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DB's blockchain cooperation with Forte

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    ~peregrine~~peregrine~ ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2019
    I feel like this topic does not get a lot of attention in the "Make it so" section so please allow me to quote @~peregrine~'s post here.
    For everyone who has suggested in-game trading of cards, here are a couple of press releases you might want to read:

    https://www.disruptorbeam.com/blog/2019/10/28/more-power-to-the-players-disruptor-beam-and-forte-look-to-the-future

    https://medium.com/forte-labs-inc/disruptor-beam-44c3b8a2724c

    🖖

    What do you think of it?

    What I think, @[Mirror] Sanoa , is that the reason I posted the links to the articles in that thread under “Make It So” in the first place was because that seemed like the most logical place, given the articles’ (albeit limited) content regarding the topic of in-game trading.

    In the second place, it was also to avoid some of what has since transpired anyway here in your thread, to which my name is now attached (quoted) in the OP. ::heavy sigh:: One would think I ought to know by now that no good deed goes unpunished in these Forums. Whatever, moving on....

    I was not attempting to evade attention by putting the links in “Make It So”. Rather, I was attempting to add what I considered relevant information in furtherance of informed discussion, in a place where the topic had previously been mentioned. I thought that was the point of having sub-Forums devoted to particular categories and/or topics, “wild speculation” included and “too early for details” notwithstanding.

    Peace, y’all. Be cool. 🖖
    "In the short run, the game defines the players. But in the long run, it's us players who define the game." — Nicky Case, The Evolution of Trust
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    I'll gladly trade a Grilka or Shinzon for a First Officer Burnham or Gary Seven.
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    MiT SanoaMiT Sanoa ✭✭✭✭✭
    @~peregrine~ I am sorry.
    Wir, die Mirror Tribbles [MiT] haben freie Plätze zu vergeben. Kein Zwang und kein Stress, dafür aber Spaß, Discord und eine nette, hilfsbereite Gemeinschaft, incl. voll ausgebauter Starbase und täglich 700 ISM.
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    VesmerVesmer ✭✭✭
    Blockchain is all about resistance to modification of the data, not about traceability per se. I can't see how blockchain would help to identify if it's an alt account or a regular account etc.

    Maybe they should add machine learning for that :D
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    MiT SanoaMiT Sanoa ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2019
    Vesmer wrote: »
    Blockchain is all about resistance to modification of the data, not about traceability per se. I can't see how blockchain would help to identify if it's an alt account or a regular account etc.

    Maybe they should add machine learning for that :D

    It is both. You can trace back each coin over every hand it went through to its origin in a blockchain. Of course you cannot identify alts like this but I never said you could?! What you can do is check the blockchain for patterns to identify betrayers and chinafarmers. This is a machine learning or AI topic but so what? That is high tech but DB is working on a high sophisticated game platform so it is not absurd to think they would work on that too. All data based industries currently heavily invest into AI and/or machine learning.

    And @Ren~ is right, this is all about a marketplace and likely not barter. I doubt that Dil will be the currency of choice, rather a new fantasy currency or... well... XRP - that is what Ripple aims for with the funding I would expect.

