Empress Georgiou should be correct so they specifically used the masculine “faceless emperor” to throw us off track (It didn’t work). It’s not female King Elizabeth II, it’s not female Emperor Dowager, the title, unlike say Doctor or Captain, is gender specific... I’m voting for they did it to try to hide the plot twist.
Seems more likely that Emperor is now the "correct" term for the head of the Empire. This is clearly the case since that is what she is called now (and in the preview trailer). As to how that developed, a lot can happen in two hundred years and would be in keeping with the long-term trend in titles. As an example in our own time, female actors are now often called actors instead of actresses - tho I'm not sure what the rules are about that.
But I do agree the writers were highly motivated to hide the surprise and went down this road to do so. That much is pretty obvious.
Seems more likely that Emperor is now the "correct" term for the head of the Empire. This is clearly the case since that is what she is called now (and in the preview trailer). As to how that developed, a lot can happen in two hundred years and would be in keeping with the long-term trend in titles.
I guess this could be an explanation for using surnames for emperors too, rather than the traditional forenames. Traditions being dropped and changed over time as they become less important to people.
Level 99. Latest Immortal (957): Chancellor Gowron - October 2023.
In the mirror universe, the Sato Dynasty was the ruling family of the Terran Empire from 2155 to 2277.
The line originated with Empress Sato I who took power in January 2155. It included Empress Sato II and Sato III, the last of the Sato Dynasty, who was overthrown by Grand Admiral Spock in 2277. (ENT - Mirror Universe novel: Age of the Empress; TOS - Mirror Universe novel: The Sorrows of Empire)
It is unclear whether the binary clone created from the DNA of Sato I and Shran was a part of this royal line, or if another of Sato's male consorts was the patriarch of the dynasty.
It is also unclear whether or not there were other Emperors and Empresses in the Sato Dynasty besides the three named. Given the 122-year duration of the family's rule, however, this would seem more likely than not.
That is a great summary of the books, but let's be clear - this is from the books and those are strictly apocryphal here. There is a possible loophole where Sato III is the name Emperor Georgiou takes on when she ascends the throne (or there is some other workaround where Emporer Georgious slips in somewhere between Sato I and Spock), but the shows tend to ignore the books.
btw, even tho Georgiou is not referred to by name in the episode, Lorca does refer to Emperor Georgiou in the preview trailer, so DSC probably doesn't use the mentioned loophole to reconcile with the books.
Wait, what?
So, we already know it is her?!?!?
"The truth is like a lion; you don't have to defend it. Let it loose; it will defend itself."
In the mirror universe, the Sato Dynasty was the ruling family of the Terran Empire from 2155 to 2277.
The line originated with Empress Sato I who took power in January 2155. It included Empress Sato II and Sato III, the last of the Sato Dynasty, who was overthrown by Grand Admiral Spock in 2277. (ENT - Mirror Universe novel: Age of the Empress; TOS - Mirror Universe novel: The Sorrows of Empire)
It is unclear whether the binary clone created from the DNA of Sato I and Shran was a part of this royal line, or if another of Sato's male consorts was the patriarch of the dynasty.
It is also unclear whether or not there were other Emperors and Empresses in the Sato Dynasty besides the three named. Given the 122-year duration of the family's rule, however, this would seem more likely than not.
That is a great summary of the books, but let's be clear - this is from the books and those are strictly apocryphal here. There is a possible loophole where Sato III is the name Emperor Georgiou takes on when she ascends the throne (or there is some other workaround where Emporer Georgious slips in somewhere between Sato I and Spock), but the shows tend to ignore the books.
btw, even tho Georgiou is not referred to by name in the episode, Lorca does refer to Emperor Georgiou in the preview trailer, so DSC probably doesn't use the mentioned loophole to reconcile with the books.
Wait, what?
So, we already know it is her?!?!?
Yes, as of last night.
(Since anyone who wants to avoid spoilers long ago left this thread I'm not going to bother with the tags. Plus I don't know how to do them)
As for the Emperor Empress thing. Hoshi Sato referred to herself as "Empress Sato"
"You're speaking with Empress Sato. Prepare to receive instructions."
In the mirror universe, the Sato Dynasty was the ruling family of the Terran Empire from 2155 to 2277.
The line originated with Empress Sato I who took power in January 2155. It included Empress Sato II and Sato III, the last of the Sato Dynasty, who was overthrown by Grand Admiral Spock in 2277. (ENT - Mirror Universe novel: Age of the Empress; TOS - Mirror Universe novel: The Sorrows of Empire)
It is unclear whether the binary clone created from the DNA of Sato I and Shran was a part of this royal line, or if another of Sato's male consorts was the patriarch of the dynasty.
