Thanks, by the way, to everyone who's participated in this thread throughout the season. I was worried when I created it how it might go awry, but instead this the first time in a long while that I've felt the kind of community that I used to associate with Star Trek, and I appreciate y'all for fostering it. We've had differing interpretations of, and reactions to, a lot of things throughout the season. We've shared those different interpretations and reactions thoughtfully, maturely, respectfully, and cordially. I reconsidered some of my initial thoughts and feelings because of what someone said here. I loved having conversations with several of my friends throughout, and I've enjoyed this thread just as much.
I'll add in the immortality != living trope as a down, it's intellectually lazy and unimaginative. Giving Data a send off was nice, and important given the utter car crash that was NEM, but I think they could have done it differently.
Allow me to wax philosophical a moment, in that we are all prisoners of something. No matter what chains we break, physical or metaphysical, the nature of being is that we are still contained in some manner, sometimes within our control, sometimes not.
If we woke tomorrow, immortal, we'd still be physically contained by our body structure.
If we woke the day after that, and we were also now changelings, free to adopt the shape and intent of any physical object, we'd still be constrained by physics.
If the day after that we woke, and we now were Q, we would still be contained by the finities of the universe we live in.
Life isn't about duration of existence, it's about what we can achieve within the boundaries of that existence.
I agree with one of WhatCulture's five "downs", partially agree with two, and agree with one:
The Borg
It sounds like the writer(s) here were jacked up anticipating some kind of First Contact style thing with them. Finding the humanity even in the Borg feels like one of the truest Star Trek story ideas in the CBS era. I found the xB's more interesting than yet another escalation of their dominance. I've been active for the last several years as a depression support group facilitator, so the stuff with them resonated with those experiences of mine.
Starfleet
They wrote: "First they try and work with them, then we discover they've been infiltrated by Romulans, then the gang attempt to work around them but, in the end, fall back on them entirely to save the day." I don't see that as a lack of direction, though; I see it as exactly what I read the arc of the season to be: the resetting of Starfleet's moral compass.
Not Following Through
Most of the examples are a matter of reading a lot of details as Chekhovian guns. How literal-minded did someone have to be to think Narissa had to physically meet Soji in order for Narek to be directly between them? Still, I have my own list of ideas not followed through that irk me so I'm in partial agreement.
No Big Twist
Another partial agreement. I'm grateful none of those speculated things ended up being the story; some were fun to kick around throughout the season, but most would have denied this show having its own outcome. That said, the finale as presented was simultaneously hasty and languid.
Disposable Stakes
I'd have titled this "Disposable Antagonists/Villains" instead, but I'm in complete agreement about the fates of Oh, Narissa, and Sutra all being disappointing misfires.
Okay, so I finally got around to getting the All-Access free trial and blew through the entire series between Tuesday and Wednesday (and then finally got caught up on the Short Treks on Thursday...should have done those first, oops). I have to say, I very much liked the first season.
Yes, there are places where shortcuts and laziness ruled the day. Letting Jurati off the hook entirely was the one that bothered me the most, but magicking up an entire fleet that could go toe to toe with 200+ Warbirds (even with an assumption that the Warbirds might be technologically inferior because of the state of Romulan society, that a smaller number of far more advanced Federation ships would be their equal) is up there as well. Even so, I think the darker depiction of Starfleet and the Federation wasn’t just a positive, it was entirely necessary to both the story and as a meta-commentary on society as a whole.
Science fiction is a phenomenally powerful tool for examining our lives, our beliefs, and our institutions in an objective manner. Star Trek never shied away from doing so, and I find it to be on full display here as well. Expecting the Federation and Starfleet to always be unchanging paragons of virtue, for decades or centuries on end, is one of the biggest ideological fallacies in Roddenberry’s idea for the future - the reality is that institutions change over time, that said change isn’t always for the better, and that fear and hatred are always able to inform decisions just as much as rationality and compassion.
