I started to wear a mask, I had one for previous years where air quality was bad, well before it was recommended. And I will continue to do so.
I expect, I hope, it will become mandatory as I believe it will be a necessary step to allow less sheltering in place.
It has been fun to see how creative some people have been in that regard
Yes! I’ve seen masks that give you a dog face and all other sorts. Some areas have already extended the shelter in place into May so hold on to those masks!
Washington state is through May 4th, and the Governor is already talking about the step to get people back to work.
I was just talking to my local* friends about how fortunate that we all were to either be "essential workers" or able to work remotely. I feel pretty terrible for all those people who are uncertain about their future. I hope they are able to get back to work soon in a safe manner.
Edit: Specified "local" friends to differentiate between them and my friends here.
I have worked in two hospitals, and some kitchens in my life. I have a considerable familiarity with infection and contamination control. I try to maintain a distance from most conversations considering such, because the average person who is not as familiar tends to have a personal "opinion" on how things should work and I find it monumentally frustrating debating the facts versus everyone believing opinions are facts. If you don't agree with something that follows I understand it and accept that. However, I am speaking from experience and study, not facebook and YouTube.
On the topic of the identity of some one who is ill. You have the right to know if you are in danger. You do not have the right to know who. Privacy isn't just about feelings, it can also be about safety. People tend to react out of fear when presented with a warning of danger. That fear can result not only in harmful verbal exchanges, but physical ones as well. Being informed some one has been quarantined people tend to want to blame the person. That person didn't try to get sick. During the incubation period symptoms do not exist, so it is impossible to know if you or anyone around you is ill. If there is a danger some one has been exposed they should know ASAP that they should quarantine. Who and how isn't useful information. No one intends to get ill. Not you and not the person that gave it to you. Business and crediters and family responsiblities tend to place an certain level of expectation on us all. Working ill is not uncommon even though it should be. The same boss that gets upset everyone is ill, is the same boss that cuts your shifts if you call on sick. I'm not pointing at anyone, it's a general example.
On the topic of masks. You need to understand the point and use in an infection or contamination situation. They are called PPE or personal protective equipment, but the purpose and use of them is ICE or infection containment. A lot of people are rolling their eyes I'm sure. Trust me, I see it all the time.
Example. Why do you were gloves to prepare food? The point is to prevent cross contamination. But most people only where them to keep their own hands clean. You have no idea how many times I've seen some one almost die from an allergic reaction because the person wearing the gloves was thinking about not getting dirty instead of what foods they were cross contaminating.
If you are ill. You should where a mask to catch what you exhale. Don't touch the mask, don't touch your face. When you need to, change the mask and then wash your hands. The mask is to contain the infection or contamination to you.
(This is the part people tend to have trouble with) If you are not ill. The point of Infection/Chemical Containment Equipment is to deal with a person or mess without it getting onto or into you. It is removed immediately upon leaving the area to prevent it getting beyond the site you want it contained. I know this sounds simple. But consider. You walk through a store, leave, get into your car and go home. Where is the mask? Did you put it in your pocket or purse? If the virus was in the store and it got on your mask, after touching it you, your pocket, everything in your purse, your keys, the wheel, your bags when you leave the car and everything you touch. Watch any video you want of an airport, mall, sidewalk, where people are wearing masks. They don't put them on properly. They reposition the mask constantly. They touch surfaces and then the mask or themselves. Putting on a mask simply gives most people a sense of protection, but because they don't entirely understand the whole process it doesn't really matter. The mask does nothing to actually protect them because they are constantly touching it and reusing it. I'm not saying masks are useless, I'm saying that people make up their own rules about how to use it and they aren't informed by actual professionals. They scratch their own nose and then touch themselves and everything else because they only think about it as not getting dirty.
For some I'm preaching to the choir. I'm not intending to insult anyone. But I'm going to close this with a work story from a hospital. It's from a long term care. The care staff have an interesting habit of double gloving to bath patients. Wearing two (or more) pairs of gloves, they do a thorough job of it. Which usually involves their hands and forearms fully in the water. These nurses fully believe they are protected. Ten minutes or more with dirty bath water inside their gloves, held against any potential breaks in their skin. Then they take those gloves off and touch everything in the room because they imagine wearing the gloves protected them.
I'm not attempting to mock masks. I'm not saying they are useless. And when I say some people use them wrong, it may or may not describe you. The point I want to impart is that the way each person uses PPE is not always well informed. A lot of people think it's as simple as putting on a mask in public. If it makes people feel better I there is nothing wrong with that. But, for my part, I assume that even people with masks are as dangerous as the people without them. Because a lot of the time, they are. Not maliciously. There is no requirement for people to seek a professional instruction, and the internet is so full of people who want to tell you what to do.
People also react out of fear of the unknown. The guy has the right to know whether it was the guy who worked next to him or the guy who worked on the other side of the building. It’s always about the one and not the many isn’t it? Like how the office can’t have a Christmas tree because one person is not Christian. Forget about the 30 people that are. How they feel doesn’t mean anything. It’s all about the one guy who might cry if he comes into an office with a Christmas tree
This is a whole new thing for us. It’s something we have never experienced. It’s a huge change and we need to change with it. The situation calls for a re-evaluation on some of our thinking and this is something we need to reconsider. Life is all about change, adjustments. If you don’t make those changes you will get left behind in an out of date world. Risking lives to protect anonymity just blows my mind and I won’t do it. I tell my people who has or had it and yes, before I went back to work I told them I am 85% sure I had it
People also react out of fear of the unknown. The guy has the right to know whether it was the guy who worked next to him or the guy who worked on the other side of the building. It’s always about the one and not the many isn’t it? Like how the office can’t have a Christmas tree because one person is not Christian. Forget about the 30 people that are. How they feel doesn’t mean anything. It’s all about the one guy who might cry if he comes into an office with a Christmas tree
The right to know thing can be covered by "you worked closely with this individual" or "you may have shared common areas with this individual." But you are correct - the company owes the individual at least that much.
