After all, what distinguishes a Romulan from a Vulcan? It's clearly not as much about biology as it is culture.
Those ridges on their foreheads and a lack of telepathy?
But yeah, all versions of Burnham where she's embracing or using her Vulcan training/culture should be Vulcan. But there is a point where she basically rejects it and by the end of the season she's not really acting Vulcan at all. She seems completely human, so any variants of her from that period on I'd say she shouldn't have it since she's effectively rejected her Vulcan heritage/training.
I'll concede your point about forehead ridges, though I'll argue that it's a superficial difference in terms of biological speciation. In terms of telepathy, the Romulans seem to have chosen by culture to suppress that trait:
There are also various, conflicting explanations for the Romulans' lack of telepathic ability:
In Duane's My Enemy, My Ally, Spock explains that the Romulans left Vulcan before the mental disciplines of Vulcan were fully developed, and genetic drift has caused them to lose any latent ability they might have;
This is contradicted in Duane's sequel The Romulan Way, which explains that a number of trained telepaths accompanied the Rihannsu ships leaving Vulcan, but eventually died as a result of having to use their psionic abilities to propel the ships from one star system to another; because it required a group of telepaths to train new adepts, the Rihannsu's telepaths died at a faster rate than they could be replaced; according to this novel, Vulcans in the 23rd century believe that the Romulans still possess the raw potential to produce telepaths, but will never do so without hands-on instruction from Vulcan adepts;
In the novel Sarek by A.C. Crispin, the Romulans kidnap a group of Vulcans, several decades before the Khitomer Conference, and interbreed with them, producing telepathically sensitive hybrids.
According to the Vulcan's Soul trilogy, the Romulans rejected the telepathy of the Vulcans and slaughtered or enslaved the telepaths among themselves during their exodus from Vulcan: these telepaths became the Remans. This explains why no Romulan displays telepathic skills in canon, while some Remans, such as Shinzon's Reman Viceroy, do.
In Nero, the titular character takes a drug that enables him to meditate, and to develop the skills to communicate telepathically, without mind melding.
In terms of Burnham's character progression in the series, my interpretation was that she integrated, not rejected, her human and Vulcan cultures and training.
I mean, those are all explanations taken from the novels, so it's up in the air which is actually true (if any). My headcanon was always that the intense mental control required for Vulcan emotional suppression, resulted in the development of telepathic abilities (through the creation of and/or selection for either new brain structures or chemicals being released in the brain) in a sort of quickened evolution that happened after the Schism. The result is a physiological difference between Vulcans and Romulans (enough to call them different species), but theoretically, through careful selection and training, one could "create" Vulcans from Romulans. That also goes along with what we saw in ENT, where Vulcan telepathy wasn't even that widespread yet, and it only seemed to increase its spread by TOS, when Vulcans also increased their levels of emotional control post-T'Pau (since it was kind of iffy during ENT).
The forehead ridges I always figured were something selected for due to how different Romulus is from Vulcan ecology-wise, but unrelated to telepathy/brain structure.
As for Burnham, I think we'll have to wait for further episodes to explore this (hopefully), since I don't believe it's clear at this point either way.
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still she grew up with vulcan culture just like rom has the bajoran trait
Rom married a Bajoran woman in a Bajoran ceremony and was employed by the Engineering division of the Bajoran militia. That's why he has the trait. He grew up on Ferenginar.
Which absolutely no sense. Riker marries Troi eventually. Are we going to give him the Betazoid trait? Lets give Keiko and Jennifer Sisko the Starfleet trait because of who they are married to. Also, Keiko was in he employ of the Bajoran government leading botany expeditions. When traits go beyond race to include marriage and occupation, then a whole lot of characters need trait updates.
I wasn't saying that he *should* have the Bajoran trait based on those things, only that that's the reason why DB gave him the trait.
In another thread I posted about the marriage/trait thing and how it makes sense in the case of "Klingon Bride Jadzia" because she was explicitly joining a Klingon house, but for all other cases of marriage, we don't know what the laws are and whether marrying a Bajoran (for instance) grants you full Bajoran citizenship. I think they mentioned in the case of Rom and Leeta that it does, but I'm not sure. For intra-Federation marriages it's more complicated, since they're all Federation citizens, so it's more a question of whether culturally, an alien would be embraced as a "naturalised native" by marriage (ie, whether Vulcans would consider Amanda Grayson a Vulcan due to her marriage, or whether Betazoids would consider Troi's dad or Riker a Betazoid due to their marriages). And we simply don't know about that either way.
