I've gotten the anti-macro pop-up exactly 1 time, during the Event that they introduced that "feature".
I think the best way to modify and be effective is to not provide a single possible answer but rather, as has been said before, give 2 possible answers that randomly change places & only 1 of them lets you continue playing.
[DCC] bebe
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Dilithium Causes Cancer, maxed Starbase level 134
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So, not trying to be "that guy" but -
your math is wrong.
I have every crew in the game, I have every ship in the game. So does Sisko, so does SilverRose. With the best crew possible, on the best ship possible, it's still 2 mins and change to get from Skirm 1 to "2000VP" screen.
It is completely impossible to do it faster than that.
I totally agree.
On another Topic:
I always wondered(or was afraid of)) if its possible, since steam is played on a PC, that some macro users might even change the code, so they can skip animations or cut them off early? Not sure its possible, but i d suspect animations are client side only. So this would be another unfair advantage.
Those who are saying your fleet would kick that person out if it was discovered someone was using a macro. Would you also turn them in to DB?
I haven’t seen anyone answer this
Why wouldn't a fleet do that? As an admiral, I definitely would kick them out, and my fleetmates know this. For any of our fleets. As far as notifying DB, I probably would as we run good honest fleets, but I also think DB actually can tell who does use macros. But all a player has to do is change his name to avoid scrutiny from other fleets or players. And it wouldn't be tattling, but rather it would be protecting the integrity of the game for all.
Some math around what sort of chrons we're talking about here:
141k chrons is certainly a large number, but consider that even F2P players have been able to bring similar looking amounts into galaxy events. Someone paying extra for voyage extensions and MWF cadets can bank them even faster.
This also doesn't include re-investment of chrons. If memory serves, you see a return of about 62% of chrons while running a kit. Re-investing them will, also, return ~62%. The math (eventually) works out to 100 chrons being worth, on average, 263 chrons. that factor (2.63) means that you "only" need to bring in about 54k chronotons to the event (a more reasonable number).
Now, running constantly 24/7 is another matter entirely. I think the main problems here are:
1) It takes too long to exhaust one's intel. If you bring in a sufficiently large number of chronotons, it is not humanly possible to actually exhaust all of the intel it is generates. For my own sanity this event, I actually skipped all of the 5th missions, since all I really care about are the "other" rewards and not the actual character.
This ends up being a combination of mission animations are too long, intel costs are too low (or chron exchange rate is too high), and/or chron return rates are too high. All of these are contributors to the above problem and I think all should be addressed in some manner for balance.
2) The missions themselves are too predictable. It is very easy to automate.
In a lot of ways, these missions are the same as a galaxy event that has a 3min cooldown to build a recipe. It's feasible to macro galaxies, but it takes more chrons to get to the point that it is literally taking all of your waking hours to achieve it. Due to the much lower chron threshold to "max out" a skirmish, it becomes a battle of who can either stay awake the longest or write the most efficient/accurate macro.
Excellent brainwaves again Peachtree! Thx for the math and breakdown. So it is a micro at work is it not? You concur?
I didn't really present any evidence, just the chron numbers that you'd have to bring to bear to achieve such a result.
Barclay actually provided what I would call the best evidence so far. I don't think it's humanly possible to maintain that sort of performance over such a long period of time.
Agreed. Yes, I saw Barkley's graph. Inhumanly possible to keep scoring like that.
After a while, I can't stare at my screen to long or else I get headaches and eyes hurt.
Hi all, im the guy who came third. I am not a macro. So how in the heck did you get all those points then you all might ask.
I am, in poker terms a grinder( not related to the app). I am like the little old lady who sits at the vegas slot machine from morning to night. Im the guy who played Elder scrolls Oblivion and let a rat attack me 1million time (possible exaggeration) with my shield up to get my blocking skill up to 100. I just have that kind of mentality.
There is no secret to winning skirmishes, its just a grind. I had over 45k chrons saved up pre event. Fired up a supply kit and off i went.
"Wow, you must have RSI"- you would be right (even though i switch between using a mouse and stylus on my phone). "You must look like a zombie from the lack of sleep"- yip, but i have a snotty 2 year old so who wakes me up anyways. "How do you have the time to play that much?" - I had vacation time. I drank from the "victory is life" jem'hadar coolaid.
In the entire event i had the anti macro message pop up 0 times. I had "this event phase has ended" pop up prob 50 times. Somethings obviously not working. As SSR Barkleys posted graph strongly suggests, first place used a macro. Am i annoyed... for sure. I put in a lot of time and energy (with possible crippling arthritis in my near future) into this event. My fleetmate was essentially robbed of 1st position and my fleet the well earned honour of the treble( 1st in fleet,squadron and individual)
Im not gonna add fuel to the fire and dump on DB or make suggestions for a fix, more intelligent and eloqeant people already have and will. Just sort it out, its not a new problem, but it is a festering wound that needs healing.
Hi all, im the guy who came third. I am not a macro. So how in the heck did you get all those points then you all might ask.
I am, in poker terms a grinder( not related to the app). I am like the little old lady who sits at the vegas slot machine from morning to night. Im the guy who played Elder scrolls Oblivion and let a rat attack me 1million time (possible exaggeration) with my shield up to get my blocking skill up to 100. I just have that kind of mentality.
There is no secret to winning skirmishes, its just a grind. I had over 45k chrons saved up pre event. Fired up a supply kit and off i went.