As to the office Christmas tree, then you get into equal space for different religions, the cost of that space to the company, and businesses just tend to say, "we can save X dollars by doing nothing and cause less controversies," so that's the route that they tend to go. The 30 vs 1 thing starts to get into "tyranny of the majority" territory. If there's one place I don't want to have that discussion, it's in the Star Trek fandom. You get into "the needs of the many" and Borg collective vs individuality and a whole host of things that I don't want to touch with a 10-foot pole.
I saw the press conference about re-openning the US economy yesterday. Something about phases and testing. I'm sure it will be different from state to state. I kind of look forward to hearing what my state's governor will say about our state's plans to move forward. I also wonder how many companies will decide "we can save X dollars on office space (and toilet paper ) if we keep people working remotely." My wife seems to think her company may turn in that direction. I'm not sure about my company, but I hope they keep the option open for higher risk individuals. So many questions about what the new normal will look like. 🤔
People also react out of fear of the unknown. The guy has the right to know whether it was the guy who worked next to him or the guy who worked on the other side of the building. It’s always about the one and not the many isn’t it? Like how the office can’t have a Christmas tree because one person is not Christian. Forget about the 30 people that are. How they feel doesn’t mean anything. It’s all about the one guy who might cry if he comes into an office with a Christmas tree
The right to know thing can be covered by "you worked closely with this individual" or "you may have shared common areas with this individual." But you are correct - the company owes the individual at least that much.
As to the office Christmas tree, then you get into equal space for different religions, the cost of that space to the company, and businesses just tend to say, "we can save X dollars by doing nothing and cause less controversies," so that's the route that they tend to go. The 30 vs 1 thing starts to get into "tyranny of the majority" territory. If there's one place I don't want to have that discussion, it's in the Star Trek fandom. You get into "the needs of the many" and Borg collective vs individuality and a whole host of things that I don't want to touch with a 10-foot pole.
I saw the press conference about re-openning the US economy yesterday. Something about phases and testing. I'm sure it will be different from state to state. I kind of look forward to hearing what my state's governor will say about our state's plans to move forward. I also wonder how many companies will decide "we can save X dollars on office space (and toilet paper ) if we keep people working remotely." My wife seems to think her company may turn in that direction. I'm not sure about my company, but I hope they keep the option open for higher risk individuals. So many questions about what the new normal will look like. 🤔
You’re right. The 30 people should not have a say, just the one. The one should have tyranny over the 30. In some cases they know this is the way of America and they use it to their advantage
This example may sound like an exaggeration, but I believe it has merit. The laws and practices around "whistleblowers." People who don't feel safe coming forward simply won't. And, if everyone has the right to know, then we have a serious debate about confidentiality with lawyers and doctors.
I entirely understand the idea of wanting to know who may be involved in the chain of contact that might have put you in danger. I respect that opinion. I'm to saying I'm right factually or ethically. There may be legal realities involved, however, in general, my opinion is that I respectfully disagree. My opinion is also that the desire to know is rooted in a lack of trust in others that the other people in the chain have been handled adequately and are acting responsibly. I'm not judging, it's a universal worry, we all have it.
Unless there was a malicious intent, there is as equally likely the reality that every person in the chain of contact was entirely unaware. My question to knowing who is in that chain is this, how does knowing impact recovery? Who just happens to be in the chain before you doesn't have any impact on your recovery. But I can understand the worry that whoever did it may still be passing it. I don't believe the right to identify exists unless there was an intent to harm or willful negligence. It is a trust issue, and I can't tell you who and when to trust. Not telling everyone who is in the chain isn't about protecting the person. What you do today impacts how other people will expect things to go down in the future.
I do understand the snowflake point as well. But I don't think this is entirely (though perhaps in a small part) the same thing. This debate would take up considerably more space. It is indeed interesting and quite hypocritical to see someone demanding to display their symbols while decrying the sight of other's symbols. It is this debate that informs my aversion to any exposition regarding rights. Whether the right to know or the right to not be exposed to symbols of a faith against your own. It is a charged word.
If you believe others will be in danger because some one isn't being properly dealt with, I get it. If knowing would have a quantifiable impact going forward, perhaps people should know. I prefer to deal less with rights and more with how constructive something is. Are you(royal you, not specific) involved with and responsible for ensuring people are acting appropriately? Then certainly you should know. If you art the person responsible, it's a less cut and dry about the need to know.
People also react out of fear of the unknown. The guy has the right to know whether it was the guy who worked next to him or the guy who worked on the other side of the building. It’s always about the one and not the many isn’t it? Like how the office can’t have a Christmas tree because one person is not Christian. Forget about the 30 people that are. How they feel doesn’t mean anything. It’s all about the one guy who might cry if he comes into an office with a Christmas tree
The right to know thing can be covered by "you worked closely with this individual" or "you may have shared common areas with this individual." But you are correct - the company owes the individual at least that much.
As to the office Christmas tree, then you get into equal space for different religions, the cost of that space to the company, and businesses just tend to say, "we can save X dollars by doing nothing and cause less controversies," so that's the route that they tend to go. The 30 vs 1 thing starts to get into "tyranny of the majority" territory. If there's one place I don't want to have that discussion, it's in the Star Trek fandom. You get into "the needs of the many" and Borg collective vs individuality and a whole host of things that I don't want to touch with a 10-foot pole.
I saw the press conference about re-openning the US economy yesterday. Something about phases and testing. I'm sure it will be different from state to state. I kind of look forward to hearing what my state's governor will say about our state's plans to move forward. I also wonder how many companies will decide "we can save X dollars on office space (and toilet paper ) if we keep people working remotely." My wife seems to think her company may turn in that direction. I'm not sure about my company, but I hope they keep the option open for higher risk individuals. So many questions about what the new normal will look like. 🤔
You’re right. The 30 people should not have a say, just the one. The one should have tyranny over the 30. In some cases they know this is the way of America and they use it to their advantage
That's not what I said. I said it's a controversial issue and that I didn't want to touch it with a 10-foot pole.
This example may sound like an exaggeration, but I believe it has merit. The laws and practices around "whistleblowers." People who don't feel safe coming forward simply won't. And, if everyone has the right to know, then we have a serious debate about confidentiality with lawyers and doctors.
