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Key information about the event: Plateau of Tomorrow - 08/20 - ME#2

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  • Bylo BandBylo Band ✭✭✭✭✭
    Rowden wrote: »
    Bylo Band wrote: »
    Rowden wrote: »
    Bylo Band wrote: »
    Rowden wrote: »
    Bylo Band wrote: »
    Respectfully @Rowden, I reject nearly all of your explanation. I do agree that it is nasty when people send mean spirited PMs and I do not support that, but as for the rest, I do not agree.

    I am not one of the anti-spending crowd, I am in favor of spending and I support it. I myself am a spender and I have participated in many threads defending the big spenders, here is one such example from several months ago also about spending in Faction events.

    When 2020 began and MECHAlobe began his monopoly on Faction events, most people thought it was cool, there was a relatively new face on top for a change. When wins 2 and 3 happened for MECHAlobe most people were like "OK, Dude is flexing to become a household name, OK." Obviously this was starting to make folks nervous but so far there was nothing really to worry about, because the assumption was that after this flexing display was over, things would go back to normal, or some new version of normal.

    Then wins 4 through 8 happened, and MECHAlobe kept winning Faction events. Those could be explained away pretty simply by just pointing out that people were now gun shy about taking on MECHAlobe, so he was simply posting a big score on day 1 and coasting, as nobody was really challenging him. No problems there. During that streak the fleet stealing scandal broke and MECHAlobe changed his name to "Don't Tread of Fleets" and was basically a hero for a week, I myself even sent an in game PM that weekend to show my support.

    The assumption all along I feel is that MECHAlobe was just being playful during that time, possibly playing a game of "Catch Me if you Can" with the leaderboard. That all changed this weekend when MECHAlobe went from playful eccentric to an enemy of the people. The line was crossed this weekend, as this weekend was when all the other possible explanations for the (now) 9 Faction event wins in 2020 were removed, as MECHAlobe had a determined challenger, and MECHAlobe sent a very loud message that Faction events belong to him.

    I will now show two screenshots from this weekend, taken approximately 3 hours apart to illustrate this fact.

    The first was taken with approximately 2 days, 19 hours remaining in the event.
    xwcgw72w5zad.jpg


    The second was taken around 3 hours later, with approximately 2 days, 16 hours remaining.
    gdbav4jf6dcv.jpg


    Just as Torsten-Islay dared to approach the throne, MECHAlobe scored 1,469,600 points...in 3 hours. MECHAlobe had a minimum of three such sprees in the first phase of this event. Myself and a couple other people tried to reverse engineer what it would take to score 1,469,600 points in 3 hours, and we came up with a couple of models, and from there we calculated an approximate cost for such a spree and I will not post that number because it feels tacky, but suffice to say it is extreme.

    To resort to such an extreme spending model to win an event is what it is (apologies @~peregrine~ ) and if somebody wants to do that to win a Faction event for the achievement or just to say they won a Faction event, so be it. But to do it just to prevent anybody else from winning so you can win your 9th Faction event of 2020, what the hell is that?!

    Point made. Horse dead. Horse kicked. At this point it has crossed over from amusing to malignant.

    I'm just gonna reply to the 'enemy of the people comment down' and really point out the extreme double standard MECHAlobe is held to compared with Torsten. MECH went to bed Thursday night with a marginal 200K VP lead, and then woke up to find himself at a 2M VP deficit. You found 1.5M in 3 hrs disdainful in some way, how about the 2.2M VP Torsten put on, which was after his initial 2M VP dil burn he started the event with. As you mentioned, you don't play at the top of faction events often and maybe don't understand all the strategy involved but Torsten strategy of starting the event this way was a deliberate attempt to engage MECHAlobe in an early bidding war. What's more Torsten was not squad lead, and no-one else in his squad was playing hard enough to be involved, so he was happy to take on MECHAlobe and myself with no backup (I personally think this was a critical error 2 v 1 doesn't usually end well). MECHAlobe accepted the invitation and moved to a 1M VP lead. In the screenshots you have suggested he responded to a small change in score from Torsten, but this is complete nonsense, he was likely just taking a break. Torsten then chose not to respond, likely holding a multi-million VP stash of dil to attack the end of the event if MECHAlobe was within striking distance. MECHAlobe then moved to a number he though would be enough to defend such an assault on Sunday or Monday. People think 1M VP is a large lead, it isn't. There are strategies were you can put on 1M VP in under 20 mins. This is why you see players build such large leads.

    So to me they were both using very similar methods to obtain VP quickly. This was initiated by Torsten, with MECHAlobe countering. MECHAlobe won the event because he went out of range of a final assault by Torsten.

    I find it interesting in all this you only saw MECHAlobe spending.... MECHAlobe responding to other players... how quickly MECHAlobe put on points. And you didn't see Torsten, you didn't see how much support they were receiving from their squads/fleets and you didn't see Rowden who is sitting right there in all your screenshots. You missed the trump card because you did not understand what is actually going on.

    Do you not understand the argument here, or are you deliberately playing obstructionist to deflect attention from something else?

    I responded to what you wrote.

    No, you didn't. You picked apart a specific example I cited as evidence of the actual issue here, all while dancing around the subject. So let me be clear, of MECHAlobe's 9 Faction wins from 2020...