It is also unclear whether or not there were other Emperors and Empresses in the Sato Dynasty besides the three named. Given the 122-year duration of the family's rule, however, this would seem more likely than not.
That is a great summary of the books, but let's be clear - this is from the books and those are strictly apocryphal here. There is a possible loophole where Sato III is the name Emperor Georgiou takes on when she ascends the throne (or there is some other workaround where Emporer Georgious slips in somewhere between Sato I and Spock), but the shows tend to ignore the books.
btw, even tho Georgiou is not referred to by name in the episode, Lorca does refer to Emperor Georgiou in the preview trailer, so DSC probably doesn't use the mentioned loophole to reconcile with the books.
Wait, what?
So, we already know it is her?!?!?
Yes, as of last night.
(Since anyone who wants to avoid spoilers long ago left this thread I'm not going to bother with the tags. Plus I don't know how to do them)
As for the Emperor Empress thing. Hoshi Sato referred to herself as "Empress Sato"
"You're speaking with Empress Sato. Prepare to receive instructions."
Philippa Georgiou referred to herself as Emperor.
"Don't you bow before your Emperor?"
Cool. I can see the next Mega-Event now.
One of the weeks will have 5* Emperor Gregiou. The Mega Reward will be 5* Killy.
Seems more likely that Emperor is now the "correct" term for the head of the Empire. This is clearly the case since that is what she is called now (and in the preview trailer). As to how that developed, a lot can happen in two hundred years and would be in keeping with the long-term trend in titles. As an example in our own time, female actors are now often called actors instead of actresses - tho I'm not sure what the rules are about that.
But I do agree the writers were highly motivated to hide the surprise and went down this road to do so. That much is pretty obvious.
There's nothing gender-specific in the etymology of the word "Emperor" — like there is in "mailman" or "chairman" — so, it also makes some sense that they might have removed "Empress" (which is more gender-specific, a la "stewardess" and "actress") from the lexicon in that version of the future.
Or it's just a personal choice on her part. There have been female captains who preferred being called "Ma'am" and ones who preferred being called "Sir".
Could you please continue the petty bickering? I find it most intriguing. ~ Data, ST:TNG "Haven"
Got to thinking about something. After seeing what Voq went through, I have a lot higher respect for what Arne Darvin must have endured prior to "The Trouble with Tribbles".
Got to thinking about something. After seeing what Voq went through, I have a lot higher respect for what Arne Darvin must have endured prior to "The Trouble with Tribbles".
Non-Canon references also have referred to him as a ridged Klingon before so..... ouch
Wouldn’t a simple DNA scan reveal the truth? I mean they can scan whole planet for the single Vulcan life form...
Just how specific and thorough scanners are in Star Trek has always been unclear to me. It ultimately seems to come down to whether they're trying to create an obstacle in, or to expedite, the story they're telling.
Yeah but even TODAY we could figure out he’s not human with a DNA test no matter how much organ cutting, bone crushing and skin stretching you do... I can’t imagine that the process has become less accurate and more time consuming 300 years later...
But Star Trek... suspend disbelief... phasers on stun... speaking of which, given how many people die from “non lethal” police tasers today... do y’all reckon a few stunned people with existing heart conditions don’t make it either?
given how many people die from “non lethal” police tasers today... do y’all reckon a few stunned people with existing heart conditions don’t make it either?
In The Undiscovered Country, two crewmen were murdered by phaser stun at close range.
given how many people die from “non lethal” police tasers today... do y’all reckon a few stunned people with existing heart conditions don’t make it either?
In The Undiscovered Country, two crewmen were murdered by phaser stun at close range.
See, I knew it!!! And just to bash a point to death, they have been doing DNA test studies on sushi restaurants for years now and finding out we’re mostly getting ripped off with fake fish... some of which is banned in Japan...
Come to think of it, why had no one after The Undiscovered Country developed a cloaking device that stayed active while firing? That seems like a hell of a thing to leave on the table after General Chang had an operational model.
Come to think of it, why had no one after The Undiscovered Country developed a cloaking device that stayed active while firing? That seems like a hell of a thing to leave on the table after General Chang had an operational model.
If you can answer that, you will also have a spoiler answer to what happened to the mushroom drive in the 10 years between Disco and TOS... and we haven’t really seen Pepto-Bismal Klingon blood since...
Come to think of it, why had no one after The Undiscovered Country developed a cloaking device that stayed active while firing? That seems like a hell of a thing to leave on the table after General Chang had an operational model.
It wasn't as large an advantage when they realized they could detect it via emissions - the thing's got to have a tailpipe.
Which maybe leaves the question of why the Federation didn't use emission tracking as the basis for more reliable cloak detection.
Come to think of it, why had no one after The Undiscovered Country developed a cloaking device that stayed active while firing? That seems like a hell of a thing to leave on the table after General Chang had an operational model.
