Sarina Douglas should have the [Federation] trait.
Quoth Memory Alpha:
In 2360, Douglas was introduced to other genetically-engineered Humans Jack, Patrick and Lauren at a Federation Institute for special needs individuals unable to function in normal society.
Sarina Douglas should have the [Federation] trait.
Quoth Memory Alpha:
In 2360, Douglas was introduced to other genetically-engineered Humans Jack, Patrick and Lauren at a Federation Institute for special needs individuals unable to function in normal society.
True, I'll add it. I thought she already had it.
Admiral of the Haus of GaghGagh, Starbase level 94, we are not accepting members at this time.
Captain of the voyage vessels: Queen of Bashir, Landsknecht, and Sunspear, the first luxury starship cruiseliners.
Amenities include wifi, fully-functioning holodecks, a full-service bar, 3 party decks, a Trill spa, and a business centre.
Fun fact: The ships are propelled by bouncy castle technology.
The Prophet (Mirror Sarek) has the Terran Rebellion trait, but he's really part of the anti-Terran rebellion (though I'm not sure they called it anything at all). The Terran Rebellion was made up of Terrans -- like Smiley O'Brien and Mirror Bashir -- rebelling against the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance. The Prophet was part of Voq's rebellion against the Terran Empire.
So are you saying some traits should be added, or removed?
I'm thinking a good way to talk about trait additions/deletions in this thread in the future is if everyone wanting to introduce the idea of an addition/deletion could preface their comment to the thread with "Trait: Addition" or "Trait: Deletion" or even "Trait: Change" as the top line, then go into regular sentences below that. And maybe put any discussed traits in brackets. That way I can organize what needs to go where in the list without guessing or asking for clarification.
Well, I'm not sure what the new trait should be, so was trying to start a conversation. We would have to create one.
Character: The Prophet (Mirror Sarek)
Trait Deletion: Terran Rebellion
Trait Addition: Anti-Terran Rebellion/Alliance? I don't think the organization Voq was leading ever got named in the episode.
The Prophet (Mirror Sarek) has the Terran Rebellion trait, but he's really part of the anti-Terran rebellion (though I'm not sure they called it anything at all). The Terran Rebellion was made up of Terrans -- like Smiley O'Brien and Mirror Bashir -- rebelling against the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance. The Prophet was part of Voq's rebellion against the Terran Empire.
So are you saying some traits should be added, or removed?
I'm thinking a good way to talk about trait additions/deletions in this thread in the future is if everyone wanting to introduce the idea of an addition/deletion could preface their comment to the thread with "Trait: Addition" or "Trait: Deletion" or even "Trait: Change" as the top line, then go into regular sentences below that. And maybe put any discussed traits in brackets. That way I can organize what needs to go where in the list without guessing or asking for clarification.
Well, I'm not sure what the new trait should be, so was trying to start a conversation. We would have to create one.
Character: The Prophet (Mirror Sarek)
Trait Deletion: Terran Rebellion
Trait Addition: Anti-Terran Rebellion/Alliance? I don't think the organization Voq was leading ever got named in the episode.
In the main forum, a suggestion was made to ad the trade "Rebel" this way we don't have to really worry about which freaking rebellion a given character is in.
The Prophet (Mirror Sarek) has the Terran Rebellion trait, but he's really part of the anti-Terran rebellion (though I'm not sure they called it anything at all). The Terran Rebellion was made up of Terrans -- like Smiley O'Brien and Mirror Bashir -- rebelling against the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance. The Prophet was part of Voq's rebellion against the Terran Empire.
So are you saying some traits should be added, or removed?
I'm thinking a good way to talk about trait additions/deletions in this thread in the future is if everyone wanting to introduce the idea of an addition/deletion could preface their comment to the thread with "Trait: Addition" or "Trait: Deletion" or even "Trait: Change" as the top line, then go into regular sentences below that. And maybe put any discussed traits in brackets. That way I can organize what needs to go where in the list without guessing or asking for clarification.
Well, I'm not sure what the new trait should be, so was trying to start a conversation. We would have to create one.
Character: The Prophet (Mirror Sarek)
Trait Deletion: Terran Rebellion
Trait Addition: Anti-Terran Rebellion/Alliance? I don't think the organization Voq was leading ever got named in the episode.
In the main forum, a suggestion was made to ad the trade "Rebel" this way we don't have to really worry about which freaking rebellion a given character is in.
Yeah, I saw that. Seems like the cheap/easy way out. He's not a rebel without a cause. He's part of a very specific organization that is trying to resist the Terran Empire.
The Prophet (Mirror Sarek) has the Terran Rebellion trait, but he's really part of the anti-Terran rebellion (though I'm not sure they called it anything at all). The Terran Rebellion was made up of Terrans -- like Smiley O'Brien and Mirror Bashir -- rebelling against the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance. The Prophet was part of Voq's rebellion against the Terran Empire.
So are you saying some traits should be added, or removed?
I'm thinking a good way to talk about trait additions/deletions in this thread in the future is if everyone wanting to introduce the idea of an addition/deletion could preface their comment to the thread with "Trait: Addition" or "Trait: Deletion" or even "Trait: Change" as the top line, then go into regular sentences below that. And maybe put any discussed traits in brackets. That way I can organize what needs to go where in the list without guessing or asking for clarification.