    #1, no problem
    #2, no problem
    #3, no problem
    #4, no problem
    #5, no problem
    #6, no problem
    #7, no problem
    #8, no problem
    #9, big problem

    This last weekend it was plain for all to see that MECHAlobe has sent the message to everyone that nobody else is "allowed" to win a Faction event. That's it, that is the ENTIRE point. This weekend the message was sent: challenge MECHAlobe, and be crushed.

    "As you mentioned, you don't play at the top of faction events often and maybe don't understand all the strategy involved"...I never said anything of the sort. I've been top 10 in a Faction event before, and I'm sitting on enough resources that I've been buying and amassing for months that I could threaten the top of any Faction event of my choosing.

    And that is the point here, this was the weekend that it all went too far. This was the weekend where the message was sent that no lead will ever be safe. I don't give a damn about any agreements the top players have made among themselves about who is allowed to win any particular event, but when it is on full display that one player will literally spend any amount of money to win every Faction event and thus prevent literally everyone else from ever having a chance for no reason other than to be a gatekeeper, that is the kind of action that threatens the community.

    How many wins will be enough? Is he planning to stop at 10? 15? 20? Who knows, and that is the point. Why should other players bother trying anymore, or buy boost packs anymore, or buy the campaigns anymore (campaigns have tons of goodies for Faction events) when they cannot win? I've seen the argument that it has always been like this and to a large degree I agree with that, but in the past a MUCH better job was done by the top players to rotate the wins or whatever the agreements were to not completely crush all hope form the rest of us. That kept the rest of us trying, because we had hope that one day we could work hard, save up enough resources, acquire enough dilithium, to make a once-in-a-lifetime run one weekend and try for a win that felt achievable.

    That illusion has been shattered this weekend, and THAT is the point. You can blindly defend MECHAlobe all you want, but I'm telling you that this weekend real damage was done.

    As I stated previously, 4 other players have won faction events in the timeframe you referenced. One without spending any money. Whether or not you are capable of winning a faction event is down to you. But it's certainly not more difficult that winning any other event type.

    When you play skirmish or galaxy events for the win you will come up against players who need 0-3 hours sleep a night. I have previously played 2 opponents who didn't take a break over a 96 hr period, and one that didn't take a break over the 48 hr skirmish phase (hybrid event). And players also do this at the start of galaxy events. I would think this time commitment, combined with extreme sleep deprivation for over 96 hours (this is an extreme health risk, there are many news articles where gamers have permanently damaged their health or died partaking in this kind of activity) would be a much greater gate-keeper to winning than money is to faction events, since you can win faction events without spending but you cannot win a skirmish without extreme sleep deprivation over 4 days.

    But based on what has also been stated previously, we have every reason to suspect that those other winners were given permission, knew the secret handshake, or whatever is necessary to be allowed to win.
  • RowdenRowden ✭✭✭
    mejoyh wrote: »
    Just to chime in on a couple of things with my personal experience

    1) Winning events - Agreed, Faction events are the most susceptible to P2W. With Galaxy events the most difficult (ironic how so many people on the forums dislike it).

    I’ll jump in and say that I like how Faction events are generally structured - not having to be huddled around my phone for a few hours at a crack, furiously tapping away resources to get stars for a crew that will instantly go into the freezer for another 1-12 months, is nice. I’m willing to do that in a Skirmish because there’s the honor that piles up, but I can also watch TV while I do a Skirmish and be able to pay attention to it, which is not the case for a Skirmish

    Faction events have a bit more strategy to them and require a few minutes of input every few hours. If the dilithium recall functionality were to be disabled during the event, the P2W aspect would be nerfed pretty heavily. It wouldn’t go away entirely thanks to shuttle tokens, and the need for a huge number of crew is going to be easier to fulfill for whales than for other people, but I would be quite curious to see what a Faction event would look like without dilithium recalls.

    2) Definitely agree with @~peregrine~ and I think this has been brought up loads and is overly obvious... There's so much gap between 1500th and 25th that there's almost no point in doing anything better than 1500 unless you are wanting to win it. Even back to the time when they expanded the 5* card reward from 1000 to 1500th place, I think it would have been better to deploy the 500 extra cards to the top 500 players. So there's actually some point in doing better then 1500 and out (or 1000 and out back then). The argument that this helps newer players also makes little sense to me. Newer players will just end up with a ton more 1/5 which just clog up their crew spots. I believe this might ironically make it harder for newer players to properly crew their roster as this becomes a quantity vs quality issue

    Agreed 100% - expanding the top 1500 was nice but it would have been equally good to smooth out the rewards between 5th or 25th and 1000th place. Currently, the only reason to end up between 25th and 1500th is to make sure you don’t slip out of the top 1500 at the end of the event because of how tightly clustered the ranks get.