Up until now, all of the evils of the Federation are the result of rogue admirals or outside influences. Dougherty’s complicity in relocating the Ba’ku, Leyton’s reign of terror, everything from Conspiracy...all set up as completely counter to the operating principles of the Federation. This time, it’s the Federation itself that is failing, even if the events were precipitated by the Romulans, and I think is a great setup for what will happen in subsequent seasons.
This is an important reminder for us today, as governments in real life are all too happy to set concern for people aside and use fear to divide and confuse us in order to advance less noble agendas.
Getting back on track, I also very much liked seeing Picard’s journey from broken, betrayed retiree to reclaiming the things that made him a great leader. One of my gripes about TNG was that, aside from the post-assimilation recovery and the Kataan probe incident, Picard’s evolution as a person seemed rather stagnant. Data was the one constantly growing, while Picard was already a great leader, ambassador, and ship’s captain. Seeing someone like him fall victim to his own ego (expecting that even a highly decorated admiral wouldn’t be considered expendable by his superiors) and having those closest to him finally have the opportunity/urge to call him on it was as fantastic as seeing Picard pull himself back together. It gives so much more depth to the character and, I think, cements Picard’s Status as the “best” of the captains featured in the various series (Kirk is still my personal favorite, however).
Seeing Raffi go through something similar, albeit in a far more self-destructive way, was likewise interesting. And finally getting a proper goodbye to Data (this, coming from someone who actually managed to enjoy Nemesis) was indeed a tear-inducing moment. Picard was in many ways very closed off emotionally from his crew, and to see him finally share that moment with Data...well, let’s just say that Smoking Jacket Data is near the top of my most-wanted characters list even if he ends up being a Bones-style single-skill DIP monster with no voyage or gauntlet utility.
My completely made-up award for best actor in the show goes to Santiago Cabrera. All due respect to Sir Patrick, the various emergency holograms were so well done in their differences of speech and behaviors (especially the interview session with Raffi, as someone mentioned) really blew me away. I hope we get at least a couple of the holograms as future crew as well, never mind Captain Rios himself.
I am thrilled that we finally got to see more Romulans. I’ve said it many times that, for the species that is supposed to be one of the three most powerful in our section of the galaxy, they got severely shortchanged throughout previous series. Their limited nature is perfectly understandable in TOS/VOY/Disco, we did get some more time with Romulans in both TNG and DS9, and I am sure we could have gotten more if Enterprise had lasted longer, but PIC gives us more than all the rest combined. I still want a short-fun series focusing on the Earth-Romulan war of 2156-2160, though...that has a boatload of potential.
Elnor is a bit of a bummer character for me...I’d like to see him featured a bit more in season 2. Other than a few moments of awesomeness, it’s a lot of “stay on the ship, Elnor” or hiding in an office waiting for Seven to arrive. I think his character in-game is perfectly suited to the skills he was given, though honestly he could have only SEC (again, Bones-style) and be just as useful/desirable. Every one of the other main characters (and Seven) had a purpose, even if it wasn’t a nice one, while Elnor was largely along for the ride.
Speaking of Seven, I can’t wait to see Queen Seven (or whatever she’ll be called) in the game. As complex of a moment as that was, given her history with the Borg and hesitation at dominating the xBs on board, it was completely B.A. to assume control of the Cube like that.
I’m sure I have more thoughts but I am also sure I’ll reach the character limit soon...suffice to say, I found it easy to look past the negatives so far, they struck a nice balance between fan service and maintaining the show’s separate identity, and I can’t wait to see where they go from here.
So, as someone who has not watched much ST at all, how interesting is ST: Picard when it is amongst the multitude of shows available through plenty of streaming services?
I have to say that the initial reaction after episode one was positive, but as I was watching episode 2 my interest in what was happening kinda ground to a near standstill and this continued for various episodes.
- I didn't have the satisfaction of "recognition" that ST fans might have (seeing Seven just reminded me about how I missed watching Bosch).
- Apart from 1 or 2 highlights, the characters being presented were on the bland side (e.g. Raffi ... ugh), or what felt like an opportunity for character development was just being left to the side.
- The story just seemed to meander ... "we gotta get a crack team together - let's see how they don't want to but ultimately join the team".
