For me, there needs to be a balance so that if you want dupes, you can, if you don't then you get something of value.
A re-roll doesn't achieve much, I know I could re-roll several times and it's be a while before a useful SR appeared from the regular portal.
My two thoughts are:
If you get a behold with 3 choices of FF cards, you can exchange for a half-price SR citation - if you've not enough honour, then fine, you're 'overdrawn' and unable to buy anything with honour until you've accrued a positive amount again - this means you have the option to get a dupe, and if you don't want one, then something else of value. If your honour is already 'overdrawn', this option isn't available.
Alternatively, you can exchange for a random early-days, lower stat 5* card. If you've got that card, or don't want it, you've at least got a greater amount of honour out of a FF behold.
Either of those would make me more likely to buy packs again.
Good suggestion. The behold problem is just another clear indication of how you get less the more you spend in this game.
But isn't diminishing returns expected in just about any investment activity? You, first, spend on the item featuring the best ROI (in this case, the monthly card). Every subsequent expenditure will be less and less efficient. This is normal and expected, no?
Expected in drinking or gambling...but this is supposedly a game. A leisurely activity. I’ve never been treated so poorly by my chessboard or basketball hoop
Good suggestion. The behold problem is just another clear indication of how you get less the more you spend in this game.
But isn't diminishing returns expected in just about any investment activity? You, first, spend on the item featuring the best ROI (in this case, the monthly card). Every subsequent expenditure will be less and less efficient. This is normal and expected, no?
Expected in drinking or gambling...but this is supposedly a game. A leisurely activity. I’ve never been treated so poorly by my chessboard or basketball hoop
Lol I can just imagine the hoop getting smaller with every shot you make :P
well, mathematically, the bigger your fused collection is, the harder it;s going to be to fill in the missing gaps. that's pretty basic. And I think that's part of the attraction for the masochistic personalities that play games like this...:) It's supposed to be hard. Think of it as a marker of your success--that you've nailed so many of the pantheon that you're just sitting around waiting to score a Superman #1. It's a finite game. If you play it well enough, long enough, you're going to run out of game to play.
With all do respect, there are quite a few things that are completely wrong about this post;)
First off the comparison between DB and parents of a kid at Christmas is seriously ludicrous.. Last time I checked my parents did not charge me for my gifts lol, so unless you are assuming that all portals are free, which for most of us they are not. This is a seriously flawed analogy.
I don't find it to be flawed. I was only trying to bring into focus the way some players are acting when they don't receive what they want, and for what I would consider to be the wrong reasons. When you buy packs, it's not like going into a store and buying something, and then when you get home there's another model in the box. Of course, you then have the right to complain and request an exchange. However, with portal pulls, you're paying for the CHANCE to get what you want, thus, there's no traction for a complaint, or an exchange. Beholds are a nice little bonus, basically giving you another chance within the chance you purchased. It's not DB's fault that some players don't know what their buying.
When you say, why would DB do this? why would they offer an alternative to being stuck with characters you already have when they dont have too. Lets think on this, I Think the better question is why wouldn't they do this? They are in effect a customer service based game, so if it doesn't cost them anything, and since we are talking about icons on a game, I would say it doesn't, or the fact that it keeps there customer base who pays for the game, happy, Again I ask why wouldn't they ?
Speaking of flawed arguments and since you brought it up, there are plenty of reasons why they WOULDN'T do this, the biggest of which is that even though they are a business that requires customer service (as all businesses do), their main priority is to make money. They know that they can make money from people spending on 10x packs. I can't see them agreeing to make it easier to obtain crew in a 10x pack when the behold is already a gift, as opposed to getting just a straight drop (which for the purposes of this thread would be someone you already had FF/FE).
You say the RNG is part of the game, well if that RNG can be improved, why would you not do so? if it makes the game more enjoyable and less fustrating for the people who pay to play it...
If you think that they would even consider changing the RNG just because players want them to, now that's ludicrous my friend. If that were the case, there's no reason to have RNG to begin with. Where does it stop? Why not let players individually pick their 10 crew? Why not let players decide if they get a 3* or a 5*? Let's also remember that we're talking about 10x pulls that are different for everyone. One player's treasure is another man's trash. You're suggesting that the RNG can be improved for each individual player, dependent on their crew at the time, on each individual 10x pack, all of which are ever changing. I don't see how that is even remotely possible.
Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but before you go attacking someone else's opinion, I'd make sure you have your own ducks in a row. Oh, I'd also proofread, just sayin.
"I would have told him anything. Anything at all. But more than that, I believed that I could see...five lights."
~Captain Picard ST:TNGChain of Command
Mariachi Q - Déjà QQuote - But I feel like celebrating! - Thank You! H.M.S. Pinafore Data - InsurrectionQuote - And his fist be ever ready for a knockdown blow. - Thank You!
Rascal Picard/Guinan - RascalsQuote - I want to see my father!
Kivas Fajo - The Most ToysQuote - What a marvelous contradiction. A military pacifist!
Batai - The Inner LightQuote - This tree is our symbol. Our affirmation of life. Irumodic Syndrome Picard - All Good ThingsQuote - You said it was earl grey. I'd swear it was darjeeling. - Thank You! B-4 - NemesisQuote - Why do you have a shiny head? - Thank You!
Zero G Worf - First ContactQuote - Assimilate this!
@Marko Ramius - "We also get duplicate 4* crew in voyages all the time. For some reason, this doesn't instill the rage that is realized in the FF behold."
The reason (in my opinion) this doesn't bother anyone is a) voyages are essentially free (just a minimal bit of clicking effort), and b) many people are just using them for honor farming anyway. So if you get a needed 4*, great! If you get an airlocked 4*, great! You win either way.
The primary reason (again, IMO) it angers people with portal pulls is that most portals are not free. We acquire them via dilithium, real cash, and/or significant effort playing events. So players want something tangible in return, and 200 honor just isn't enough to meet that desire.
