I don’t think DB hates archer, they just understand that enterprise was not a very good series. Which was largely do to the writers of the show. I think Scott Bakula made a decent captain. Much better than Sisko IMHO. However, DS9 was still better despite him.
I’ve also been rewatching ENT and find that it’s a lot better than I originally thought. I commented elsewhere in the last few days that one of the problems was poor supporting cast development: outside of a few token episodes, Hoshi, Travis, and Malcolm all feel underdeveloped. The writers focused a little too much on Archer, T’Pol, and Tucker (with some less frequent love for Phlox) and the show suffered for it.
I’ll use a fun exercise to help solidify my point. What are the three primary characters from each series?
Now, arguments could be made that DS9, Voyager, and TNG were able to flesh out more characters because they ran longer and that they did more heavily feature certain characters over others, but they did partially ignore some important characters (Chakotay especially), although not to the extent of Enterprise. I give TOS a pass in part due to the nostalgia factor and in part to how very well those three characters worked together.
You forgot Kira on your DS9 list. So that's seven.
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I don’t think DB hates archer, they just understand that enterprise was not a very good series. Which was largely do to the writers of the show. I think Scott Bakula made a decent captain. Much better than Sisko IMHO. However, DS9 was still better despite him.
I’ve also been rewatching ENT and find that it’s a lot better than I originally thought. I commented elsewhere in the last few days that one of the problems was poor supporting cast development: outside of a few token episodes, Hoshi, Travis, and Malcolm all feel underdeveloped. The writers focused a little too much on Archer, T’Pol, and Tucker (with some less frequent love for Phlox) and the show suffered for it.
I’ll use a fun exercise to help solidify my point. What are the three primary characters from each series?
Now, arguments could be made that DS9, Voyager, and TNG were able to flesh out more characters because they ran longer and that they did more heavily feature certain characters over others, but they did partially ignore some important characters (Chakotay especially), although not to the extent of Enterprise. I give TOS a pass in part due to the nostalgia factor and in part to how very well those three characters worked together.
You forgot Kira on your DS9 list. So that's seven.
“Treason, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.” - Elim Garak
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I loved Archer. And while it may not have been the best show, I will put the stand alone 3rd season against any season. A good encapsulated story line that is one of the best put together seasons ever. However I digress.
It has featured plenty of Enterprise crew and characters. NEVER featuring the captain of the series can only being a specific snub, and that should not happen in a game that is about all stages of Star Trek.
I don’t think DB hates archer, they just understand that enterprise was not a very good series. Which was largely do to the writers of the show. I think Scott Bakula made a decent captain. Much better than Sisko IMHO. However, DS9 was still better despite him.
I’ve also been rewatching ENT and find that it’s a lot better than I originally thought. I commented elsewhere in the last few days that one of the problems was poor supporting cast development: outside of a few token episodes, Hoshi, Travis, and Malcolm all feel underdeveloped. The writers focused a little too much on Archer, T’Pol, and Tucker (with some less frequent love for Phlox) and the show suffered for it.
I’ll use a fun exercise to help solidify my point. What are the three primary characters from each series?
Now, arguments could be made that DS9, Voyager, and TNG were able to flesh out more characters because they ran longer and that they did more heavily feature certain characters over others, but they did partially ignore some important characters (Chakotay especially), although not to the extent of Enterprise. I give TOS a pass in part due to the nostalgia factor and in part to how very well those three characters worked together.
You forgot Kira on your DS9 list. So that's seven.
So I did...oops. Come to think of it, an argument could be made to add Quark as well, given that he got at least few special episodes to himself.
I don’t think DB hates archer, they just understand that enterprise was not a very good series. Which was largely do to the writers of the show. I think Scott Bakula made a decent captain. Much better than Sisko IMHO. However, DS9 was still better despite him.
I’ve also been rewatching ENT and find that it’s a lot better than I originally thought. I commented elsewhere in the last few days that one of the problems was poor supporting cast development: outside of a few token episodes, Hoshi, Travis, and Malcolm all feel underdeveloped. The writers focused a little too much on Archer, T’Pol, and Tucker (with some less frequent love for Phlox) and the show suffered for it.
I’ll use a fun exercise to help solidify my point. What are the three primary characters from each series?