"Wow, you must have RSI"- you would be right (even though i switch between using a mouse and stylus on my phone). "You must look like a zombie from the lack of sleep"- yip, but i have a snotty 2 year old so who wakes me up anyways. "How do you have the time to play that much?" - I had vacation time. I drank from the "victory is life" jem'hadar coolaid.
In the entire event i had the anti macro message pop up 0 times. I had "this event phase has ended" pop up prob 50 times. Somethings obviously not working. As SSR Barkleys posted graph strongly suggests, first place used a macro. Am i annoyed... for sure. I put in a lot of time and energy (with possible crippling arthritis in my near future) into this event. My fleetmate was essentially robbed of 1st position and my fleet the well earned honour of the treble( 1st in fleet,squadron and individual)
Im not gonna add fuel to the fire and dump on DB or make suggestions for a fix, more intelligent and eloqeant people already have and will. Just sort it out, its not a new problem, but it is a festering wound that needs healing.
I also spent the last 4 days grinding away, using vacation time from work. My goal was to get too 1500 and achieved it. Great job on your third p!ace finish. Next skirmish event tied with work vacation I may do the same as you. Again, congrats. No sarcasm intended.
I had "this event phase has ended" pop up prob 50 times. Somethings obviously not working.
That happens if you accidentally and/or without realising tap the ‘Begin Skirmish’ button twice. Maybe the server lagged for a second, or you thought your finger had missed.
People talking about ip addresses is so funny. Have you guys not heard of VPNs? Also the point about sharing accounts. How likely is it that someone would share their account with frankly a stranger on the other side of the globe? Not at all likely. What is more likely is sharing it with your siblings for example, your children and your relatives in general because the risk involved would be far less than giving your account details to a complete stranger. Now I see that it is against the rules to share. But I wonder how in the world would it even be enforceable if someone's wife or husband is playing the game using the exact same location and exact same device? No one would be able to tell that it is a totally different person playing on the account. As far as the pop-up goes, I haven't seen it in any skirmish event. Just one Galaxy event where it popped up just randomly as soon as I entered the event menu where it wanted me to prove that I am not am Android or something like that (and I just loaded up the game like 10 minutes prior so it wasn't even running for long). I am of the belief that you need these pop-ups to catch those macro users (but they need to be improved like with different colored buttons and the buttons placed at different places) but at the same time they shouldn't be an annoyance to legitimate players. I wouldn't want to play a game that asks me every hour or so to prove that I am human so to say. So they should find a balance between those two factors.
Those who are saying your fleet would kick that person out if it was discovered someone was using a macro. Would you also turn them in to DB?
Not only is "that person" apparently using a macro, but the fleet name would appear to be an anagram of "Macro" missing a single letter. As if they created the fleet for only players using macros.
Those who are saying your fleet would kick that person out if it was discovered someone was using a macro. Would you also turn them in to DB?
Not only is "that person" apparently using a macro, but the fleet name would appear to be an anagram of "Macro" missing a single letter. As if they created the fleet for only players using macros.
The paranoia is strong with this one. If you mean MACO then you need to look up what it stands for. It stands for Military Assault Command Operations and it is quite an old and established fleet.
Those who are saying your fleet would kick that person out if it was discovered someone was using a macro. Would you also turn them in to DB?
I haven’t seen anyone answer this
I'm not the fleet leader, but as an officer I would recommend disclosing it to DB.
I am the fleet leader and I would do it. I despise liars and cheats. The tedium of repetitive grinding events is bad enough. A cheat that makes your grinding even more meaningless... Keelhauling is a time honoured tradition.
Those who are saying your fleet would kick that person out if it was discovered someone was using a macro. Would you also turn them in to DB?
Not only is "that person" apparently using a macro, but the fleet name would appear to be an anagram of "Macro" missing a single letter. As if they created the fleet for only players using macros.
The paranoia is strong with this one. If you mean MACO then you need to look up what it stands for. It stands for Military Assault Command Operations and it is quite an old and established fleet.
Fleet ORCA Captain M(e) which is indeed not just an anagram but MACRO written backwards.
Those who are saying your fleet would kick that person out if it was discovered someone was using a macro. Would you also turn them in to DB?
Not only is "that person" apparently using a macro, but the fleet name would appear to be an anagram of "Macro" missing a single letter. As if they created the fleet for only players using macros.
The paranoia is strong with this one. If you mean MACO then you need to look up what it stands for. It stands for Military Assault Command Operations and it is quite an old and established fleet.
Fleet ORCA Captain M(e) which is indeed not just an anagram but MACRO written backwards.
Oh so it wasn't MACO. Yes, that does seem a very unusual and would perhaps be one coincidence too many to dismiss.
Those who are saying your fleet would kick that person out if it was discovered someone was using a macro. Would you also turn them in to DB?
Not only is "that person" apparently using a macro, but the fleet name would appear to be an anagram of "Macro" missing a single letter. As if they created the fleet for only players using macros.
The paranoia is strong with this one. If you mean MACO then you need to look up what it stands for. It stands for Military Assault Command Operations and it is quite an old and established fleet.
Fleet ORCA Captain M(e) which is indeed not just an anagram but MACRO written backwards.