While I agree that there is a difference because packs are paid for, I still think that some players think that there's some expectation to get what they want, just because they paid for a pack. As I mentioned in my previous reply, when you buy a pack, you cannot have any expectations. The only think you're guaranteed on a 10x pull (which is clearly stated in the info) is 1 super rare or better. Otherwise, you're paying for the chance to "win" (get what you want). As I mentioned before, it's like playing a slot machine. We cannot complain about not getting something that is not guaranteed. Let's also remember that the behold is something extra. They don't have to give them to us at all.
As for the honor, I agree that there seems to be a disparity as to the perceived value of the cards in relation to the amount of honor we receive for them, but just remember that there was a time when honor did not exist. We got nothing for airlocking crew. I just think that some players should be happier for the things that DB offers us (ex. beholds and honor), even if they're not exactly what we want.
"I would have told him anything. Anything at all. But more than that, I believed that I could see...five lights."
~Captain Picard ST:TNGChain of Command
Mariachi Q - Déjà QQuote - But I feel like celebrating! - Thank You! H.M.S. Pinafore Data - InsurrectionQuote - And his fist be ever ready for a knockdown blow. - Thank You!
Rascal Picard/Guinan - RascalsQuote - I want to see my father!
Kivas Fajo - The Most ToysQuote - What a marvelous contradiction. A military pacifist!
Batai - The Inner LightQuote - This tree is our symbol. Our affirmation of life. Irumodic Syndrome Picard - All Good ThingsQuote - You said it was earl grey. I'd swear it was darjeeling. - Thank You! B-4 - NemesisQuote - Why do you have a shiny head? - Thank You!
Zero G Worf - First ContactQuote - Assimilate this!
@Marko Ramius - "We also get duplicate 4* crew in voyages all the time. For some reason, this doesn't instill the rage that is realized in the FF behold."
The reason (in my opinion) this doesn't bother anyone is a) voyages are essentially free (just a minimal bit of clicking effort), and b) many people are just using them for honor farming anyway. So if you get a needed 4*, great! If you get an airlocked 4*, great! You win either way.
The primary reason (again, IMO) it angers people with portal pulls is that most portals are not free. We acquire them via dilithium, real cash, and/or significant effort playing events. So players want something tangible in return, and 200 honor just isn't enough to meet that desire.
While I agree that there is a difference because packs are paid for, I still think that some players think that there's some expectation to get what they want, just because they paid for a pack. As I mentioned in my previous reply, when you buy a pack, you cannot have any expectations. The only think you're guaranteed on a 10x pull (which is clearly stated in the info) is 1 super rare or better. Otherwise, you're paying for the chance to "win" (get what you want). As I mentioned before, it's like playing a slot machine. We cannot complain about not getting something that is not guaranteed. Let's also remember that the behold is something extra. They don't have to give them to us at all.
As for the honor, I agree that there seems to be a disparity as to the perceived value of the cards in relation to the amount of honor we receive for them, but just remember that there was a time when honor did not exist. We got nothing for airlocking crew. I just think that some players should be happier for the things that DB offers us (ex. beholds and honor), even if they're not exactly what we want.
Actually that's not quite true. We did receive things for discards, but it was trainers and credits.
Maybe a compromise would be to restore the credits given on a discard.
Would help with replications and thus immortalizing FF SRs.... (shrug) just looking for an idea.
If DB implemented a system where you're offered additional honor for a FF behold I think they'd sell more packs. More than you'd get for use airlocking but less than a citation. For a 4* maybe 1500 honour and for a 5* 3500 (5000 maybe). I'd love the honor to be more but I think this way DB are still keeping the honor low and not devaluing it while players wouldn't be so angry about FF beholds and would may be more likely to purchase packs again. Maybe a button at the bottom, and only if you've already got everything FF, you can't choose it if there's a star available.
I just hit Captain Level 69, and I'm now in this club -- where super rare beholds are often a set of three crew I have immortalized. It's very frustrating, as the main thing I spend is not money, but time. If I'm going to have to spend an inordinate amount of time to continue progressing, and my rate of progress is now going to slow, my interest in playing will also wane.
I'm at Captain Level 66 myself Matt, and this has also been my experience for many months now. I can't recall the last time I actually got a Legendary Behold, but it was much earlier this year. I've opened plenty of portal packs since the beginning of the year too and they've yielded some Super Rare characters occasionally that I did need, but 90% of the time I am only getting Honor Points or fuel for the Replicator due to the frequency of Super Rare or Rare FF/FE & Immortalized characters appearing and the plethora of useless ship schematics.
It's quite annoying...and it's gotten to the point where I've decided I won't spend any more money on the game other than the $4 monthly card. I hadn't spent any money on the game for several months, but early on in June I did purchase some additional dilithium crystals and also bought several of the weekly portal pack offers, including a few of the monthly event portal pack offers. I even indulged in one of the 'Double The Crew' offers after picking up Bell Riots Bashir as part of the event rewards. But I can no longer justify these expenditures...the drops of needed Super Rare or Legendary characters in the portal packs just aren't there for me. It's throwing money away at this point and just isn't a good investment.
Further disappointment along the same lines comes within the Voyages, where if I do get a 4* character I have maybe a 1 out of 10 chance that it'll be someone I can fuse to an existing character.
I agree with the others who believe that the idea to improve upon the present situation is an acceptable and reasonable measure. And it doesn't strike me as being something difficult for DB to implement. Adding a chance at increasing the selection to seeing an additional 3 characters would provide players with an increased opportunity to potentially acquire someone they could actually use.
While I agree that there is a difference because packs are paid for, I still think that some players think that there's some expectation to get what they want, just because they paid for a pack. As I mentioned in my previous reply, when you buy a pack, you cannot have any expectations. The only think you're guaranteed on a 10x pull (which is clearly stated in the info) is 1 super rare or better. Otherwise, you're paying for the chance to "win" (get what you want). As I mentioned before, it's like playing a slot machine. We cannot complain about not getting something that is not guaranteed. Let's also remember that the behold is something extra. They don't have to give them to us at all.
You should have the expectation of getting something useful when you've paid cash for it though.
Now given this is partially a card collecting game, for some that means either a new card or something that will help FF an existing card, for other that means a card they can add to their crew even if they've already got them FF one or more times.