I entirely understand the idea of wanting to know who may be involved in the chain of contact that might have put you in danger. I respect that opinion. I'm to saying I'm right factually or ethically. There may be legal realities involved, however, in general, my opinion is that I respectfully disagree. My opinion is also that the desire to know is rooted in a lack of trust in others that the other people in the chain have been handled adequately and are acting responsibly. I'm not judging, it's a universal worry, we all have it.
Unless there was a malicious intent, there is as equally likely the reality that every person in the chain of contact was entirely unaware. My question to knowing who is in that chain is this, how does knowing impact recovery? Who just happens to be in the chain before you doesn't have any impact on your recovery. But I can understand the worry that whoever did it may still be passing it. I don't believe the right to identify exists unless there was an intent to harm or willful negligence. It is a trust issue, and I can't tell you who and when to trust. Not telling everyone who is in the chain isn't about protecting the person. What you do today impacts how other people will expect things to go down in the future.
I do understand the snowflake point as well. But I don't think this is entirely (though perhaps in a small part) the same thing. This debate would take up considerably more space. It is indeed interesting and quite hypocritical to see someone demanding to display their symbols while decrying the sight of other's symbols. It is this debate that informs my aversion to any exposition regarding rights. Whether the right to know or the right to not be exposed to symbols of a faith against your own. It is a charged word.
If you believe others will be in danger because some one isn't being properly dealt with, I get it. If knowing would have a quantifiable impact going forward, perhaps people should know. I prefer to deal less with rights and more with how constructive something is. Are you(royal you, not specific) involved with and responsible for ensuring people are acting appropriately? Then certainly you should know. If you art the person responsible, it's a less cut and dry about the need to know.
That is part of it. The company I work for, the two people who run it in particular, are shady and do shady things on a daily basis. I have known this from the first day I worked here. They have also asked me to do shady things and I have refused every single time. They can’t do anything against me because if they do, the corporate office will not support them and tell them and me I did the right thing. So there are huge trust issues between the employees and higher management here. I do what I feel is best and sometimes that conflicts with what those two who are over the warehouse want but again, their hands are tied because they know I am doing the right thing and they are not. My last job, I towed the company line because I did trust them to do the right thing. Here I do not tow that line because I don’t have that trust.
My main point was this is an unprecedented time and in times like these we have to do what we have to do. We have to change with what is going on and to refuse to do that is not the mentality of an evolved species. That is the mentality of a species that has gone extinct.
My uncle lives in Northern Italy, and recently shared a government plan to start opening things up. It's broken into phases, and they don't wrap up until 2021. It looked pretty reasonable to me.
I suspect US restrictions will begin easing back a bit in a month or so, but probably not all that much until the end of the school year. Even if statewide restrictions are substantially downgraded over the summer, I bet a lot of businesses that were able to transition to WFH will be cautious about bringing folks back into the office.
Of course, so much of this rests on the ability to effectively test. I get the impressive that COVID-19 is a bit tricky in this regard because some tests are tricked by other coranviruses. While there are plenty of nasty members of this family (SARS, MERS) the more benign members are one cause for the common cold. Although better a false positive than a false negative in this situation.
Six degrees in Inter-species Veterinary Medicine. Treating all manner of critters, from Tribbles to Humans.
Our local library is now "closed until further notice". They were supposed to re-open this week. Checked out items were extended to April 15th. Now they are checked out through June 30th. I do not think this is one of those things that will resolve quickly.
Everyone stay safe. Use PPE every time, and use it correctly. We are separated into sheltering in place, but we are all in this together.
I agree with the above statement speculating that WfH will become the possible new "normal" for any job that can be done that way. The man from the Staunton Social Security office called me yesterday to get me set up for SSI. They are working from home, now. My next appointment with the Pain Clinic will be a phone call......
Our world may be changed forever. Even when this pandemic ends. As prophylaxis against the next mutated disease organism.
"The truth is like a lion; you don't have to defend it. Let it loose; it will defend itself."
With this crisis we're able to see the best and the worst of the people. Or like someone said (I don't remember who, I'm sorry), we see the best from the best people, and the worst from the worst people. Today, what I'm going to share belong to the second ones, unofrtunately.
Lately, some doctors, nurses and even supermarket workers have been reported in the media the "kindness" of their neighbors. They found signs or letters in their buildings, or in the door of their homes, like this one.
In this letter addressed to one doctor, one neighbor praise him for his work, but at the same time the neighbor ask him to considerer to go to live a special residence enabled for the health workers because there are children and old people living in their building.
So, you're doing a great work, but I don't want you here, so please get out. "Think in your neighbors", he said.
Other people in the same situation found a bottle of bleach in front of their door.
Fortunately these are isolated cases, and the great majority of the people is much more civic than these soulless.
Unfortunately similar things have happened in Italy too. There's been one case in particular, where three paramedics from the South volunteered in northern hospitals (the North ist the most affected area here) and when they went back home, after two weeks of non-stop work with critical cases, they rented an apartment to self-quarantine for 14 days. They shared a video where they explained how the other inhabitants of the building tried to get them to move out (and in a less polite way than the one seen in this picture). Some people's arrogance and entitlement seems to have no limits
If some is going to take what I said into the world I'd like to clean up some of it (a reread made me wonder if I was half asleep, lol)
Here is how to visualize the use of masks and gloves. Your car's engine is intermittently spraying oil. So you put a screen to catch the oil so it doesn't spray on the road or other cars. No matter where you go that oil is contained to your car. That's if you are sick.
Now lets assume this issue of oil may be affecting some one else. If you put the same screen on your car, it will prevent other compromised cars from spraying oil into your engine, but it will still get on the rest of the car. You don't want to touch the outside of your car and then your eyes, nose, or mouth.
Whether your car is spraying oil, or some one else's oil is on your car, if you adjust the screen, you are going to get oil on your hands.
Lets assume you are a mechanic. While repairing a car that is spraying oil, you need to prevent the oil from getting onto or into you. And you want to make sure you get any of that oil on the other clean cars. So you put on equipment. When you are done working on that car you have to remove all that equipment in a way that ensures you don't get any of the oil on yourself, then wash your hands to make sure none of the oil gets onto anything or anyone outside the room.
Make sure to consider, that while it is called Personal Protective Equipment, the purpose is much larger. The purpose is containing something, not simply to protect. Think long term, not just immediate situation. If you take a drive in the country your windscreen will be covered in bugs. That's what happens when you are wearing a mask to prevent getting sick. The bugs don't just disappear when you get home.