Now, arguments could be made that DS9, Voyager, and TNG were able to flesh out more characters because they ran longer and that they did more heavily feature certain characters over others, but they did partially ignore some important characters (Chakotay especially), although not to the extent of Enterprise. I give TOS a pass in part due to the nostalgia factor and in part to how very well those three characters worked together.
You forgot Kira on your DS9 list. So that's seven.
So I did...oops. Come to think of it, an argument could be made to add Quark as well, given that he got at least few special episodes to himself.
The argument could certainly be made for Quark being a main character, but I typically consider him a bit more secondary (but still more prominent than a character like Garak or Jake). And by the 5th season onward, I'd say Nog could be considered main cast as well.
Honestly, you could probably add Neelix and Kes (for the seasons where she was there anyway) to VOY too.
All this to say, Star Trek has always been an ensemble show. Even when that "ensemble" is 3 characters, the secondary characters were typically still pretty strong when given space and time (such as Scotty and Uhura in TOS or Hoshi and Reed in ENT). Except DSC where they decided having a main character is suddenly a really good idea, despite having some otherwise interesting side-characters.
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Malcom wasn't that bad, he got his part in season 4 with his Section 31 arc. In season 5 Shran would join in and he and Malcom would have a common arc.
Malcom wasn't that bad, he got his part in season 4 with his Section 31 arc. In season 5 Shran would join in and he and Malcom would have a common arc.
Reed got more attention than Hoshi and Mayweather, definitely. And his friendship with Tucker offered some good development. I'd say he was a bit below Phlox as far as being given attention by the writers.
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It is very cool to see people coming around on Enterprise. For a while there I felt alone on an island as the only one who liked it. I took heat for it for quite some time.
Some here on the forum turned me on to DS9. Y’all convinced me to binge it and I’m very glad I did. I’m glad some people are re-watching Enterprise, or even watching it for the first time. Perhaps out of pride I will revert back to my original forum name “Enterprise Was Best”
It is very cool to see people coming around on Enterprise. For a while there I felt alone on an island as the only one who liked it. I took heat for it for quite some time.
Some here on the forum turned me on to DS9. Y’all convinced me to binge it and I’m very glad I did. I’m glad some people are re-watching Enterprise, or even watching it for the first time. Perhaps out of pride I will revert back to my original forum name “Enterprise Was Best”
It's really all about perspective. I was an enterprise hater as well and considered it almost non-cannon. Then I saw Discovery and my eyes and ears started to bleed and Enterprise seemed great in comparison. Enterprise at least doesn't make me vomit so I'll give it that.
It is very cool to see people coming around on Enterprise. For a while there I felt alone on an island as the only one who liked it. I took heat for it for quite some time.
Some here on the forum turned me on to DS9. Y’all convinced me to binge it and I’m very glad I did. I’m glad some people are re-watching Enterprise, or even watching it for the first time. Perhaps out of pride I will revert back to my original forum name “Enterprise Was Best”
It's really all about perspective. I was an enterprise hater as well and considered it almost non-cannon. Then I saw Discovery and my eyes and ears started to bleed and Enterprise seemed great in comparison. Enterprise at least doesn't make me vomit so I'll give it that.
I wonder how much perspective and timing does color.
I went a completely different direction. Enterprise broke me from being chained to Trek in many ways, as I'd always watch what was new and hope it'd get better. Then I expanded my horizons -- when I want Trek I go watch some TOS to Voyager, but if I want something new there are other shows that give me what I got out of older Trek in many ways.
The last time I watched ENT, I compared it not just to other Treks but other shows I was watching at the time and washed my hands of it.
The question at hand is why DB hates Jonathan Archer. All the bickering over which show is best does not answer the question.
Even if he were the least liked captain, (though, again, I personally like him,) there is no reason for the animosity DM shows him. It is not simply having fewer cards. It is blatantly leaving him out of story lines that he should be in.
?
Exactly so. I also like him, but that’s beside the point. A few cards of his exist so it’s unlikely to be a rights issue. It seems to be personal. And that is not cool. If he doesn’t show up in a event really soon I will be pretty near the end of my tether with this game. Simply because I feel it is so uneven handed. If it’s supposed to be a running gag, it’s a bit pathetic.
“Holodeck 2 tomorrow, 1600 hours. Just you, me and a tuning fork”
It is very cool to see people coming around on Enterprise. For a while there I felt alone on an island as the only one who liked it. I took heat for it for quite some time.