And the important bit, for DB, is that players keep forking over cash. By having a self-limiting system, you end up being dangerously reliant on whales and new players willing to spend.
They keep churning out 5* cards to keep the whales spending, but what happens when they say 'enough'?
The current model is broken for DB, now I've no suggestions for them, but in their boots I'd be looking at how other games are tackling this issue and weighing up options.
For me, there needs to be a balance so that if you want dupes, you can, if you don't then you get something of value.
A re-roll doesn't achieve much, I know I could re-roll several times and it's be a while before a useful SR appeared from the regular portal.
My two thoughts are:
If you get a behold with 3 choices of FF cards, you can exchange for a half-price SR citation - if you've not enough honour, then fine, you're 'overdrawn' and unable to buy anything with honour until you've accrued a positive amount again - this means you have the option to get a dupe, and if you don't want one, then something else of value. If your honour is already 'overdrawn', this option isn't available.
Alternatively, you can exchange for a random early-days, lower stat 5* card. If you've got that card, or don't want it, you've at least got a greater amount of honour out of a FF behold.
Either of those would make me more likely to buy packs again.
Here's the problem. You're asking too much. As players have stated, they don't OWE us anything. We're choosing to take the risk. It's a gamble.
My suggestion is that if DB implemented this fairly conservative change, they would increase their profit margin from increased sales AND make players a little more comfortable with taking the risk. It's WIN-WIN.
Meanwhile, from a technical standpoint, your solution is way too complicated to implement properly.
You should have the expectation of getting something useful when you've paid cash for it though.
As much as I would like this scenario, I can't agree.
Remember McDonald's Monopoly? When I was young and uninformed as to how these promotions work, I remember collecting 2 out of 3 stickers for everything in the prize book with the help of my parents' money, including the large prizes, such as the cash prize and the car. We continued to collect and win some of the smaller prizes like free fries and burgers until all that was left were the large prizes. The next time we went to McDonald's, I expected to be able to win one of these prizes because the only pieces I had missing were the ones for the large prizes. Of course, this didn't happen, and I just ended up with duplicates of the stickers that I already had.
I learned a valuable lesson that day which still applies in our fun game here today. McDonald's didn't owe us anything because they hadn't guaranteed us anything. Even though we paid cash we still were only playing for the chance to win something. I also learned that just because I needed a 3rd sticker to win a car, didn't mean that I was going to get it. What did I do with the duplicate stickers? Either saved them for another Monopoly board to begin again, or just threw them away. You know what I didn't do? Complain to McDonald's that I didn't win anything, and demand that they change their policies regarding the game so that it would be easier for me to win, because I had paid cash.
This is all with no McDonald's "beholds," and also with no compensation for the stickers that were duplicates. We get both of these things. Now like I said, of course I would like have a better chance to get what I want. Who wouldn't? I'm just saying that DB has no reason to change their policies, and I don't blame them one bit.
"I would have told him anything. Anything at all. But more than that, I believed that I could see...five lights."
~Captain Picard ST:TNGChain of Command
Mariachi Q - Déjà QQuote - But I feel like celebrating! - Thank You! H.M.S. Pinafore Data - InsurrectionQuote - And his fist be ever ready for a knockdown blow. - Thank You!
Rascal Picard/Guinan - RascalsQuote - I want to see my father!
Kivas Fajo - The Most ToysQuote - What a marvelous contradiction. A military pacifist!
Batai - The Inner LightQuote - This tree is our symbol. Our affirmation of life. Irumodic Syndrome Picard - All Good ThingsQuote - You said it was earl grey. I'd swear it was darjeeling. - Thank You! B-4 - NemesisQuote - Why do you have a shiny head? - Thank You!
Zero G Worf - First ContactQuote - Assimilate this!
Just pulled 70x 10 premium packs and got 8 legendary beholds, 4!!! of those have been all immortal beholds , so just 2.200 honor. Great. NOT
Monthly card players have no such issues... Maybe it's a sign some people just spend too much for their own good and inevitably the average yield from pulls decreases.
Why do we believe that free market principles don’t apply to buying 10X portals ?
Presumably DB understands supply and demand curves and knows a) how many are sold and b) where the optimum point is (if they don’t - hire me - I can make a lot of money for you!)
If you are at the point where your personal needs (ie. 10X Portals no longer give you what you want) then the logical position is to stop buying them.
If the player base is aging and new spenders are limited - then the market will move in the favor of buyers and I am sure we will see changes. If the player base is growing and new spenders are in the majority - then the market will move in favor of the sellers.
I have little doubt that DB is in a good space as they are continuing to add substantive changes (such as the new smirmish event) - rather than tweak the basic economy of portals which indicates money to spend.
Why do we believe that free market principles don’t apply to buying 10X portals ?
Presumably DB understands supply and demand curves and knows a) how many are sold and b) where the optimum point is (if they don’t - hire me - I can make a lot of money for you!)
If you are at the point where your personal needs (ie. 10X Portals no longer give you what you want) then the logical position is to stop buying them.
If the player base is aging and new spenders are limited - then the market will move in the favor of buyers and I am sure we will see changes. If the player base is growing and new spenders are in the majority - then the market will move in favor of the sellers.
I have little doubt that DB is in a good space as they are continuing to add substantive changes (such as the new smirmish event) - rather than tweak the basic economy of portals which indicates money to spend.
I'm glad someone else understands where I'm coming from.
"I would have told him anything. Anything at all. But more than that, I believed that I could see...five lights."
~Captain Picard ST:TNGChain of Command
Mariachi Q - Déjà QQuote - But I feel like celebrating! - Thank You! H.M.S. Pinafore Data - InsurrectionQuote - And his fist be ever ready for a knockdown blow. - Thank You!
Rascal Picard/Guinan - RascalsQuote - I want to see my father!
Kivas Fajo - The Most ToysQuote - What a marvelous contradiction. A military pacifist!
Batai - The Inner LightQuote - This tree is our symbol. Our affirmation of life. Irumodic Syndrome Picard - All Good ThingsQuote - You said it was earl grey. I'd swear it was darjeeling. - Thank You! B-4 - NemesisQuote - Why do you have a shiny head? - Thank You!