So the fact they essentially publicly announced they were a Macro user in addition to the data gathered by some fellow players proves one hundred percent this person cheated. DB better do something and do something fast because this will cause the biggest loss of profits and player base that makes any other incident in the past that angered users enough to close wallets and/or just leave look like nothing ever happened then.
There are three ways to do something; the right way, the wrong way, and the Janeway.
It’s also possible this guy is sharing the account. Three people could take 8 hour shifts, four people could take 6 hour shifts...
Which would also be against the TOS. And perhaps easy to spot if DB looked at the IP addresses and rough location of logins into that single account.
how would you be able to tell the difference, between multiple users and people using different mediums to access their accounts? aka work computers, tablets, phones, pcs, they may all have different ip addys. Also, unless we sign a waiver, that might be some violation of privacy law or something.
You raise some interesting points.
One person using different devices wouldn’t, on its own, show multiple different IP addresses. You are either using a broadband connection (at home, in the office, cafe, etc) or you’re using cellular data (from masts).
Your public IP isn’t really that private. It can be used to determine your ISP and a rough location. There’s no court orders needed for that, it can be looked up freely.
That being said, only DB have access to this information (in general). So they should easily be able to see if 1 account is logging in on east coast US for a few hours, then if it suddenly pops up in Australia for 3hrs, that should ring alarm bells without it being close to a personal data breach.
Laws vary, but I’m pretty sure a players public IP address can be analysed without it being a privacy breach.
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It’s also possible this guy is sharing the account. Three people could take 8 hour shifts, four people could take 6 hour shifts...
Which would also be against the TOS. And perhaps easy to spot if DB looked at the IP addresses and rough location of logins into that single account.
how would you be able to tell the difference, between multiple users and people using different mediums to access their accounts? aka work computers, tablets, phones, pcs, they may all have different ip addys. Also, unless we sign a waiver, that might be some violation of privacy law or something.
You raise some interesting points.
One person using different devices wouldn’t, on its own, show multiple different IP addresses. You are either using a broadband connection (at home, in the office, cafe, etc) or you’re using cellular data (from masts).
Your public IP isn’t really that private. It can be used to determine your ISP and a rough location. There’s no court orders needed for that, it can be looked up freely.
That being said, only DB have access to this information (in general). So they should easily be able to see if 1 account is logging in on east coast US for a few hours, then if it suddenly pops up in Australia for 3hrs, that should ring alarm bells without it being close to a personal data breach.
Laws vary, but I’m pretty sure a players public IP address can be analysed without it being a privacy breach.
I use a vpn, as I suspect others do as well. The vpn puts my IP address all over the country, but it's only me logging in. It should be obvious that I don't use a macro because my final rank was about 3000.
Those who are saying your fleet would kick that person out if it was discovered someone was using a macro. Would you also turn them in to DB?
Not only is "that person" apparently using a macro, but the fleet name would appear to be an anagram of "Macro" missing a single letter. As if they created the fleet for only players using macros.
The paranoia is strong with this one. If you mean MACO then you need to look up what it stands for. It stands for Military Assault Command Operations and it is quite an old and established fleet.
Fleet ORCA Captain M(e) which is indeed not just an anagram but MACRO written backwards.
So the fact they essentially publicly announced they were a Macro user in addition to the data gathered by some fellow players proves one hundred percent this person cheated. DB better do something and do something fast because this will cause the biggest loss of profits and player base that makes any other incident in the past that angered users enough to close wallets and/or just leave look like nothing ever happened then.
They need to analyze it certainly and punish the player if they prove that he/she was using macros. But even with all of the evidence, it could be that the user is innocent even if the likelihood is quite small at this point but it is possible. I remember that people (falsely) accused Arachnia as well after a skirmish event and she didn't cheat. People made graphs then as well apparently "proving" without any doubt that she was cheating. Same thing happened the previous skirmish event. Will every single skirmish winner be accused for cheating?
Those who are saying your fleet would kick that person out if it was discovered someone was using a macro. Would you also turn them in to DB?
Not only is "that person" apparently using a macro, but the fleet name would appear to be an anagram of "Macro" missing a single letter. As if they created the fleet for only players using macros.
The paranoia is strong with this one. If you mean MACO then you need to look up what it stands for. It stands for Military Assault Command Operations and it is quite an old and established fleet.
Fleet ORCA Captain M(e) which is indeed not just an anagram but MACRO written backwards.
So the fact they essentially publicly announced they were a Macro user in addition to the data gathered by some fellow players proves one hundred percent this person cheated. DB better do something and do something fast because this will cause the biggest loss of profits and player base that makes any other incident in the past that angered users enough to close wallets and/or just leave look like nothing ever happened then.
They need to analyze it certainly and punish the player if they prove that he/she was using macros. But even with all of the evidence, it could be that the user is innocent even if the likelihood is quite small at this point but it is possible. I remember that people (falsely) accused Arachnia as well after a skirmish event and she didn't cheat. People made graphs then as well apparently "proving" without any doubt that she was cheating. Same thing happened the previous skirmish event. Will every single skirmish winner be accused for cheating?
When the top player is building more points than even the second and third place players, both of which had been playing their tails off, and increasing the VP gap even when all of those players are online at the same time, something seems off. There will always be people pointing fingers, but when literally every angle is pointing to only one reason and even those hard core players who know a human's limit to what can be done because they themselves have done it are saying someone definitely cheated, then there is no getting around that fact.
There are three ways to do something; the right way, the wrong way, and the Janeway.