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still she grew up with vulcan culture just like rom has the bajoran trait
Rom married a Bajoran woman in a Bajoran ceremony and was employed by the Engineering division of the Bajoran militia. That's why he has the trait. He grew up on Ferenginar.
Which absolutely no sense. Riker marries Troi eventually. Are we going to give him the Betazoid trait? Lets give Keiko and Jennifer Sisko the Starfleet trait because of who they are married to. Also, Keiko was in he employ of the Bajoran government leading botany expeditions. When traits go beyond race to include marriage and occupation, then a whole lot of characters need trait updates.
Good thing that the Summer Mega-Event will be DS9/Augments, to fill out the Collection entitled “The Eugenics War” and this discussion becomes ... wait, y’all are talking about the Vulcan trait, never mind. 😈
"In the short run, the game defines the players. But in the long run, it's us players who define the game." — Nicky Case, The Evolution of Trust
Sometimes a singular term is used to refer to three different things - a place, a species, and/or a culture. One can fit any or all of these categories to meet the criteria of the identifying trait.
Being a citizen of a planet, they adopt the term denoting that; if of the planet Bajor, one is Bajoran. Likewise if one belongs to the culture. Amanda Grayson and Michael Burnham fit these categories.
I would actually say that 1* Thomas Riker could/should get there Betazoid trait, at the time he was created he was in the first relationship with Deanna and at Farpoint she empathically/telepathically asked Will if he could still hear her..
But no other versions of Riker should as Will didn't answer..
Ds9 season 7 spoiler for those that are still new to it.
Ben and Jake Sisko should have Alien trait because of Season 7 parts 1&2 , Sisko was created directly by action if the wormhole aliens, thus Jake was also
All Burnham should have Vulcan because of the Katra, in the brig, on the shuttle in the nebula are examples of utilizing the vulcanness within her.
Family of Starfleet shouldn't get star fleet, it's a job.
But may qualify for Federation, all things pending.
I can see Keiko whole working for Bajor as having the trait, but not before or after
Rom I can, as he immersed himself in the culture. Had a Bajoran wedding to a Bajoran woman.
Ds9 final season / final 5 episodes spoiler
Leeta, if a non Canon post ds9 finale were created I could see having the the Ferengi trait given that she would no doubt be living on Ferengi home world, married to the leader of that empire, though at the same time if (and I haven't checked) if Grand Negus Rom has Bajoran trait, he shouldn't.
Katra Archer. If ever created should have Vulcan but none before or after as it was a temporary situation.
Rom didn't just marry Leeta, he was a technician on a Bajoran station and essentially joined the technical side of the Bajoran Militia. Look at what he's wearing in his 2* Uniform. That's not Starfleet and lo! he has a Bajoran combadge.
shapeshifter throughs me. I think they all have the changeling trait.
What is going on here. Are these the same trait? Should there
Side note: Odo was, for a time, made "solid" and did not have the ability to change his physical form. He was still a Changeling, however, as that's his race. Odo personae based on appearances from that period, such as Trader Odo, should have the Changeling trait, but not the Shapeshifter trait.
Stranded Odo, likewise, was racially a changeling but at that time lacked the ability to shift his shape. (That episode would have been resolved quite easily if he'd still been a shapeshifter.)
Interestingly, the only odo with shapeshifter is Trader odo. That said I think that Odo should always have shapeshifter. He was locked in such a way that he was unable to use his ability, but it is an intrinsic part of his being. He never stopped Having the biological ability, he just lost the ability to control the change, per Bashirs medical analysis.
Rom didn't just marry Leeta, he was a technician on a Bajoran station and essentially joined the technical side of the Bajoran Militia. Look at what he's wearing in his 2* Uniform. That's not Starfleet and lo! he has a Bajoran combadge.
still she grew up with vulcan culture just like rom has the bajoran trait
Rom married a Bajoran woman in a Bajoran ceremony and was employed by the Engineering division of the Bajoran militia. That's why he has the trait. He grew up on Ferenginar.
But, we were discussing more the general conundrum of assigning traits based on marriage.