This is how the virus is getting spread. Not by people directly coughing near you. But by people collecting it on themselves and tracking it everywhere they go. And this is my issue with masks and the false sense of security they give people. I don't say this to prevent people from using PPE or going out. If you know a nurse or some one familiar with how to properly don and dof equipment, ask them how to do it.
For me this isn't as difficult because of my allergies. I have a severe (potentially fatal) reaction to cat, dog, and horse dander. Especially on the summer, people can take their pets anywhere now. So anything I touch may have dander on it (people with a peanut allergy will understand). I have to be hyper aware of my hands wherever I go to ensure I don't bring dander to my face. People who have pet their pet have it on their hands and they move around the world. I do a lot of handwashing while outside. It is much the same for the virus.
It's sad to see people reacting out of fear of the virus. Awareness and careful consideration of how you interact with the environment around you goes a lot further than fear.
In some parts of Italy (including where I live) it's now compulsory to wear a mask for some activities or in general when leaving the house, because the epidemic is so widespread that everyone is potentially infected and contagious. And it would probably be a good thing if everyone everywhere was wearing them (correctly) but since there aren't enough of them available to allow people to change them every few hours every day, it's a bit of a double-edged sword. I've seen people wear them in random ways (with their nose out), touch them and not keep the recommended distance from others when wearing them. And those who can't work from home and have to leave their house every day will have to reuse them eventually. Not sure if the home-made ones that can be washed provide any protection whatsoever to those who are wearing them or to others, but it would be nice to know, because I've seen lots of those too.
This is the video of the WHO that explains how and when to use them. Unfortunately it was already hard to apply to Italy's situation by the time it was uploaded.
As for the fear argument, I feel like fear is being used as an excuse for way too many things way too often. We all experience fear and we all have stupid reactions from time to time, but the kind of reactions we have say something about our character too. Someone who harasses their neighbors because they're healthcare workers is not someone that I would want to be around in general, no matter what their state of mind is.
Good morning, everyone
Let's continue to stay wise, I use wise specifically because there is a lot of strength coming from wisdom.
Thank you, Exanimus for the great analogy.
While I am all onboard with wearing face coverings, I agree that more context/advice should be provided by city officials when they make their recommendations/rulings.
We need to continuously educate ourselves and others
Today i'll share a beautiful story relative to a taxi driver. I know everywhere all around the world there are taxi drivers that offers free rides for many things and fot many people. But this story is a bit special. I copy-paste it from an online article in English.
Hundreds of people around the world were trapped by the coronavirus. This is the case of a young Italian woman, an Erasmus student in Bilbao [northern Spain]. Natural from Veneto, the student, who had been in the Basque Country for two months, decided to return to their country of origin. That is where the odyssey began.
He traveled to Madrid, hoping to fly to Paris and from there to Italy. However, problems with the stopover in the French capital left the young woman ashore in Barajas [Madrid airport]. Alone and in an unknown city, she contacted a colleague from the university to ask how she could return to Bilbao. So this he called his taxi driver friend Kepa Amantegi to know if she knew someone who could take her from Madrid [a taxi trip from Madrid to Bilbao would cost 600-700 euros].
So, this young man from the Basque town of Durango offered to bring the student back for free. Three hours later, she left the Barajas airport, riding Amantegi’s taxi. Almost 400 kilometers [248 milles] of journey between the heart of the Plateau and the Cantabrian Sea in which the Venetian explained to the driver that at the embassy they had told him that even until June he could not return. “The truth is that the story was dramatic. I told him that if it was in my hand, I would take it with the taxi to Italy,” said Amantegi.
Upon arriving in Bilbao, Amantegi brought the student closer to her home in the city. However, the problems continued. “She wanted to go to her house, where she lived with her roommate. However, when she called, no one opened it for her,” said the taxi driver.
The young woman had nowhere to sleep, which is why she went to the taxi driver’s home in Durango. From there they would prepare the return to Italy. On Wednesday night, April 8, they spoke with the Ertzaintza [regional police of the Basque Country] and on Thursday they filled out all the papers with the Italian Embassy. On Friday they started towards the transalpine country.
Between Durango and Montebello, the locality of the Erasmus student, there are almost 1500 kilometers away [932 milles]. A road that crosses the whole of southern France until reaching Italy, specifically Lombardy, the region most affected by the coronavirus. A long trip in which, according to Amantegi, they had no setbacks. “With the papers from the embassy they let us move without problem. Furthermore, in addition to the border between Spain and France, they only stopped me once. On my return at the height of Toulouse, the gendarmerie saw me alone and asked me to find out why. You get nervous, but with the documentation and the car in order, nothing happened,“ said the driver.
Hours later, both glimpsed the sign indicating they were entering Montebello. There, the young woman’s family wanted reward Amantegi, to which he repeatedly refused. He simply stays with his appreciation.
Today i'll share a beautiful story relative to a taxi driver. I know everywhere all around the world there are taxi drivers that offers free rides for many things and fot many people. But this story is a bit special. I copy-paste it from an online article in English.
Hundreds of people around the world were trapped by the coronavirus. This is the case of a young Italian woman, an Erasmus student in Bilbao [northern Spain]. Natural from Veneto, the student, who had been in the Basque Country for two months, decided to return to their country of origin. That is where the odyssey began.
He traveled to Madrid, hoping to fly to Paris and from there to Italy. However, problems with the stopover in the French capital left the young woman ashore in Barajas [Madrid airport]. Alone and in an unknown city, she contacted a colleague from the university to ask how she could return to Bilbao. So this he called his taxi driver friend Kepa Amantegi to know if she knew someone who could take her from Madrid [a taxi trip from Madrid to Bilbao would cost 600-700 euros].
So, this young man from the Basque town of Durango offered to bring the student back for free. Three hours later, she left the Barajas airport, riding Amantegi’s taxi. Almost 400 kilometers [248 milles] of journey between the heart of the Plateau and the Cantabrian Sea in which the Venetian explained to the driver that at the embassy they had told him that even until June he could not return. “The truth is that the story was dramatic. I told him that if it was in my hand, I would take it with the taxi to Italy,” said Amantegi.