Macros are easy to spot because the scoring intervals are steady and consistent. What humans make up for in efficiency, macros make up for in consistency. If someone is steadily plodding along as a human player, they will still have variations in play and rate of play and therefore show a wiggly trendline, for lack of a scientific term. Macros will show no such variation and therefore will have a straighter line. The closer you get to a direct line with no variation, the closer you will come to an r2 coefficient of 1.
So far, we've seen several event winners that are suspected bots perform with an r2 coefficient of 1. Paladin, who won last skirmish, beat the bots because he was more efficient - and while he had a coefficient close to 1, his r2 was not exactly 1 like the others have been.
So, really, the trendline is what's convincing. Folks who are account sharing or using a macro are able to play more consistently than people who have basic human needs, like showering or, hell, pausing to wipe after using the rest room every once in a while. That will show in a trendline. If it doesn't, it means that something else is up.
Those who are saying your fleet would kick that person out if it was discovered someone was using a macro. Would you also turn them in to DB?
Not only is "that person" apparently using a macro, but the fleet name would appear to be an anagram of "Macro" missing a single letter. As if they created the fleet for only players using macros.
The paranoia is strong with this one. If you mean MACO then you need to look up what it stands for. It stands for Military Assault Command Operations and it is quite an old and established fleet.
Fleet ORCA Captain M(e) which is indeed not just an anagram but MACRO written backwards.
So the fact they essentially publicly announced they were a Macro user in addition to the data gathered by some fellow players proves one hundred percent this person cheated. DB better do something and do something fast because this will cause the biggest loss of profits and player base that makes any other incident in the past that angered users enough to close wallets and/or just leave look like nothing ever happened then.
They need to analyze it certainly and punish the player if they prove that he/she was using macros. But even with all of the evidence, it could be that the user is innocent even if the likelihood is quite small at this point but it is possible. I remember that people (falsely) accused Arachnia as well after a skirmish event and she didn't cheat. People made graphs then as well apparently "proving" without any doubt that she was cheating. Same thing happened the previous skirmish event. Will every single skirmish winner be accused for cheating?
When the top player is building more points than even the second and third place players, both of which had been playing their tails off, and increasing the VP gap even when all of those players are online at the same time, something seems off. There will always be people pointing fingers, but when literally every angle is pointing to only one reason and even those hard core players who know a human's limit to what can be done because they themselves have done it are saying someone definitely cheated, then there is no getting around that fact.
That theory isn't really holding any water. I don't know how exactly these macros would work but you can't be much faster than a human and I would probably bet that any macro would be slower than a human or the same speed. If both rank 2 and 3 were online and playing hard like you said and the VP gap was still increasing, I would probably assume that the #1 player was using better crew that allowed him/her to complete battles just a couple of seconds faster. That would make more sense to me. Or alternatively, the #1 player could be spending a lot of dil on the event to purchase the bonus rewards. I don't know if it is worth it but I can imagine that from a VP point, it would be worth it since it takes a lot less time than doing a full battle.
Those who are saying your fleet would kick that person out if it was discovered someone was using a macro. Would you also turn them in to DB?
Not only is "that person" apparently using a macro, but the fleet name would appear to be an anagram of "Macro" missing a single letter. As if they created the fleet for only players using macros.
The paranoia is strong with this one. If you mean MACO then you need to look up what it stands for. It stands for Military Assault Command Operations and it is quite an old and established fleet.
Fleet ORCA Captain M(e) which is indeed not just an anagram but MACRO written backwards.
So the fact they essentially publicly announced they were a Macro user in addition to the data gathered by some fellow players proves one hundred percent this person cheated. DB better do something and do something fast because this will cause the biggest loss of profits and player base that makes any other incident in the past that angered users enough to close wallets and/or just leave look like nothing ever happened then.
They need to analyze it certainly and punish the player if they prove that he/she was using macros. But even with all of the evidence, it could be that the user is innocent even if the likelihood is quite small at this point but it is possible. I remember that people (falsely) accused Arachnia as well after a skirmish event and she didn't cheat. People made graphs then as well apparently "proving" without any doubt that she was cheating. Same thing happened the previous skirmish event. Will every single skirmish winner be accused for cheating?
When the top player is building more points than even the second and third place players, both of which had been playing their tails off, and increasing the VP gap even when all of those players are online at the same time, something seems off. There will always be people pointing fingers, but when literally every angle is pointing to only one reason and even those hard core players who know a human's limit to what can be done because they themselves have done it are saying someone definitely cheated, then there is no getting around that fact.
That theory isn't really holding any water. I don't know how exactly these macros would work but you can't be much faster than a human and I would probably bet that any macro would be slower than a human or the same speed. If both rank 2 and 3 were online and playing hard like you said and the VP gap was still increasing, I would probably assume that the #1 player was using better crew that allowed him/her to complete battles just a couple of seconds faster. That would make more sense to me. Or alternatively, the #1 player could be spending a lot of dil on the event to purchase the bonus rewards. I don't know if it is worth it but I can imagine that from a VP point, it would be worth it since it takes a lot less time than doing a full battle.
Macros are essentially bots, which are capable of moving much faster and be a lot more efficient than the fastest human. I can guarantee that all three had the same crew and the same ships for the battles. If I was under ten seconds per ship battle, so were they. With the animation and the activation times of crew, there is only so fast one can move to complete one round and move onto the next.