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And they changed doctor to physician, so are there any superfluous physicians now. I am wondering if Dr Gillian Taylor should lose physician for example as she is PhD not MD surely?
Rom didn't just marry Leeta, he was a technician on a Bajoran station and essentially joined the technical side of the Bajoran Militia. Look at what he's wearing in his 2* Uniform. That's not Starfleet and lo! he has a Bajoran combadge.
Right. I think this is why Technician Rom is Bajoran. He is an employee of the Bajoran government and wears their uniform. I would argue that Grand Nagus Rom should no longer have the trait.
On the marriage issue: Klingon Bride Jadzia joined a Klingon House in order to marry Worf. As others stated above, it's not clear what others have or haven't done as a part of their marriage. With regard to Amanda Grayson, we don't really know for sure. She seems to have lived primarily on Vulcan after her marriage to Sarek, and in diplomatic functions she seems to primarily serve (and dress) in the ceremonial role of being his spouse rather than an independent actor. So in those ways, she seems to have adopted a Vulcan identity (at least partially) as part of her marriage.
Kudos to those citing info from the books. When I was a less-than-popular teenager in the late '80's/early '90's, I skipped social events and read a lot of ST:TNG books (Imzadi by Peter David was my favorite), but I'm largely out-of-date on such things now.
I agree on giving her the Vulcan trait because she was raised by Sarek. Rom marries a Bajoran Dabo girl and gets the Bajoran trait, Sisko is the Emissary of the Prophets and gets Bajoran trait as well. Logically a woman raised by Sarek would act more Vulcan and assume some of the traits, afflicted in flashback scenes of Discovery.
And they changed doctor to physician, so are there any superfluous physicians now. I am wondering if Dr Gillian Taylor should lose physician for example as she is PhD not MD surely?
I just ran a search in the vault for the trait, and everyone but Gillian who turned up is clearly an M.D. I suppose she could be a whale physician. I mean, they're mammals. In any event, I added her to the "Should Be Removed" section.
We are all downstream from each other and ourselves, therefore choose to be relaxed and groovy. Consider participating in civil discourse, understanding the Tardigrade, and wandering with the Subspace Eddies.
We've already had this conversation in the Trait Audit Thread.
Tcal's thread and For consistency: Burnham needs the Vulcan Trait have been Merged into this one, as well as my links to them
We are all downstream from each other and ourselves, therefore choose to be relaxed and groovy. Consider participating in civil discourse, understanding the Tardigrade, and wandering with the Subspace Eddies.
On the old forum I could have sworn we'd started something like that here on the new forum, but I couldn't find a consolidated thread. I'll try to update this first post to include whatever is pointed out by anyone else. Here are some to get us started:
MISSING
Ambassador Fox - Ambassador
Ambassador K'Ehleyr - Caregiver
Ambassador Soval - Ambassador
Ambassador Spock - Ambassador
Ambassador Troi - Ambassador
Anbo-Jyutsu Riker - Athlete
B'Etor Duras - Brutal, Villain
Berlinghoff Rasmussen - Thief
Blood Oath Jadzia Dax - Exobiology
Borg Queen - Villain
Boxer Chakotay - Spiritual
Captain Thadium Okona - Maverick, Pilot
Changeling Bashir - Shapeshifter
Changeling Founder - Cultural Figure, Shapeshifter
Colonel Karr - Undercover Operative
Commander Chakotay - Spiritual
Constable Odo - Shapeshifter
Dahar Master Kang - Duelist
Desert Michael Burnham - Vulcan
Disguised Tuvok - Undercover Operative
First Goran'Agar - Brutal
First Officer Burnham - Vulcan
Frank Hollander - Duelist
Gangster Spock - Exobiology
Graduation Michael Burnham - Vulcan
Investigator Odo - Shapeshifter
Jazz Musician Odo - Shapeshifter
Laas - Shapeshifter
Laborer Spock - Undercover Operative
Lursa Duras - Brutal, Villain
Mademoiselle de Neuf - Astrophysics, Quantum Mechanics
Maquis Chakotay - Spiritual
Morn - Thief
North Star Archer - Undercover Operative
North Star Tucker - Undercover Operative
Pel- Maverick
Princess Jadzia - Exobiology
Prisoner Michael Burnham - Vulcan
Prospect Michael Burnham - Vulcan
Resistance Neelix - Courier
Sarek - Ambassador
Seven in Blue - Astrophysics, Quantum Mechanics
Seven of Nine - Astrophysics, Quantum Mechanics
Shinzon - Romulan
Stranded Odo - Investigator
Sulan - Desperate
Suus Mahna Sarek - Ambassador
Tactical Michael Burnham - Vulcan
Temporal Agent Seven - Astrophysics, Quantum Mechanics
Temporal Prisoner Chakotay - Spiritual, Starfleet
The Duras Sisters - Brutal, Villain
The President of Earth - President
Third Remata'Klan - Brutal
Thot Gor - Brutal
Trader Odo - Investigator, Undercover Operative
Tsunkatse Seven - Astrophysics, Quantum Mechanics
Umpire Odo - Investigator, Shapeshifter
Zhian'tara Odo - Gambler, Scoundrel, Shapeshifter
SHOULD BE REMOVED
Ambassador K'Ehleyr - Brutal
Commander T'Pol - High Command
Dr. Gillian Taylor - Physician
Duelist Torres - Athlete
Grand Nagus Rom - Bajoran
Kazon Seska - Bajoran, Undercover Operative
Mirror Intendant Kira - Cardassian, Klingon
Mirror Regent Worf - Cardassian
Obsidian Order Garak - Romantic
Vic Fontaine - Merchant
FIXED!