Upon arriving in Bilbao, Amantegi brought the student closer to her home in the city. However, the problems continued. “She wanted to go to her house, where she lived with her roommate. However, when she called, no one opened it for her,” said the taxi driver.
The young woman had nowhere to sleep, which is why she went to the taxi driver’s home in Durango. From there they would prepare the return to Italy. On Wednesday night, April 8, they spoke with the Ertzaintza [regional police of the Basque Country] and on Thursday they filled out all the papers with the Italian Embassy. On Friday they started towards the transalpine country.
Between Durango and Montebello, the locality of the Erasmus student, there are almost 1500 kilometers away [932 milles]. A road that crosses the whole of southern France until reaching Italy, specifically Lombardy, the region most affected by the coronavirus. A long trip in which, according to Amantegi, they had no setbacks. “With the papers from the embassy they let us move without problem. Furthermore, in addition to the border between Spain and France, they only stopped me once. On my return at the height of Toulouse, the gendarmerie saw me alone and asked me to find out why. You get nervous, but with the documentation and the car in order, nothing happened,“ said the driver.
Hours later, both glimpsed the sign indicating they were entering Montebello. There, the young woman’s family wanted reward Amantegi, to which he repeatedly refused. He simply stays with his appreciation.
So my wife’s work is now overrun with COVID. They took a let’s ignore it and hope it goes away approach to huge failure. The manager who had it but they couldn’t talk about? He’s in the ICU on a ventilator. Then the girl who hands out the orders has it. She comes into contact with everyone in the warehouse. About 400 people. They now have 14 cases. My wife came home and cried like I never heard her cry before. She said she is terrified. She’s never been so scared in her life, not even when we had our daughter who had to spend 50 days in a specialty NICU. I will never forget what she said. “Allen if you get it you are healthy and you will be ok. I have asthma and diabetes. If I get it I’m not going to make it”. At that point I couldn’t help it. I cried with her. So even after all of this, her works big solution? “The employees will decide for us”. They expect everyone to be so scared that they will all stop coming to work. And that is their plan. Keep working until the employees go on a pseudo strike. It’s an apparel warehouse. It doesn’t need to be open. Another case of them choosing the business over the lives of their employees and families.
So my wife’s work is now overrun with COVID. They took a let’s ignore it and hope it goes away approach to huge failure. The manager who had it but they couldn’t talk about? He’s in the ICU on a ventilator. Then the girl who hands out the orders has it. She comes into contact with everyone in the warehouse. About 400 people. They now have 14 cases. My wife came home and cried like I never heard her cry before. She said she is terrified. She’s never been so scared in her life, not even when we had our daughter who had to spend 50 days in a specialty NICU. I will never forget what she said. “Allen if you get it you are healthy and you will be ok. I have asthma and diabetes. If I get it I’m not going to make it”. At that point I couldn’t help it. I cried with her. So even after all of this, her works big solution? “The employees will decide for us”. They expect everyone to be so scared that they will all stop coming to work. And that is their plan. Keep working until the employees go on a pseudo strike. It’s an apparel warehouse. It doesn’t need to be open. Another case of them choosing the business over the lives of their employees and families.
I don't want to stop patronizing this apparel company in case your wife chooses to continue working there. If she doesn't, I'll PM you to get the name so I don't shop there. I don't like Kirspy Kreme donuts, but I bought some when they started giving them away to health care workers. TP/WRG seems to be doing things right, so I still spend on the game.
Companies need to be responsible about this. No, we don't want them shutting employees out of work. But we also don't want companies knowingly putting workers at risk. I respect that it may not be an obvious or easy balance, but it's not to much to ask that an effort be made.
So my wife’s work is now overrun with COVID. They took a let’s ignore it and hope it goes away approach to huge failure. The manager who had it but they couldn’t talk about? He’s in the ICU on a ventilator. Then the girl who hands out the orders has it. She comes into contact with everyone in the warehouse. About 400 people. They now have 14 cases. My wife came home and cried like I never heard her cry before. She said she is terrified. She’s never been so scared in her life, not even when we had our daughter who had to spend 50 days in a specialty NICU. I will never forget what she said. “Allen if you get it you are healthy and you will be ok. I have asthma and diabetes. If I get it I’m not going to make it”. At that point I couldn’t help it. I cried with her. So even after all of this, her works big solution? “The employees will decide for us”. They expect everyone to be so scared that they will all stop coming to work. And that is their plan. Keep working until the employees go on a pseudo strike. It’s an apparel warehouse. It doesn’t need to be open. Another case of them choosing the business over the lives of their employees and families.
I don't want to stop patronizing this apparel company in case your wife chooses to continue working there. If she doesn't, I'll PM you to get the name so I don't shop there. I don't like Kirspy Kreme donuts, but I bought some when they started giving them away to health care workers. TP/WRG seems to be doing things right, so I still spend on the game.
Companies need to be responsible about this. No, we don't want them shutting employees out of work. But we also don't want companies knowingly putting workers at risk. I respect that it may not be an obvious or easy balance, but it's not to much to ask that an effort be made.
The place is falling apart around them and they are just watching it. They are almost out of managers. So the ones still there will get burned out and at huge risk.
You have been a very cool voice on this thread and have shared some information I appreciate knowing. Thank you from the bottom of my heart
Thank you very much, I really appreciate your words. I don't write in the forum as much I wanted because I don't speak English very well, that's why many of my posts are only images. Thank you again!
By the way, here the lockdown has been extended until May 10 (at least), but starting on April 26, the children until 14 years could go to get out and walk. Details are not clear yet, but there are good news.
You have been a very cool voice on this thread and have shared some information I appreciate knowing. Thank you from the bottom of my heart
Thank you very much, I really appreciate your words. I don't write in the forum as much I wanted because I don't speak English very well, that's why many of my posts are only images. Thank you again!
