodes as they've been seen. Any aired content is fair game for discussion.
2 Leave CBS All Access paywall and/or Discovery hate out of it. You don't like having to subscribe to see Picard or hate what other Trek they're making, that's fine, but take those complaints elsewhere.
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Comments
Gotta say, I was surprised by the explanation for Dahj. I was anticipating a Rey character whose identity would be a convoluted mystery, but it's all laid out pretty cleanly in the first episode. I find that a relief. There are lots of questions to be answered, but they're "how" questions, not "who/what" questions. Tying Dahj to Data by way of Commander Bruce Maddox works, especially given that in "Data's Day", it was established that Data did actively continue collaborating with him about creating positronic life.
Maddox seems teased as a MacGuffin, having "disappeared" after the attack on Mars. I don't see any indication that Brian Brophy has done any work for the series, so either he's not gonna turn up this season or at least, won't turn up being played by Brophy if he does.
I loved Picard's interview, though the "FNN" news layout seemed lazy and uninspired. It was pure exposition, but it was also one of those kinds of scenes that Patrick Stewart does wonderfully. By time he snapped about how Starfleet wasn't Starfleet anymore, and that it had slunk from its duty, I was beaming. This is the Jean-Luc Picard I remember!
Cons: The stupid news interview was silly. The character walking by a TV like an 80s movie to see Picard on the news was silly. The huge archive looked pulled from Star Wars Episode 2. I'm a little sad that they retconned the "Data (as B4) becoming the eventual captain of the Enterprise-E" plot from the Countdown comics. Also still iffy on the entire premise of "synths" and the secret daughter stuff.
I'm mixed on the interview. Its primary function was obviously just to deliver the back story via exposition, which I find a bit lazy as a writing choice. That said, it was the first time I truly felt that this was the Jean-Luc Picard I know. Patrick Stewart crushes scenes like that.
Doubling as a mechanism for bringing Picard to Dahj's attention felt a bit lazy and contrived. I'm willing to overlook it on the basis that it got things out of the way quickly, since they killed Dahj off by the end of the episode anyway. Though using her to bring Picard into the mystery and then killing her off also felt lazy.
For the time being, I'll give it a pass, but I hope the subsequent episodes aren't as hasty.
But I don't like some things, like the whole synthetics thing or the almost destruction of Mars (why it's necessary to destroy a planet?), or the interview. Yeah, it served as an introduction to the history and the background, but I think in the end the whole interview thing was bad resolved. Before the interview we see that it would be a "light" interview, that they don't ask Picard about delicate questions (like his distancing of the Starfleet), but almost right away we see that the interviewer go harsh. I guess that the intention were to create a character that shakes Picard and remove from his "lethargy".
Some of the best external location work I've seen. Starfleet HQ in Sausalito/Marin Headlands was gorgeous. Really liked Paris too.
The Starfleet archive was perhaps a bit derivative of Star Wars, but I feel like it was better done in Picard regardless.
Characters: 💯
It's clear that Stewart was very protective of this venture and all the characterizations seem legit.
Plotting: TBD
I'll wait for the first season to finish before passing judgement. There might be some "lazy storytelling", but sometimes that allows for superior pacing and world building in service to a larger narrative. And, in truth, most tv/film makes use of tropes.
As much as i like the character, I actually prefer that Data stays dead. Downloading himself into B-4 and preserving/reviving him that way always struck me as too convenient.
I am cautiously optimistic about the synth angle on this too. In the run up, I thought Dahj might turn out to be a freed Borg or something like that, so it subverted my expectations (in a good way). While this is about what are ostensibly androids, the precedent we've seen with say Moriarty or the re-purposed EMH Mk. 1's suggests there's room for engineered creations to become discontent. Maybe there's even an outside chance that Lore got resurrected somehow? That seems unlikely considering it's believed his components would have been likely wiped as a result of the destruction of the Ent-D, but that's all conjecture.
Since I'll be paying for CBS All Access next month, I expect I'll rewatch the hell out of this. Once the initial glow subsides, I'll probably have a lot more nits to pick.
I'm with you, @12345678 of 123456789. I do, however, accept Data appearing in Picard's dreams as a workaround. And I prefer that B-4 be stuffed in a box. Seems awfully poorly guarded to be so important, though. I mean, the dude's just lying there in a box in the middle of the room when you first walk in, surrounded by glass windows galore. I'd have thought some kind of underground vault with some Mission: Impossible style safeguards. Instead, they're treating him with about as much concern as an iPad in the Apple store stashed under the counter.