    Wir, die Mirror Tribbles [MiT] haben freie Plätze zu vergeben. Kein Zwang und kein Stress, dafür aber Spaß, Discord und eine nette, hilfsbereite Gemeinschaft, incl. voll ausgebauter Starbase und täglich 700 ISM.
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    edited October 2019
    Wouldn't fix all the issues with such a system but add a lvl requirement for certain tiers of trades and acquisitions. Maybe trading gold crew requires lvl 50 or above, purple crew lvl 30, and so on down the line. If someone were to try and use alts to trade the event freebie 10x pull crew they aquired, they'd need to put work into their account and couldn't just collect stuff from a lvl 1 account and be done if they wanted to trade gold's and purples which is where I'm sure the bulk of the trading will be taking place in those 2 tiers. Granted people would probably just rank up alts to lvl 50 with the above proposed system and then just aquire the freebie pulls but it would maybe discourage people from doing such unless they had a lot of free time on their hands plus people may start 2nd accounts just for that and then maybe get into having a 2nd or 3rd accounts and start actually funneling money to them which would mean more money for DB 🤷 IDK but like the post from DB said they would like player feedback so I'll probably have to copy and oast this message when the feedback and ideas thread is created in the near future... But granted this system is going to be faaaar from perfect. Also, now this is probably a dumb idea but maybe the progression through the storyline could somehow be a ranking system for trading and what you can and can't trade? I know that it took me a long time and work and hunting down crew to finish the story line and 3 star all the missions, and let's be honest... Newer players most likely won't be using this new trading system nearly as much as the older veteran players with their ff gold and purple beholds. Maybe make it so finishing all the missions grants access to purple trading and 3 starring all missions grants access to gold trading. It would certainly make 3 starring all the missions a priority for players which again required specific crew which would mean DB gets more money. Of course once a new episode would be released all access to gold trading would be lost so maybe 10 or 20 day waiting period to deauthorize people that haven't 3 starred the new missions from the gold trading tier, or perhaps make the requirement for gold trading 3 starring all missions up to episode 10 or 9. Just a few ideas. Didn't plan to make this reply so long but whoever reads all the way to the end I applaud you 👏
    Edit: had another idea, maybe have a trading membership fee. To have unlimited trades on gold crew and below for a month, cost 10 dollars, purple or below 5 dollars. I'm sure this idea would upset the F2P folks but I figured this would also not be a bad idea for reducing the abuse of this new trading system. And maybe also have a requirement that characters not be traded for less than a certain value. Man I didn't know I had so many ideas till I started typing 😄!
    Edit 2: also since we now have campaigns which give players Dil even without paying, perhaps a dilithium fee for every trade?
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    Princess TristaPrincess Trista ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2019
    Shan wrote: »
    Jumping in!
    Let's avoid too many speculations. I can try and suggest this, right? ;)

    It is still very new, and too early for any details yet.
    Rest assured that if and when the time comes, we will provide more information - and your feedback will be appreciated at that time :)

    Well, if it is being talked about, then the absolute earliest if it is approved is what, three years or more giving DBs track record of doing things. Most of us probably wont be here if it happens so i agree with avoiding too many speculations.
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    SSR BarkleySSR Barkley ✭✭✭✭✭
    I would not expect blockchain to have any sizeable impact on STT, given the shaky back-end the game was built on in the first place. they "say" they can weave it into existing games, but I'm not seeing it with STT. from what I know about block-chain, the dna of the game would have to be compatible, and i'm not seeing a realistic path here.

    i think it's a big nothingburger for STT
    /SSR/ Barkley - semi retired
    Second Star to the Right - Join Today!
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    I'd love to have a fleet trading post or the ability to gift things to specific players. CS has been helping with that on the DL for years -- someone I know got 1,000 gold trainers gifted to them when they were just starting out -- so it'd be nice to formalize.
    Proud Former Admiral of eXodus
    Proud Former Officer of The Gluten Empire

    Retired 12-14-20. So long, and thanks for all the cat pics!
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    V.V. ✭✭✭✭
    It is a terrible terrible idea. This game is particularly vulnerable to abuse since collecting cards represents about 99% of the entire game.
    Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, is all ancient history. Then, before you can blink an eye, suddenly, it threatens to start all over again."
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    I still just fundamentally hate how much waste this game tends to generate on an individual level. For example, I'm going to buy the $10 campaign track but I have Gloria FF already. I'm not going to build a dupe, so I'll be airlocking 4 copies. I don't need the honor. I'd rather be able to send those out to 4 friends or people in the fleet so they don't have to burn a cite.

    It would make me more inclined to pull packs or spend more again if I felt it was at least somewhat useful. Currently, I'm feeling very meh about the game (again). The 7.2 downupgrade didn't help.
    Proud Former Admiral of eXodus
    Proud Former Officer of The Gluten Empire

    Retired 12-14-20. So long, and thanks for all the cat pics!
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    SSR BarkleySSR Barkley ✭✭✭✭✭
    while gifting items to friends/fleet members seems like a noble gesture, i don't like the idea of people being influenced to fleets where $$$/gifts is a motivating factor.
    /SSR/ Barkley - semi retired
    Second Star to the Right - Join Today!
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    After 3 years of playing this game, I would welcome this type of card trading. For the past year, I've been thinking a lot about what would motivate to keep me playing the game. The thought of all the time I've invested in STT makes me cringe, because there is no tangible benefit that I can show in the real world. Yet, I keep playing, because I don't want to waste all the previous time that I've spent in the game.