Well, I'm not sure what the new trait should be, so was trying to start a conversation. We would have to create one.
Character: The Prophet (Mirror Sarek)
Trait Deletion: Terran Rebellion
Trait Addition: Anti-Terran Rebellion/Alliance? I don't think the organization Voq was leading ever got named in the episode.
In the main forum, a suggestion was made to ad the trade "Rebel" this way we don't have to really worry about which freaking rebellion a given character is in.
Yeah, I saw that. Seems like the cheap/easy way out. He's not a rebel without a cause. He's part of a very specific organization that is trying to resist the Terran Empire.
It is hard to say where this discussion should go then. I'd prefer we shy away from making new traits if we don't have to. Currently, I'm unsure how dire of a need there is for an Anti-Terran Rebellion trait. I think The Prophet would work just fine if we simply took away his Terran Rebellion trait.
I'm more partial to a general trait if we must include a new one, perhaps [Revolutionary]? I understand this doesn't get the nuances of each person who is a rebel regarding their affiliation, but what is everyone else's thoughts?
Admiral of the Haus of GaghGagh, Starbase level 94, we are not accepting members at this time.
Captain of the voyage vessels: Queen of Bashir, Landsknecht, and Sunspear, the first luxury starship cruiseliners.
Amenities include wifi, fully-functioning holodecks, a full-service bar, 3 party decks, a Trill spa, and a business centre.
Fun fact: The ships are propelled by bouncy castle technology.
They are simply referred to as "The Resistance", from the order of the Terran Emperor's order to execute "Firewolf". So I think the appropriate term to coin them would be "Terran Resistance", as opposed to Lorca's "Terran Rebellion".
So, I looked at Mirror Shukar, who is in the same resistance organization as The Prophet (Mirror Sarek). He has no affiliation beyond his species, "Andorian," and also "Mirror Universe". So perhaps Lady Gaghghagh is right -- remove the Terran Rebellion trait, then let it be.
The Prophet (Mirror Sarek) has the Terran Rebellion trait, but he's really part of the anti-Terran rebellion (though I'm not sure they called it anything at all). The Terran Rebellion was made up of Terrans -- like Smiley O'Brien and Mirror Bashir -- rebelling against the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance. The Prophet was part of Voq's rebellion against the Terran Empire.
So are you saying some traits should be added, or removed?
I'm thinking a good way to talk about trait additions/deletions in this thread in the future is if everyone wanting to introduce the idea of an addition/deletion could preface their comment to the thread with "Trait: Addition" or "Trait: Deletion" or even "Trait: Change" as the top line, then go into regular sentences below that. And maybe put any discussed traits in brackets. That way I can organize what needs to go where in the list without guessing or asking for clarification.
Well, I'm not sure what the new trait should be, so was trying to start a conversation. We would have to create one.
Character: The Prophet (Mirror Sarek)
Trait Deletion: Terran Rebellion
Trait Addition: Anti-Terran Rebellion/Alliance? I don't think the organization Voq was leading ever got named in the episode.
In the main forum, a suggestion was made to ad the trade "Rebel" this way we don't have to really worry about which freaking rebellion a given character is in.
The Prophet (Mirror Sarek) has the Terran Rebellion trait, but he's really part of the anti-Terran rebellion (though I'm not sure they called it anything at all). The Terran Rebellion was made up of Terrans -- like Smiley O'Brien and Mirror Bashir -- rebelling against the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance. The Prophet was part of Voq's rebellion against the Terran Empire.
So are you saying some traits should be added, or removed?
I'm thinking a good way to talk about trait additions/deletions in this thread in the future is if everyone wanting to introduce the idea of an addition/deletion could preface their comment to the thread with "Trait: Addition" or "Trait: Deletion" or even "Trait: Change" as the top line, then go into regular sentences below that. And maybe put any discussed traits in brackets. That way I can organize what needs to go where in the list without guessing or asking for clarification.
Well, I'm not sure what the new trait should be, so was trying to start a conversation. We would have to create one.
Character: The Prophet (Mirror Sarek)
Trait Deletion: Terran Rebellion
Trait Addition: Anti-Terran Rebellion/Alliance? I don't think the organization Voq was leading ever got named in the episode.
In the main forum, a suggestion was made to ad the trade "Rebel" this way we don't have to really worry about which freaking rebellion a given character is in.
"Rebel" is quite a broad term, and the meaning can vary widely, depending on context... it could even be read as a personality trait!
I suggest that "Freedom Fighter"/"Resistance Fighter"/"Insurgent" would be more appropriate for the meaning we intend (if such a trait is needed).
[Insurgent] is a pretty good trait to create I think.
It would have to retroactively apply to a lot of characters though. Anyone Maquis, with perhaps the exception of Maquis Tuvok since he actually isn't a Maquis. All Terran Rebellion peoples. Revolutionary Damar. Agent Janeway, Katrine, Mademoiselle de Neuf, Resistance Neelix.
Admiral of the Haus of GaghGagh, Starbase level 94, we are not accepting members at this time.