Bartender Guinan - Civilian
Obsidian Order Garak - Interrogator
Zefram Cochrane - Pilot
I agree with most of these except. Shinzon is not Romulan he used to have the Romulan trait but DB rightly removed it. He's Human and an adopted Reman.
Transversly Rom is a bajoran citizen by marriage hence the Bajoran trait.
Burnham is not Vulcan
The Borg queen is no more a villain than a thunder storm or a virus. Arturis aptly describes the borg as a force of nature they are neither villainous or righteous they just are.
Mademouselle de Neuf should share very little traits with Seven beyond borg, human ect as it is a completely different identity stamped on her own.
Kazon Seska is still an undercover operative much like Garek is. Just because their cover is blown does not negate what they were.
After some thought, I would say that Colonel Karr should actually be Costumed rather than an Undercover Operative. He’s taking part in a holographic fantasy (albeit a violent one with drastic consequences) and is in an according costume. In this respect, his Nazi uniform is little different than the uniforms worn by RAF O’Brien and RAF Bashir, who both have the Costumed trait.
I agree with most of these except. Shinzon is not Romulan he used to have the Romulan trait but DB rightly removed it. He's Human and an adopted Reman.
Transversly Rom is a bajoran citizen by marriage hence the Bajoran trait.
The reasoning is that Shinzon was (albeit briefly) Praetor of the Romulan Star Empire. He was, in that capacity, a political Romulan.
Burnham is not Vulcan
Addressed in several previous posts.
The Borg queen is no more a villain than a thunder storm or a virus. Arturis aptly describes the borg as a force of nature they are neither villainous or righteous they just are.
I would agree that most Borg would not meet the litmus test for Villain, as their actions are all directed and controlled against their own will. That direction, however, comes from the Borg Queen. She clearly displayed malicious intent at every turn. A force of nature might bounce from one system to the next like locusts, but locusts don't scheme to go back in time to conquer. The Queen was controlling and manipulative, as demonstrated often in her interactions with Seven of Nine. She knows exactly what she's doing, why it's destructive and wrong, and she does it anyway.
Mademouselle de Neuf should share very little traits with Seven beyond borg, human ect as it is a completely different identity stamped on her own.
Makes sense. Revised!
Kazon Seska is still an undercover operative much like Garek is. Just because their cover is blown does not negate what they were.
This is where it would probably be helpful for DB to clarify how they define Spy and Undercover Operative. Spy seems to me to be a vocation, whereas Undercover Operative seems to be specific to a particular persona in which the character was actively undercover. Following that reasoning, the following changes seem in order:
Hey, nice thread.. I didn't have as much free time to keep going through and updating mine so by all means, carry on! I'll probably add some at some point
And ya I'm pretty sure I posted it here right after the forums switched over..
I agree. Janeway confirms he is a graduate of Starfleet Academy in an episode of Voyager. He should have the Starfleet trait as most all TNG era characters posses both the Starfleet and Federation trait.
Looking over a character I want, Temporal Prisoner Chakotay, and I see he's missing the Starfleet trait. Every other version of Chakotay, even Warship Chakotay and GI Chakotay have the Starfleet trait.