    @Rowden - since I don’t want to scroll back through all the posts to find the quote, I have one question that maybe someone else would need to answer about those Skirmish event bonus rewards...with the overall time input reduction through the 2x/3x speed-up buttons, does it make sense any longer to play the Bonus Rewards Slot Machine in search of VP drops when you could dive right back into the next battle? Tapping that button until you get a 1500 VP drop seems to me like a losing proposition, given the drop rate. If that is the case, then any P2W aspect of Skirmish events (beyond buying chron packages or pouring dil into voyage recalls) would be minimized. [/quote]

    I personally agree with you that the change in event has reduced the effectiveness of taking an extra reward to increase speed. Tapping once used to give you about a 5% advantage. In my opinion it was only worth pressing that button if you are playing for a very high rank. And even then it gives situational benefits. Definitely not essentially, especially now its below 5%.
  • RowdenRowden ✭✭✭
    edited August 2020
    Bylo Band wrote: »
    Rowden wrote: »
    Bylo Band wrote: »
    Rowden wrote: »
    Bylo Band wrote: »
    Rowden wrote: »
    Bylo Band wrote: »
    Respectfully @Rowden, I reject nearly all of your explanation. I do agree that it is nasty when people send mean spirited PMs and I do not support that, but as for the rest, I do not agree.

    I am not one of the anti-spending crowd, I am in favor of spending and I support it. I myself am a spender and I have participated in many threads defending the big spenders, here is one such example from several months ago also about spending in Faction events.

    When 2020 began and MECHAlobe began his monopoly on Faction events, most people thought it was cool, there was a relatively new face on top for a change. When wins 2 and 3 happened for MECHAlobe most people were like "OK, Dude is flexing to become a household name, OK." Obviously this was starting to make folks nervous but so far there was nothing really to worry about, because the assumption was that after this flexing display was over, things would go back to normal, or some new version of normal.

    Then wins 4 through 8 happened, and MECHAlobe kept winning Faction events. Those could be explained away pretty simply by just pointing out that people were now gun shy about taking on MECHAlobe, so he was simply posting a big score on day 1 and coasting, as nobody was really challenging him. No problems there. During that streak the fleet stealing scandal broke and MECHAlobe changed his name to "Don't Tread of Fleets" and was basically a hero for a week, I myself even sent an in game PM that weekend to show my support.

    The assumption all along I feel is that MECHAlobe was just being playful during that time, possibly playing a game of "Catch Me if you Can" with the leaderboard. That all changed this weekend when MECHAlobe went from playful eccentric to an enemy of the people. The line was crossed this weekend, as this weekend was when all the other possible explanations for the (now) 9 Faction event wins in 2020 were removed, as MECHAlobe had a determined challenger, and MECHAlobe sent a very loud message that Faction events belong to him.

    I will now show two screenshots from this weekend, taken approximately 3 hours apart to illustrate this fact.

    The first was taken with approximately 2 days, 19 hours remaining in the event.
    xwcgw72w5zad.jpg


    The second was taken around 3 hours later, with approximately 2 days, 16 hours remaining.
    gdbav4jf6dcv.jpg


    Just as Torsten-Islay dared to approach the throne, MECHAlobe scored 1,469,600 points...in 3 hours. MECHAlobe had a minimum of three such sprees in the first phase of this event. Myself and a couple other people tried to reverse engineer what it would take to score 1,469,600 points in 3 hours, and we came up with a couple of models, and from there we calculated an approximate cost for such a spree and I will not post that number because it feels tacky, but suffice to say it is extreme.

    To resort to such an extreme spending model to win an event is what it is (apologies @~peregrine~ ) and if somebody wants to do that to win a Faction event for the achievement or just to say they won a Faction event, so be it. But to do it just to prevent anybody else from winning so you can win your 9th Faction event of 2020, what the hell is that?!

    Point made. Horse dead. Horse kicked. At this point it has crossed over from amusing to malignant.

    I'm just gonna reply to the 'enemy of the people comment down' and really point out the extreme double standard MECHAlobe is held to compared with Torsten. MECH went to bed Thursday night with a marginal 200K VP lead, and then woke up to find himself at a 2M VP deficit. You found 1.5M in 3 hrs disdainful in some way, how about the 2.2M VP Torsten put on, which was after his initial 2M VP dil burn he started the event with. As you mentioned, you don't play at the top of faction events often and maybe don't understand all the strategy involved but Torsten strategy of starting the event this way was a deliberate attempt to engage MECHAlobe in an early bidding war. What's more Torsten was not squad lead, and no-one else in his squad was playing hard enough to be involved, so he was happy to take on MECHAlobe and myself with no backup (I personally think this was a critical error 2 v 1 doesn't usually end well). MECHAlobe accepted the invitation and moved to a 1M VP lead. In the screenshots you have suggested he responded to a small change in score from Torsten, but this is complete nonsense, he was likely just taking a break. Torsten then chose not to respond, likely holding a multi-million VP stash of dil to attack the end of the event if MECHAlobe was within striking distance. MECHAlobe then moved to a number he though would be enough to defend such an assault on Sunday or Monday. People think 1M VP is a large lead, it isn't. There are strategies were you can put on 1M VP in under 20 mins. This is why you see players build such large leads.

    So to me they were both using very similar methods to obtain VP quickly. This was initiated by Torsten, with MECHAlobe countering. MECHAlobe won the event because he went out of range of a final assault by Torsten.

    I find it interesting in all this you only saw MECHAlobe spending.... MECHAlobe responding to other players... how quickly MECHAlobe put on points. And you didn't see Torsten, you didn't see how much support they were receiving from their squads/fleets and you didn't see Rowden who is sitting right there in all your screenshots. You missed the trump card because you did not understand what is actually going on.

    Do you not understand the argument here, or are you deliberately playing obstructionist to deflect attention from something else?

    I responded to what you wrote.