Captain of the voyage vessels: Queen of Bashir, Landsknecht, and Sunspear, the first luxury starship cruiseliners.
Amenities include wifi, fully-functioning holodecks, a full-service bar, 3 party decks, a Trill spa, and a business centre.
Fun fact: The ships are propelled by bouncy castle technology.
I can’t believe I never noticed all this time that The Clown does not have the hologram trait. Seems like this is a no-brainer.
I have a hard time thinking Memory Alpha is actually right on this one. The Clown was a mental image in the interactive, collective simulation world fostered by people's mind when they used the somnistatic hibernation pods built by Viorsa's species. I'm not sure if I can call a mental conjuration a [hologram] as to date [hologram] is defined as an image created the use of light and photonic energy. Light nor photonic energy exist in brain patterns.
Admiral of the Haus of GaghGagh, Starbase level 94, we are not accepting members at this time.
Captain of the voyage vessels: Queen of Bashir, Landsknecht, and Sunspear, the first luxury starship cruiseliners.
Amenities include wifi, fully-functioning holodecks, a full-service bar, 3 party decks, a Trill spa, and a business centre.
Fun fact: The ships are propelled by bouncy castle technology.
I can’t believe I never noticed all this time that The Clown does not have the hologram trait. Seems like this is a no-brainer.
I have a hard time thinking Memory Alpha is actually right on this one. The Clown was a mental image in the interactive, collective simulation world fostered by people's mind when they used the somnistatic hibernation pods built by Viorsa's species. I'm not sure if I can call a mental conjuration a [hologram] as to date [hologram] is defined as an image created the use of light and photonic energy. Light nor photonic energy exist in brain patterns.
I think it was pretty clear that while the clown was an AI it was indeed not a hologram but a computer program that interacted with people through direct mental projection, and could not exist without a living host. While holograms were uploaded into the projection, there was no indication that it could work the other way; the clown program probably could not be uploaded onto the holodeck (even in an adapted state) because it required constant feedback from at least one host in order to fuction. Based on my trait reference catagories earlier there should be some triat describing the clown's "species" or such, but to be honest I'd rather just forget that episode of voyager ever existed.
I can’t believe I never noticed all this time that The Clown does not have the hologram trait. Seems like this is a no-brainer.
I have a hard time thinking Memory Alpha is actually right on this one. The Clown was a mental image in the interactive, collective simulation world fostered by people's mind when they used the somnistatic hibernation pods built by Viorsa's species. I'm not sure if I can call a mental conjuration a [hologram] as to date [hologram] is defined as an image created the use of light and photonic energy. Light nor photonic energy exist in brain patterns.
I think it was pretty clear that while the clown was an AI it was indeed not a hologram but a computer program that interacted with people through direct mental projection, and could not exist without a living host. While holograms were uploaded into the projection, there was no indication that it could work the other way; the clown program probably could not be uploaded onto the holodeck (even in an adapted state) because it required constant feedback from at least one host in order to fuction. Based on my trait reference catagories earlier there should be some triat describing the clown's "species" or such, but to be honest I'd rather just forget that episode of voyager ever existed.
It's not an episode I hated, though I definitely didn't care for it.
The only part I liked was Janeway coldly telling The Clown "I know" when he said he was afraid and started fading away.
But I think the general thing to learn here for everyone is: not every crew will have a trait marking their species and I guess we have to be okay with that. For example other than this one, Okona to me just is about as human as human can get, there's no discerning species difference between him and humans, but his identity was never discussed in that episode, so we have no real material to give him a trait for regarding species.
Admiral of the Haus of GaghGagh, Starbase level 94, we are not accepting members at this time.
Captain of the voyage vessels: Queen of Bashir, Landsknecht, and Sunspear, the first luxury starship cruiseliners.
Amenities include wifi, fully-functioning holodecks, a full-service bar, 3 party decks, a Trill spa, and a business centre.
Fun fact: The ships are propelled by bouncy castle technology.
What about a Passenger Trait? As a captain, I'd be happy to take along passengers, but ones that are useful or can help out. Like Mark Twain for example, or Stephen Hawkins or Issac Asimov?
Admiral Turen Counterpoint at Avalon's Galactic Armada and Captain of the U.S.S. Divinity
What about a Passenger Trait? As a captain, I'd be happy to take along passengers, but ones that are useful or can help out. Like Mark Twain for example, or Stephen Hawkins or Issac Asmov?
Well we'd have to wait for such characters to come along first. This thread is for discussing the appropriateness of traits currently existing or lacking on characters already in the game. I'm still waiting for the day we get Samuel Clemens/Mark Twain in this game, or any of the Time's Arrow versions of the TNG crew for that matter. I'd kill to see Victorian Guinan, Constable Riker, and Nurse Crusher.
Admiral of the Haus of GaghGagh, Starbase level 94, we are not accepting members at this time.
Captain of the voyage vessels: Queen of Bashir, Landsknecht, and Sunspear, the first luxury starship cruiseliners.
Amenities include wifi, fully-functioning holodecks, a full-service bar, 3 party decks, a Trill spa, and a business centre.
Fun fact: The ships are propelled by bouncy castle technology.
I mentioned passenger trait, not only for future crew - er or passengers? The Presidents may be such an example.