Zero G Worf - First ContactQuote - Assimilate this!
YES! one free shuffle on beholds.
Since i would be less likely to be disappointed,
It would strongly encourage me to PAY FOR PACKS.
I have a question for everyone advocating for the shuffle. What happens if we get the shuffle, you get a FF behold, you press the shuffle button, and then receive another FF behold? If one FF behold produces this much rage, I can only imagine what two of them would do. What's next? Where do we stop? 2 shuffles? 5? 10? Citation (which I've already mentioned is WAY overcompensating)? Pick your own behold? Free 5*?
In the immortal words of Captain Picard in Insurrection when discussing the movement of the Ba'Ku:
"How many people does it take, Admiral, before it becomes wrong? Hmm? A thousand, fifty thousand, a million? How many people does it take, Admiral?"
Let's remember that what we ask for is a slippery slope. Oh, and @Typhon Loop if the only joy you get, and your reason for staying around is pulling 10x packs, it may be time to consider the forum manifesto retirement.
"I would have told him anything. Anything at all. But more than that, I believed that I could see...five lights."
~Captain Picard ST:TNGChain of Command
Mariachi Q - Déjà QQuote - But I feel like celebrating! - Thank You! H.M.S. Pinafore Data - InsurrectionQuote - And his fist be ever ready for a knockdown blow. - Thank You!
Rascal Picard/Guinan - RascalsQuote - I want to see my father!
Kivas Fajo - The Most ToysQuote - What a marvelous contradiction. A military pacifist!
Batai - The Inner LightQuote - This tree is our symbol. Our affirmation of life. Irumodic Syndrome Picard - All Good ThingsQuote - You said it was earl grey. I'd swear it was darjeeling. - Thank You! B-4 - NemesisQuote - Why do you have a shiny head? - Thank You!
Zero G Worf - First ContactQuote - Assimilate this!
The system as it stands does seem counter intuitive.
As we repeatedly spend money on something we should expect to get less value for that money. But this is an internal equation, you should be getting diminishing marginal utility from additional purchases.
Most businesses recognise this and provide *extra* value to large purchasers. It seems crazy to me to have such strong disincentives for people to spend extra money.
From a gameplay perspective I'm really not gaining a huge amount anymore. Dancing Chekov and Romulan Picard were very similar for example. In a business where the marginal cost of creating 1 Dancing Chekov is close to zero, you'd think they'd offer Romulan Picard owners an additional incentive to purchase Dancing Chekov. They could do this through gameplay, by having similar characters provide bonuses to each other etc.
My point is that there's probably a lot of us right now that have available budget and still play the game, but we need to be further incentivised to part with our cash, instead we are being disincentivised. Seems like it's just bad business.
Those of you that assume that DB knows what it's doing could be wrong. So far they are 1 for 3 on big decisions. Lots of businesses fail through bad management and poor focus on what matters. And what matters is keeping your customers spending money, not punishing them for doing so.
YES! one free shuffle on beholds.
Since i would be less likely to be disappointed,
It would strongly encourage me to PAY FOR PACKS.
I have a question for everyone advocating for the shuffle. What happens if we get the shuffle, you get a FF behold, you press the shuffle button, and then receive another FF behold? If one FF behold produces this much rage, I can only imagine what two of them would do.
While I can't say I'm necessarily "advocating" for a "shuffle" button (and don't even know whether or not it would work in practice), I do think it's one possible solution to consider.
As far as your question, I'll bite: I fully expect that a good deal of the time, such a shuffle would indeed bring up a second batch of FF/immortalized crew. And personally I don't think it'd bother me that much. I would know that I'd gotten a "second spin" to double my odds, and that would probably appease me enough. Eventually it'd pay off, I'm sure — but at my current level, I certainly wouldn't expect all or even most of the second spins to bear fruit.
However, I'd just as soon see other options explored... maybe a check against your current crew which gives a higher drop percentage to crew that you don't currently own? I don't know. And honestly, I don't really expect anything to ever be done about this. I of course know that the further one gets in collecting crew, the more this is bound to happen — but that doesn't mean I'll stop wishing for some solution to the issue. As I said, I'd certainly spend more money on premium pulls if I wasn't so sure I'd get all-Honor choices so frequently.
Could you please continue the petty bickering? I find it most intriguing. ~ Data, ST:TNG "Haven"
Aha the double FF behold, a sea of pitchforks unto itself.
To be honest, I'd probably suggest DB gives some kind of special legendary pack for VIP 20 players or something. As for myself, a low spender, I'm concentrating on the super-rares, for fun. I just don't have the funds to spend big on the golds.
I'd be very surprised if I finished this game with all the purples, but I'm half-way there for immirtalizing them which is quite a surprise for me. Give me another year, and I might be pissed off because Dolim hasn't dropped for six months, but for now I'm happy enough.
YES! one free shuffle on beholds.
Since i would be less likely to be disappointed,
It would strongly encourage me to PAY FOR PACKS.
I have a question for everyone advocating for the shuffle. What happens if we get the shuffle, you get a FF behold, you press the shuffle button, and then receive another FF behold? If one FF behold produces this much rage, I can only imagine what two of them would do.
While I can't say I'm necessarily "advocating" for a "shuffle" button (and don't even know whether or not it would work in practice), I do think it's one possible solution to consider.
As far as your question, I'll bite: I fully expect that a good deal of the time, such a shuffle would indeed bring up a second batch of FF/immortalized crew. And personally I don't think it'd bother me that much. I would know that I'd gotten a "second spin" to double my odds, and that would probably appease me enough. Eventually it'd pay off, I'm sure — but at my current level, I certainly wouldn't expect all or even most of the second spins to bear fruit.
However, I'd just as soon see other options explored... maybe a check against your current crew which gives a higher drop percentage to crew that you don't currently own? I don't know. And honestly, I don't really expect anything to ever be done about this. I of course know that the further one gets in collecting crew, the more this is bound to happen — but that doesn't mean I'll stop wishing for some solution to the issue. As I said, I'd certainly spend more money on premium pulls if I wasn't so sure I'd get all-Honor choices so frequently.