Temporal Prisoner Chakotay is from the episode Shattered and at no point in the episode does he stop being his Starfleet self.
And still I proclaim that all versions of Chakotay, except perhaps GI and Warship, need the Spiritual trait. Chakotay's spirituality is a pivotal point of his character all throughout VOY and it is explored many times as a theme.
I’m sure someone has noted this before but I just noticed it so I thought I’d let the forum know in general. Will Scarlet Worf is missing the traits Federation and Starfleet. I thought maybe he was suppose to be missing them but I took a look at Robin Hood Picard and Protomorphosis Worf and they both have those two traits.
If a de-evolved, monster Worf can have Federation and Starfleet than Will Scarlet Worf can too, and since Robin Hood has them, it’s not an out of the ordinary kind of thing. It’s more unusual for Worf to NOT have those traits. Ok, that’s all; just wanted to let everyone know.
Weirdly enough, I’m also Vulcan Housewife. Also, RNGesus hates me, like really, REALLY hates me.
He's Vice-Chairman of the Tal Shiar. That either merits Security or at least a Tal Shiar Trait (we have obsidian order, section 31, why no Tal Shiar)
He's Secretary of the Romulan War Plans Council. That puts him highly placed in the Romulan Government. If he's not at least a Cultural Figure he certainly is a Tactician and a member of the High Command.
I would argue that one doesn't get to be Vice-Chair of the TS without Brutal or Ruthless.
All and all, whats with the general Romulan hate? 14 characters with the Romulan trait, only one of which has Engineering and 2 have any science at all (in minuscule amounts) Nearly all of which have 4 qualities max
He's Vice-Chairman of the Tal Shiar. That either merits Security or at least a Tal Shiar Trait (we have obsidian order, section 31, why no Tal Shiar)
Security is a skill, not a trait, so that's outside the scope of this thread. Tal Shiar should definitely be a trait, and he should have it. So too should Rakal Troi (even if she was just an impostor; she was a Tal Shiar impostor!) Adding those to the list.
Also, I added Spy to Vreenak's "Should" list, with the understanding as worked out elsewhere in this thread that Spy is a vocation, akin to Ambassador or Physician.
He's Secretary of the Romulan War Plans Council. That puts him highly placed in the Romulan Government. If he's not at least a Cultural Figure he certainly is a Tactician and a member of the High Command.
I would argue that one doesn't get to be Vice-Chair of the TS without Brutal or Ruthless.
A Cultural Figure isn't so much someone in a high ranking position of authority; it's someone who has made an impact on their society. There's nothing to indicate that the average Romulan even likes Vreenak, let alone reveres him. If anything, by being vice chairman of the Tal Shiar, the average Romulan very likely despises him.
Tactician is kind of a nebulous trait. It's primarily been reserved for characters we have seen making strategic combat decisions. It feels implicit that no one becomes vice chairman of the Tal Shiar without being a tactician, but there also isn't anything in "In the Pale Moonlight" that demonstrates it. He's clever enough to catch onto Garak's scheme, but not clever enough to survive it.
As with Tactician, being Brutal may seem implicit for someone in his position, but we weren't privy to anything that establishes him as such. Ruthless is a ship trait.
All and all, whats with the general Romulan hate? 14 characters with the Romulan trait, only one of which has Engineering and 2 have any science at all (in minuscule amounts) Nearly all of which have 4 qualities max
Romulans have often gotten the short shrift. Just ask poor Caithlin Dar who came to rescue her when Sybok took hostages on Nimbus III.
While we're here HMS Bounty needs the Scout trait.
From ST: 3 just after the ship that would become the Bounty cloaks, long after the Grissom is destroyed.
CHEKOV (OC): I'd swear something that was there sir.
KIRK (OC): What did you see?
CHEKOV: For an instant ...a scout class vessel.
KIRK: Could be Grissom. Patch in the hailing frequency. Grissom, this is Enterprise calling. Please come in.
Canonically, the HMS Bounty is a 12 man crewed, B'rel class Scout. (not to be confused with its much larger (but identically shaped) K'Vort class cruiser such as the IKC Pagh, or Rotarran
He's Vice-Chairman of the Tal Shiar. That either merits Security or at least a Tal Shiar Trait (we have obsidian order, section 31, why no Tal Shiar)
He's Secretary of the Romulan War Plans Council. That puts him highly placed in the Romulan Government. If he's not at least a Cultural Figure he certainly is a Tactician and a member of the High Command.