Stellar Treks, Turen
The presidents? You mean like when the Enterprise hosts a diplomat like Ambassador V'Lar or Lwaxana and is taking them to their next diplomatic destination?
Admiral of the Haus of GaghGagh, Starbase level 94, we are not accepting members at this time.
Captain of the voyage vessels: Queen of Bashir, Landsknecht, and Sunspear, the first luxury starship cruiseliners.
Amenities include wifi, fully-functioning holodecks, a full-service bar, 3 party decks, a Trill spa, and a business centre.
Fun fact: The ships are propelled by bouncy castle technology.
The presidents? You mean like when the Enterprise hosts a diplomat like Ambassador V'Lar or Lwaxana and is taking them to their next diplomatic destination?
Yes, like that, or President of Earth or Lincoln. Like they are either sightseeing, or traveling to a destination.
Happy Treks, Turen
Admiral Turen Counterpoint at Avalon's Galactic Armada and Captain of the U.S.S. Divinity
I am sure this has been brought up elsewhere, but ships needs added/deleted traits as well:
Historic: NX-01 Enterprise, HMS Bounty (It helped save the planet after all)
Ruthless: Deleted from USS Reliant and USS Discovery. No Federation Starship should have this trait. Just because Khan stole it, doesn't make the Reliant itself ruthless, nor because a Terran infiltrator took command of the Discovery for the same reason.
USS Discovery: Add Warship, for 9/10 of the season, they were at war with the Klingons, and constantly referred to as the "Federation's Secret Weapon".
I am sure this has been brought up elsewhere, but ships needs added/deleted traits as well:
Historic: NX-01 Enterprise, HMS Bounty (It helped save the planet after all)
Ruthless: Deleted from USS Reliant and USS Discovery. No Federation Starship should have this trait. Just because Khan stole it, doesn't make the Reliant itself ruthless, nor because a Terran infiltrator took command of the Discovery for the same reason.
USS Discovery: Add Warship, for 9/10 of the season, they were at war with the Klingons, and constantly referred to as the "Federation's Secret Weapon".
Very true, this thread is not exclusive to just crew traits. I would also add [Klingon] to the Bounty since it was still and always remained Klingon in design. So I heeded some of these, I added a ship traits section wherein [historic] was requested for NX-01, though not Bounty, NX-01 was quite historic, Bounty less so. [Ruthless] was requested removed from the Discovery, but not the Reliant as the idea of [ruthless] seems to be "under ruthless command" in which case the Reliant was, but the Discovery despite Lorca being a bit of a hardass, was not bonafide ruthless. [Warship] was requested for addition to Discovery under the reasons given.
Admiral of the Haus of GaghGagh, Starbase level 94, we are not accepting members at this time.
Captain of the voyage vessels: Queen of Bashir, Landsknecht, and Sunspear, the first luxury starship cruiseliners.
Amenities include wifi, fully-functioning holodecks, a full-service bar, 3 party decks, a Trill spa, and a business centre.
Fun fact: The ships are propelled by bouncy castle technology.
So working with Holograms this Mega has brought to light that traits are inconsistently applied. Quelle surprise.
Trait: Addition
[Human] race should be applied to:
Musketeer La Forge
Dr. Noah Hippocrates (already noted, I see)
Goddes of Empathy Troi (also [Betazoid])
Hologram Barclay
The Professor
all versions of the EMH
The last two are debatable since they are more notable for being holographic lifeforms, but they are still modeled after Humans. But the first three should be slam dunks since other holograms from the same episode have race traits.
Trait: Addition or Removal
If Musketeer La Forge has [Cyberneticist] then Goddess of Empathy Troi and Lady Beverly should have [Counselor] and [Physician] respectively. Or that could go the in the opposite direction and Musketeer La Forge should not have [Cyberneticist]. But that also begs the question... how is a hologram, even one named "Goddess of Empathy", an [Empath]?
There may be other examples out there, these were just the most obvious from the Holograms I have in my crew.
So working with Holograms this Mega has brought to light that traits are inconsistently applied. Quelle surprise.
Trait: Addition
[Human] race should be applied to:
Musketeer La Forge
Dr. Noah Hippocrates (already noted, I see)
Goddes of Empathy Troi (also [Betazoid])
Hologram Barclay
The Professor
all versions of the EMH
The last two are debatable since they are more notable for being holographic lifeforms, but they are still modeled after Humans. But the first three should be slam dunks since other holograms from the same episode have race traits.
Trait: Addition or Removal
If Musketeer La Forge has [Cyberneticist] then Goddess of Empathy Troi and Lady Beverly should have [Counselor] and [Physician] respectively. Or that could go the in the opposite direction and Musketeer La Forge should not have [Cyberneticist]. But that also begs the question... how is a hologram, even one named "Goddess of Empathy", an [Empath]?
There may be other examples out there, these were just the most obvious from the Holograms I have in my crew.