I put forward the shuffle button idea for exactly the reason you mentioned - that doubling your odds is literally giving you twice the chances for a card you want. As I've said more than once, I don't think DB owes us any more than that. We're gambling, after all. This would be a very generous concession from their end, and it would appease a lot of people. Imagine a casino now telling you that your odds are 50% better. They're not guaranteeing you ANYTHING, but you now have more incentive to try.
Some other things I flirted with but didn't include (as I said, I'm keeping it rational.)
1 - ALL new characters go directly into the standard pack rotation after they are introduced.
2 - ALL Super Rare cards show up in the form of beholds (As opposed to just popping up.)
But again, I'm not asking for these things, just showing you that they're also ideas that were considered.
Meanwhile I want to clarify my point - after thinking it over, I think the shuffle button should be on every behold, standard. Not just the FF ones. Make it fair for everyone, not just the experienced players with huge crews. But as I said, it's a one-way trip. You click that button, there's no picking from your old three.
Why do we believe that free market principles don’t apply to buying 10X portals ?
Presumably DB understands supply and demand curves and knows a) how many are sold and b) where the optimum point is (if they don’t - hire me - I can make a lot of money for you!)
If you are at the point where your personal needs (ie. 10X Portals no longer give you what you want) then the logical position is to stop buying them.
If the player base is aging and new spenders are limited - then the market will move in the favor of buyers and I am sure we will see changes. If the player base is growing and new spenders are in the majority - then the market will move in favor of the sellers.
I have little doubt that DB is in a good space as they are continuing to add substantive changes (such as the new smirmish event) - rather than tweak the basic economy of portals which indicates money to spend.
I'm glad someone else understands where I'm coming from.
Being right doesn't make it ethical. The mechanism preys on people with addictive personalities and is akin to gambling. Gambling is heavily regulated. This is not.
Why do we believe that free market principles don’t apply to buying 10X portals ?
Presumably DB understands supply and demand curves and knows a) how many are sold and b) where the optimum point is (if they don’t - hire me - I can make a lot of money for you!)
If you are at the point where your personal needs (ie. 10X Portals no longer give you what you want) then the logical position is to stop buying them.
If the player base is aging and new spenders are limited - then the market will move in the favor of buyers and I am sure we will see changes. If the player base is growing and new spenders are in the majority - then the market will move in favor of the sellers.
I have little doubt that DB is in a good space as they are continuing to add substantive changes (such as the new smirmish event) - rather than tweak the basic economy of portals which indicates money to spend.
I'm glad someone else understands where I'm coming from.
Being right doesn't make it ethical. The mechanism preys on people with addictive personalities and is akin to gambling. Gambling is heavily regulated. This is not.
My uncle just blew $14,000 on slot machines a few days ago. It would have been equally as useful to literally burn the money in front of him, and more useful to kick him in the balls while doing so. It makes me sick to my stomach to think about all the things that could have been done with that money instead of what he did.
But in his mind, he still thinks it was worth it - he thinks he could have won.
Given that this is a card collecting game, I tend to compare it to card collecting. Every time a pack of cards is purchased, the outcome is unknown, so it's a 'gamble' that creates longer odds as you near completion of your set.
The main difference is the ability to manage your duplicate cards. Offline, you can sell or trade duplicates. In the game, the only option is dumping for honor, but the exchange rate (ie: 90:1 for a Super Rare card) is incredibly out of whack, especially when compared to offline card collecting. Yes, you may pay a premium when trading a duplicate card for a desired card of equal value, but nothing close to a 90:1 ratio.
That's why I personally think the best solution would be for DB to improve the trade-in value of all duplicate cards, making it easier to acquire a citation for the equivalent level of duplicate card you're trading in. Even a 20:1 or 50:1 ratio would be an improvement from the current 90:1 ratio for SR, without feeling like DB was being too generous.
Here's the problem. You're asking too much. As players have stated, they don't OWE us anything. We're choosing to take the risk. It's a gamble.
It's not about being 'owed', it's about DB generating money without which we have no game.
I like a gamble, but if I'm playing roulette and the only bet open to me is to place my money on '0', I'm not playing. They don't get my money too often, the odds are too low for a return.
If enough people are in that position, and take that attitude, game's bust.
My suggestion is that if DB implemented this fairly conservative change, they would increase their profit margin from increased sales AND make players a little more comfortable with taking the risk. It's WIN-WIN.
Your suggestion is fine for the short-term, but that's all it is. Short term.
There needs to be a long-term solution, and whilst mine may not be the right one, it does at least recognise that it needs to be something ongoing. DB recognise this too, that's why we got honour.
Meanwhile, from a technical standpoint, your solution is way too complicated to implement properly.
I write code for a living, and have done for two decades. I can say it's not that complicated from a position of being a dev.
It may be complicated for DB though, as we've already been informed the code base looks like someone upended a tin of alphabetti spaghetti, probably due to managerial decisions.
Having been the guy watching the idiot behind a disaster leave early in their nice car, whilst I and colleagues got to clean up their mess on unpaid overtime, DBs devs have my sympathy.
Comments
A re-roll doesn't achieve much, I know I could re-roll several times and it's be a while before a useful SR appeared from the regular portal.
My two thoughts are:
If you get a behold with 3 choices of FF cards, you can exchange for a half-price SR citation - if you've not enough honour, then fine, you're 'overdrawn' and unable to buy anything with honour until you've accrued a positive amount again - this means you have the option to get a dupe, and if you don't want one, then something else of value. If your honour is already 'overdrawn', this option isn't available.
Alternatively, you can exchange for a random early-days, lower stat 5* card. If you've got that card, or don't want it, you've at least got a greater amount of honour out of a FF behold.
Either of those would make me more likely to buy packs again.
Expected in drinking or gambling...but this is supposedly a game. A leisurely activity. I’ve never been treated so poorly by my chessboard or basketball hoop
Lol I can just imagine the hoop getting smaller with every shot you make :P
Since i would be less likely to be disappointed,
It would strongly encourage me to PAY FOR PACKS.