    But, if I could sell my cards in a digital marketplace, and cash out of Star Trek Timelines, I would do it. The benefit is that I can let others take control over my hard earned characters, in exchange for a little bit of cash on the side to encourage me to walk away. So, just like the people who sell CS:GO skins and Cryptokitties, I could sell my 5* Borg Queen, my Level 10 ISS Enterprise, and my spare 5* Armus to the highest bidder. I can show something tangible for the results of my efforts in playing.

    It's an intriguing proposition that I would love to explore!
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    Ren~Ren~ ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2019
    I doubt that Dil will be the currency of choice, rather a new fantasy currency or... well... XRP - that is what Ripple aims for with the funding I would expect.

    Actually you could be right, it would make the most sense. Depending on how they implement it though it could be the most boring (only trading cards from packs) or put some life back into the game (trading cites, event rewards, allowing IAP with their monopoly money).

    I have to say I'm actually looking forward to something for the first time in this game in spite of all the comically tragic posts about trading being somehow the end of it as these completely ignore the thousands of successful examples. Trading often proves to be a robust system that alleviates the many frustrations of RNG with little downsides when implemented properly, so I hope the devs fully integrate it to all of the existing systems so that it doesn't end up being the most conservative and uninteresting implementation of a marketplace.
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    Banjo1012Banjo1012 ✭✭✭✭✭
    while gifting items to friends/fleet members seems like a noble gesture, i don't like the idea of people being influenced to fleets where $$$/gifts is a motivating factor.

    That’s a great point

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    V.V. ✭✭✭✭
    Ren~ wrote: »
    I doubt that Dil will be the currency of choice, rather a new fantasy currency or... well... XRP - that is what Ripple aims for with the funding I would expect.

    Actually you could be right, it would make the most sense. Depending on how they implement it though it could be the most boring (only trading cards from packs) or put some life back into the game (trading cites, event rewards, allowing IAP with their monopoly money).

    I have to say I'm actually looking forward to something for the first time in this game in spite of all the comically tragic posts about trading being somehow the end of it as these completely ignore the thousands of successful examples. Trading often proves to be a robust system that alleviates the many frustrations of RNG with little downsides when implemented properly, so I hope the devs fully integrate it to all of the existing systems so that it doesn't end up being the most conservative and uninteresting implementation of a marketplace.

    It's an interesting idea to create a full marketplace. But what would be the currency? credits? If so there should be a credit's/dilithium exchange. Basically a full STO marketplace. I would be ok with that.

    What I don't care for is the guy making 500 accounts or the alms to the peasants.
    Jean-Luc Picard: "We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, is all ancient history. Then, before you can blink an eye, suddenly, it threatens to start all over again."
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    Wait, you mean they might be looking at implementing a solution to the 1/5 surplus most people who play this game eventually end up with?

    Trading is ALWAYS problematic, but it adds a dimension this game could benefit from.
    Captain Bubble Bobble
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    Travis S McClainTravis S McClain ✭✭✭✭✭
    Playing off @(CSF) Jesus Is Lord [••••]'s idea of tying trading to levels, what if it was tied to VIP instead of captain level? VIP 14 players have been wanting something more to show for the small fortune they sank into the game back when that was supposed to come with more bells and whistles. Let that be one of them, and scale down for all the lower VIP levels. Maybe make it possible to get a trade token somehow, like in the Gauntlet or Honor Hall so VIP 0 players aren't totally shut out.
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    edited November 2019
    Playing off @(CSF) Jesus Is Lord [••••]'s idea of tying trading to levels, what if it was tied to VIP instead of captain level? VIP 14 players have been wanting something more to show for the small fortune they sank into the game back when that was supposed to come with more bells and whistles. Let that be one of them, and scale down for all the lower VIP levels. Maybe make it possible to get a trade token somehow, like in the Gauntlet or Honor Hall so VIP 0 players aren't totally shut out.

    That is also a really good idea!!
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    NoneNone ✭✭✭
    If I was setting up trading in this game I would make it kinda like the faction stores that are in the game right now.