If you can answer that, you will also have a spoiler answer to what happened to the mushroom drive in the 10 years between Disco and TOS... and we haven’t really seen Pepto-Bismal Klingon blood since...
There's nothing in the rest of the canon that says no one was ever trying to revive or further that; just no evidence that they did, and the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. I think it's pretty obvious that they're building the case that the spore drive tech is too unsafe and unpredictable for general use. We're just now beginning to see what it did to Stamets, and we have no idea what other side effects are in store for him--or, for that matter, anyone else on the ship being exposed to so many of those jumps.
Come to think of it, why had no one after The Undiscovered Country developed a cloaking device that stayed active while firing? That seems like a hell of a thing to leave on the table after General Chang had an operational model.
It wasn't as large an advantage when they realized they could detect it via emissions - the thing's got to have a tailpipe.
Sure, but it would still be a potent first strike weapon. Attack while cloaked to inflict an entirely unexpected blow, then drop the cloak and engage like any other ship.
Which maybe leaves the question of why the Federation didn't use emission tracking as the basis for more reliable cloak detection.
I don't think this is the $64,000 question, but it's surely one on the way to it.
Come to think of it, why had no one after The Undiscovered Country developed a cloaking device that stayed active while firing? That seems like a hell of a thing to leave on the table after General Chang had an operational model.
It wasn't as large an advantage when they realized they could detect it via emissions - the thing's got to have a tailpipe.
Sure, but it would still be a potent first strike weapon. Attack while cloaked to inflict an entirely unexpected blow, then drop the cloak and engage like any other ship.
Which maybe leaves the question of why the Federation didn't use emission tracking as the basis for more reliable cloak detection.
I don't think this is the $64,000 question, but it's surely one on the way to it.
I'm assuming tech continued to progress. And some members of the Federation and Starfleet were less interested in detecting Cloaked ships than they were creating ones that were a new form of cloaking. Also not letting the Treaty of Algernon stand in the way. The phased cloak was one intense idea... May not have had emissions as we understand them.
Come to think of it, why had no one after The Undiscovered Country developed a cloaking device that stayed active while firing? That seems like a hell of a thing to leave on the table after General Chang had an operational model.
It wasn't as large an advantage when they realized they could detect it via emissions - the thing's got to have a tailpipe.
Sure, but it would still be a potent first strike weapon. Attack while cloaked to inflict an entirely unexpected blow, then drop the cloak and engage like any other ship.
Which maybe leaves the question of why the Federation didn't use emission tracking as the basis for more reliable cloak detection.
I don't think this is the $64,000 question, but it's surely one on the way to it.
I'm assuming tech continued to progress. And some members of the Federation and Starfleet were less interested in detecting Cloaked ships than they were creating ones that were a new form of cloaking. Also not letting the Treaty of Algernon stand in the way. The phased cloak was one intense idea... May not have had emissions as we understand them.
The phased cloaking device is a great example of experimental Treknology that seems to have been left behind after some shady early use, and I'm glad you brought that up. A lot of what Riker described about then-Captain Pressman on the Pegasus sounds a lot like what we've been seeing from Lorca on the Discovery. Starfleet has a long history of some shady people doing shady things, when you get down to it. Just some offhand examples:
Captain Merik, responsible for the Roman society in "Bread and Circuses"
Federation cultural observer John Gill, responsible for the Nazi society in "Patterns of Force"
Captain Tracey, who became a ruler of an indigenous people to keep his Fountain of Youth in "The Omega Glory"
Garth of Izar, remanded to a mental health facility that he subsequently took over in "Whom Gods Destroy"
Dr. Janice Lester, who swapped bodies with Captain Kirk in order to realize her dream of commanding a starship in "Turnabout Intruder"*
Admiral Doherty, who conspired with the Son'a to plunder Ba'ku in Insurrection
Luther Sloan, Section 31 operative who, among other things, tried to engineer the genocide of the Dominion Founders using a biological weapon unknowingly transmitted through an infected Odo
Let's also not forget that in "Tomorrow Is Yesterday", the Enterprise traveled back in time on purpose as its mission. This was presented as a perfectly routine thing for Starfleet to order.
*In fairness to Dr. Lester, the misogynistic policy against women commanding starships was baffling even within the context of TOS's alleged egalitarianism. This is one element of TOS I'm glad Disco has rejected.
Comments
Seems more likely that Emperor is now the "correct" term for the head of the Empire. This is clearly the case since that is what she is called now (and in the preview trailer). As to how that developed, a lot can happen in two hundred years and would be in keeping with the long-term trend in titles. As an example in our own time, female actors are now often called actors instead of actresses - tho I'm not sure what the rules are about that.