I don't find it to be flawed. I was only trying to bring into focus the way some players are acting when they don't receive what they want, and for what I would consider to be the wrong reasons. When you buy packs, it's not like going into a store and buying something, and then when you get home there's another model in the box. Of course, you then have the right to complain and request an exchange. However, with portal pulls, you're paying for the CHANCE to get what you want, thus, there's no traction for a complaint, or an exchange. Beholds are a nice little bonus, basically giving you another chance within the chance you purchased. It's not DB's fault that some players don't know what their buying.
Speaking of flawed arguments and since you brought it up, there are plenty of reasons why they WOULDN'T do this, the biggest of which is that even though they are a business that requires customer service (as all businesses do), their main priority is to make money. They know that they can make money from people spending on 10x packs. I can't see them agreeing to make it easier to obtain crew in a 10x pack when the behold is already a gift, as opposed to getting just a straight drop (which for the purposes of this thread would be someone you already had FF/FE).
If you think that they would even consider changing the RNG just because players want them to, now that's ludicrous my friend. If that were the case, there's no reason to have RNG to begin with. Where does it stop? Why not let players individually pick their 10 crew? Why not let players decide if they get a 3* or a 5*? Let's also remember that we're talking about 10x pulls that are different for everyone. One player's treasure is another man's trash. You're suggesting that the RNG can be improved for each individual player, dependent on their crew at the time, on each individual 10x pack, all of which are ever changing. I don't see how that is even remotely possible.
Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but before you go attacking someone else's opinion, I'd make sure you have your own ducks in a row. Oh, I'd also proofread, just sayin.
~Captain Picard ST:TNG Chain of Command
Link to my list of helpful spreadsheets, websites, threads, and help for all players!
ST:TNG Crew Addition Wish List:
Mariachi Q - Déjà Q Quote - But I feel like celebrating! - Thank You!
H.M.S. Pinafore Data - Insurrection Quote - And his fist be ever ready for a knockdown blow. - Thank You!
Rascal Picard/Guinan - Rascals Quote - I want to see my father!
Kivas Fajo - The Most Toys Quote - What a marvelous contradiction. A military pacifist!
Batai - The Inner Light Quote - This tree is our symbol. Our affirmation of life.
Irumodic Syndrome Picard - All Good Things Quote - You said it was earl grey. I'd swear it was darjeeling. - Thank You!
B-4 - Nemesis Quote - Why do you have a shiny head? - Thank You!
Zero G Worf - First Contact Quote - Assimilate this!
While I agree that there is a difference because packs are paid for, I still think that some players think that there's some expectation to get what they want, just because they paid for a pack. As I mentioned in my previous reply, when you buy a pack, you cannot have any expectations. The only think you're guaranteed on a 10x pull (which is clearly stated in the info) is 1 super rare or better. Otherwise, you're paying for the chance to "win" (get what you want). As I mentioned before, it's like playing a slot machine. We cannot complain about not getting something that is not guaranteed. Let's also remember that the behold is something extra. They don't have to give them to us at all.
As for the honor, I agree that there seems to be a disparity as to the perceived value of the cards in relation to the amount of honor we receive for them, but just remember that there was a time when honor did not exist. We got nothing for airlocking crew. I just think that some players should be happier for the things that DB offers us (ex. beholds and honor), even if they're not exactly what we want.
~Captain Picard ST:TNG Chain of Command
Link to my list of helpful spreadsheets, websites, threads, and help for all players!
ST:TNG Crew Addition Wish List:
Mariachi Q - Déjà Q Quote - But I feel like celebrating! - Thank You!
H.M.S. Pinafore Data - Insurrection Quote - And his fist be ever ready for a knockdown blow. - Thank You!
Rascal Picard/Guinan - Rascals Quote - I want to see my father!
Kivas Fajo - The Most Toys Quote - What a marvelous contradiction. A military pacifist!
Batai - The Inner Light Quote - This tree is our symbol. Our affirmation of life.
Irumodic Syndrome Picard - All Good Things Quote - You said it was earl grey. I'd swear it was darjeeling. - Thank You!
B-4 - Nemesis Quote - Why do you have a shiny head? - Thank You!
Zero G Worf - First Contact Quote - Assimilate this!
Actually that's not quite true. We did receive things for discards, but it was trainers and credits.
Maybe a compromise would be to restore the credits given on a discard.
Would help with replications and thus immortalizing FF SRs.... (shrug) just looking for an idea.
Check out our website to find out more:
https://wiki.tenforwardloungers.com/
I'm at Captain Level 66 myself Matt, and this has also been my experience for many months now. I can't recall the last time I actually got a Legendary Behold, but it was much earlier this year. I've opened plenty of portal packs since the beginning of the year too and they've yielded some Super Rare characters occasionally that I did need, but 90% of the time I am only getting Honor Points or fuel for the Replicator due to the frequency of Super Rare or Rare FF/FE & Immortalized characters appearing and the plethora of useless ship schematics.
It's quite annoying...and it's gotten to the point where I've decided I won't spend any more money on the game other than the $4 monthly card. I hadn't spent any money on the game for several months, but early on in June I did purchase some additional dilithium crystals and also bought several of the weekly portal pack offers, including a few of the monthly event portal pack offers. I even indulged in one of the 'Double The Crew' offers after picking up Bell Riots Bashir as part of the event rewards. But I can no longer justify these expenditures...the drops of needed Super Rare or Legendary characters in the portal packs just aren't there for me. It's throwing money away at this point and just isn't a good investment.
Further disappointment along the same lines comes within the Voyages, where if I do get a 4* character I have maybe a 1 out of 10 chance that it'll be someone I can fuse to an existing character.
I agree with the others who believe that the idea to improve upon the present situation is an acceptable and reasonable measure. And it doesn't strike me as being something difficult for DB to implement. Adding a chance at increasing the selection to seeing an additional 3 characters would provide players with an increased opportunity to potentially acquire someone they could actually use.
You should have the expectation of getting something useful when you've paid cash for it though.