Soji says she has a twin. Does this mean that she and Dahj were raised as identical twins? Or were they "separated at birth" (and given to different families with one having no knowledge of the other) and Soji is speaking about someone else? I guess I assume it's the former, but then it's odd that Dahj didn't mention her identical twin when Picard was telling her she was basically an android.
Could you please continue the petty bickering? I find it most intriguing.
~ Data, ST:TNG "Haven"
I thought it was explicitly clear that Soji meant she knew her twin was Dahj, and that their matching necklaces established that they'd been raised together and had a relationship. Dr. Jurati established that Commander Maddox was their father (who gave them their matching necklaces), and the woman Dahj called was their mother. I definitely have some questions for Mrs. Maddox and how she knew Dahj would have been programmed to seek Picard. That suggests to me that Data had a direct, active hand in designing the girls; there's no obvious reason Maddox would have thought to imprint that.
The real reason Dahj didn't mention Soji to Picard was to make the reveal more dramatic by coming after Dahj's death, but I'm willing to spot them an in-story explanation. In the conversation with Picard, Dahj went into an immediate and understandably strong state of denial. She wasn't synthetic, and that meant neither was her sister. They were just garden variety human twins, which she'd taken for truth her whole life (however long that actually was). Even if she'd had the presence of mind to think it suspicious, she wouldn't have admitted it in that moment.
The knife thrown into Dahj's boyfriend's chest had an awfully Romulan/Reman look to it, too. That was what established them as Romulans to me. It seemed even more likely once the story shifted to Picard's vineyard and the interviewer emphasized the antagonistic history between the Federation and the Romulans.
As for other bits of fan service, I felt like overall those bits were used fairly well. Picard's storage unit was probably the most obvious piece, but they didn't dwell on those artifacts after some quick establishing shots. I'd love to know who took the photo of Picard and Worf in the Great Hall, though. Is there an official Klingon photographer we never noticed? I found the inclusion of that specific photo conspicuous.
My theory is it was included to directly address questions of whether they would retcon Klingons in this series to match the Disco aesthetics. Why else select Worf to be the only character whose picture we see in this first episode? Worf still looked like Worf, so presumably if he should turn up sometime, he ought to look like the Worf we've known all these years. I expect a mixture of old school and Disco Klingons if they should show up, though, if only to demonstrate the argument they've maintained that the Empire was not homogeneous. As long as Worf still looks like Worf, I'm fine with that, and I feel after seeing that photo that I can trust he would.
I watched the first episode last night on Amazon Prime Spain ... I enjoyed it overall, though it was kinda difficult to follow everything as someone who's never really watched The Next Generation, or other Star Trek shows, other than Discovery. e.g. What's up with the Borg Cube and Romulans? I figure that by coming here and reading these kinds of threads and by pacing myself through the show I'll get more into it.
Discovery was always really easy to follow, even when it concerned things like Section 31 etc., the plot/writing etc. seemed more inwards looking even though it included lots of links to other series.
- I liked that the boyfriend was from the same species as Po ... who I recently levelled etc. ... not sure if they were in TNG, but that's something I found kinda cool because my knowledge of ST could relate to it and I liked the short with Po.
- I never really like the type of character who is all-powerful etc., so I'm glad that's over with, maybe the twin is not so all-powerful, which would make her character a lot more interesting.
Anyway, don't have much to add to the conversation, but will post questions etc. if and when they come up.
1) I really hate that stinkin' JJ Abrams invented that stupid idiotic dumb idea of some supernova that completely flies in the face of physics, and now suddenly everything has to revolve around that. His entire shtick is "who cares if it makes sense, as long as it looks cool."
2) So wait, Starfleet had to BUILD a rescue armada? Ummmm... how much time did they have? Wouldn't the right answer here be to call out a Federation-wide emergency and request the aid of all military/civilian ships to come evacuate people? It's only a few worlds, dude, and it's not like the Romulans didn't have their own massive fleets of starships. As I said, the entire premise of this makes no sense because Abrams is a piece of sh...
3) Mars has been burning for 13 years? Umm, you're the Federation. Can't you put that fire out? Galaxy spanning powerhouse my a...