This is definitely a good discussion to have. I've often thought the EMH should have [Human] since he's modelled after humans. As for the Barclay holoprogram discussion, it's a nuanced one. We have to decide either:
a) the holograms in the Barclay holoprogram were modelled as Crusher, Geordi, and Deanna from a professional and personality-based standpoint and thus were given these holodeck roles as Lady, Musketeer, and Goddess; in which case, they deserve to keep their profession traits: [Physician], [Cyberneticist], and [Counselor] respectively
OR
b) the Barclay holograms are only physically modelled after Crusher, Geordi, and Deanna; in which case, they should have no profession-based skills other than those which would be had by their holodeck representations as a lady, musketeer, and goddess, e.g. [Caregiver], [Duelist], [Inspiring].
Admiral of the Haus of GaghGagh, Starbase level 94, we are not accepting members at this time.
Captain of the voyage vessels: Queen of Bashir, Landsknecht, and Sunspear, the first luxury starship cruiseliners.
Amenities include wifi, fully-functioning holodecks, a full-service bar, 3 party decks, a Trill spa, and a business centre.
Fun fact: The ships are propelled by bouncy castle technology.
I was definitely surprised to see the "Human" trait on Lady Beverly, since she is only a program of created of photons, not an actual person. I really hadn't paid much attention to the hologram likenesses of other characters before this.
My personal thoughts are, if the hologram is a holodeck created character, it should not have physical or professional traits/skills assigned to them just because they mimic that of their real world counterparts. (Unless, like in the case of the Doctor & Crell Moset, which were in fact created to be used as their professional skills implied.)
Command Hologram does not have the Physician skill for the same reason, yet he does retain a tertiary Medical Skill? You can't have it both ways. As I recall, the Doctor "moved" his medical knowledge/skills temporarily into other "storage" while the Command protocols were in place, but then again, he was just daydreaming the whole thing because of a programming glitch.
Danara Pel becomes a quandary under this issue. Her consciousness is put into a hologram, so does that make her any more or less than what she is? The version we have in the game is a hologram, but is also actually her essence, so both Vidiian and Hologram traits make sense.
more to add to the list, if you are leaning that direction...
Anastasia Komananov: remove Bajoran trait
Cyrus Redblock: Remove Human trait
Duchamps: remove Klingon Trait
Falcon O'Brien: Remove Human trait
Holodeck 3 Dr. Brahms: Remove Human trait
Frank Hollander: Remove Android trait
Honey Bear Jadzia: Remove Trill trait
Leonardo DaVinci: Remove Human trait
Vic Fontaine: Remove Human trait
Warship Janeway: Remove Human trait
Warship Chakotay: Remove Human trait
Warship Tuvok: Remove Vulcan trait
I was definitely surprised to see the "Human" trait on Lady Beverly, since she is only a program of created of photons, not an actual person. I really hadn't paid much attention to the hologram likenesses of other characters before this.
My personal thoughts are, if the hologram is a holodeck created character, it should not have physical or professional traits/skills assigned to them just because they mimic that of their real world counterparts. (Unless, like in the case of the Doctor & Crell Moset, which were in fact created to be used as their professional skills implied.)
Command Hologram does not have the Physician skill for the same reason, yet he does retain a tertiary Medical Skill? You can't have it both ways. As I recall, the Doctor "moved" his medical knowledge/skills temporarily into other "storage" while the Command protocols were in place, but then again, he was just daydreaming the whole thing because of a programming glitch.
Danara Pel becomes a quandary under this issue. Her consciousness is put into a hologram, so does that make her any more or less than what she is? The version we have in the game is a hologram, but is also actually her essence, so both Vidiian and Hologram traits make sense.
more to add to the list, if you are leaning that direction...
Anastasia Komananov: remove Bajoran trait
Cyrus Redblock: Remove Human trait
Duchamps: remove Klingon Trait
Falcon O'Brien: Remove Human trait
Holodeck 3 Dr. Brahms: Remove Human trait
Frank Hollander: Remove Android trait
Honey Bear Jadzia: Remove Trill trait
Leonardo DaVinci: Remove Human trait
Vic Fontaine: Remove Human trait
Warship Janeway: Remove Human trait
Warship Chakotay: Remove Human trait
Warship Tuvok: Remove Vulcan trait
My personal thoughts are they should have the species/race trait which their holographic form is designed to emulate or appear as. I think it's just simpler and makes more sense.
Admiral of the Haus of GaghGagh, Starbase level 94, we are not accepting members at this time.
Captain of the voyage vessels: Queen of Bashir, Landsknecht, and Sunspear, the first luxury starship cruiseliners.
Amenities include wifi, fully-functioning holodecks, a full-service bar, 3 party decks, a Trill spa, and a business centre.
Fun fact: The ships are propelled by bouncy castle technology.
On USS Reliant being "Ruthless" -- it depends on who's commanding it when. Since the version in the game has the traits "Federation" (not "Augment") and "Explorer", this suggests it is the Reliant that was under the command of Captain Terrell that went exploring planets looking for a lifeless one on which to test the Genesis device. So "Ruthless" would be totally wrong.
If, on the other hand, it had the "Augment" trait, instead of "Federation" (like the Bounty has the "Federation" trait instead of "Klingon"), to signify that Khan and his crew now control the ship, I think it would be perfectly appropriate to include "Ruthless."