Some here on the forum turned me on to DS9. Y’all convinced me to binge it and I’m very glad I did. I’m glad some people are re-watching Enterprise, or even watching it for the first time. Perhaps out of pride I will revert back to my original forum name “Enterprise Was Best”
Count me among the Enterprise fans. (I hear admitting you have a problem is the first step. )
I was quite sad when it was cancelled, since it was really starting to get going.
And you should totally change your name back, since I didn't even realize it was you.
It is very cool to see people coming around on Enterprise. For a while there I felt alone on an island as the only one who liked it. I took heat for it for quite some time.
Some here on the forum turned me on to DS9. Y’all convinced me to binge it and I’m very glad I did. I’m glad some people are re-watching Enterprise, or even watching it for the first time. Perhaps out of pride I will revert back to my original forum name “Enterprise Was Best”
Count me among the Enterprise fans. (I hear admitting you have a problem is the first step. )
I was quite sad when it was cancelled, since it was really starting to get going.
And you should totally change your name back, since I didn't even realize it was you.
I do recall there was a small movement to protest its cancellation but alas the cancellation stood. I changed my name then stayed away for about a month. It was very refreshing but I returned. Despite the ridiculously mundane complaints, bickering, and people telling me I’m wrong on the tiniest little technicalities, in the end, there is very useful information and announcements here.
The question at hand is why DB hates Jonathan Archer. All the bickering over which show is best does not answer the question.
Even if he were the least liked captain, (though, again, I personally like him,) there is no reason for the animosity DM shows him. It is not simply having fewer cards. It is blatantly leaving him out of story lines that he should be in.
?
Exactly so. I also like him, but that’s beside the point. A few cards of his exist so it’s unlikely to be a rights issue. It seems to be personal. And that is not cool. If he doesn’t show up in a event really soon I will be pretty near the end of my tether with this game. Simply because I feel it is so uneven handed. If it’s supposed to be a running gag, it’s a bit pathetic.
It's either a running gag or a personal dislike by someone high up, just like it is in the opposite direction with Janeway.
I never thought Bakula did a good job as Archer. Let's have the casting the way it should have been and have a Jeffrey Combs Archer.
I don't have an issue with him in ENT, but to anyone who is not a fan of Bakula as Archer, just realize it could've been a lot worse. For example: yesterday I started rewatching Earth: Final Conflict from the beginning, and I'd forgotten how wooden Kevin Kilner was in the role of Boone. Another example: Michael O'Hare as Sinclair in the first few seasons of B5. Your average ventriloquist's dummy looks positively animated by comparison. Whether or not Bakula was the right choice for Archer casting-wise, he can at least emote.
Could you please continue the petty bickering? I find it most intriguing. ~ Data, ST:TNG "Haven"
I never thought Bakula did a good job as Archer. Let's have the casting the way it should have been and have a Jeffrey Combs Archer.
I don't have an issue with him in ENT, but to anyone who is not a fan of Bakula as Archer, just realize it could've been a lot worse. For example: yesterday I started rewatching Earth: Final Conflict from the beginning, and I'd forgotten how wooden Kevin Kilner was in the role of Boone. Another example: Michael O'Hare as Sinclair in the first few seasons of B5. Your average ventriloquist's dummy looks positively animated by comparison. Whether or not Bakula was the right choice for Archer casting-wise, he can at least emote.
Bakula was great in Quantum Leap but I just felt he was not good in Enterprise, especially the first couple seasons. A lot of that could have been the writing. Every time there was a scene with Bakula and Jeffrey Combs you would see Combs outact him. In Michael O'Hare's defense after he got the job he had a catastrophic mental health issue that serious limited his abilities and forced him to retire from acting.
You could argue that it's writing that makes early Archer awkard but I think that it could be on purpose, he is an everyday guy, extremly good pilot and a solid warp theorist who was given an enormous responsibility and he like nobody on Earth doesn't have any idea what the **tsk tsk** is he doing.
He is naive at the beginning. He doesn't have Picard's diplomatic training for meeting new species he only has a crude Vulcan database of some species. So he **tsk tsk** up a lot of first contacts. He ends up beaten almost every episode.
But soon he learns from experience and grows into a leader and hero.
I never thought Bakula did a good job as Archer. Let's have the casting the way it should have been and have a Jeffrey Combs Archer.