None of us know what's up with the Borg Cube and Romulans, either. There must have been another Borg incursion into the Alpha Quadrant that we don't know about, because the Cubes that have come our way were all blown up.
No, the Xahean were invented for Disco. I liked seeing them represented in Picard, too. It's a big enough universe that it doesn't bother me if people from one series don't appear in another, but I like when they do. Similarly, I got a kick out of Andorians and Tellarites showing up in Disco.
Being twin synthetics, I expect Soji to have the same programming and abilities as Dahj. We never saw Data as a martial arts combatant, but it's entirely within the realm of possibility he could have been one given his other extraordinary abilities. I kinda miss the modesty of an android who showed off most by typing really fast instead of being Batman, but I'll also admit I always kinda felt a little cheated that all Data ever really did was type really fast.
My concern about Dahj wasn't how powerful she would be so much as whether this was gonna be yet another Chosen One with a mysterious identity that would be drawn out all season (or longer). I've grown bored with that trope. I'm relieved that they closed that door already so we can get on with things. Soji and Dahj were built by Commander Maddox, very likely in collaboration with Data.
To be fair, Abrams's shtick also includes "who cares it if it's unoriginal, I liked it when someone else did it earlier". I've been frequently frustrated with Abrams's lack of originality ever since M:i:III, which stole so many key sequences from other spy/action flicks that it isn't even a movie. It's a greatest hits compilation.
Maybe that constructed armada is related to that aforementioned Borg Cube we don't know about yet? But yeah, there were bound to have been better means of getting the Romulans off the planet. I'm sure the Ferengi would have chartered some ferries, and with Rom as Grand Nagus, probably even if there wasn't much profit in it.
It's not like they've already established that the Federation can control the weather of an entire plan-- Oh. Right. Whomp.
Most of my nitpicks are from a technical standpoint, where the formerly logical and rational nature of Star Trek has been twisted by the JJ Abrams movies and more recently, Discovery, into something that's more spectacle than simulation.
Wonder why you said this at first then.
"GhostStalker wrote:
Poor guy just looks ancient. He doesn't look like he should be anywhere except on a balcony enjoying the sunset."
Strange way to show "love" by respectless calling him poor guy etc.
I stand by that. He definitely looks ancient. And in fact, in this show, his best scenes are literally him sitting staring intently, sometimes while on a balcony. The trailer showed him sword fighting and the like, and I still have a problem with that. We'll see how it plays onscreen.
Separate Edit as not to double post:
Check this out! I didn't even notice this until ECHenry pointed it out. Lazy!
I don't find this the "gotcha" moment some fans do. The Federation used the Excelsior, Miranda, and Oberth class ships for how many years? They were active in the Dominion War! How long did the Klingons use the same Bird-of-Preys? (You can say there's a B'rel class and a K'Vort class, but it's the same model.) For that matter, how long did the Klingons wear the same clothes? Hell, they literally wore the costumes worn by Christopher Lloyd, John Larroquette, and the other Klingons in The Search for Spock.
My friend, I understand your argument, but you need to understand that this is NOT that. This is something completely different. This is a case of the studio using the 3D models for the other show they’re currently making instead of using the existing 3D models of shuttles from Voyager, DS9, or any of the TNG movies.
It’s not a case of the Federation using old shuttles at all. It’s “Hey we designed some 3D models for Discovery, can’t we just use those? “Umm well Discovery is set in 2258 and Picard is set in 2398, plus there are already a ton of shuttles from that time period that look completely different.” “Who cares, just use the models, they look cool and we don’t give a sh..” “Well I guess the fans who notice will bend over backwards to make excuses like how Starfleet uses ships for a long time or something.”
If it bugs you, it bugs you, and I'm not trying to attack that. I just don't see any "there" there, or at least not any "there" that wasn't already there in Star Trek. The Search for Spock and TNG were 78 story years apart, but only three production years apart. The Excelsior model turned up in "Encounter at Farpoint" and Kruge's Klingons' uniforms were worn in "Heart of Glory". I've never heard anyone attack fans for "bending over backwards to make excuses" for accepting those things. Nor did anyone accuse Roddenberry and his TNG production team of spitting in the face of the passage of time or cynically exploiting fan loyalty. Paramount said, "We just paid for toys and clothes, use the ones you have" and that's what CBS did here. CBS also paid for that new digital rendering of the Enterprise-D that opened the Picard pilot, and the (partial) Ten Forward set, both of which looked fantastic. They had to come up with the Stargazer model and the Captain Picard Day banner, too. Ideally, sure, bean counters would approve brand new things for every episode/movie, but it just doesn't work that way.