Now given this is partially a card collecting game, for some that means either a new card or something that will help FF an existing card, for other that means a card they can add to their crew even if they've already got them FF one or more times.
And the important bit, for DB, is that players keep forking over cash. By having a self-limiting system, you end up being dangerously reliant on whales and new players willing to spend.
They keep churning out 5* cards to keep the whales spending, but what happens when they say 'enough'?
The current model is broken for DB, now I've no suggestions for them, but in their boots I'd be looking at how other games are tackling this issue and weighing up options.
If you want change, you will have to stop buying the packs.
But the change could be the end of the game,
Here's the problem. You're asking too much. As players have stated, they don't OWE us anything. We're choosing to take the risk. It's a gamble.
My suggestion is that if DB implemented this fairly conservative change, they would increase their profit margin from increased sales AND make players a little more comfortable with taking the risk. It's WIN-WIN.
Meanwhile, from a technical standpoint, your solution is way too complicated to implement properly.
As much as I would like this scenario, I can't agree.
Remember McDonald's Monopoly? When I was young and uninformed as to how these promotions work, I remember collecting 2 out of 3 stickers for everything in the prize book with the help of my parents' money, including the large prizes, such as the cash prize and the car. We continued to collect and win some of the smaller prizes like free fries and burgers until all that was left were the large prizes. The next time we went to McDonald's, I expected to be able to win one of these prizes because the only pieces I had missing were the ones for the large prizes. Of course, this didn't happen, and I just ended up with duplicates of the stickers that I already had.
I learned a valuable lesson that day which still applies in our fun game here today. McDonald's didn't owe us anything because they hadn't guaranteed us anything. Even though we paid cash we still were only playing for the chance to win something. I also learned that just because I needed a 3rd sticker to win a car, didn't mean that I was going to get it. What did I do with the duplicate stickers? Either saved them for another Monopoly board to begin again, or just threw them away. You know what I didn't do? Complain to McDonald's that I didn't win anything, and demand that they change their policies regarding the game so that it would be easier for me to win, because I had paid cash.
This is all with no McDonald's "beholds," and also with no compensation for the stickers that were duplicates. We get both of these things. Now like I said, of course I would like have a better chance to get what I want. Who wouldn't? I'm just saying that DB has no reason to change their policies, and I don't blame them one bit.
~Captain Picard ST:TNG Chain of Command
Link to my list of helpful spreadsheets, websites, threads, and help for all players!
ST:TNG Crew Addition Wish List:
Mariachi Q - Déjà Q Quote - But I feel like celebrating! - Thank You!
H.M.S. Pinafore Data - Insurrection Quote - And his fist be ever ready for a knockdown blow. - Thank You!
Rascal Picard/Guinan - Rascals Quote - I want to see my father!
Kivas Fajo - The Most Toys Quote - What a marvelous contradiction. A military pacifist!
Batai - The Inner Light Quote - This tree is our symbol. Our affirmation of life.
Irumodic Syndrome Picard - All Good Things Quote - You said it was earl grey. I'd swear it was darjeeling. - Thank You!
B-4 - Nemesis Quote - Why do you have a shiny head? - Thank You!
Zero G Worf - First Contact Quote - Assimilate this!
Monthly card players have no such issues... Maybe it's a sign some people just spend too much for their own good and inevitably the average yield from pulls decreases.
Presumably DB understands supply and demand curves and knows a) how many are sold and b) where the optimum point is (if they don’t - hire me - I can make a lot of money for you!)
If you are at the point where your personal needs (ie. 10X Portals no longer give you what you want) then the logical position is to stop buying them.
If the player base is aging and new spenders are limited - then the market will move in the favor of buyers and I am sure we will see changes. If the player base is growing and new spenders are in the majority - then the market will move in favor of the sellers.
I have little doubt that DB is in a good space as they are continuing to add substantive changes (such as the new smirmish event) - rather than tweak the basic economy of portals which indicates money to spend.
I'm glad someone else understands where I'm coming from.
~Captain Picard ST:TNG Chain of Command
Link to my list of helpful spreadsheets, websites, threads, and help for all players!
ST:TNG Crew Addition Wish List:
Mariachi Q - Déjà Q Quote - But I feel like celebrating! - Thank You!
H.M.S. Pinafore Data - Insurrection Quote - And his fist be ever ready for a knockdown blow. - Thank You!
Rascal Picard/Guinan - Rascals Quote - I want to see my father!
Kivas Fajo - The Most Toys Quote - What a marvelous contradiction. A military pacifist!
Batai - The Inner Light Quote - This tree is our symbol. Our affirmation of life.
Irumodic Syndrome Picard - All Good Things Quote - You said it was earl grey. I'd swear it was darjeeling. - Thank You!
B-4 - Nemesis Quote - Why do you have a shiny head? - Thank You!
Zero G Worf - First Contact Quote - Assimilate this!
I have a question for everyone advocating for the shuffle. What happens if we get the shuffle, you get a FF behold, you press the shuffle button, and then receive another FF behold? If one FF behold produces this much rage, I can only imagine what two of them would do. What's next? Where do we stop? 2 shuffles? 5? 10? Citation (which I've already mentioned is WAY overcompensating)? Pick your own behold? Free 5*?
In the immortal words of Captain Picard in Insurrection when discussing the movement of the Ba'Ku:
"How many people does it take, Admiral, before it becomes wrong? Hmm? A thousand, fifty thousand, a million? How many people does it take, Admiral?"
Let's remember that what we ask for is a slippery slope. Oh, and @Typhon Loop if the only joy you get, and your reason for staying around is pulling 10x packs, it may be time to consider the forum manifesto retirement.
~Captain Picard ST:TNG Chain of Command
Link to my list of helpful spreadsheets, websites, threads, and help for all players!
ST:TNG Crew Addition Wish List:
Mariachi Q - Déjà Q Quote - But I feel like celebrating! - Thank You!
H.M.S. Pinafore Data - Insurrection Quote - And his fist be ever ready for a knockdown blow. - Thank You!
Rascal Picard/Guinan - Rascals Quote - I want to see my father!