- The whole Soji thing ... I basically felt like I was watching a chunk of Game of Thrones all over again!
But then came the turning episode ... there were little glimmers of hope of good stuff to come in episode 5 (which felt totally out of place with most of what came before it and what came after - but to me, it was out of place in a good way) ... but episode 8 was just plain awesome.
The Raffi character finally came out well. All that sulking and moping in the previous episodes was finally done with and I could finally see why the main character of the show (Picard) admires her.
Rios showed why he is by far the best thing on the show (for me).
Jurati came back reasonably well ... when I first saw her I felt the character had promise but she just got washed over in all the meandering the show did.
The whole storyline in the episode just clicked together really well (would have to rewatch to pinpoint) ... and it left me with ... "hey, let's watch the last two episodes", instead of "man, how many episodes are left in this season?".
It also became painfully clear that Oh and her sidekick (Narissa) are nowhere near the quality of Georgiou from Discovery ... now that is a great antagonist ... and to me, that made the whole Romulan thing really uninteresting ... so the last two episodes were fine, but kinda capped a story I wasn't really all that interested in from the start, to be honest. I'm much more interested in how Rios, Raffi and Co move forward and develop.
My sci-fi love (but I prefer fantasy and horror) comes through, as a kid, reading the likes of Lovecraft, Philip K. Dick and Robert Heinlein, so I enjoy a gritty story, anti-heroes (why the Picard or Soji characters doesn't really resonate with me at all) and such.
And it is probably why I never really got into the original Star Trek in the first place (and subsequently didn't bother with later series) ... but what I really like about the original ST is the episodic nature of the show ... there is a subtle storyline going through the episodes (including character development), but you can watch each episode separately, out of order etc.
Season 1 of Discovery was sorta like that and when season 2 unwound I found myself uninterested in how it would resolve. Most of the shows I watch now are one long story of interlinked episodes with cliffhangers at the end of each that it would feel incredibly refreshing to watch something in the vein of the old Star Trek (or like Law & Order) ... but I think I'm of a very small minority who feel like that.
Anyway, have more to say ... but this post is long enough as is ...
In summary ... it was fine, but it is not a show I would ever recommend to my friends, I would recommend Discovery if they wanted to watch sci-fi. There is too much "checking the boxes" in the story and the driving storyline is really not that interesting at all. I will continue watching because I hope season 2 delivers on the potential and cool nuggets sprinkled throughout.
So, as someone who has not watched much ST at all, how interesting is ST: Picard when it is amongst the multitude of shows available through plenty of streaming services?
......
And it is probably why I never really got into the original Star Trek in the first place (and subsequently didn't bother with later series) ... but what I really like about the original ST is the episodic nature of the show ...
@RaraRacing Genuinely interested as to why you are playing this game if you've not watched much Star Trek? I'm not into Marvel so couldn't see myself stumbling into one of their card collecting games, even by accident (if they even have them!)
Not trying to flame or troll. Genuinely interested in your story.
So, as someone who has not watched much ST at all, how interesting is ST: Picard when it is amongst the multitude of shows available through plenty of streaming services?
......
And it is probably why I never really got into the original Star Trek in the first place (and subsequently didn't bother with later series) ... but what I really like about the original ST is the episodic nature of the show ...
@RaraRacing Genuinely interested as to why you are playing this game if you've not watched much Star Trek? I'm not into Marvel so couldn't see myself stumbling into one of their card collecting games, even by accident (if they even have them!)
Not trying to flame or troll. Genuinely interested in your story.
When I was in uni. one of my flatmates really liked ST ... he'd tape shows with the VCR and then watch them at a later date while cooking/relaxing in the afternoon (the TV set-up was in the kitchen). So, it just kinda played in the background while I was cooking for us.
So, I knew about the shows and I distinctly remember seeing some Deep Space Nine ... but I never really paid any attention to it.