Yeah, the Discovery/Picard shuttles are digital. Digital models still cost time and money to design and construct, though. Yes, there were shuttle models built during the Berman era, but recall they auctioned off every model, costume, and prop awhile back. Those things aren't lying around anymore, waiting to be filmed again. (I felt that auction was shortsighted, but of course, no one asked me.)
Speaking of the auction, though... What the hell is this?
https://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?from=salesummary&intObjectID=4780016
Here's the thing - this isn't about reusing old models. Hell, I wish they HAD reused the shuttle models from Insurrection or Nemesis. Both CGI, by the way. But no, let's first specify the difference between digital models and actual studio miniature models. Of course I give a pass to them for using the Excelsior model in the 80s, it was a much different world back then. We also had much lower expectations because it was amazing just to see them onscreen. Things are too easy now, the world is a different place. Plus yes, on a side note, from an in-universe standpoint, it’s plausible that the latest and greatest ship from the 2270s/80s has continued to be updated and used 90 years later. But none of that is my point.
My point is that this decision is basically, we need a shuttle, oh here's our current 3D model from Discovery, screw it lets use it who cares. It's that simple. Funny enough, it's very similar to the recent decision to use the Imperial I Star Destroyer model in Star Wars 9 to represent this supposedly 1.5x larger new ship called the Xyston class. It's just sort of a "screw them, who cares" mentality.
I'm totally agree with you in everything you said. Chapeau.
Merci Beaucoup!
I agree that the legacy of the JJverse is unfortunate. The supernova was a shlocky idea at the time and only looks worse in hindsight. That said, there have been plenty of bad ideas in Trek, and sometimes they're successfully rehabilitated. While the way Romulus perished was kinda dumb, there's potential for good storytelling around this event.
Trek rarely excises on screen canon, it's part and parcel of the package. Can't blame the new show for following what's there.
Aside from the Dominion War, we've never seen a particularly large build up of starships in the core of the Federation at any given time. In fact it seems a regular Trek trope that there aren't enough starships in a given area at any given time.
If anything, perhaps this story point is an indication that Starfleet replication tech may have improved and it's quicker and easier to churn out starships than ever. That still doesn't have to mean that starships are ubiquitously filling up every inch of Federation space.
So maybe this is a Praxis level event? Why can't there be black swan events in the future?
Also, I'm not sure if you're being hyperbolic by using "galaxy spanning". Sector spanning, maybe? Parts of two quadrants spanning? 🤷 Powerhouse perhaps, but Chernobyl, Fukushima, New Orleans show that powerhouses have limitations. Sometimes maybe it even shows those powerhouses not to be so powerful after all. Besides, limitations are typically at the heart of all good fiction.
With respect, I think Travis's point was that the labor costs of designing a new starship still exists whether it's CGi or a model. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the same effects house is doing Disco and Picard as was doing the TNG movies. Even if they were, those CGI models are two plus decades old.
I think you overstate the ease of designing CGI models and their archivability across decades and different FX houses. When you're talking about Herr Mouse and a franchise as large as Star Wars, I agree with your point. Trek meanwhile has never had that budget or standard, and I don't expect them to have it now.
When Trek did try to compete with Stars Wars shiny things, we got JJ Trek, which you appear to have an overall negative opinion of (and I have no problem with that). Still, you seem to want something that compares with Star Wars, and yet when Trek tried that, you didn't like it as I understand it. This leaves me genuinely confused about your expectations at this point.
Respectfully, I disagree and think this is already the best Trek since DS9 went off the air. Bold statement one episode in, but unless Picard goes GoT final season, I'm comfortable saying it.
Each iteration of Star Trek needs to evolve, and that largely stopped with the TNG movies, VOY, and ENT. Disco has been different, but with mixed results. I am cautiously optimistic about the direction the Picard show runners are taking at this point.
I appreciate that you have a different take on Picard. None of my response is intended as a personal attack. You have every right to the opinions you've expressed. We're discussing a work of fiction after all. 🖖
but that cube is a wreck ship... somehow ended up to be used as a space station/mini planet for romulans... i guess