    I would make it so that you could put one or two cards up for trade/sell. Maybe more based on VIP level to make that a little better. Maybe make cards a fixed price, whether with a new currency or existing one is TBD. Maybe different cards could have different values, like with a price guide that could be determined somehow. Maybe people could set their own price and let the market balance it out. I could go either way.

    I would also make it so that like the faction store, you get 10-12 random people’s trades that you can buy, that resets every day, with maybe an option to refresh the selection, the number possibly based on VIP level or not.

    This way, people can’t just set up farming accounts and just funnel everything to one account. They could still try and get rid of duplicate cards or find one that they happen to be missing. The downside is that you couldn’t just help a friend or fleetmate out.

    I don’t know, but that’s one of the few ways I could see them doing it and not completely breaking the game.
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    MiT SanoaMiT Sanoa ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2019
    None wrote: »
    If I was setting up trading in this game I would make it kinda like the faction stores that are in the game right now.

    I would make it so that you could put one or two cards up for trade/sell. Maybe more based on VIP level to make that a little better. Maybe make cards a fixed price, whether with a new currency or existing one is TBD. Maybe different cards could have different values, like with a price guide that could be determined somehow. Maybe people could set their own price and let the market balance it out. I could go either way.

    I would also make it so that like the faction store, you get 10-12 random people’s trades that you can buy, that resets every day, with maybe an option to refresh the selection, the number possibly based on VIP level or not.

    This way, people can’t just set up farming accounts and just funnel everything to one account. They could still try and get rid of duplicate cards or find one that they happen to be missing. The downside is that you couldn’t just help a friend or fleetmate out.

    I don’t know, but that’s one of the few ways I could see them doing it and not completely breaking the game.

    The "like faction store" idea is brilliant as it would limit the selection which would prevent the devaluation of single cards and packs. You still needed luck to get something useful.

    Just while I think of it it would need to refill with a new offer if someone else bought a character first which was offered to several players. Otherwise it would be like the daily sales on Aliexpress where people not buying in the first 10 seconds after reset have no available offers any more for the whole day.

    Binding a more varied selection of sales options and offers to VIP sounds very reasonable too. 👍
    Wir, die Mirror Tribbles [MiT] haben freie Plätze zu vergeben. Kein Zwang und kein Stress, dafür aber Spaß, Discord und eine nette, hilfsbereite Gemeinschaft, incl. voll ausgebauter Starbase und täglich 700 ISM.
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    First i would like to echo the opinion that Other sections of the forums such as “make it so” for example dont get enough attention. Most ppl browse the bridge, engineering, and starfleet coms. Unless you have 4 hours to spare other sections go ignored.

    This is a complicated subject with many opinions that differ. I can see the value in all thoughts.
    I had suggested a long time ago to add a “re-assignment room” to the starbase. After the individual re-enlist option expires, the airlocked crew would then go into the re-assignment room including every airlocked card from the 50 fleet members. Each card would also have a time limit from entry into “re-assignment room” to be purchased from other fleet members with a slightly higher honor cost than what is earned for dismissal.

    I felt this may be a decent compromise to an all out card exchange program. It would limit the exchanges to members in a fleet.

    My idea was placed in “make it so” and got a few positive responses but did not have much of an audience.

    Interesting. I like this idea. With a little forethought, fleet members could insure that other members who needed a particular card would have a chance at it by announcing in chat crew being dismissed. However, the idea of scrolling thru the tons of 2 and 3*s with out a sort feature would be daunting. Make sure it's sort able.
    "Never teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig" Lazarus Long, Time Enough for Love, R.A. Heinlein
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    What if we could only trade for copies of cards we already have, a la "Go Fish"?
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    Ren~Ren~ ✭✭✭✭✭
    Why are you all trying to make this more complicated than an insurance policy? I don't get it. The simplest design is often the best. Have card, put it on sale for coins, get coins, buy other cards. Done.
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    MiT SanoaMiT Sanoa ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2019
    Ren~ wrote: »
    Why are you all trying to make this more complicated than an insurance policy? I don't get it. The simplest design is often the best. Have card, put it on sale for coins, get coins, buy other cards. Done.