SilverRose said it precisely; a human will at least show some inconsistencies in game play for one reason or another. A Macro/bot will be consistent all the way through as the data shows 1st place was.
There are three ways to do something; the right way, the wrong way, and the Janeway.
Maybe.....to save future arguments and finger pointing (as no one has definite proof but graphs), DB should put Skirmishes on the shelf and work on some changes. Because ever since Skirmishes came out, accusations have run rampant and this is not healthy for the game or the players. Every Skirmish event we have posts calling out cheating. And I would seriously hope that 'trekkies' would not want to cheat. They may be somewhat nerdy (not me of course ) but they are usually better people that non Trekkie's. There is a better class of people here than other games.
Those who are saying your fleet would kick that person out if it was discovered someone was using a macro. Would you also turn them in to DB?
Not only is "that person" apparently using a macro, but the fleet name would appear to be an anagram of "Macro" missing a single letter. As if they created the fleet for only players using macros.
The paranoia is strong with this one. If you mean MACO then you need to look up what it stands for. It stands for Military Assault Command Operations and it is quite an old and established fleet.
Fleet ORCA Captain M(e) which is indeed not just an anagram but MACRO written backwards.
So the fact they essentially publicly announced they were a Macro user in addition to the data gathered by some fellow players proves one hundred percent this person cheated. DB better do something and do something fast because this will cause the biggest loss of profits and player base that makes any other incident in the past that angered users enough to close wallets and/or just leave look like nothing ever happened then.
They need to analyze it certainly and punish the player if they prove that he/she was using macros. But even with all of the evidence, it could be that the user is innocent even if the likelihood is quite small at this point but it is possible. I remember that people (falsely) accused Arachnia as well after a skirmish event and she didn't cheat. People made graphs then as well apparently "proving" without any doubt that she was cheating. Same thing happened the previous skirmish event. Will every single skirmish winner be accused for cheating?
When the top player is building more points than even the second and third place players, both of which had been playing their tails off, and increasing the VP gap even when all of those players are online at the same time, something seems off. There will always be people pointing fingers, but when literally every angle is pointing to only one reason and even those hard core players who know a human's limit to what can be done because they themselves have done it are saying someone definitely cheated, then there is no getting around that fact.
That theory isn't really holding any water. I don't know how exactly these macros would work but you can't be much faster than a human and I would probably bet that any macro would be slower than a human or the same speed. If both rank 2 and 3 were online and playing hard like you said and the VP gap was still increasing, I would probably assume that the #1 player was using better crew that allowed him/her to complete battles just a couple of seconds faster. That would make more sense to me. Or alternatively, the #1 player could be spending a lot of dil on the event to purchase the bonus rewards. I don't know if it is worth it but I can imagine that from a VP point, it would be worth it since it takes a lot less time than doing a full battle.
Macros are essentially bots, which are capable of moving much faster and be a lot more efficient than the fastest human. I can guarantee that all three had the same crew and the same ships for the battles. If I was under ten seconds per ship battle, so were they. With the animation and the activation times of crew, there is only so fast one can move to complete one round and move onto the next.
SilverRose said it precisely; a human will at least show some inconsistencies in game play for one reason or another. A Macro/bot will be consistent all the way through as the data shows 1st place was.
Sorry but I don't buy the "macros" are much faster thing. As a human, you are most likely faster or you are as fast as any not/macro would be. You are tapping and you can tap very fast as a human player even before the crew/ship abilities activate and so you are essentially tapping the moment when it activated. No bot or macro is going to be doing it faster than that (and most definitely not so much so that it would be noticable in VP gain). Yes inconsistency is pretty much a requirement and would be a decent indicator of some funny business going on.
Those who are saying your fleet would kick that person out if it was discovered someone was using a macro. Would you also turn them in to DB?
Not only is "that person" apparently using a macro, but the fleet name would appear to be an anagram of "Macro" missing a single letter. As if they created the fleet for only players using macros.
The paranoia is strong with this one. If you mean MACO then you need to look up what it stands for. It stands for Military Assault Command Operations and it is quite an old and established fleet.
Fleet ORCA Captain M(e) which is indeed not just an anagram but MACRO written backwards.
So the fact they essentially publicly announced they were a Macro user in addition to the data gathered by some fellow players proves one hundred percent this person cheated. DB better do something and do something fast because this will cause the biggest loss of profits and player base that makes any other incident in the past that angered users enough to close wallets and/or just leave look like nothing ever happened then.
They need to analyze it certainly and punish the player if they prove that he/she was using macros. But even with all of the evidence, it could be that the user is innocent even if the likelihood is quite small at this point but it is possible. I remember that people (falsely) accused Arachnia as well after a skirmish event and she didn't cheat. People made graphs then as well apparently "proving" without any doubt that she was cheating. Same thing happened the previous skirmish event. Will every single skirmish winner be accused for cheating?
When the top player is building more points than even the second and third place players, both of which had been playing their tails off, and increasing the VP gap even when all of those players are online at the same time, something seems off. There will always be people pointing fingers, but when literally every angle is pointing to only one reason and even those hard core players who know a human's limit to what can be done because they themselves have done it are saying someone definitely cheated, then there is no getting around that fact.