    No, you didn't. You picked apart a specific example I cited as evidence of the actual issue here, all while dancing around the subject. So let me be clear, of MECHAlobe's 9 Faction wins from 2020...

    #1, no problem
    #2, no problem
    #3, no problem
    #4, no problem
    #5, no problem
    #6, no problem
    #7, no problem
    #8, no problem
    #9, big problem

    This last weekend it was plain for all to see that MECHAlobe has sent the message to everyone that nobody else is "allowed" to win a Faction event. That's it, that is the ENTIRE point. This weekend the message was sent: challenge MECHAlobe, and be crushed.

    "As you mentioned, you don't play at the top of faction events often and maybe don't understand all the strategy involved"...I never said anything of the sort. I've been top 10 in a Faction event before, and I'm sitting on enough resources that I've been buying and amassing for months that I could threaten the top of any Faction event of my choosing.

    And that is the point here, this was the weekend that it all went too far. This was the weekend where the message was sent that no lead will ever be safe. I don't give a damn about any agreements the top players have made among themselves about who is allowed to win any particular event, but when it is on full display that one player will literally spend any amount of money to win every Faction event and thus prevent literally everyone else from ever having a chance for no reason other than to be a gatekeeper, that is the kind of action that threatens the community.

    How many wins will be enough? Is he planning to stop at 10? 15? 20? Who knows, and that is the point. Why should other players bother trying anymore, or buy boost packs anymore, or buy the campaigns anymore (campaigns have tons of goodies for Faction events) when they cannot win? I've seen the argument that it has always been like this and to a large degree I agree with that, but in the past a MUCH better job was done by the top players to rotate the wins or whatever the agreements were to not completely crush all hope form the rest of us. That kept the rest of us trying, because we had hope that one day we could work hard, save up enough resources, acquire enough dilithium, to make a once-in-a-lifetime run one weekend and try for a win that felt achievable.

    That illusion has been shattered this weekend, and THAT is the point. You can blindly defend MECHAlobe all you want, but I'm telling you that this weekend real damage was done.

    As I stated previously, 4 other players have won faction events in the timeframe you referenced. One without spending any money. Whether or not you are capable of winning a faction event is down to you. But it's certainly not more difficult that winning any other event type.

    When you play skirmish or galaxy events for the win you will come up against players who need 0-3 hours sleep a night. I have previously played 2 opponents who didn't take a break over a 96 hr period, and one that didn't take a break over the 48 hr skirmish phase (hybrid event). And players also do this at the start of galaxy events. I would think this time commitment, combined with extreme sleep deprivation for over 96 hours (this is an extreme health risk, there are many news articles where gamers have permanently damaged their health or died partaking in this kind of activity) would be a much greater gate-keeper to winning than money is to faction events, since you can win faction events without spending but you cannot win a skirmish without extreme sleep deprivation over 4 days.

    But based on what has also been stated previously, we have every reason to suspect that those other winners were given permission, knew the secret handshake, or whatever is necessary to be allowed to win.

    Yes, every event MECHAlobe has not won since the game came out (he's been playing a long time) is because he let them because of this secret handshake. MECHAlobe is ultimate champion, there is no stopping him. Let's ignore all the substantial evidence to the contrary.

    Everyone must quit the game! Killer robot on the loose!
  • *Nomad* {PoF}*Nomad* {PoF} ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wow, Shan is gonna disappointed when she returns, and the big blue pen will be busy! ;)
    Founding ADM - PoF family of fleets (POF, POF2 & POF3) - Dear TP: Non sequitur. Your facts are uncoordinated.
  • DScottHewittDScottHewitt ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wow, Shan is gonna disappointed when she returns, and the big blue pen will be busy! ;)

    Sure didn't take long for people to take advantage!!!!!

    "The truth is like a lion; you don't have to defend it. Let it loose; it will defend itself."
  • SSR BarkleySSR Barkley ✭✭✭✭✭
    i'm not sure where you see people are taking advantage of Shan being gone. The discourse has been civil.
    /SSR/ Barkley - semi retired
    Second Star to the Right - Join Today!
  • SSR BarkleySSR Barkley ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bylo Band wrote: »
    But based on what has also been stated previously, we have every reason to suspect that those other winners were given permission, knew the secret handshake, or whatever is necessary to be allowed to win.

    The fallacy of this logic is suggesting that some simple diplomacy is paramount to the idea that you're asking "permission" from some infallible being to let you win an event. I keep suggesting, you can form a relationship with Mech/KM if you want to win a faction event ... or you can continue to gnash your teeth about how KM and it's members continue to make a name for themselves. The choice is yours. I know my fleet has a great relationship with KM and it's members and we'd work something out if someone was ready to take a faction.

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    /SSR/ Barkley - semi retired
    Second Star to the Right - Join Today!
  • RowdenRowden ✭✭✭
    edited August 2020
    Bylo Band wrote: »
    When 2020 began and MECHAlobe began his monopoly on Faction events...
    Rowden wrote: »
    As I stated previously, 4 other players have won faction events in the timeframe you referenced.

    Fact check: false
    There have been 11 faction events in 2020. Mechalobe won 9, Empress Penguin won 1, and Silver Rose won 1. The last faction event of 2019 was won by @Rowden and the one before that was won by Mechalobe. As far as I can tell, that's when Mechalobe began dominance of faction events. Going back further, the only pattern that I noticed was KM being the dominant fleet.