Either way, it should have the trait "Battlecruiser" since the game establishes the Miranda-class as having that trait (which makes sense, when you remember the phaser cannons unique to that design). So, I see two options for the Reliant, depending on whether it is Terrell's ship or Khan's:
Federation, Explorer, Battlecruiser
Augment, Ruthless, Battlecruiser
Since we have plenty of Federation ships in the game and no Augment ships, and this ship was introduced as part of the Augment event, my preference would be to go the Augment route.
If you remove the traits for the species which the hologram characters resemble, then you'd also need to remove such things as the Romulan trait for Romulan Data, Romulan Picard, & Rakal Troi, and the Mintakan/Vulcan traits from Mintakan Riker & Troi.
Could you please continue the petty bickering? I find it most intriguing. ~ Data, ST:TNG "Haven"
If you remove the traits for the species which the hologram characters resemble, then you'd also need to remove such things as the Romulan trait for Romulan Data, Romulan Picard, & Rakal Troi, and the Mintakan/Vulcan traits from Mintakan Riker & Troi.
Arguments can obviously be made for both sides on that one. If someone is impersonating a species, the trait belongs of course. I am saying the holodeck character is not made of flesh and blood or even circuits to make them a conscious being.
I was going to compare those characters to those of a book, but the point would be moot. That being said, I do see the other side and recognize that some holodeck characters should have their respective race traits, but definitely not all. Professor Moriarty for example, figures out he is made of photons ("matter and energy"), and thereby not a flesh a blood human. Such as it is with The Doctor, who DOES NOT have a human trait. (Fun Fact: Jeri Ryan had a hand in creating The Doctor for Voyager basing it off the Moriarty Holodeck character having sentience.)
So...case by case basis for the holodeck characters I guess?
Comments
Sarina Douglas should have the [Federation] trait.
Quoth Memory Alpha:
True, I'll add it. I thought she already had it.
Captain of the voyage vessels: Queen of Bashir, Landsknecht, and Sunspear, the first luxury starship cruiseliners.
Amenities include wifi, fully-functioning holodecks, a full-service bar, 3 party decks, a Trill spa, and a business centre.
Fun fact: The ships are propelled by bouncy castle technology.
He was soooooo undercover, he was undercover to himself!!!
Well, I'm not sure what the new trait should be, so was trying to start a conversation. We would have to create one.
Character: The Prophet (Mirror Sarek)
Trait Deletion: Terran Rebellion
Trait Addition: Anti-Terran Rebellion/Alliance? I don't think the organization Voq was leading ever got named in the episode.
Captain Level: 95
VIP Level: 12
Unique Crew Immortalized: 525
Collections Completed: Vulcan, Ferengi, Borg, Romulan, Cardassian, Uncommon, Rare, Veteran, Common, Engineered, Physician, Innovator, Inspiring, Diplomat, Jury Rigger, Gauntlet Legends
In the main forum, a suggestion was made to ad the trade "Rebel" this way we don't have to really worry about which freaking rebellion a given character is in.
Character: The Prophet (Mirror Sarek)
Trait Deletion: Terran Rebellion
Trait Addition: Rebel
Yeah, I saw that. Seems like the cheap/easy way out. He's not a rebel without a cause. He's part of a very specific organization that is trying to resist the Terran Empire.
Captain Level: 95
VIP Level: 12
Unique Crew Immortalized: 525
Collections Completed: Vulcan, Ferengi, Borg, Romulan, Cardassian, Uncommon, Rare, Veteran, Common, Engineered, Physician, Innovator, Inspiring, Diplomat, Jury Rigger, Gauntlet Legends
It is hard to say where this discussion should go then. I'd prefer we shy away from making new traits if we don't have to. Currently, I'm unsure how dire of a need there is for an Anti-Terran Rebellion trait. I think The Prophet would work just fine if we simply took away his Terran Rebellion trait.
I'm more partial to a general trait if we must include a new one, perhaps [Revolutionary]? I understand this doesn't get the nuances of each person who is a rebel regarding their affiliation, but what is everyone else's thoughts?
Captain of the voyage vessels: Queen of Bashir, Landsknecht, and Sunspear, the first luxury starship cruiseliners.
Amenities include wifi, fully-functioning holodecks, a full-service bar, 3 party decks, a Trill spa, and a business centre.
Fun fact: The ships are propelled by bouncy castle technology.
Captain Level: 95
VIP Level: 12
Unique Crew Immortalized: 525
Collections Completed: Vulcan, Ferengi, Borg, Romulan, Cardassian, Uncommon, Rare, Veteran, Common, Engineered, Physician, Innovator, Inspiring, Diplomat, Jury Rigger, Gauntlet Legends
"Rebel" is quite a broad term, and the meaning can vary widely, depending on context... it could even be read as a personality trait!
I suggest that "Freedom Fighter"/"Resistance Fighter"/"Insurgent" would be more appropriate for the meaning we intend (if such a trait is needed).
[Insurgent] is a pretty good trait to create I think.
It would have to retroactively apply to a lot of characters though. Anyone Maquis, with perhaps the exception of Maquis Tuvok since he actually isn't a Maquis. All Terran Rebellion peoples. Revolutionary Damar. Agent Janeway, Katrine, Mademoiselle de Neuf, Resistance Neelix.