I don't have an issue with him in ENT, but to anyone who is not a fan of Bakula as Archer, just realize it could've been a lot worse. For example: yesterday I started rewatching Earth: Final Conflict from the beginning, and I'd forgotten how wooden Kevin Kilner was in the role of Boone. Another example: Michael O'Hare as Sinclair in the first few seasons of B5. Your average ventriloquist's dummy looks positively animated by comparison. Whether or not Bakula was the right choice for Archer casting-wise, he can at least emote.
Michael O’Hare had specific health issues which were not properly attended to and thus affected morale on sets as well. See changes to how actors emoted and writing was better when that was addressed.
It could have been worse is not exactly a ringing endorsement......
So the moral of the story for me here would be Bakula could have been replaced with someone who could rock the house like Boxleitner.
Or Voyager could have done the original Canuck as Janeway and could have made that show sink even deeper.
(shrug)
Enterprise happened. (Like B5 Season 1) Love it or hate it or just not care, it would be good for the last two regular cast members to have their lil moment in the sun in an event.
My guess? The next two megas will have an Archer appearance and a Kes appearance. I'm gonna get a belly laugh seeing which one gets shoehorned into the DS9/Augment mega. I mean I love Scotty, and I love he had his first event, but that was almost as awkward as some of the DSC in the Andorian event.
Maybe we will see Augment Archer representing Khans folks facing off against The Sisko. Kes in a DS9 uniform?
And it is very tragic with O'Hare. I've dealt with loved ones with Paranoid Schizophrenia, and I find it remarkable that he was able to show up at all and get any scenes in the can.
I never thought Bakula did a good job as Archer. Let's have the casting the way it should have been and have a Jeffrey Combs Archer.
I don't have an issue with him in ENT, but to anyone who is not a fan of Bakula as Archer, just realize it could've been a lot worse. For example: yesterday I started rewatching Earth: Final Conflict from the beginning, and I'd forgotten how wooden Kevin Kilner was in the role of Boone. Another example: Michael O'Hare as Sinclair in the first few seasons of B5. Your average ventriloquist's dummy looks positively animated by comparison. Whether or not Bakula was the right choice for Archer casting-wise, he can at least emote.
Boone was bad, but Liam Kincaid was worse. I think that if Kevin Kilner had actually stuck around, he would have softened out and gotten into it.
I like Scott Bakula as Archer. He was kind of odd, quirky, inexperienced, but excitable. He didn't really know what he was doing, he was a pilot first and foremost. But he was excited to have his job, do humanity proud and go exploring around the galaxy. I find that most people who take issue with him dislike how he didn't have the instant commanding nature that Picard, Kirk, Sisko and Janeway had. He was kind of awkward, but then, Starfleet Academy wasn't exactly a well-established institution churning out Captains by the dozen, and this was his very first command.
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You forgot Kira on your DS9 list. So that's seven.
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You forgot Kira on your DS9 list. So that's seven.
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It has featured plenty of Enterprise crew and characters. NEVER featuring the captain of the series can only being a specific snub, and that should not happen in a game that is about all stages of Star Trek.
"Faith Manages."
So I did...oops. Come to think of it, an argument could be made to add Quark as well, given that he got at least few special episodes to himself.
The argument could certainly be made for Quark being a main character, but I typically consider him a bit more secondary (but still more prominent than a character like Garak or Jake). And by the 5th season onward, I'd say Nog could be considered main cast as well.
Honestly, you could probably add Neelix and Kes (for the seasons where she was there anyway) to VOY too.
All this to say, Star Trek has always been an ensemble show. Even when that "ensemble" is 3 characters, the secondary characters were typically still pretty strong when given space and time (such as Scotty and Uhura in TOS or Hoshi and Reed in ENT). Except DSC where they decided having a main character is suddenly a really good idea, despite having some otherwise interesting side-characters.
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Reed got more attention than Hoshi and Mayweather, definitely. And his friendship with Tucker offered some good development. I'd say he was a bit below Phlox as far as being given attention by the writers.
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Some here on the forum turned me on to DS9. Y’all convinced me to binge it and I’m very glad I did. I’m glad some people are re-watching Enterprise, or even watching it for the first time. Perhaps out of pride I will revert back to my original forum name “Enterprise Was Best”
It's really all about perspective. I was an enterprise hater as well and considered it almost non-cannon. Then I saw Discovery and my eyes and ears started to bleed and Enterprise seemed great in comparison. Enterprise at least doesn't make me vomit so I'll give it that.