    Rowden wrote: »

    I also don't plan to win. But if Empress Penguin is indeed in the same fleet, then @SSR Barkley was being more serious than I realized about asking to win.

    Not sure what being in the same fleet has to do with talking to Mech. But yes, I was being absolutely serious. Diplomacy goes a long way. There's some of us, including Rowden, who've been friends for a while and talk to each other to make sure we're not stepping on each other's toes.

    The game can be more about the relationships you build and the friendships you form with others.

    Maybe the reason Mech wins so many, and continues to do so convincingly is almost nobody else has bothered to come to an arrangement. What you see, instead, is the envy and loathing in the social groups and ugliness in PM's about how he continues to win events.

    What I see is dilithium.

    Indeed. I'm sure there is nuance. There's ways to minimize financial cost. But surely after the second one, stockpiled resources are gone. Dilithium is necessary. How that is optimized is certainly an interesting thought experiment.

    I find it interesting that @Rowden said something about top players proving themselves by beating someone else who is at the top of their game. Then @SSR Barkley says that the game can be more about relationships. These are interesting thoughts to me. Can they both be true at the same time?

    Yes they can be. You ideally just need to agree rules of engagement in advance. However, I've seen some explosive falling outs too.

    In response to your thought experiment it would be great if you suggest a solution to dilemma MECHAlobe found himself. His opponent dil burned to 4M VP after 1 day, a 2.2M VP lead over you. Your opponent should be capable of adding 3-4M VP over next three days. What is the most cost effective counter strategy where you still win? Surrender is not a solution.

    Your first suggestion here is that two players come to an agreement on rules of engagement. Doesn't that come down to "don't try your hardest"? And isn't that the antithesis of beating someone at the top of their game?

    As to your thought experiment, I did try that. I was debating the dilithium and dollar cost of boosts vs dilithium recalls and dilithium recalls vs rental shuttles. The numbers got pretty big to arrive at 8mil VP. I wasn't ready to put my money on the line to test it, but it was interesting to think about all the same. :)

    Rules of engagement usually means you tell them in advance you are not holding back because they are your friend. And normally that is sufficient so both parties are friends at the end.

    Other examples is some fleets like to have competitions in the gauntlet. A normal rule of engagement fleets might agree in advance is no dil. So you still try your hardest, just with more limited resources equally affecting both parties.
  • RowdenRowden ✭✭✭
    Bylo Band wrote: »
    Bylo Band wrote: »
    But based on what has also been stated previously, we have every reason to suspect that those other winners were given permission, knew the secret handshake, or whatever is necessary to be allowed to win.

    The fallacy of this logic is suggesting that some simple diplomacy is paramount to the idea that you're asking "permission" from some infallible being to let you win an event. I keep suggesting, you can form a relationship with Mech/KM if you want to win a faction event ... or you can continue to gnash your teeth about how KM and it's members continue to make a name for themselves. The choice is yours. I know my fleet has a great relationship with KM and it's members and we'd work something out if someone was ready to take a faction.

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    i don't see how you are saying anything different than I said. How is "we'd work something out" and ask for permission really all that different? I freely admit that my colorfully sarcastic way of saying it has a bit of a devious flair, but it basically boils down the the same thing: KM owns Faction events, and anybody wanting to go for a Faction win must clear it with them first. I do not understand why people aren't more upset by this, it is bullying-adjacent. It's like they all control the only working water fountain and you have to be nice to them or they won't let you drink from it. I respect you a lot @SSR Barkley and I hear your words, I'm just not wired in such a way that I'd willingly "kiss the ring" of anybody who is acting this way.

    As to @Rowden, I simply have nothing more to say to you. I make a point, and you talk around it and also seem to feel you need to defend your friend. I respect your loyalty, I'd do the same thing, but you have done or said nothing to address the fact that the aforementioned player's antics are bad for the game, or maybe you have and are doing it in a way I'm not understanding, but either way we should probably stop. But for one final time I'll speak to you using myself as a reference to hopefully get you to understand exactly what it is I am saying...

    ...I have the resources to push for a Faction win right now. I've been up there before and I've made top 5s before, I know what it takes. What i am telling you is based on what I've seen from the aforementioned player since 2020 began, I am 100% certain that no score I post will be good enough; I have been buying boost packs, rental shuttles, all of it for months and months, I've been investing in a Faction run for a very long time, and there is no point in even trying to win based on all available evidence. I'm not interested in second place, they don't have an achievement for second place, I want to win. There is to my knowledge no achievement for winning 10 events, and yet I know if I use up ALL my resources and post a crazy high score that a 9 time winner is going to spend as much money as it will take to dunk on me, just to do it, because I didn't get permission first.

    I may be alone, but I doubt it. I started this conversation to draw awareness to the fact that a big part of the longevity of games like this is hope, and the aforementioned player's behavior is killing hope. It has already impacted my spending as I've stopped buying shuttle boost packs and I'm no longer 100% buying the campaigns as I was doing that to stockpile Faction event items. The behavior of ONE player who (in theory) has nothing at all to gain by gatekeeping the leaderboard is killing hope.