Captain of the voyage vessels: Queen of Bashir, Landsknecht, and Sunspear, the first luxury starship cruiseliners.
Amenities include wifi, fully-functioning holodecks, a full-service bar, 3 party decks, a Trill spa, and a business centre.
Fun fact: The ships are propelled by bouncy castle technology.
I can’t believe I never noticed all this time that The Clown does not have the hologram trait. Seems like this is a no-brainer.
I have a hard time thinking Memory Alpha is actually right on this one. The Clown was a mental image in the interactive, collective simulation world fostered by people's mind when they used the somnistatic hibernation pods built by Viorsa's species. I'm not sure if I can call a mental conjuration a [hologram] as to date [hologram] is defined as an image created the use of light and photonic energy. Light nor photonic energy exist in brain patterns.
Captain of the voyage vessels: Queen of Bashir, Landsknecht, and Sunspear, the first luxury starship cruiseliners.
Amenities include wifi, fully-functioning holodecks, a full-service bar, 3 party decks, a Trill spa, and a business centre.
Fun fact: The ships are propelled by bouncy castle technology.
I think it was pretty clear that while the clown was an AI it was indeed not a hologram but a computer program that interacted with people through direct mental projection, and could not exist without a living host. While holograms were uploaded into the projection, there was no indication that it could work the other way; the clown program probably could not be uploaded onto the holodeck (even in an adapted state) because it required constant feedback from at least one host in order to fuction. Based on my trait reference catagories earlier there should be some triat describing the clown's "species" or such, but to be honest I'd rather just forget that episode of voyager ever existed.
It's not an episode I hated, though I definitely didn't care for it.
The only part I liked was Janeway coldly telling The Clown "I know" when he said he was afraid and started fading away.
But I think the general thing to learn here for everyone is: not every crew will have a trait marking their species and I guess we have to be okay with that. For example other than this one, Okona to me just is about as human as human can get, there's no discerning species difference between him and humans, but his identity was never discussed in that episode, so we have no real material to give him a trait for regarding species.
Captain of the voyage vessels: Queen of Bashir, Landsknecht, and Sunspear, the first luxury starship cruiseliners.
Amenities include wifi, fully-functioning holodecks, a full-service bar, 3 party decks, a Trill spa, and a business centre.
Fun fact: The ships are propelled by bouncy castle technology.
Well we'd have to wait for such characters to come along first. This thread is for discussing the appropriateness of traits currently existing or lacking on characters already in the game. I'm still waiting for the day we get Samuel Clemens/Mark Twain in this game, or any of the Time's Arrow versions of the TNG crew for that matter. I'd kill to see Victorian Guinan, Constable Riker, and Nurse Crusher.
Captain of the voyage vessels: Queen of Bashir, Landsknecht, and Sunspear, the first luxury starship cruiseliners.
Amenities include wifi, fully-functioning holodecks, a full-service bar, 3 party decks, a Trill spa, and a business centre.
Fun fact: The ships are propelled by bouncy castle technology.
Stellar Treks, Turen
The presidents? You mean like when the Enterprise hosts a diplomat like Ambassador V'Lar or Lwaxana and is taking them to their next diplomatic destination?
Captain of the voyage vessels: Queen of Bashir, Landsknecht, and Sunspear, the first luxury starship cruiseliners.
Amenities include wifi, fully-functioning holodecks, a full-service bar, 3 party decks, a Trill spa, and a business centre.
Fun fact: The ships are propelled by bouncy castle technology.
Yes, like that, or President of Earth or Lincoln. Like they are either sightseeing, or traveling to a destination.
Happy Treks, Turen
Historic: NX-01 Enterprise, HMS Bounty (It helped save the planet after all)
Ruthless: Deleted from USS Reliant and USS Discovery. No Federation Starship should have this trait. Just because Khan stole it, doesn't make the Reliant itself ruthless, nor because a Terran infiltrator took command of the Discovery for the same reason.
USS Discovery: Add Warship, for 9/10 of the season, they were at war with the Klingons, and constantly referred to as the "Federation's Secret Weapon".
Very true, this thread is not exclusive to just crew traits. I would also add [Klingon] to the Bounty since it was still and always remained Klingon in design. So I heeded some of these, I added a ship traits section wherein [historic] was requested for NX-01, though not Bounty, NX-01 was quite historic, Bounty less so. [Ruthless] was requested removed from the Discovery, but not the Reliant as the idea of [ruthless] seems to be "under ruthless command" in which case the Reliant was, but the Discovery despite Lorca being a bit of a hardass, was not bonafide ruthless. [Warship] was requested for addition to Discovery under the reasons given.
Captain of the voyage vessels: Queen of Bashir, Landsknecht, and Sunspear, the first luxury starship cruiseliners.
Amenities include wifi, fully-functioning holodecks, a full-service bar, 3 party decks, a Trill spa, and a business centre.
Fun fact: The ships are propelled by bouncy castle technology.
Trait: Addition
[Human] race should be applied to:
Musketeer La Forge
Dr. Noah Hippocrates (already noted, I see)
Goddes of Empathy Troi (also [Betazoid])
Hologram Barclay
The Professor
all versions of the EMH
The last two are debatable since they are more notable for being holographic lifeforms, but they are still modeled after Humans. But the first three should be slam dunks since other holograms from the same episode have race traits.