I would argue that one doesn't get to be Vice-Chair of the TS without Brutal or Ruthless.
All and all, whats with the general Romulan hate? 14 characters with the Romulan trait, only one of which has Engineering and 2 have any science at all (in minuscule amounts) Nearly all of which have 4 qualities max
Definitely should be Tal Shiar -- and it looks like they just made that change. Excellent. I think Vreenak was ruthless based on his conversations with Sisko, etc. Tactician and Brutal aren't really demonstrated in that episode, though he probably has those qualities as the Tal Shiar V-C. So arguable.
High command is the one I'm not sure about. What is the Romulan High Command exactly? Why is Jarok a member, but no one else? Is that term, "High Command," used in the episode with Admiral Jarok?
Cadet Wesley Crusher - shouldn't he be a pilot? If memory serves, that whole episode centered around a near-impossible maneuver that he and his squad mates performed (led by Cadet Locarno, played by Robert Duncan McNeill), except the one squad mate who died didn't have the nerve to execute it right. Makes this version of Wesley actually an ace pilot. Odd that he doesn't have any command skill, too, since piloting seems to fall in that category.
Comments
I mean, those are all explanations taken from the novels, so it's up in the air which is actually true (if any). My headcanon was always that the intense mental control required for Vulcan emotional suppression, resulted in the development of telepathic abilities (through the creation of and/or selection for either new brain structures or chemicals being released in the brain) in a sort of quickened evolution that happened after the Schism. The result is a physiological difference between Vulcans and Romulans (enough to call them different species), but theoretically, through careful selection and training, one could "create" Vulcans from Romulans. That also goes along with what we saw in ENT, where Vulcan telepathy wasn't even that widespread yet, and it only seemed to increase its spread by TOS, when Vulcans also increased their levels of emotional control post-T'Pau (since it was kind of iffy during ENT).
The forehead ridges I always figured were something selected for due to how different Romulus is from Vulcan ecology-wise, but unrelated to telepathy/brain structure.
As for Burnham, I think we'll have to wait for further episodes to explore this (hopefully), since I don't believe it's clear at this point either way.
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I wasn't saying that he *should* have the Bajoran trait based on those things, only that that's the reason why DB gave him the trait.
In another thread I posted about the marriage/trait thing and how it makes sense in the case of "Klingon Bride Jadzia" because she was explicitly joining a Klingon house, but for all other cases of marriage, we don't know what the laws are and whether marrying a Bajoran (for instance) grants you full Bajoran citizenship. I think they mentioned in the case of Rom and Leeta that it does, but I'm not sure. For intra-Federation marriages it's more complicated, since they're all Federation citizens, so it's more a question of whether culturally, an alien would be embraced as a "naturalised native" by marriage (ie, whether Vulcans would consider Amanda Grayson a Vulcan due to her marriage, or whether Betazoids would consider Troi's dad or Riker a Betazoid due to their marriages). And we simply don't know about that either way.
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Good thing that the Summer Mega-Event will be DS9/Augments, to fill out the Collection entitled “The Eugenics War” and this discussion becomes ... wait, y’all are talking about the Vulcan trait, never mind. 😈
Being a citizen of a planet, they adopt the term denoting that; if of the planet Bajor, one is Bajoran. Likewise if one belongs to the culture. Amanda Grayson and Michael Burnham fit these categories.
I agree that many crew members need trait updates. Pile these onto the list.
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But no other versions of Riker should as Will didn't answer..
Ds9 season 7 spoiler for those that are still new to it.
All Burnham should have Vulcan because of the Katra, in the brig, on the shuttle in the nebula are examples of utilizing the vulcanness within her.
Family of Starfleet shouldn't get star fleet, it's a job.
But may qualify for Federation, all things pending.
I can see Keiko whole working for Bajor as having the trait, but not before or after
Rom I can, as he immersed himself in the culture. Had a Bajoran wedding to a Bajoran woman.
Ds9 final season / final 5 episodes spoiler
Katra Archer. If ever created should have Vulcan but none before or after as it was a temporary situation.