Your very welcome. And your English is very easy for me to understand. You write it very well so don’t be hesitant. You’re a great contributor and I hope you continue to be
Let me also say that I know I said earlier that I’m 85% sure we had it already but we’ve all played gauntlet. That 15% uncertainty is a gamble that you could very well lose
So I do have a positive vibe story to share. I am on Facebook pretty much solely for the 15 Cairn Terrier groups I belong to and because I have a page for my boy called Banjos Travels. Yes. I am that guy. As I’m sure many know by now, dogs are my happy place. If anyone wants to see how I really am in real life, feel free to stop by and give it a look or even follow. I post a few times a week. I started it as a way for Banjo and I to bond by going around our town in Lockport, which has a very rich and preserved history, and describing all the cool places we walked to, with Banjo in every picture of the landmarks of course. There’s the train station that has been in operation since 1860, which Abraham Lincoln’s funeral train passed through, there’s churches from the 1830’s, the canal which Lincoln himself oversaw the construction of, all sorts of things. Once we saw them all I stopped, but people kept messaging me asking what was going on with us so I kept it running, four years now. Now it has become quite a photo album of us and of watching my daughter growing up. Ok I went on a little bit. On to the heartwarming part.
So every night before Edith goes to bed, we sit in a rocking chair. I scroll through my Facebook full of nothing but Cairn Terrier pictures and videos, and she just loves it! She calls our boys (Banjo and now Einstein is part of our family) “Buddy” because she always hears me call them buddy. So she calls every dog “buddy”. As I scroll, she points and smiles and says “buddy”. It’s a really cool little ritual. So I put up a small post on all 15 of the Cairn Terrier group pages saying thank you everyone just for being awesome groups and letting your furbabies into our hearts every night and I explained our nightly rocking chair ritual. My Facebook has been blowing up for days ever since. Hundreds of people have been putting up posts saying things like Allen and Edith this is for you. Tons of pictures and bideos came pouring in from every group. “Good night Edith”. “Marley and Maggie say hi Edith”! People from all over the world banded together for my little girl to give her good night wishes. They started messaging me saying this was a really cool story you told in such a depressing time so I just wanted to say that made my day and I wanted to make yours! Now hundreds of people on these pages have all got together and promised to do this for us every Monday night until life returns to normal. Not just for us, but for them too. To give them a ray of sunshine in a gloomy world.
Comments
I expect, I hope, it will become mandatory as I believe it will be a necessary step to allow less sheltering in place.
It has been fun to see how creative some people have been in that regard
Yes! I’ve seen masks that give you a dog face and all other sorts. Some areas have already extended the shelter in place into May so hold on to those masks!
I was just talking to my local* friends about how fortunate that we all were to either be "essential workers" or able to work remotely. I feel pretty terrible for all those people who are uncertain about their future. I hope they are able to get back to work soon in a safe manner.
Edit: Specified "local" friends to differentiate between them and my friends here.
On the topic of the identity of some one who is ill. You have the right to know if you are in danger. You do not have the right to know who. Privacy isn't just about feelings, it can also be about safety. People tend to react out of fear when presented with a warning of danger. That fear can result not only in harmful verbal exchanges, but physical ones as well. Being informed some one has been quarantined people tend to want to blame the person. That person didn't try to get sick. During the incubation period symptoms do not exist, so it is impossible to know if you or anyone around you is ill. If there is a danger some one has been exposed they should know ASAP that they should quarantine. Who and how isn't useful information. No one intends to get ill. Not you and not the person that gave it to you. Business and crediters and family responsiblities tend to place an certain level of expectation on us all. Working ill is not uncommon even though it should be. The same boss that gets upset everyone is ill, is the same boss that cuts your shifts if you call on sick. I'm not pointing at anyone, it's a general example.
On the topic of masks. You need to understand the point and use in an infection or contamination situation. They are called PPE or personal protective equipment, but the purpose and use of them is ICE or infection containment. A lot of people are rolling their eyes I'm sure. Trust me, I see it all the time.
Example. Why do you were gloves to prepare food? The point is to prevent cross contamination. But most people only where them to keep their own hands clean. You have no idea how many times I've seen some one almost die from an allergic reaction because the person wearing the gloves was thinking about not getting dirty instead of what foods they were cross contaminating.
If you are ill. You should where a mask to catch what you exhale. Don't touch the mask, don't touch your face. When you need to, change the mask and then wash your hands. The mask is to contain the infection or contamination to you.
(This is the part people tend to have trouble with) If you are not ill. The point of Infection/Chemical Containment Equipment is to deal with a person or mess without it getting onto or into you. It is removed immediately upon leaving the area to prevent it getting beyond the site you want it contained. I know this sounds simple. But consider. You walk through a store, leave, get into your car and go home. Where is the mask? Did you put it in your pocket or purse? If the virus was in the store and it got on your mask, after touching it you, your pocket, everything in your purse, your keys, the wheel, your bags when you leave the car and everything you touch. Watch any video you want of an airport, mall, sidewalk, where people are wearing masks. They don't put them on properly. They reposition the mask constantly. They touch surfaces and then the mask or themselves. Putting on a mask simply gives most people a sense of protection, but because they don't entirely understand the whole process it doesn't really matter. The mask does nothing to actually protect them because they are constantly touching it and reusing it. I'm not saying masks are useless, I'm saying that people make up their own rules about how to use it and they aren't informed by actual professionals. They scratch their own nose and then touch themselves and everything else because they only think about it as not getting dirty.
For some I'm preaching to the choir. I'm not intending to insult anyone. But I'm going to close this with a work story from a hospital. It's from a long term care. The care staff have an interesting habit of double gloving to bath patients. Wearing two (or more) pairs of gloves, they do a thorough job of it. Which usually involves their hands and forearms fully in the water. These nurses fully believe they are protected. Ten minutes or more with dirty bath water inside their gloves, held against any potential breaks in their skin. Then they take those gloves off and touch everything in the room because they imagine wearing the gloves protected them.
I'm not attempting to mock masks. I'm not saying they are useless. And when I say some people use them wrong, it may or may not describe you. The point I want to impart is that the way each person uses PPE is not always well informed. A lot of people think it's as simple as putting on a mask in public. If it makes people feel better I there is nothing wrong with that. But, for my part, I assume that even people with masks are as dangerous as the people without them. Because a lot of the time, they are. Not maliciously. There is no requirement for people to seek a professional instruction, and the internet is so full of people who want to tell you what to do.
The mask is truely a small part in system.