I wonder how much perspective and timing does color.
I went a completely different direction. Enterprise broke me from being chained to Trek in many ways, as I'd always watch what was new and hope it'd get better. Then I expanded my horizons -- when I want Trek I go watch some TOS to Voyager, but if I want something new there are other shows that give me what I got out of older Trek in many ways.
The last time I watched ENT, I compared it not just to other Treks but other shows I was watching at the time and washed my hands of it.
But it is definitely more "Trekky" than DSC.
Exactly so. I also like him, but that’s beside the point. A few cards of his exist so it’s unlikely to be a rights issue. It seems to be personal. And that is not cool. If he doesn’t show up in a event really soon I will be pretty near the end of my tether with this game. Simply because I feel it is so uneven handed. If it’s supposed to be a running gag, it’s a bit pathetic.
I was quite sad when it was cancelled, since it was really starting to get going.
And you should totally change your name back, since I didn't even realize it was you.
I do recall there was a small movement to protest its cancellation but alas the cancellation stood. I changed my name then stayed away for about a month. It was very refreshing but I returned. Despite the ridiculously mundane complaints, bickering, and people telling me I’m wrong on the tiniest little technicalities, in the end, there is very useful information and announcements here.
It's either a running gag or a personal dislike by someone high up, just like it is in the opposite direction with Janeway.
I don't have an issue with him in ENT, but to anyone who is not a fan of Bakula as Archer, just realize it could've been a lot worse. For example: yesterday I started rewatching Earth: Final Conflict from the beginning, and I'd forgotten how wooden Kevin Kilner was in the role of Boone. Another example: Michael O'Hare as Sinclair in the first few seasons of B5. Your average ventriloquist's dummy looks positively animated by comparison. Whether or not Bakula was the right choice for Archer casting-wise, he can at least emote.
Could you please continue the petty bickering? I find it most intriguing.
~ Data, ST:TNG "Haven"
Bakula was great in Quantum Leap but I just felt he was not good in Enterprise, especially the first couple seasons. A lot of that could have been the writing. Every time there was a scene with Bakula and Jeffrey Combs you would see Combs outact him. In Michael O'Hare's defense after he got the job he had a catastrophic mental health issue that serious limited his abilities and forced him to retire from acting.
He is naive at the beginning. He doesn't have Picard's diplomatic training for meeting new species he only has a crude Vulcan database of some species. So he **tsk tsk** up a lot of first contacts. He ends up beaten almost every episode.
But soon he learns from experience and grows into a leader and hero.
Michael O’Hare had specific health issues which were not properly attended to and thus affected morale on sets as well. See changes to how actors emoted and writing was better when that was addressed.
So the moral of the story for me here would be Bakula could have been replaced with someone who could rock the house like Boxleitner.
Or Voyager could have done the original Canuck as Janeway and could have made that show sink even deeper.
(shrug)
Enterprise happened. (Like B5 Season 1) Love it or hate it or just not care, it would be good for the last two regular cast members to have their lil moment in the sun in an event.
My guess? The next two megas will have an Archer appearance and a Kes appearance. I'm gonna get a belly laugh seeing which one gets shoehorned into the DS9/Augment mega. I mean I love Scotty, and I love he had his first event, but that was almost as awkward as some of the DSC in the Andorian event.
Maybe we will see Augment Archer representing Khans folks facing off against The Sisko. Kes in a DS9 uniform?
And it is very tragic with O'Hare. I've dealt with loved ones with Paranoid Schizophrenia, and I find it remarkable that he was able to show up at all and get any scenes in the can.
Boone was bad, but Liam Kincaid was worse. I think that if Kevin Kilner had actually stuck around, he would have softened out and gotten into it.
I like Scott Bakula as Archer. He was kind of odd, quirky, inexperienced, but excitable. He didn't really know what he was doing, he was a pilot first and foremost. But he was excited to have his job, do humanity proud and go exploring around the galaxy. I find that most people who take issue with him dislike how he didn't have the instant commanding nature that Picard, Kirk, Sisko and Janeway had. He was kind of awkward, but then, Starfleet Academy wasn't exactly a well-established institution churning out Captains by the dozen, and this was his very first command.
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