But I do agree the writers were highly motivated to hide the surprise and went down this road to do so. That much is pretty obvious.
I guess this could be an explanation for using surnames for emperors too, rather than the traditional forenames. Traditions being dropped and changed over time as they become less important to people.
Wait, what?
So, we already know it is her?!?!?
Yes, as of last night.
(Since anyone who wants to avoid spoilers long ago left this thread I'm not going to bother with the tags. Plus I don't know how to do them)
As for the Emperor Empress thing. Hoshi Sato referred to herself as "Empress Sato"
"You're speaking with Empress Sato. Prepare to receive instructions."
Philippa Georgiou referred to herself as Emperor.
"Don't you bow before your Emperor?"
Cool. I can see the next Mega-Event now.
One of the weeks will have 5* Emperor Gregiou. The Mega Reward will be 5* Killy.
==============================================================
For the Spoilers thing, Click on the paragraph symbol thingie:
Options are:
"Quote"
"Code"
"Spoilers"
No problem. I stumbled across it the normal Scott way. I clicked EVERY Button, until I saw it.
There's nothing gender-specific in the etymology of the word "Emperor" — like there is in "mailman" or "chairman" — so, it also makes some sense that they might have removed "Empress" (which is more gender-specific, a la "stewardess" and "actress") from the lexicon in that version of the future.
Or it's just a personal choice on her part. There have been female captains who preferred being called "Ma'am" and ones who preferred being called "Sir".
Could you please continue the petty bickering? I find it most intriguing.
~ Data, ST:TNG "Haven"
It's not crunch time yet. I'll let you know when.
As long as the Georgiou week isn't a Galaxy or Galaxy Hybrid, I'm totally down with this.
Non-Canon references also have referred to him as a ridged Klingon before so..... ouch
Just how specific and thorough scanners are in Star Trek has always been unclear to me. It ultimately seems to come down to whether they're trying to create an obstacle in, or to expedite, the story they're telling.
Had to Google that one. Yeah, that's a handy illustration of Treknology expanding or contracting to suit the episode at hand.
From the show that forgot that you can't transport with shields up.
That show had the memory of a drunken goldfish.
But Star Trek... suspend disbelief... phasers on stun... speaking of which, given how many people die from “non lethal” police tasers today... do y’all reckon a few stunned people with existing heart conditions don’t make it either?
In The Undiscovered Country, two crewmen were murdered by phaser stun at close range.
See, I knew it!!! And just to bash a point to death, they have been doing DNA test studies on sushi restaurants for years now and finding out we’re mostly getting ripped off with fake fish... some of which is banned in Japan...
http://nationalpost.com/life/food/fake-fish-study-finds-nearly-half-of-sushi-served-at-restaurants-is-mislabelled/amp
If you can answer that, you will also have a spoiler answer to what happened to the mushroom drive in the 10 years between Disco and TOS... and we haven’t really seen Pepto-Bismal Klingon blood since...
It wasn't as large an advantage when they realized they could detect it via emissions - the thing's got to have a tailpipe.
Which maybe leaves the question of why the Federation didn't use emission tracking as the basis for more reliable cloak detection.
There's nothing in the rest of the canon that says no one was ever trying to revive or further that; just no evidence that they did, and the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. I think it's pretty obvious that they're building the case that the spore drive tech is too unsafe and unpredictable for general use. We're just now beginning to see what it did to Stamets, and we have no idea what other side effects are in store for him--or, for that matter, anyone else on the ship being exposed to so many of those jumps.
Sure, but it would still be a potent first strike weapon. Attack while cloaked to inflict an entirely unexpected blow, then drop the cloak and engage like any other ship.
I don't think this is the $64,000 question, but it's surely one on the way to it.
I'm assuming tech continued to progress. And some members of the Federation and Starfleet were less interested in detecting Cloaked ships than they were creating ones that were a new form of cloaking. Also not letting the Treaty of Algernon stand in the way. The phased cloak was one intense idea... May not have had emissions as we understand them.
You mean, this...?
Could you please continue the petty bickering? I find it most intriguing.
~ Data, ST:TNG "Haven"
The phased cloaking device is a great example of experimental Treknology that seems to have been left behind after some shady early use, and I'm glad you brought that up. A lot of what Riker described about then-Captain Pressman on the Pegasus sounds a lot like what we've been seeing from Lorca on the Discovery. Starfleet has a long history of some shady people doing shady things, when you get down to it. Just some offhand examples:
Let's also not forget that in "Tomorrow Is Yesterday", the Enterprise traveled back in time on purpose as its mission. This was presented as a perfectly routine thing for Starfleet to order.
*In fairness to Dr. Lester, the misogynistic policy against women commanding starships was baffling even within the context of TOS's alleged egalitarianism. This is one element of TOS I'm glad Disco has rejected.