Trait: Addition or Removal
If Musketeer La Forge has [Cyberneticist] then Goddess of Empathy Troi and Lady Beverly should have [Counselor] and [Physician] respectively. Or that could go the in the opposite direction and Musketeer La Forge should not have [Cyberneticist]. But that also begs the question... how is a hologram, even one named "Goddess of Empathy", an [Empath]?
There may be other examples out there, these were just the most obvious from the Holograms I have in my crew.
This is definitely a good discussion to have. I've often thought the EMH should have [Human] since he's modelled after humans. As for the Barclay holoprogram discussion, it's a nuanced one. We have to decide either:
a) the holograms in the Barclay holoprogram were modelled as Crusher, Geordi, and Deanna from a professional and personality-based standpoint and thus were given these holodeck roles as Lady, Musketeer, and Goddess; in which case, they deserve to keep their profession traits: [Physician], [Cyberneticist], and [Counselor] respectively
OR
b) the Barclay holograms are only physically modelled after Crusher, Geordi, and Deanna; in which case, they should have no profession-based skills other than those which would be had by their holodeck representations as a lady, musketeer, and goddess, e.g. [Caregiver], [Duelist], [Inspiring].
Captain of the voyage vessels: Queen of Bashir, Landsknecht, and Sunspear, the first luxury starship cruiseliners.
Amenities include wifi, fully-functioning holodecks, a full-service bar, 3 party decks, a Trill spa, and a business centre.
Fun fact: The ships are propelled by bouncy castle technology.
My personal thoughts are, if the hologram is a holodeck created character, it should not have physical or professional traits/skills assigned to them just because they mimic that of their real world counterparts. (Unless, like in the case of the Doctor & Crell Moset, which were in fact created to be used as their professional skills implied.)
Command Hologram does not have the Physician skill for the same reason, yet he does retain a tertiary Medical Skill? You can't have it both ways. As I recall, the Doctor "moved" his medical knowledge/skills temporarily into other "storage" while the Command protocols were in place, but then again, he was just daydreaming the whole thing because of a programming glitch.
Danara Pel becomes a quandary under this issue. Her consciousness is put into a hologram, so does that make her any more or less than what she is? The version we have in the game is a hologram, but is also actually her essence, so both Vidiian and Hologram traits make sense.
more to add to the list, if you are leaning that direction...
Anastasia Komananov: remove Bajoran trait
Cyrus Redblock: Remove Human trait
Duchamps: remove Klingon Trait
Falcon O'Brien: Remove Human trait
Holodeck 3 Dr. Brahms: Remove Human trait
Frank Hollander: Remove Android trait
Honey Bear Jadzia: Remove Trill trait
Leonardo DaVinci: Remove Human trait
Vic Fontaine: Remove Human trait
Warship Janeway: Remove Human trait
Warship Chakotay: Remove Human trait
Warship Tuvok: Remove Vulcan trait
My personal thoughts are they should have the species/race trait which their holographic form is designed to emulate or appear as. I think it's just simpler and makes more sense.
Captain of the voyage vessels: Queen of Bashir, Landsknecht, and Sunspear, the first luxury starship cruiseliners.
Amenities include wifi, fully-functioning holodecks, a full-service bar, 3 party decks, a Trill spa, and a business centre.
Fun fact: The ships are propelled by bouncy castle technology.
If, on the other hand, it had the "Augment" trait, instead of "Federation" (like the Bounty has the "Federation" trait instead of "Klingon"), to signify that Khan and his crew now control the ship, I think it would be perfectly appropriate to include "Ruthless."
Either way, it should have the trait "Battlecruiser" since the game establishes the Miranda-class as having that trait (which makes sense, when you remember the phaser cannons unique to that design). So, I see two options for the Reliant, depending on whether it is Terrell's ship or Khan's:
Since we have plenty of Federation ships in the game and no Augment ships, and this ship was introduced as part of the Augment event, my preference would be to go the Augment route.
Captain Level: 95
VIP Level: 12
Unique Crew Immortalized: 525
Collections Completed: Vulcan, Ferengi, Borg, Romulan, Cardassian, Uncommon, Rare, Veteran, Common, Engineered, Physician, Innovator, Inspiring, Diplomat, Jury Rigger, Gauntlet Legends
Could you please continue the petty bickering? I find it most intriguing.
~ Data, ST:TNG "Haven"
Arguments can obviously be made for both sides on that one. If someone is impersonating a species, the trait belongs of course. I am saying the holodeck character is not made of flesh and blood or even circuits to make them a conscious being.
I was going to compare those characters to those of a book, but the point would be moot. That being said, I do see the other side and recognize that some holodeck characters should have their respective race traits, but definitely not all. Professor Moriarty for example, figures out he is made of photons ("matter and energy"), and thereby not a flesh a blood human. Such as it is with The Doctor, who DOES NOT have a human trait. (Fun Fact: Jeri Ryan had a hand in creating The Doctor for Voyager basing it off the Moriarty Holodeck character having sentience.)
So...case by case basis for the holodeck characters I guess?