    Choose whatever you want to believe, but this is conspiracy level. Also, the World is flat, global warming is a myth and the moon landings were faked. MECHAlobe controlling the game is laughable and for your information no-one has ever messaged MECHAlobe asking permission to let them win a particular event.
  • SSR BarkleySSR Barkley ✭✭✭✭✭

    Work something out how? Whole thing smacks of Wall Street back room deals. Like cable companies carving up the country so they would each have a monopoly in a market and not compete against each other. Big fleets at the top controlling events and if you are not in a top fleet then you will be kept out of the top 25, top 10, or top 1. Maybe you and others did not mean it like that but all I keep hearing is Hamilton’s song The Room Where It Happens.

    There's no rule out there that says you can't be in a non-top fleet and still send Mech or even Rowden a message to see if there's a chance they might not chase a faction. That's simply how you're choosing to spin it, and that's on you.
    /SSR/ Barkley - semi retired
    Second Star to the Right - Join Today!
  • (HGH)Apollo(HGH)Apollo ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2020

    Work something out how? Whole thing smacks of Wall Street back room deals. Like cable companies carving up the country so they would each have a monopoly in a market and not compete against each other. Big fleets at the top controlling events and if you are not in a top fleet then you will be kept out of the top 25, top 10, or top 1. Maybe you and others did not mean it like that but all I keep hearing is Hamilton’s song The Room Where It Happens.

    There's no rule out there that says you can't be in a non-top fleet and still send Mech or even Rowden a message to see if there's a chance they might not chase a faction. That's simply how you're choosing to spin it, and that's on you.

    I was looking for clarification on what you meant by:
    I know my fleet has a great relationship with KM and it's members and we'd work something out if someone was ready to take a faction.

    What does the “work something out” mean? It implies an exchange of favors and not true competition. Week after week I see the same people from big fleets in the top 25. The same things said about the non competitive nature of MECHAlobe making it so others cannot be number one and making the game less fun can be said of those high level fleets keeping others out of the top 25 in all events as well. I got top 25 a long time ago once but I never could now. Points needed keep going up and up and up. I went all in a year ago and best I could do was 38. Had a couple other fleet members try since then and they were kept out as well. Then you and others have talked of deals and working together among the big fleets and the whole event system at the top feels like a sham competition. You get hints of this in UC sometimes but it is being put on full display here.
    Let’s fly!
  • *Nomad* {PoF}*Nomad* {PoF} ✭✭✭✭✭
    Rowden wrote: »
    Bylo Band wrote: »
    Bylo Band wrote: »
    But based on what has also been stated previously, we have every reason to suspect that those other winners were given permission, knew the secret handshake, or whatever is necessary to be allowed to win.

    The fallacy of this logic is suggesting that some simple diplomacy is paramount to the idea that you're asking "permission" from some infallible being to let you win an event. I keep suggesting, you can form a relationship with Mech/KM if you want to win a faction event ... or you can continue to gnash your teeth about how KM and it's members continue to make a name for themselves. The choice is yours. I know my fleet has a great relationship with KM and it's members and we'd work something out if someone was ready to take a faction.

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    i don't see how you are saying anything different than I said. How is "we'd work something out" and ask for permission really all that different? I freely admit that my colorfully sarcastic way of saying it has a bit of a devious flair, but it basically boils down the the same thing: KM owns Faction events, and anybody wanting to go for a Faction win must clear it with them first. I do not understand why people aren't more upset by this, it is bullying-adjacent. It's like they all control the only working water fountain and you have to be nice to them or they won't let you drink from it. I respect you a lot @SSR Barkley and I hear your words, I'm just not wired in such a way that I'd willingly "kiss the ring" of anybody who is acting this way.

    As to @Rowden, I simply have nothing more to say to you. I make a point, and you talk around it and also seem to feel you need to defend your friend. I respect your loyalty, I'd do the same thing, but you have done or said nothing to address the fact that the aforementioned player's antics are bad for the game, or maybe you have and are doing it in a way I'm not understanding, but either way we should probably stop. But for one final time I'll speak to you using myself as a reference to hopefully get you to understand exactly what it is I am saying...

    ...I have the resources to push for a Faction win right now. I've been up there before and I've made top 5s before, I know what it takes. What i am telling you is based on what I've seen from the aforementioned player since 2020 began, I am 100% certain that no score I post will be good enough; I have been buying boost packs, rental shuttles, all of it for months and months, I've been investing in a Faction run for a very long time, and there is no point in even trying to win based on all available evidence. I'm not interested in second place, they don't have an achievement for second place, I want to win. There is to my knowledge no achievement for winning 10 events, and yet I know if I use up ALL my resources and post a crazy high score that a 9 time winner is going to spend as much money as it will take to dunk on me, just to do it, because I didn't get permission first.

    I may be alone, but I doubt it. I started this conversation to draw awareness to the fact that a big part of the longevity of games like this is hope, and the aforementioned player's behavior is killing hope. It has already impacted my spending as I've stopped buying shuttle boost packs and I'm no longer 100% buying the campaigns as I was doing that to stockpile Faction event items. The behavior of ONE player who (in theory) has nothing at all to gain by gatekeeping the leaderboard is killing hope.

    Choose whatever you want to believe, but this is conspiracy level. Also, the World is flat, global warming is a myth and the moon landings were faked. MECHAlobe controlling the game is laughable and for your information no-one has ever messaged MECHAlobe asking permission to let them win a particular event.