Interestingly, the only odo with shapeshifter is Trader odo. That said I think that Odo should always have shapeshifter. He was locked in such a way that he was unable to use his ability, but it is an intrinsic part of his being. He never stopped Having the biological ability, he just lost the ability to control the change, per Bashirs medical analysis.
Yes, I already said just that:
But, we were discussing more the general conundrum of assigning traits based on marriage.
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And they changed doctor to physician, so are there any superfluous physicians now. I am wondering if Dr Gillian Taylor should lose physician for example as she is PhD not MD surely?
Right. I think this is why Technician Rom is Bajoran. He is an employee of the Bajoran government and wears their uniform. I would argue that Grand Nagus Rom should no longer have the trait.
On the marriage issue: Klingon Bride Jadzia joined a Klingon House in order to marry Worf. As others stated above, it's not clear what others have or haven't done as a part of their marriage. With regard to Amanda Grayson, we don't really know for sure. She seems to have lived primarily on Vulcan after her marriage to Sarek, and in diplomatic functions she seems to primarily serve (and dress) in the ceremonial role of being his spouse rather than an independent actor. So in those ways, she seems to have adopted a Vulcan identity (at least partially) as part of her marriage.
Kudos to those citing info from the books. When I was a less-than-popular teenager in the late '80's/early '90's, I skipped social events and read a lot of ST:TNG books (Imzadi by Peter David was my favorite), but I'm largely out-of-date on such things now.
Captain Level: 95
VIP Level: 12
Unique Crew Immortalized: 525
Collections Completed: Vulcan, Ferengi, Borg, Romulan, Cardassian, Uncommon, Rare, Veteran, Common, Engineered, Physician, Innovator, Inspiring, Diplomat, Jury Rigger, Gauntlet Legends
Good catch! Updated!
I just ran a search in the vault for the trait, and everyone but Gillian who turned up is clearly an M.D. I suppose she could be a whale physician. I mean, they're mammals. In any event, I added her to the "Should Be Removed" section.
Consider participating in civil discourse, understanding the Tardigrade, and wandering with the Subspace Eddies.
We've already had this conversation in the Trait Audit Thread.
Tcal's thread and For consistency: Burnham needs the Vulcan Trait have been Merged into this one, as well as my links to them
Consider participating in civil discourse, understanding the Tardigrade, and wandering with the Subspace Eddies.
I agree with most of these except. Shinzon is not Romulan he used to have the Romulan trait but DB rightly removed it. He's Human and an adopted Reman.
Transversly Rom is a bajoran citizen by marriage hence the Bajoran trait.
Burnham is not Vulcan
The Borg queen is no more a villain than a thunder storm or a virus. Arturis aptly describes the borg as a force of nature they are neither villainous or righteous they just are.
Mademouselle de Neuf should share very little traits with Seven beyond borg, human ect as it is a completely different identity stamped on her own.
Kazon Seska is still an undercover operative much like Garek is. Just because their cover is blown does not negate what they were.
Vic Fontaine is a Merchant he owns a casino
Good catch! Added!
The reasoning is that Shinzon was (albeit briefly) Praetor of the Romulan Star Empire. He was, in that capacity, a political Romulan.
Addressed in several previous posts.
I would agree that most Borg would not meet the litmus test for Villain, as their actions are all directed and controlled against their own will. That direction, however, comes from the Borg Queen. She clearly displayed malicious intent at every turn. A force of nature might bounce from one system to the next like locusts, but locusts don't scheme to go back in time to conquer. The Queen was controlling and manipulative, as demonstrated often in her interactions with Seven of Nine. She knows exactly what she's doing, why it's destructive and wrong, and she does it anyway.
Makes sense. Revised!
This is where it would probably be helpful for DB to clarify how they define Spy and Undercover Operative. Spy seems to me to be a vocation, whereas Undercover Operative seems to be specific to a particular persona in which the character was actively undercover. Following that reasoning, the following changes seem in order:
CHANGE
Agent Harris - Change Undercover Operative change to Spy
Anastasia Komananov - Change Undercover Operative change to Spy
Bashir, Julian Bashir - Add Spy
Ensign Seska - Add Spy
Garak, Elim Garak - Add Spy
Kazon Seska - Change Undercover Operative change to Spy
Luther Sloan - Change Undercover Operative change to Spy
Obsidian Order Garak - Change Undercover Operative change to Spy
Rakal Troi - Add Spy
Section 31 Reed - Change Undercover Operative change to Spy
Tailor Garak - Change Undercover Operative change to Spy
Temporal Agent Daniels - Change Undercover Operative change to Spy
I'm adding those to the original post.