Fast forward from the 90s to when the game came out in 2016 ... I had an iPad back then and was away from my family for 6 months ... was playing mobile games to kill the time when I wasn't reading books and through a trawl in the app store STT was at the top of a list ... thought, hah ST, lets see if some of the stuff that loosely filtered into my brain during those uni. days is in the game ... so, I installed it and started playing ... within a short amount of time it became clear that my ageing iPad couldn't handle the game ... it took me aeons to work through one away mission and the game was like moving through molasses.
A few months later I purchased a new phone (Android-based) ... I was thinking about stuff I could install and then thought about STT, which I hadn't played in a while due to the performance issues ... it worked like a charm ... and the rest is history I guess.
Yes, please. And if he and Ian can become good buddies (with some comments about another engineer Geordi met that had a Scottish accent), so much the better.
Comments
Yeah, not much disagreeable there.
I'll add in the immortality != living trope as a down, it's intellectually lazy and unimaginative. Giving Data a send off was nice, and important given the utter car crash that was NEM, but I think they could have done it differently.
Allow me to wax philosophical a moment, in that we are all prisoners of something. No matter what chains we break, physical or metaphysical, the nature of being is that we are still contained in some manner, sometimes within our control, sometimes not.
If we woke tomorrow, immortal, we'd still be physically contained by our body structure.
If we woke the day after that, and we were also now changelings, free to adopt the shape and intent of any physical object, we'd still be constrained by physics.
If the day after that we woke, and we now were Q, we would still be contained by the finities of the universe we live in.
Life isn't about duration of existence, it's about what we can achieve within the boundaries of that existence.
Could you please continue the petty bickering? I find it most intriguing.
~ Data, ST:TNG "Haven"
The Borg
It sounds like the writer(s) here were jacked up anticipating some kind of First Contact style thing with them. Finding the humanity even in the Borg feels like one of the truest Star Trek story ideas in the CBS era. I found the xB's more interesting than yet another escalation of their dominance. I've been active for the last several years as a depression support group facilitator, so the stuff with them resonated with those experiences of mine.
Starfleet
They wrote: "First they try and work with them, then we discover they've been infiltrated by Romulans, then the gang attempt to work around them but, in the end, fall back on them entirely to save the day." I don't see that as a lack of direction, though; I see it as exactly what I read the arc of the season to be: the resetting of Starfleet's moral compass.
Not Following Through
Most of the examples are a matter of reading a lot of details as Chekhovian guns. How literal-minded did someone have to be to think Narissa had to physically meet Soji in order for Narek to be directly between them? Still, I have my own list of ideas not followed through that irk me so I'm in partial agreement.
No Big Twist
Another partial agreement. I'm grateful none of those speculated things ended up being the story; some were fun to kick around throughout the season, but most would have denied this show having its own outcome. That said, the finale as presented was simultaneously hasty and languid.
Disposable Stakes
I'd have titled this "Disposable Antagonists/Villains" instead, but I'm in complete agreement about the fates of Oh, Narissa, and Sutra all being disappointing misfires.
Yes, there are places where shortcuts and laziness ruled the day. Letting Jurati off the hook entirely was the one that bothered me the most, but magicking up an entire fleet that could go toe to toe with 200+ Warbirds (even with an assumption that the Warbirds might be technologically inferior because of the state of Romulan society, that a smaller number of far more advanced Federation ships would be their equal) is up there as well. Even so, I think the darker depiction of Starfleet and the Federation wasn’t just a positive, it was entirely necessary to both the story and as a meta-commentary on society as a whole.
Science fiction is a phenomenally powerful tool for examining our lives, our beliefs, and our institutions in an objective manner. Star Trek never shied away from doing so, and I find it to be on full display here as well. Expecting the Federation and Starfleet to always be unchanging paragons of virtue, for decades or centuries on end, is one of the biggest ideological fallacies in Roddenberry’s idea for the future - the reality is that institutions change over time, that said change isn’t always for the better, and that fear and hatred are always able to inform decisions just as much as rationality and compassion.
Up until now, all of the evils of the Federation are the result of rogue admirals or outside influences. Dougherty’s complicity in relocating the Ba’ku, Leyton’s reign of terror, everything from Conspiracy...all set up as completely counter to the operating principles of the Federation. This time, it’s the Federation itself that is failing, even if the events were precipitated by the Romulans, and I think is a great setup for what will happen in subsequent seasons.