    Well, there would be few incentive to still buy packs for other people than whales if any card was available basically at any time comparably cheap. We can assume that a Shinzon would equal like less than 0.10 dollar while Gary Seven would maybe rank around a few hundred (at least as long as he was no 10 dollar straight purchase at some point), not to speak of the value of purples. Just think of the prices for Magic (or any other CCG) uncommons on the market vs. the cost to hunt a specific one in packs...

    Would I have hunted a 4th star for Fugitive Burnham through 5 more 390 dil packs if she would have been available for a few cent on the market? Unlikely. ;)

    So limiting the quantity of cards to be sold per day (or week or whatever) as well as the quantity of possible purchases really makes sense for DB, as does some sort of binding the available quantities to VIP levels. Invest first, trade later!
    Interesting. I like this idea. With a little forethought, fleet members could insure that other members who needed a particular card would have a chance at it by announcing in chat crew being dismissed. However, the idea of scrolling thru the tons of 2 and 3*s with out a sort feature would be daunting. Make sure it's sort able.

    Enabling tades within a fleet I would not like to see at all as this would just be a different kind of barter which again brought up all the fears with alts as well as more rivalty among fleets for have-it-all people to join theirs. And maybe it would even give unwelcome incentive to remove newer players from the fleet to make space for "providers".

    Anonymity at trades is key to make this work for me.
    Wir, die Mirror Tribbles [MiT] haben freie Plätze zu vergeben. Kein Zwang und kein Stress, dafür aber Spaß, Discord und eine nette, hilfsbereite Gemeinschaft, incl. voll ausgebauter Starbase und täglich 700 ISM.
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    Ren~Ren~ ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ren~ wrote: »
    Why are you all trying to make this more complicated than an insurance policy? I don't get it. The simplest design is often the best. Have card, put it on sale for coins, get coins, buy other cards. Done.

    Well, there would be few incentive to still buy packs for other people than whales if any card was available basically at any time comparably cheap. We can assume that a Shinzon would equal like less than 0.10 dollar while Gary Seven would maybe rank around a few hundred (at least as long as he was no 10 dollar straight purchase at some point), not to speak of the value of purples. Just think of the prices for Magic (or any other CCG) uncommons on the market vs. the cost to hunt a specific one in packs...

    Would I have hunted a 4th star for Fugitive Burnham through 5 more 390 dil packs if she would have been available for a few cent on the market? Unlikely. ;)

    So limiting the quantity of cards to be sold per day (or week or whatever) as well as the quantity of possible purchases really makes sense for DB, as does some sort of binding the available quantities to VIP levels. Invest first, trade later!

    I think you're dramatically underestimating the price of good crew. Bad one will sell for pennies and that's fine, I don't think DB should care about that, but the good stuff will likely be very expensive, even with little restrictions.
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    MiT SanoaMiT Sanoa ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2019
    Ren~ wrote: »
    I think you're dramatically underestimating the price of good crew. Bad one will sell for pennies and that's fine, I don't think DB should care about that, but the good stuff will likely be very expensive, even with little restrictions.

    So what would you think a Gary Seven would cost then? Thousands of dollar? I doubt that there are enough people willing to pay that much to keep the prices that high for long. For real (physical) cards the only way to increase their value is a) deck combinations are discovered where the card is a must-have (irrelevant for STT) or b) they go out of print (currently irrelevant as well). So prices would inevitably fall over time for existing cards and only the new legendaries were expensive (if they were good).

    In an entirely open markt SRs would sell for pennies for sure.

    Overall many game requirements for a free market to work over time do not apply to STT so some regulation will be inevitable.

    /edit: The only thing that could help prices from falling beyond a certain point is if the honor system remained unchanged. 550 Shinzon honor for a few pennies would be overly tempting, so maybe the value of a citation translated to all sorts of rarities could be the base price for cards. Still this is no very tempting business case for DB I assume.

    Always put yourself into DB's position and ask yourself "What's in it for me", also considering the effort of implementation. If the answer is unsatisfying you can assume that it will never happen.
    Wir, die Mirror Tribbles [MiT] haben freie Plätze zu vergeben. Kein Zwang und kein Stress, dafür aber Spaß, Discord und eine nette, hilfsbereite Gemeinschaft, incl. voll ausgebauter Starbase und täglich 700 ISM.
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