The right to know thing can be covered by "you worked closely with this individual" or "you may have shared common areas with this individual." But you are correct - the company owes the individual at least that much.
As to the office Christmas tree, then you get into equal space for different religions, the cost of that space to the company, and businesses just tend to say, "we can save X dollars by doing nothing and cause less controversies," so that's the route that they tend to go. The 30 vs 1 thing starts to get into "tyranny of the majority" territory. If there's one place I don't want to have that discussion, it's in the Star Trek fandom. You get into "the needs of the many" and Borg collective vs individuality and a whole host of things that I don't want to touch with a 10-foot pole.
I saw the press conference about re-openning the US economy yesterday. Something about phases and testing. I'm sure it will be different from state to state. I kind of look forward to hearing what my state's governor will say about our state's plans to move forward. I also wonder how many companies will decide "we can save X dollars on office space (and toilet paper
You’re right. The 30 people should not have a say, just the one. The one should have tyranny over the 30. In some cases they know this is the way of America and they use it to their advantage
I entirely understand the idea of wanting to know who may be involved in the chain of contact that might have put you in danger. I respect that opinion. I'm to saying I'm right factually or ethically. There may be legal realities involved, however, in general, my opinion is that I respectfully disagree. My opinion is also that the desire to know is rooted in a lack of trust in others that the other people in the chain have been handled adequately and are acting responsibly. I'm not judging, it's a universal worry, we all have it.
Unless there was a malicious intent, there is as equally likely the reality that every person in the chain of contact was entirely unaware. My question to knowing who is in that chain is this, how does knowing impact recovery? Who just happens to be in the chain before you doesn't have any impact on your recovery. But I can understand the worry that whoever did it may still be passing it. I don't believe the right to identify exists unless there was an intent to harm or willful negligence. It is a trust issue, and I can't tell you who and when to trust. Not telling everyone who is in the chain isn't about protecting the person. What you do today impacts how other people will expect things to go down in the future.
I do understand the snowflake point as well. But I don't think this is entirely (though perhaps in a small part) the same thing. This debate would take up considerably more space. It is indeed interesting and quite hypocritical to see someone demanding to display their symbols while decrying the sight of other's symbols. It is this debate that informs my aversion to any exposition regarding rights. Whether the right to know or the right to not be exposed to symbols of a faith against your own. It is a charged word.
If you believe others will be in danger because some one isn't being properly dealt with, I get it. If knowing would have a quantifiable impact going forward, perhaps people should know. I prefer to deal less with rights and more with how constructive something is. Are you(royal you, not specific) involved with and responsible for ensuring people are acting appropriately? Then certainly you should know. If you art the person responsible, it's a less cut and dry about the need to know.
That's not what I said. I said it's a controversial issue and that I didn't want to touch it with a 10-foot pole.
That is part of it. The company I work for, the two people who run it in particular, are shady and do shady things on a daily basis. I have known this from the first day I worked here. They have also asked me to do shady things and I have refused every single time. They can’t do anything against me because if they do, the corporate office will not support them and tell them and me I did the right thing. So there are huge trust issues between the employees and higher management here. I do what I feel is best and sometimes that conflicts with what those two who are over the warehouse want but again, their hands are tied because they know I am doing the right thing and they are not. My last job, I towed the company line because I did trust them to do the right thing. Here I do not tow that line because I don’t have that trust.
I suspect US restrictions will begin easing back a bit in a month or so, but probably not all that much until the end of the school year. Even if statewide restrictions are substantially downgraded over the summer, I bet a lot of businesses that were able to transition to WFH will be cautious about bringing folks back into the office.
Of course, so much of this rests on the ability to effectively test. I get the impressive that COVID-19 is a bit tricky in this regard because some tests are tricked by other coranviruses. While there are plenty of nasty members of this family (SARS, MERS) the more benign members are one cause for the common cold. Although better a false positive than a false negative in this situation.
Starport
Everyone stay safe. Use PPE every time, and use it correctly. We are separated into sheltering in place, but we are all in this together.
I agree with the above statement speculating that WfH will become the possible new "normal" for any job that can be done that way. The man from the Staunton Social Security office called me yesterday to get me set up for SSI. They are working from home, now. My next appointment with the Pain Clinic will be a phone call......
Our world may be changed forever. Even when this pandemic ends. As prophylaxis against the next mutated disease organism.
Unfortunately similar things have happened in Italy too. There's been one case in particular, where three paramedics from the South volunteered in northern hospitals (the North ist the most affected area here) and when they went back home, after two weeks of non-stop work with critical cases, they rented an apartment to self-quarantine for 14 days. They shared a video where they explained how the other inhabitants of the building tried to get them to move out (and in a less polite way than the one seen in this picture). Some people's arrogance and entitlement seems to have no limits
Here is how to visualize the use of masks and gloves. Your car's engine is intermittently spraying oil. So you put a screen to catch the oil so it doesn't spray on the road or other cars. No matter where you go that oil is contained to your car. That's if you are sick.
Now lets assume this issue of oil may be affecting some one else. If you put the same screen on your car, it will prevent other compromised cars from spraying oil into your engine, but it will still get on the rest of the car. You don't want to touch the outside of your car and then your eyes, nose, or mouth.
Whether your car is spraying oil, or some one else's oil is on your car, if you adjust the screen, you are going to get oil on your hands.
Lets assume you are a mechanic. While repairing a car that is spraying oil, you need to prevent the oil from getting onto or into you. And you want to make sure you get any of that oil on the other clean cars. So you put on equipment. When you are done working on that car you have to remove all that equipment in a way that ensures you don't get any of the oil on yourself, then wash your hands to make sure none of the oil gets onto anything or anyone outside the room.
Make sure to consider, that while it is called Personal Protective Equipment, the purpose is much larger. The purpose is containing something, not simply to protect. Think long term, not just immediate situation. If you take a drive in the country your windscreen will be covered in bugs. That's what happens when you are wearing a mask to prevent getting sick. The bugs don't just disappear when you get home.
This is how the virus is getting spread. Not by people directly coughing near you. But by people collecting it on themselves and tracking it everywhere they go. And this is my issue with masks and the false sense of security they give people. I don't say this to prevent people from using PPE or going out. If you know a nurse or some one familiar with how to properly don and dof equipment, ask them how to do it.