This is an important reminder for us today, as governments in real life are all too happy to set concern for people aside and use fear to divide and confuse us in order to advance less noble agendas.
Getting back on track, I also very much liked seeing Picard’s journey from broken, betrayed retiree to reclaiming the things that made him a great leader. One of my gripes about TNG was that, aside from the post-assimilation recovery and the Kataan probe incident, Picard’s evolution as a person seemed rather stagnant. Data was the one constantly growing, while Picard was already a great leader, ambassador, and ship’s captain. Seeing someone like him fall victim to his own ego (expecting that even a highly decorated admiral wouldn’t be considered expendable by his superiors) and having those closest to him finally have the opportunity/urge to call him on it was as fantastic as seeing Picard pull himself back together. It gives so much more depth to the character and, I think, cements Picard’s Status as the “best” of the captains featured in the various series (Kirk is still my personal favorite, however).
Seeing Raffi go through something similar, albeit in a far more self-destructive way, was likewise interesting. And finally getting a proper goodbye to Data (this, coming from someone who actually managed to enjoy Nemesis) was indeed a tear-inducing moment. Picard was in many ways very closed off emotionally from his crew, and to see him finally share that moment with Data...well, let’s just say that Smoking Jacket Data is near the top of my most-wanted characters list even if he ends up being a Bones-style single-skill DIP monster with no voyage or gauntlet utility.
My completely made-up award for best actor in the show goes to Santiago Cabrera. All due respect to Sir Patrick, the various emergency holograms were so well done in their differences of speech and behaviors (especially the interview session with Raffi, as someone mentioned) really blew me away. I hope we get at least a couple of the holograms as future crew as well, never mind Captain Rios himself.
I am thrilled that we finally got to see more Romulans. I’ve said it many times that, for the species that is supposed to be one of the three most powerful in our section of the galaxy, they got severely shortchanged throughout previous series. Their limited nature is perfectly understandable in TOS/VOY/Disco, we did get some more time with Romulans in both TNG and DS9, and I am sure we could have gotten more if Enterprise had lasted longer, but PIC gives us more than all the rest combined. I still want a short-fun series focusing on the Earth-Romulan war of 2156-2160, though...that has a boatload of potential.
Elnor is a bit of a bummer character for me...I’d like to see him featured a bit more in season 2. Other than a few moments of awesomeness, it’s a lot of “stay on the ship, Elnor” or hiding in an office waiting for Seven to arrive. I think his character in-game is perfectly suited to the skills he was given, though honestly he could have only SEC (again, Bones-style) and be just as useful/desirable. Every one of the other main characters (and Seven) had a purpose, even if it wasn’t a nice one, while Elnor was largely along for the ride.
Speaking of Seven, I can’t wait to see Queen Seven (or whatever she’ll be called) in the game. As complex of a moment as that was, given her history with the Borg and hesitation at dominating the xBs on board, it was completely B.A. to assume control of the Cube like that.
I’m sure I have more thoughts but I am also sure I’ll reach the character limit soon...suffice to say, I found it easy to look past the negatives so far, they struck a nice balance between fan service and maintaining the show’s separate identity, and I can’t wait to see where they go from here.
That was a wonderful summation of the first series. It would appear watching in one go makes for a clearer picture. I can't wait to see it again.
So, as someone who has not watched much ST at all, how interesting is ST: Picard when it is amongst the multitude of shows available through plenty of streaming services?
I have to say that the initial reaction after episode one was positive, but as I was watching episode 2 my interest in what was happening kinda ground to a near standstill and this continued for various episodes.
- I didn't have the satisfaction of "recognition" that ST fans might have (seeing Seven just reminded me about how I missed watching Bosch).
- Apart from 1 or 2 highlights, the characters being presented were on the bland side (e.g. Raffi ... ugh), or what felt like an opportunity for character development was just being left to the side.
- The story just seemed to meander ... "we gotta get a crack team together - let's see how they don't want to but ultimately join the team".