That theory isn't really holding any water. I don't know how exactly these macros would work but you can't be much faster than a human and I would probably bet that any macro would be slower than a human or the same speed. If both rank 2 and 3 were online and playing hard like you said and the VP gap was still increasing, I would probably assume that the #1 player was using better crew that allowed him/her to complete battles just a couple of seconds faster. That would make more sense to me. Or alternatively, the #1 player could be spending a lot of dil on the event to purchase the bonus rewards. I don't know if it is worth it but I can imagine that from a VP point, it would be worth it since it takes a lot less time than doing a full battle.
Macros are essentially bots, which are capable of moving much faster and be a lot more efficient than the fastest human. I can guarantee that all three had the same crew and the same ships for the battles. If I was under ten seconds per ship battle, so were they. With the animation and the activation times of crew, there is only so fast one can move to complete one round and move onto the next.
SilverRose said it precisely; a human will at least show some inconsistencies in game play for one reason or another. A Macro/bot will be consistent all the way through as the data shows 1st place was.
The account which won this event was basically scoring 100k per hour exactly. 100k per hour is a downright pathetic rate for a player with a good crew to be playing at manually, and if your crew is st the level you are doing that consistently you aren’t going to be winning every skirmish consistently as this player was.
At the start of the prior skirmish event both myself and another another player were averaging about 150k per hour since we were both playing every battle and moving on as fast as possible. The macros have to build in time to every battle for the 1 battle out of 50 when the opposing ship evades every attack and takes 12 seconds to kill instead of 7.
The macros do not move faster than humans because of that rng, they just do it for longer periods of time without sleeping or loss of effeciency.
Maybe.....to save future arguments and finger pointing (as no one has definite proof but graphs), DB should put Skirmishes on the shelf and work on some changes. Because ever since Skirmishes came out, accusations have run rampant and this is not healthy for the game or the players. Every Skirmish event we have posts calling out cheating. And I would seriously hope that 'trekkies' would not want to cheat. They may be somewhat nerdy (not me of course ) but they are usually better people that non Trekkie's. There is a better class of people here than other games.
Trista
And this is what I fear, that accusations will destroy this event type. I like skirmishes, it is the only event that is rewarding for everyone to continue playing even after tresholds.
Those who are saying your fleet would kick that person out if it was discovered someone was using a macro. Would you also turn them in to DB?
Not only is "that person" apparently using a macro, but the fleet name would appear to be an anagram of "Macro" missing a single letter. As if they created the fleet for only players using macros.
The paranoia is strong with this one. If you mean MACO then you need to look up what it stands for. It stands for Military Assault Command Operations and it is quite an old and established fleet.
Fleet ORCA Captain M(e) which is indeed not just an anagram but MACRO written backwards.
So the fact they essentially publicly announced they were a Macro user in addition to the data gathered by some fellow players proves one hundred percent this person cheated. DB better do something and do something fast because this will cause the biggest loss of profits and player base that makes any other incident in the past that angered users enough to close wallets and/or just leave look like nothing ever happened then.
They need to analyze it certainly and punish the player if they prove that he/she was using macros. But even with all of the evidence, it could be that the user is innocent even if the likelihood is quite small at this point but it is possible. I remember that people (falsely) accused Arachnia as well after a skirmish event and she didn't cheat. People made graphs then as well apparently "proving" without any doubt that she was cheating. Same thing happened the previous skirmish event. Will every single skirmish winner be accused for cheating?
When the top player is building more points than even the second and third place players, both of which had been playing their tails off, and increasing the VP gap even when all of those players are online at the same time, something seems off. There will always be people pointing fingers, but when literally every angle is pointing to only one reason and even those hard core players who know a human's limit to what can be done because they themselves have done it are saying someone definitely cheated, then there is no getting around that fact.
That theory isn't really holding any water. I don't know how exactly these macros would work but you can't be much faster than a human and I would probably bet that any macro would be slower than a human or the same speed. If both rank 2 and 3 were online and playing hard like you said and the VP gap was still increasing, I would probably assume that the #1 player was using better crew that allowed him/her to complete battles just a couple of seconds faster. That would make more sense to me. Or alternatively, the #1 player could be spending a lot of dil on the event to purchase the bonus rewards. I don't know if it is worth it but I can imagine that from a VP point, it would be worth it since it takes a lot less time than doing a full battle.
Macros are essentially bots, which are capable of moving much faster and be a lot more efficient than the fastest human. I can guarantee that all three had the same crew and the same ships for the battles. If I was under ten seconds per ship battle, so were they. With the animation and the activation times of crew, there is only so fast one can move to complete one round and move onto the next.
SilverRose said it precisely; a human will at least show some inconsistencies in game play for one reason or another. A Macro/bot will be consistent all the way through as the data shows 1st place was.
Sorry but I don't buy the "macros" are much faster thing. As a human, you are most likely faster or you are as fast as any not/macro would be. You are tapping and you can tap very fast as a human player even before the crew/ship abilities activate and so you are essentially tapping the moment when it activated. No bot or macro is going to be doing it faster than that (and most definitely not so much so that it would be noticable in VP gain). Yes inconsistency is pretty much a requirement and would be a decent indicator of some funny business going on.
The graph provided seems to agree with you, as do I. Humans will hit buttons faster, I have no doubt about this.
Those who are saying your fleet would kick that person out if it was discovered someone was using a macro. Would you also turn them in to DB?
I haven’t seen anyone answer this
I'm the big dog in my fleet, its why the founder made me Admiral.
