I really hope that they at least address it in some way before the event, even if it’s just to let everyone know that the displayed rates are in fact incorrect
I really hope that they at least address it in some way before the event, even if it’s just to let everyone know that the displayed rates are in fact incorrect
If you are capable of holding your breath that long, you're a real asset on any starship crew, as you can obviously work outside in vacuum without a suit indefinitely.
I really hope that they at least address it in some way before the event, even if it’s just to let everyone know that the displayed rates are in fact incorrect
Fortunately, this SHOULD be a server-side bug, so fixes (theoretically) are a lot easier (i.e., it doesn't need to be fixed across multiple platforms and pushed to devices, only a server push). There are tons of variables in the development process that could make this take anywhere from a week out to two or three, plus another week for QC/deploy. I wouldn't be surprised to see something from Shan next week confirming a fix is happening, but I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't until mid-May. I'm guessing 14th after next week's event finishes.
Well, this seems to be DB's biggest mess so far in the history of STT. It has been buggy for months while DB was communicating repeatedly that everything works as intended.
Luckily I didn't spend money or dilithium for shuttle speed ups or boosts. But if I was a whale, I'd wanted my huge loads of money back. Are any of the big spenders in contact with the support? I'm very interested in how they are going to work this out.
No need for targeted refunds. If people did better than others by inadvertently picking the optimal order, so be it. If someone had already figured this out and was keeping quiet about it to gain an advantage, well, good for them but the party's over now. We were all in the same boat on this one - on average, it's unlikely anyone gained a notable advantage prior to this investigation. If DB does figure out why the back end code is flawed (my preferred theory for the source of the issue), I would be sufficiently pleased if they said "oops, you guys were right, we've repaired it, and here's 10K honor for us being too stubborn to believe all the ranting was an accurate perception of a legitimate issue").
Maybe I'm just in a glass half-full kind of mood this morning.
I can't speak for players who spend a fortune on events, but I'd be pretty angry. I mean you spend 3 or 4 digit numbers for events and pay money for a displayed 90% chance to get 4.000 VP but the actual chance was only around 50%. We don't know if some players figured it out earlier and didn't burned their Dilithium for bugged shuttles. Sure, most players probably didn't know it. But if a lottery wants to sell you tickets with a claimed win chance of 90% you'd be angry as well if the actual win chance is way lower even if all players have the same lower odds.
I can't speak for players who spend a fortune on events, but I'd be pretty angry. I mean you spend 3 or 4 digit numbers for events and pay money for a displayed 90% chance to get 4.000 VP but the actual chance was only around 50%. We don't know if some players figured it out earlier and didn't burned their Dilithium for bugged shuttles. Sure, most players probably didn't know it. But if a lottery wants to sell you tickets with a claimed win chance of 90% you'd be angry as well if the actual win chance is way lower even if all players have the same lower odds.
The bigger issue for me is that when I happened to use shuttles that gave me a 60% chance instead of 90% just due to chance of which order the skills showed up in, I would lose and have to spend dilithium
on time boosts and skill boosts to try and catch up. This was just to compete with someone else who by chance just happened to put crew in slots where their skills were the other direction.
RNG shouldn't include if the shuttle slot you placed your crew in is working or not. Because of this, it didn't actually effect everyone equally.
DB:
Is there any way we can find out if this proposed bug has even been investigated, much less confirmed?
If true, this is almost certainly the most important bug in the game at present, because it can affect every active player multiple times per day, and have a significant impact in event results and ranking.
If confirmed, even if a fix will take time, disclosure to all players should be made immediately through an in-game message, so players have the opportunity to adjust their gameplay accordingly. Until this occurs, or the bug report is refuted, those of us on the forum (or other communication channels made aware of it) have a significant, unfair advantage.
Either it works as intended (coded as such) then miscommunication to us about how the AND worked
or was intended to go in either order but the code failed them.
Either way this is blanket issue, so no one really got an advantage.
To the OP, do you know if the top crew choice for a node is in keeping with how it works or if it is treating crew as to the A and B (rather than primary + secondary).
I personally have not notice a higher percentage when taking lower suggested crew (I pick lower crew during galaxy if you are babying your farmers to not go on a shuttle).
Either it works as intended (coded as such) then miscommunication to us about how the AND worked
or was intended to go in either order but the code failed them.
Either way this is blanket issue, so no one really got an advantage.
To the OP, do you know if the top crew choice for a node is in keeping with how it works or if it is treating crew as to the A and B (rather than primary + secondary).
I personally have not notice a higher percentage when taking lower suggested crew (I pick lower crew during galaxy if you are babying your farmers to not go on a shuttle).