For me this isn't as difficult because of my allergies. I have a severe (potentially fatal) reaction to cat, dog, and horse dander. Especially on the summer, people can take their pets anywhere now. So anything I touch may have dander on it (people with a peanut allergy will understand). I have to be hyper aware of my hands wherever I go to ensure I don't bring dander to my face. People who have pet their pet have it on their hands and they move around the world. I do a lot of handwashing while outside. It is much the same for the virus.
It's sad to see people reacting out of fear of the virus. Awareness and careful consideration of how you interact with the environment around you goes a lot further than fear.
This is the video of the WHO that explains how and when to use them. Unfortunately it was already hard to apply to Italy's situation by the time it was uploaded.
As for the fear argument, I feel like fear is being used as an excuse for way too many things way too often. We all experience fear and we all have stupid reactions from time to time, but the kind of reactions we have say something about our character too. Someone who harasses their neighbors because they're healthcare workers is not someone that I would want to be around in general, no matter what their state of mind is.
Let's continue to stay wise, I use wise specifically because there is a lot of strength coming from wisdom.
Thank you, Exanimus for the great analogy.
While I am all onboard with wearing face coverings, I agree that more context/advice should be provided by city officials when they make their recommendations/rulings.
We need to continuously educate ourselves and others
Monday virtual group hug!
Hundreds of people around the world were trapped by the coronavirus. This is the case of a young Italian woman, an Erasmus student in Bilbao [northern Spain]. Natural from Veneto, the student, who had been in the Basque Country for two months, decided to return to their country of origin. That is where the odyssey began.
He traveled to Madrid, hoping to fly to Paris and from there to Italy. However, problems with the stopover in the French capital left the young woman ashore in Barajas [Madrid airport]. Alone and in an unknown city, she contacted a colleague from the university to ask how she could return to Bilbao. So this he called his taxi driver friend Kepa Amantegi to know if she knew someone who could take her from Madrid [a taxi trip from Madrid to Bilbao would cost 600-700 euros].
So, this young man from the Basque town of Durango offered to bring the student back for free. Three hours later, she left the Barajas airport, riding Amantegi’s taxi. Almost 400 kilometers [248 milles] of journey between the heart of the Plateau and the Cantabrian Sea in which the Venetian explained to the driver that at the embassy they had told him that even until June he could not return. “The truth is that the story was dramatic. I told him that if it was in my hand, I would take it with the taxi to Italy,” said Amantegi.
Upon arriving in Bilbao, Amantegi brought the student closer to her home in the city. However, the problems continued. “She wanted to go to her house, where she lived with her roommate. However, when she called, no one opened it for her,” said the taxi driver.
The young woman had nowhere to sleep, which is why she went to the taxi driver’s home in Durango. From there they would prepare the return to Italy. On Wednesday night, April 8, they spoke with the Ertzaintza [regional police of the Basque Country] and on Thursday they filled out all the papers with the Italian Embassy. On Friday they started towards the transalpine country.
Between Durango and Montebello, the locality of the Erasmus student, there are almost 1500 kilometers away [932 milles]. A road that crosses the whole of southern France until reaching Italy, specifically Lombardy, the region most affected by the coronavirus. A long trip in which, according to Amantegi, they had no setbacks. “With the papers from the embassy they let us move without problem. Furthermore, in addition to the border between Spain and France, they only stopped me once. On my return at the height of Toulouse, the gendarmerie saw me alone and asked me to find out why. You get nervous, but with the documentation and the car in order, nothing happened,“ said the driver.
Hours later, both glimpsed the sign indicating they were entering Montebello. There, the young woman’s family wanted reward Amantegi, to which he repeatedly refused. He simply stays with his appreciation.
The article: https://www.mbs.news/c/2020/04/solidarity-on-wheels-a-spanish-taxi-driver-takes-a-young-woman-to-italy-for-free.html
Thank you for sharing.
You have been a very cool voice on this thread and have shared some information I appreciate knowing. Thank you from the bottom of my heart
I don't want to stop patronizing this apparel company in case your wife chooses to continue working there. If she doesn't, I'll PM you to get the name so I don't shop there. I don't like Kirspy Kreme donuts, but I bought some when they started giving them away to health care workers. TP/WRG seems to be doing things right, so I still spend on the game.
Companies need to be responsible about this. No, we don't want them shutting employees out of work. But we also don't want companies knowingly putting workers at risk. I respect that it may not be an obvious or easy balance, but it's not to much to ask that an effort be made.
The place is falling apart around them and they are just watching it. They are almost out of managers. So the ones still there will get burned out and at huge risk.
Thank you very much, I really appreciate your words. I don't write in the forum as much I wanted because I don't speak English very well, that's why many of my posts are only images. Thank you again!
By the way, here the lockdown has been extended until May 10 (at least), but starting on April 26, the children until 14 years could go to get out and walk. Details are not clear yet, but there are good news.
Your very welcome. And your English is very easy for me to understand. You write it very well so don’t be hesitant. You’re a great contributor and I hope you continue to be
So every night before Edith goes to bed, we sit in a rocking chair. I scroll through my Facebook full of nothing but Cairn Terrier pictures and videos, and she just loves it! She calls our boys (Banjo and now Einstein is part of our family) “Buddy” because she always hears me call them buddy. So she calls every dog “buddy”. As I scroll, she points and smiles and says “buddy”. It’s a really cool little ritual. So I put up a small post on all 15 of the Cairn Terrier group pages saying thank you everyone just for being awesome groups and letting your furbabies into our hearts every night and I explained our nightly rocking chair ritual. My Facebook has been blowing up for days ever since. Hundreds of people have been putting up posts saying things like Allen and Edith this is for you. Tons of pictures and bideos came pouring in from every group. “Good night Edith”. “Marley and Maggie say hi Edith”! People from all over the world banded together for my little girl to give her good night wishes. They started messaging me saying this was a really cool story you told in such a depressing time so I just wanted to say that made my day and I wanted to make yours! Now hundreds of people on these pages have all got together and promised to do this for us every Monday night until life returns to normal. Not just for us, but for them too. To give them a ray of sunshine in a gloomy world.