- The whole Soji thing ... I basically felt like I was watching a chunk of Game of Thrones all over again!
But then came the turning episode ... there were little glimmers of hope of good stuff to come in episode 5 (which felt totally out of place with most of what came before it and what came after - but to me, it was out of place in a good way) ... but episode 8 was just plain awesome.
The Raffi character finally came out well. All that sulking and moping in the previous episodes was finally done with and I could finally see why the main character of the show (Picard) admires her.
Rios showed why he is by far the best thing on the show (for me).
Jurati came back reasonably well ... when I first saw her I felt the character had promise but she just got washed over in all the meandering the show did.
The whole storyline in the episode just clicked together really well (would have to rewatch to pinpoint) ... and it left me with ... "hey, let's watch the last two episodes", instead of "man, how many episodes are left in this season?".
It also became painfully clear that Oh and her sidekick (Narissa) are nowhere near the quality of Georgiou from Discovery ... now that is a great antagonist ... and to me, that made the whole Romulan thing really uninteresting ... so the last two episodes were fine, but kinda capped a story I wasn't really all that interested in from the start, to be honest. I'm much more interested in how Rios, Raffi and Co move forward and develop.
My sci-fi love (but I prefer fantasy and horror) comes through, as a kid, reading the likes of Lovecraft, Philip K. Dick and Robert Heinlein, so I enjoy a gritty story, anti-heroes (why the Picard or Soji characters doesn't really resonate with me at all) and such.
And it is probably why I never really got into the original Star Trek in the first place (and subsequently didn't bother with later series) ... but what I really like about the original ST is the episodic nature of the show ... there is a subtle storyline going through the episodes (including character development), but you can watch each episode separately, out of order etc.
Season 1 of Discovery was sorta like that and when season 2 unwound I found myself uninterested in how it would resolve. Most of the shows I watch now are one long story of interlinked episodes with cliffhangers at the end of each that it would feel incredibly refreshing to watch something in the vein of the old Star Trek (or like Law & Order) ... but I think I'm of a very small minority who feel like that.
Anyway, have more to say ... but this post is long enough as is ...
In summary ... it was fine, but it is not a show I would ever recommend to my friends, I would recommend Discovery if they wanted to watch sci-fi. There is too much "checking the boxes" in the story and the driving storyline is really not that interesting at all. I will continue watching because I hope season 2 delivers on the potential and cool nuggets sprinkled throughout.
@RaraRacing Genuinely interested as to why you are playing this game if you've not watched much Star Trek? I'm not into Marvel so couldn't see myself stumbling into one of their card collecting games, even by accident (if they even have them!)
Not trying to flame or troll. Genuinely interested in your story.
When I was in uni. one of my flatmates really liked ST ... he'd tape shows with the VCR and then watch them at a later date while cooking/relaxing in the afternoon (the TV set-up was in the kitchen). So, it just kinda played in the background while I was cooking for us.
So, I knew about the shows and I distinctly remember seeing some Deep Space Nine ... but I never really paid any attention to it.
Fast forward from the 90s to when the game came out in 2016 ... I had an iPad back then and was away from my family for 6 months ... was playing mobile games to kill the time when I wasn't reading books and through a trawl in the app store STT was at the top of a list ... thought, hah ST, lets see if some of the stuff that loosely filtered into my brain during those uni. days is in the game ... so, I installed it and started playing ... within a short amount of time it became clear that my ageing iPad couldn't handle the game ... it took me aeons to work through one away mission and the game was like moving through molasses.
A few months later I purchased a new phone (Android-based) ... I was thinking about stuff I could install and then thought about STT, which I hadn't played in a while due to the performance issues ... it worked like a charm ... and the rest is history I guess.
https://www.inverse.com/entertainment/picard-season-2-geordi-la-forge-levar-burton-return
Could you please continue the petty bickering? I find it most intriguing.
~ Data, ST:TNG "Haven"
Yes, please. And if he and Ian can become good buddies (with some comments about another engineer Geordi met that had a Scottish accent), so much the better.