    Tsk Tsk, didn't you know:

    Sir Bedevere:
    ...and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana shaped.

    King Arthur:
    This new learning amazes me, Sir Bedevere. Explain again how sheep's bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes.
    Founding ADM - PoF family of fleets (POF, POF2 & POF3) - Dear TP: Non sequitur. Your facts are uncoordinated.
  • RowdenRowden ✭✭✭
    Th
    Rowden wrote: »
    Bylo Band wrote: »
    Bylo Band wrote: »
    But based on what has also been stated previously, we have every reason to suspect that those other winners were given permission, knew the secret handshake, or whatever is necessary to be allowed to win.

    The fallacy of this logic is suggesting that some simple diplomacy is paramount to the idea that you're asking "permission" from some infallible being to let you win an event. I keep suggesting, you can form a relationship with Mech/KM if you want to win a faction event ... or you can continue to gnash your teeth about how KM and it's members continue to make a name for themselves. The choice is yours. I know my fleet has a great relationship with KM and it's members and we'd work something out if someone was ready to take a faction.

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    i don't see how you are saying anything different than I said. How is "we'd work something out" and ask for permission really all that different? I freely admit that my colorfully sarcastic way of saying it has a bit of a devious flair, but it basically boils down the the same thing: KM owns Faction events, and anybody wanting to go for a Faction win must clear it with them first. I do not understand why people aren't more upset by this, it is bullying-adjacent. It's like they all control the only working water fountain and you have to be nice to them or they won't let you drink from it. I respect you a lot @SSR Barkley and I hear your words, I'm just not wired in such a way that I'd willingly "kiss the ring" of anybody who is acting this way.

    As to @Rowden, I simply have nothing more to say to you. I make a point, and you talk around it and also seem to feel you need to defend your friend. I respect your loyalty, I'd do the same thing, but you have done or said nothing to address the fact that the aforementioned player's antics are bad for the game, or maybe you have and are doing it in a way I'm not understanding, but either way we should probably stop. But for one final time I'll speak to you using myself as a reference to hopefully get you to understand exactly what it is I am saying...

    ...I have the resources to push for a Faction win right now. I've been up there before and I've made top 5s before, I know what it takes. What i am telling you is based on what I've seen from the aforementioned player since 2020 began, I am 100% certain that no score I post will be good enough; I have been buying boost packs, rental shuttles, all of it for months and months, I've been investing in a Faction run for a very long time, and there is no point in even trying to win based on all available evidence. I'm not interested in second place, they don't have an achievement for second place, I want to win. There is to my knowledge no achievement for winning 10 events, and yet I know if I use up ALL my resources and post a crazy high score that a 9 time winner is going to spend as much money as it will take to dunk on me, just to do it, because I didn't get permission first.

    I may be alone, but I doubt it. I started this conversation to draw awareness to the fact that a big part of the longevity of games like this is hope, and the aforementioned player's behavior is killing hope. It has already impacted my spending as I've stopped buying shuttle boost packs and I'm no longer 100% buying the campaigns as I was doing that to stockpile Faction event items. The behavior of ONE player who (in theory) has nothing at all to gain by gatekeeping the leaderboard is killing hope.

    Choose whatever you want to believe, but this is conspiracy level. Also, the World is flat, global warming is a myth and the moon landings were faked. MECHAlobe controlling the game is laughable and for your information no-one has ever messaged MECHAlobe asking permission to let them win a particular event.

    No one said Mechalobe controls the game. But there's some evidence that he is acting as a gatekeeper for faction events. He finished in second place both times that other players won this year. As if to let the community know that he could have won, if he had wanted to. There's no conspiracy when it's just one player. Your compassion to conspiracy theories is a bad comparison.

    The fact that Mechalobe got second place the two times that he did not win speaks directly to this:
    Rowden wrote: »
    Bylo Band wrote: »
    When 2020 began and MECHAlobe began his monopoly on Faction events...
    Rowden wrote: »
    As I stated previously, 4 other players have won faction events in the timeframe you referenced.

    Fact check: false
    There have been 11 faction events in 2020. Mechalobe won 9, Empress Penguin won 1, and Silver Rose won 1. The last faction event of 2019 was won by @Rowden and the one before that was won by Mechalobe. As far as I can tell, that's when Mechalobe began dominance of faction events. Going back further, the only pattern that I noticed was KM being the dominant fleet.


    Rowden wrote: »

    I also don't plan to win. But if Empress Penguin is indeed in the same fleet, then @SSR Barkley was being more serious than I realized about asking to win.

    Not sure what being in the same fleet has to do with talking to Mech. But yes, I was being absolutely serious. Diplomacy goes a long way. There's some of us, including Rowden, who've been friends for a while and talk to each other to make sure we're not stepping on each other's toes.

    The game can be more about the relationships you build and the friendships you form with others.

    Maybe the reason Mech wins so many, and continues to do so convincingly is almost nobody else has bothered to come to an arrangement. What you see, instead, is the envy and loathing in the social groups and ugliness in PM's about how he continues to win events.

    What I see is dilithium.

    Indeed. I'm sure there is nuance. There's ways to minimize financial cost. But surely after the second one, stockpiled resources are gone. Dilithium is necessary. How that is optimized is certainly an interesting thought experiment.