So if someone runs in front of me because of cheating, there will be an issue.
Granted, there is someone who is giving 100% and keeping pace with me, even though I'm 10+ levels ahead of him. [He's also leading the best squadron in my fleet] (so Good for him!)
Those who are saying your fleet would kick that person out if it was discovered someone was using a macro. Would you also turn them in to DB?
I haven’t seen anyone answer this
I'm the big dog in my fleet, its why the founder made me Admiral.
So if someone runs in front of me because of cheating, there will be an issue.
Granted, there is someone who is giving 100% and keeping pace with me, even though I'm 10+ levels ahead of him. [He's also leading the best squadron in my fleet] (so Good for him!)
Well ultimately what I was getting at was if the player is kicked out of the fleet but not turned it, you’re telling him what he’s doing is ok. That player MUST be turned in.
Humans hit buttons faster. But macros hit buttons while you're asleep or eating or having a party with friends and getting too drunk to actually play the game. And said macro would gain VP at an incredibly consistent rate, which would in turn make the graph look like a straight line.
If you don't think the graph is enough proof, look at what the numbers mean. That's where the proof is. Not the numbers themselves, but what the numbers represent.
I had a few runs where I beat the skirmishes in 6s, 6s, 6s, 5s, and 5s. I had the Krayton, 5/5 Killy, Mirror Leeta, M-113 Creature, and Donatra. I found out that the fifth star on Killy makes 2s to 4s difference on the battles. Sure, I could do the battles in 30s or less, but that didn't matter because of all the animation. My chroniton stash was reduced by about 2,000. I ended up in 155th place because I had one solid day of playing and sporadic intervals the other days.
I like skirmishes. I like finding ways to speed up the grind. I like grinding through several iterations, then seeing if I can find something else better. I don't want Skirmishes to go away or get shelved. There's been several ideas posted to deter macros. I'd like to see one or several of those to be implemented.
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Yes, I would.
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I think the best way to modify and be effective is to not provide a single possible answer but rather, as has been said before, give 2 possible answers that randomly change places & only 1 of them lets you continue playing.
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I totally agree.
On another Topic:
I always wondered(or was afraid of)) if its possible, since steam is played on a PC, that some macro users might even change the code, so they can skip animations or cut them off early? Not sure its possible, but i d suspect animations are client side only. So this would be another unfair advantage.
I'm not the fleet leader, but as an officer I would recommend disclosing it to DB.
Why wouldn't a fleet do that? As an admiral, I definitely would kick them out, and my fleetmates know this. For any of our fleets. As far as notifying DB, I probably would as we run good honest fleets, but I also think DB actually can tell who does use macros. But all a player has to do is change his name to avoid scrutiny from other fleets or players. And it wouldn't be tattling, but rather it would be protecting the integrity of the game for all.
Trista
Agreed. Yes, I saw Barkley's graph. Inhumanly possible to keep scoring like that.
After a while, I can't stare at my screen to long or else I get headaches and eyes hurt.
I am, in poker terms a grinder( not related to the app). I am like the little old lady who sits at the vegas slot machine from morning to night. Im the guy who played Elder scrolls Oblivion and let a rat attack me 1million time (possible exaggeration) with my shield up to get my blocking skill up to 100. I just have that kind of mentality.
There is no secret to winning skirmishes, its just a grind. I had over 45k chrons saved up pre event. Fired up a supply kit and off i went.
"Wow, you must have RSI"- you would be right (even though i switch between using a mouse and stylus on my phone). "You must look like a zombie from the lack of sleep"- yip, but i have a snotty 2 year old so who wakes me up anyways. "How do you have the time to play that much?" - I had vacation time. I drank from the "victory is life" jem'hadar coolaid.
In the entire event i had the anti macro message pop up 0 times. I had "this event phase has ended" pop up prob 50 times. Somethings obviously not working. As SSR Barkleys posted graph strongly suggests, first place used a macro. Am i annoyed... for sure. I put in a lot of time and energy (with possible crippling arthritis in my near future) into this event. My fleetmate was essentially robbed of 1st position and my fleet the well earned honour of the treble( 1st in fleet,squadron and individual)
Im not gonna add fuel to the fire and dump on DB or make suggestions for a fix, more intelligent and eloqeant people already have and will. Just sort it out, its not a new problem, but it is a festering wound that needs healing.
I also spent the last 4 days grinding away, using vacation time from work. My goal was to get too 1500 and achieved it. Great job on your third p!ace finish. Next skirmish event tied with work vacation I may do the same as you. Again, congrats. No sarcasm intended.
That happens if you accidentally and/or without realising tap the ‘Begin Skirmish’ button twice. Maybe the server lagged for a second, or you thought your finger had missed.
Also, great level-headed post in general!
Not only is "that person" apparently using a macro, but the fleet name would appear to be an anagram of "Macro" missing a single letter. As if they created the fleet for only players using macros.
The paranoia is strong with this one. If you mean MACO then you need to look up what it stands for. It stands for Military Assault Command Operations and it is quite an old and established fleet.
I am the fleet leader and I would do it. I despise liars and cheats. The tedium of repetitive grinding events is bad enough. A cheat that makes your grinding even more meaningless... Keelhauling is a time honoured tradition.
Fleet ORCA Captain M(e) which is indeed not just an anagram but MACRO written backwards.