Makes sense. Removed from the, uh, SHOULD BE REMOVED section!
And ya I'm pretty sure I posted it here right after the forums switched over..
If a de-evolved, monster Worf can have Federation and Starfleet than Will Scarlet Worf can too, and since Robin Hood has them, it’s not an out of the ordinary kind of thing. It’s more unusual for Worf to NOT have those traits. Ok, that’s all; just wanted to let everyone know.
https://forum.disruptorbeam.com/stt/discussion/4049/trait-audit-thread/p1
He's Vice-Chairman of the Tal Shiar. That either merits Security or at least a Tal Shiar Trait (we have obsidian order, section 31, why no Tal Shiar)
He's Secretary of the Romulan War Plans Council. That puts him highly placed in the Romulan Government. If he's not at least a Cultural Figure he certainly is a Tactician and a member of the High Command.
I would argue that one doesn't get to be Vice-Chair of the TS without Brutal or Ruthless.
All and all, whats with the general Romulan hate? 14 characters with the Romulan trait, only one of which has Engineering and 2 have any science at all (in minuscule amounts) Nearly all of which have 4 qualities max
Security is a skill, not a trait, so that's outside the scope of this thread. Tal Shiar should definitely be a trait, and he should have it. So too should Rakal Troi (even if she was just an impostor; she was a Tal Shiar impostor!) Adding those to the list.
Also, I added Spy to Vreenak's "Should" list, with the understanding as worked out elsewhere in this thread that Spy is a vocation, akin to Ambassador or Physician.
A Cultural Figure isn't so much someone in a high ranking position of authority; it's someone who has made an impact on their society. There's nothing to indicate that the average Romulan even likes Vreenak, let alone reveres him. If anything, by being vice chairman of the Tal Shiar, the average Romulan very likely despises him.
Tactician is kind of a nebulous trait. It's primarily been reserved for characters we have seen making strategic combat decisions. It feels implicit that no one becomes vice chairman of the Tal Shiar without being a tactician, but there also isn't anything in "In the Pale Moonlight" that demonstrates it. He's clever enough to catch onto Garak's scheme, but not clever enough to survive it.
As with Tactician, being Brutal may seem implicit for someone in his position, but we weren't privy to anything that establishes him as such. Ruthless is a ship trait.
Romulans have often gotten the short shrift. Just ask poor Caithlin Dar who came to rescue her when Sybok took hostages on Nimbus III.
From ST: 3 just after the ship that would become the Bounty cloaks, long after the Grissom is destroyed.
CHEKOV (OC): I'd swear something that was there sir.
KIRK (OC): What did you see?
CHEKOV: For an instant ...a scout class vessel.
KIRK: Could be Grissom. Patch in the hailing frequency. Grissom, this is Enterprise calling. Please come in.
Canonically, the HMS Bounty is a 12 man crewed, B'rel class Scout. (not to be confused with its much larger (but identically shaped) K'Vort class cruiser such as the IKC Pagh, or Rotarran
Now bookmarked. Thanks.
Definitely should be Tal Shiar -- and it looks like they just made that change. Excellent. I think Vreenak was ruthless based on his conversations with Sisko, etc. Tactician and Brutal aren't really demonstrated in that episode, though he probably has those qualities as the Tal Shiar V-C. So arguable.
High command is the one I'm not sure about. What is the Romulan High Command exactly? Why is Jarok a member, but no one else? Is that term, "High Command," used in the episode with Admiral Jarok?
Captain Level: 95
VIP Level: 12
Unique Crew Immortalized: 525
Collections Completed: Vulcan, Ferengi, Borg, Romulan, Cardassian, Uncommon, Rare, Veteran, Common, Engineered, Physician, Innovator, Inspiring, Diplomat, Jury Rigger, Gauntlet Legends
Captain Level: 95
VIP Level: 12
Unique Crew Immortalized: 525
Collections Completed: Vulcan, Ferengi, Borg, Romulan, Cardassian, Uncommon, Rare, Veteran, Common, Engineered, Physician, Innovator, Inspiring, Diplomat, Jury Rigger, Gauntlet Legends