    I find it interesting that @Rowden said something about top players proving themselves by beating someone else who is at the top of their game. Then @SSR Barkley says that the game can be more about relationships. These are interesting thoughts to me. Can they both be true at the same time?

    Yes they can be. You ideally just need to agree rules of engagement in advance. However, I've seen some explosive falling outs too.

    In response to your thought experiment it would be great if you suggest a solution to dilemma MECHAlobe found himself. His opponent dil burned to 4M VP after 1 day, a 2.2M VP lead over you. Your opponent should be capable of adding 3-4M VP over next three days. What is the most cost effective counter strategy where you still win? Surrender is not a solution.

    Your first suggestion here is that two players come to an agreement on rules of engagement. Doesn't that come down to "don't try your hardest"? And isn't that the antithesis of beating someone at the top of their game?

    As to your thought experiment, I did try that. I was debating the dilithium and dollar cost of boosts vs dilithium recalls and dilithium recalls vs rental shuttles. The numbers got pretty big to arrive at 8mil VP. I wasn't ready to put my money on the line to test it, but it was interesting to think about all the same. :)

    Rules of engagement usually means you tell them in advance you are not holding back because they are your friend. And normally that is sufficient so both parties are friends at the end.

    Other examples is some fleets like to have competitions in the gauntlet. A normal rule of engagement fleets might agree in advance is no dil. So you still try your hardest, just with more limited resources equally affecting both parties.

    Silver Rose posted a pretty good score, but nothing that Mechalobe hadn't already done before. And her 5mil was far less than the 8mil this past event. Empress Penguin's score was well below Mechalobe's normal. Not sure what "rules" were in effect other than, "hey, do I have your permission to win?"

    Remember again: I do not care that this is happening, aside from calling it what it is. If there's a gatekeeper for faction events, then it's just as well that other players recognize that so they know where to apply "diplomacy" (aka: ask permission) in order to win.

    The fact that @SSR Barkley said he is sure they could work something out is essentially recognizing that there is indeed a gatekeeper.

    As far as @Rowden knowing that no one has asked permission to win... Was your reward for being his secretary that faction event that you won in 2019? Or maybe are you just unaware of anyone asking permission because you don't have access to his private messages?

    Did you seriously just call me MECH's secretary? The most successful player in timelines history, and Admiral of the most successful fleet in timelines history is MECHAlobes secretary?

    I know you guys are trying to provoke me but that was low.
  • Well it's either him or Paladin27, so 50/50 shot.
  • RowdenRowden ✭✭✭
    edited August 2020
    KM has 44 event wins. Next most successful fleets are Ruffriders and Assimilated Federation joint on 17 wins. If anything the claim I made was watered down.

    Also not the point I was making.
  • RowdenRowden ✭✭✭
    edited August 2020
    My point is you just told me I'm MECH's secretary and I need permission from him to win events. I do not. You also suggest SilverRose needs permission from MECH. I'm pretty sure she's hopping mad.
  • I'm so annoyed no one tagged me while talking about me here.

    First of all, the hate for winners - all winners - is awful in this game. I got so many hateful PMs for the faction win y'all are talking about that I did a SilverWorst Challenge where I donated $100 to charity for every horrible PM I got. I started on Sunday and raised $1,500.

    Your reputation matters. My reputation is that I am the dumbest wallet in the game. Remember Musketeer La Forge? Last I checked, I have higher VIP points than Paladin. I have all characters except that dastardly Red Angel. Long story short, the 100k dil I keep on hand at all times is not my limit to spend on anything.

    If the dumbest wallet in the game were to challenge you to a urination contest, it's not going to end in a win for anything except for TP. This is an example of the aggressive diplomacy you all were questioning earlier.

    MECH and I aren't ever going to go head to head because it would be the worst chicken match for this game ever. Remember Brofleet? I won that faction vs RR RishScot who was the big faction event buyer in the game at that time. That was a similar game of dumb wallet chicken which also ended in a truce. Both players were smart enough to realize that it's not a win at that point but a loss for both players.

    As I've said a few times, I'm all for new players dominating events. It's one of the reasons why I've published our eXo event guides publicly (https://www.bookofexo.com/blog).

    But if you're going to challenge MECH, I'd recommend not insulting him to do it. There's no honor in that, and it's just plain rude. This community is both great and awful, and that - along with a lot of this thread - is just letting the awful win.

    Also, set aside $2,000. That's my general faction event win budget. If MECH won't destroy you, I might.
    Proud Former Admiral of eXodus
    Proud Former Officer of The Gluten Empire

    Retired 12-14-20. So long, and thanks for all the cat pics!
  • (HGH)Apollo(HGH)Apollo ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 2020
    Banjo1012 wrote: »
    Well it's either him or Paladin27, so 50/50 shot.

    I think we can all agree that Rowden, Paladin, and SilverRose are all first ballot hall of famers. The “who is the best” part is subjective.

    Agreed. So many different qualities, accomplishments, fun had, people recruited to the game, etc. etc. to call any one person best. People have so many different amounts of time to spend, money to spend, desire, access to good Wi-Fi, health, to call anyone best simply because that person has more event wins. It is also very much against the spirit of Star Trek.
    Let’s fly!
  • What do the people of KM contribute

    What does this incessantly long and unnecessary post contribute, other than sour grapes?
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