So, your first statement is demonstrably false. The problem is the shuttle success/failure rates we are seeing do not match the expected % displayed when sending a shuttle. Either there is a problem with the display % AND with how crew is being sorted on the front end while populating a slot OR there is a problem with how the back end is determining if the mission was a success or not. They cannot possibly be reconciled. There is a flaw in the code in one place or the other.
The statement that it's a "blanket issue" might have more merit, but it still is dubious if you examine it any deeper:
Anyone who frequents the forums and is aware of the potential behavior is at an advantage relative to anyone who doesn't visit the forums.
Anyone who was able to figure out the bug before hand has been at an advantage
Anyone who simply populated their shuttles differently or had crew that adhered well to the "slot ordering" also had an advantage (even if they were unaware of it at the time)
I'm not exactly sure what you're asking in terms of the calculation, but the "official" word on how AND slots work is:
[Higher Stat] + 1/4 * [Lower Stat]
And what we suspect is that it actually being calculated as:
[First Listed Stat on Slot] + 1/4 * [Second Listed Stat on Slot]
Does it matter which order the skills are displayed for a character?
In this screen shot, will Khan's skills be shuffled so that the DIP is counted first and the COM second if I use him in the third slot?
Does it matter which order the skills are displayed for a character?
In this screen shot, will Khan's skills be shuffled so that the DIP is counted first and the COM second if I use him in the third slot?
yes, it matters what the shuttle shows, not the crew. In this case, Khan would be great in the 3rd and 4th spot. The issue is the first spot where Dukat would be terrible, his CMD stat would only count 25% since it is the second stat listed.
Does it matter which order the skills are displayed for a character?
In this screen shot, will Khan's skills be shuffled so that the DIP is counted first and the COM second if I use him in the third slot?
yes, it matters what the shuttle shows, not the crew. In this case, Khan would be great in the 3rd and 4th spot. The issue is the first spot where Dukat would be terrible, his CMD stat would only count 25% since it is the second stat listed.
I gotta tell you again, it’s amazing you discovered this. Thank you! It has made a big difference for me since I started employing it.
Does it matter which order the skills are displayed for a character?
In this screen shot, will Khan's skills be shuffled so that the DIP is counted first and the COM second if I use him in the third slot?
yes, it matters what the shuttle shows, not the crew. In this case, Khan would be great in the 3rd and 4th spot. The issue is the first spot where Dukat would be terrible, his CMD stat would only count 25% since it is the second stat listed.
I think you are wrong here. Dukat is a better option.
Does it matter which order the skills are displayed for a character?
In this screen shot, will Khan's skills be shuffled so that the DIP is counted first and the COM second if I use him in the third slot?
yes, it matters what the shuttle shows, not the crew. In this case, Khan would be great in the 3rd and 4th spot. The issue is the first spot where Dukat would be terrible, his CMD stat would only count 25% since it is the second stat listed.
I think you are wrong here. Dukat is a better option.
Sorry I wasn’t clear, he is the best option of what is shown, but any science crew would be stronger.
Does it matter which order the skills are displayed for a character?
In this screen shot, will Khan's skills be shuffled so that the DIP is counted first and the COM second if I use him in the third slot?
yes, it matters what the shuttle shows, not the crew. In this case, Khan would be great in the 3rd and 4th spot. The issue is the first spot where Dukat would be terrible, his CMD stat would only count 25% since it is the second stat listed.
I think you are wrong here. Dukat is a better option.
Sorry I wasn’t clear, he is the best option of what is shown, but any science crew would be stronger.
What are you talking about? What science crew? He asked about third slot. There is no science skill in third slot.
Does it matter which order the skills are displayed for a character?
In this screen shot, will Khan's skills be shuffled so that the DIP is counted first and the COM second if I use him in the third slot?
yes, it matters what the shuttle shows, not the crew. In this case, Khan would be great in the 3rd and 4th spot. The issue is the first spot where Dukat would be terrible, his CMD stat would only count 25% since it is the second stat listed.
I think you are wrong here. Dukat is a better option.
Sorry I wasn’t clear, he is the best option of what is shown, but any science crew would be stronger.
What are you talking about? What science crew? He asked about third slot. There is no science skill in third slot.
OP wasn’t clear what I meant by first trait plus 25% of second trait. He was concerned that khan would score poorly since he has cmd listed first. I explained that the scoring of first plus 25% the second applies to the shuttle slots. So while khan would be good in the third or fourth slot, I was trying to demonstrate a situation where putting a crew in a slot that should be solid actually isn’t. I’m this case, putting Dukat in the first slot as an example. You would think he would get a value of 548, but instead it only counts as 25% of that since the shuttle slot lists cmd second and science first. He would count as if he were a 137 CMD, not 548.
Does it matter which order the skills are displayed for a character?