Kivas Fajo - The Most Toys Quote - What a marvelous contradiction. A military pacifist!
Batai - The Inner Light Quote - This tree is our symbol. Our affirmation of life.
Irumodic Syndrome Picard - All Good Things Quote - You said it was earl grey. I'd swear it was darjeeling. - Thank You!
B-4 - Nemesis Quote - Why do you have a shiny head? - Thank You!
Zero G Worf - First Contact Quote - Assimilate this!
As we repeatedly spend money on something we should expect to get less value for that money. But this is an internal equation, you should be getting diminishing marginal utility from additional purchases.
Most businesses recognise this and provide *extra* value to large purchasers. It seems crazy to me to have such strong disincentives for people to spend extra money.
From a gameplay perspective I'm really not gaining a huge amount anymore. Dancing Chekov and Romulan Picard were very similar for example. In a business where the marginal cost of creating 1 Dancing Chekov is close to zero, you'd think they'd offer Romulan Picard owners an additional incentive to purchase Dancing Chekov. They could do this through gameplay, by having similar characters provide bonuses to each other etc.
My point is that there's probably a lot of us right now that have available budget and still play the game, but we need to be further incentivised to part with our cash, instead we are being disincentivised. Seems like it's just bad business.
Those of you that assume that DB knows what it's doing could be wrong. So far they are 1 for 3 on big decisions. Lots of businesses fail through bad management and poor focus on what matters. And what matters is keeping your customers spending money, not punishing them for doing so.
While I can't say I'm necessarily "advocating" for a "shuffle" button (and don't even know whether or not it would work in practice), I do think it's one possible solution to consider.
As far as your question, I'll bite: I fully expect that a good deal of the time, such a shuffle would indeed bring up a second batch of FF/immortalized crew. And personally I don't think it'd bother me that much. I would know that I'd gotten a "second spin" to double my odds, and that would probably appease me enough. Eventually it'd pay off, I'm sure — but at my current level, I certainly wouldn't expect all or even most of the second spins to bear fruit.
However, I'd just as soon see other options explored... maybe a check against your current crew which gives a higher drop percentage to crew that you don't currently own? I don't know. And honestly, I don't really expect anything to ever be done about this. I of course know that the further one gets in collecting crew, the more this is bound to happen — but that doesn't mean I'll stop wishing for some solution to the issue. As I said, I'd certainly spend more money on premium pulls if I wasn't so sure I'd get all-Honor choices so frequently.
Could you please continue the petty bickering? I find it most intriguing.
~ Data, ST:TNG "Haven"
To be honest, I'd probably suggest DB gives some kind of special legendary pack for VIP 20 players or something. As for myself, a low spender, I'm concentrating on the super-rares, for fun. I just don't have the funds to spend big on the golds.
I'd be very surprised if I finished this game with all the purples, but I'm half-way there for immirtalizing them which is quite a surprise for me. Give me another year, and I might be pissed off because Dolim hasn't dropped for six months, but for now I'm happy enough.
Check out our website to find out more:
https://wiki.tenforwardloungers.com/
I put forward the shuffle button idea for exactly the reason you mentioned - that doubling your odds is literally giving you twice the chances for a card you want. As I've said more than once, I don't think DB owes us any more than that. We're gambling, after all. This would be a very generous concession from their end, and it would appease a lot of people. Imagine a casino now telling you that your odds are 50% better. They're not guaranteeing you ANYTHING, but you now have more incentive to try.
Some other things I flirted with but didn't include (as I said, I'm keeping it rational.)
1 - ALL new characters go directly into the standard pack rotation after they are introduced.
2 - ALL Super Rare cards show up in the form of beholds (As opposed to just popping up.)
But again, I'm not asking for these things, just showing you that they're also ideas that were considered.
Meanwhile I want to clarify my point - after thinking it over, I think the shuffle button should be on every behold, standard. Not just the FF ones. Make it fair for everyone, not just the experienced players with huge crews. But as I said, it's a one-way trip. You click that button, there's no picking from your old three.
Second Star to the Right - Join Today!
Most reasonable folks that are asking for change aren't asking for it to be avoided, but minimized a bit.
Being right doesn't make it ethical. The mechanism preys on people with addictive personalities and is akin to gambling. Gambling is heavily regulated. This is not.
My uncle just blew $14,000 on slot machines a few days ago. It would have been equally as useful to literally burn the money in front of him, and more useful to kick him in the balls while doing so. It makes me sick to my stomach to think about all the things that could have been done with that money instead of what he did.
But in his mind, he still thinks it was worth it - he thinks he could have won.
The main difference is the ability to manage your duplicate cards. Offline, you can sell or trade duplicates. In the game, the only option is dumping for honor, but the exchange rate (ie: 90:1 for a Super Rare card) is incredibly out of whack, especially when compared to offline card collecting. Yes, you may pay a premium when trading a duplicate card for a desired card of equal value, but nothing close to a 90:1 ratio.
That's why I personally think the best solution would be for DB to improve the trade-in value of all duplicate cards, making it easier to acquire a citation for the equivalent level of duplicate card you're trading in. Even a 20:1 or 50:1 ratio would be an improvement from the current 90:1 ratio for SR, without feeling like DB was being too generous.
It's not about being 'owed', it's about DB generating money without which we have no game.
I like a gamble, but if I'm playing roulette and the only bet open to me is to place my money on '0', I'm not playing. They don't get my money too often, the odds are too low for a return.
If enough people are in that position, and take that attitude, game's bust.
Your suggestion is fine for the short-term, but that's all it is. Short term.
There needs to be a long-term solution, and whilst mine may not be the right one, it does at least recognise that it needs to be something ongoing. DB recognise this too, that's why we got honour.
I write code for a living, and have done for two decades. I can say it's not that complicated from a position of being a dev.
It may be complicated for DB though, as we've already been informed the code base looks like someone upended a tin of alphabetti spaghetti, probably due to managerial decisions.
Having been the guy watching the idiot behind a disaster leave early in their nice car, whilst I and colleagues got to clean up their mess on unpaid overtime, DBs devs have my sympathy.