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Oh so it wasn't MACO. Yes, that does seem a very unusual and would perhaps be one coincidence too many to dismiss.
So the fact they essentially publicly announced they were a Macro user in addition to the data gathered by some fellow players proves one hundred percent this person cheated. DB better do something and do something fast because this will cause the biggest loss of profits and player base that makes any other incident in the past that angered users enough to close wallets and/or just leave look like nothing ever happened then.
DB: Do Better.
Member of Starship Trista.
They need to analyze it certainly and punish the player if they prove that he/she was using macros. But even with all of the evidence, it could be that the user is innocent even if the likelihood is quite small at this point but it is possible. I remember that people (falsely) accused Arachnia as well after a skirmish event and she didn't cheat. People made graphs then as well apparently "proving" without any doubt that she was cheating. Same thing happened the previous skirmish event. Will every single skirmish winner be accused for cheating?
When the top player is building more points than even the second and third place players, both of which had been playing their tails off, and increasing the VP gap even when all of those players are online at the same time, something seems off. There will always be people pointing fingers, but when literally every angle is pointing to only one reason and even those hard core players who know a human's limit to what can be done because they themselves have done it are saying someone definitely cheated, then there is no getting around that fact.
DB: Do Better.
Member of Starship Trista.
So far, we've seen several event winners that are suspected bots perform with an r2 coefficient of 1. Paladin, who won last skirmish, beat the bots because he was more efficient - and while he had a coefficient close to 1, his r2 was not exactly 1 like the others have been.
So, really, the trendline is what's convincing. Folks who are account sharing or using a macro are able to play more consistently than people who have basic human needs, like showering or, hell, pausing to wipe after using the rest room every once in a while. That will show in a trendline. If it doesn't, it means that something else is up.
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That theory isn't really holding any water. I don't know how exactly these macros would work but you can't be much faster than a human and I would probably bet that any macro would be slower than a human or the same speed. If both rank 2 and 3 were online and playing hard like you said and the VP gap was still increasing, I would probably assume that the #1 player was using better crew that allowed him/her to complete battles just a couple of seconds faster. That would make more sense to me. Or alternatively, the #1 player could be spending a lot of dil on the event to purchase the bonus rewards. I don't know if it is worth it but I can imagine that from a VP point, it would be worth it since it takes a lot less time than doing a full battle.
Macros are essentially bots, which are capable of moving much faster and be a lot more efficient than the fastest human. I can guarantee that all three had the same crew and the same ships for the battles. If I was under ten seconds per ship battle, so were they. With the animation and the activation times of crew, there is only so fast one can move to complete one round and move onto the next.
SilverRose said it precisely; a human will at least show some inconsistencies in game play for one reason or another. A Macro/bot will be consistent all the way through as the data shows 1st place was.
DB: Do Better.
Member of Starship Trista.
Trista
Sorry but I don't buy the "macros" are much faster thing. As a human, you are most likely faster or you are as fast as any not/macro would be. You are tapping and you can tap very fast as a human player even before the crew/ship abilities activate and so you are essentially tapping the moment when it activated. No bot or macro is going to be doing it faster than that (and most definitely not so much so that it would be noticable in VP gain). Yes inconsistency is pretty much a requirement and would be a decent indicator of some funny business going on.
The account which won this event was basically scoring 100k per hour exactly. 100k per hour is a downright pathetic rate for a player with a good crew to be playing at manually, and if your crew is st the level you are doing that consistently you aren’t going to be winning every skirmish consistently as this player was.
At the start of the prior skirmish event both myself and another another player were averaging about 150k per hour since we were both playing every battle and moving on as fast as possible. The macros have to build in time to every battle for the 1 battle out of 50 when the opposing ship evades every attack and takes 12 seconds to kill instead of 7.
The macros do not move faster than humans because of that rng, they just do it for longer periods of time without sleeping or loss of effeciency.
And this is what I fear, that accusations will destroy this event type. I like skirmishes, it is the only event that is rewarding for everyone to continue playing even after tresholds.
The graph provided seems to agree with you, as do I. Humans will hit buttons faster, I have no doubt about this.
I'm the big dog in my fleet, its why the founder made me Admiral.
So if someone runs in front of me because of cheating, there will be an issue.
Granted, there is someone who is giving 100% and keeping pace with me, even though I'm 10+ levels ahead of him. [He's also leading the best squadron in my fleet] (so Good for him!)
Well ultimately what I was getting at was if the player is kicked out of the fleet but not turned it, you’re telling him what he’s doing is ok. That player MUST be turned in.
If you don't think the graph is enough proof, look at what the numbers mean. That's where the proof is. Not the numbers themselves, but what the numbers represent.
I had a few runs where I beat the skirmishes in 6s, 6s, 6s, 5s, and 5s. I had the Krayton, 5/5 Killy, Mirror Leeta, M-113 Creature, and Donatra. I found out that the fifth star on Killy makes 2s to 4s difference on the battles. Sure, I could do the battles in 30s or less, but that didn't matter because of all the animation. My chroniton stash was reduced by about 2,000. I ended up in 155th place because I had one solid day of playing and sporadic intervals the other days.
I like skirmishes. I like finding ways to speed up the grind. I like grinding through several iterations, then seeing if I can find something else better. I don't want Skirmishes to go away or get shelved. There's been several ideas posted to deter macros. I'd like to see one or several of those to be implemented.