In this screen shot, will Khan's skills be shuffled so that the DIP is counted first and the COM second if I use him in the third slot?
yes, it matters what the shuttle shows, not the crew. In this case, Khan would be great in the 3rd and 4th spot. The issue is the first spot where Dukat would be terrible, his CMD stat would only count 25% since it is the second stat listed.
I think you are wrong here. Dukat is a better option.
Sorry I wasn’t clear, he is the best option of what is shown, but any science crew would be stronger.
What are you talking about? What science crew? He asked about third slot. There is no science skill in third slot.
OP wasn’t clear what I meant by first trait plus 25% of second trait. He was concerned that khan would score poorly since he has cmd listed first. I explained that the scoring of first plus 25% the second applies to the shuttle slots. So while khan would be good in the third or fourth slot, I was trying to demonstrate a situation where putting a crew in a slot that should be solid actually isn’t. I’m this case, putting Dukat in the first slot as an example. You would think he would get a value of 548, but instead it only counts as 25% of that since the shuttle slot lists cmd second and science first. He would count as if he were a 137 CMD, not 548.
"In this screen shot, will Khan's skills be shuffled so that the DIP is counted first and the COM second if I use him in the third slot?"
What is not clear about his question? He wasn't concerned about slots involving science.
Does it matter which order the skills are displayed for a character?
In this screen shot, will Khan's skills be shuffled so that the DIP is counted first and the COM second if I use him in the third slot?
yes, it matters what the shuttle shows, not the crew. In this case, Khan would be great in the 3rd and 4th spot. The issue is the first spot where Dukat would be terrible, his CMD stat would only count 25% since it is the second stat listed.
I think you are wrong here. Dukat is a better option.
Sorry I wasn’t clear, he is the best option of what is shown, but any science crew would be stronger.
What are you talking about? What science crew? He asked about third slot. There is no science skill in third slot.
OP wasn’t clear what I meant by first trait plus 25% of second trait. He was concerned that khan would score poorly since he has cmd listed first. I explained that the scoring of first plus 25% the second applies to the shuttle slots. So while khan would be good in the third or fourth slot, I was trying to demonstrate a situation where putting a crew in a slot that should be solid actually isn’t. I’m this case, putting Dukat in the first slot as an example. You would think he would get a value of 548, but instead it only counts as 25% of that since the shuttle slot lists cmd second and science first. He would count as if he were a 137 CMD, not 548.
"In this screen shot, will Khan's skills be shuffled so that the DIP is counted first and the COM second if I use him in the third slot?"
What is not clear about his question? He wasn't concerned about slots involving science.
Never mind, we are talking past each other, I’m aware and answered the original question and then proposed a second case, to try to add more clarity sorry if it added more confusion.
FYI I got it. It's because Kahn has cmd listed first even though he is a diplomacy primary. It can figure out which stat is the highest. It just doesn't know the order to calculate.
FYI I got it. It's because Kahn has cmd listed first even though he is a diplomacy primary. It can figure out which stat is the highest. It just doesn't know the order to calculate.
I think you got it. Look at the order the skills are listed on the shuttle, (in this case diplomacy, then command) ignore the order they are listed on the crew.
Thank you all for your input and your hard work in finding and describing the bug.
I understood and apprecite the extra clarity of the Dukat in slot 1 example @[TFA] GTMET provided.
While I am an active player, I don't have the resources (time or money) to do the extensive research you (all researchers) undertake and appreciate the efforts you make the game more enjoyable for all of us.
I am lost in this conversation mostly because I have no idea what you mean by AND slots.... can someone break this down for us guys who aren't programmers and statistics majors (use small words :P)
Comments
https://forum.disruptorbeam.com/stt/discussion/comment/73031/#Comment_73031
If you are capable of holding your breath that long, you're a real asset on any starship crew, as you can obviously work outside in vacuum without a suit indefinitely.
Fortunately, this SHOULD be a server-side bug, so fixes (theoretically) are a lot easier (i.e., it doesn't need to be fixed across multiple platforms and pushed to devices, only a server push). There are tons of variables in the development process that could make this take anywhere from a week out to two or three, plus another week for QC/deploy. I wouldn't be surprised to see something from Shan next week confirming a fix is happening, but I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't until mid-May. I'm guessing 14th after next week's event finishes.
I can't speak for players who spend a fortune on events, but I'd be pretty angry. I mean you spend 3 or 4 digit numbers for events and pay money for a displayed 90% chance to get 4.000 VP but the actual chance was only around 50%. We don't know if some players figured it out earlier and didn't burned their Dilithium for bugged shuttles. Sure, most players probably didn't know it. But if a lottery wants to sell you tickets with a claimed win chance of 90% you'd be angry as well if the actual win chance is way lower even if all players have the same lower odds.
The bigger issue for me is that when I happened to use shuttles that gave me a 60% chance instead of 90% just due to chance of which order the skills showed up in, I would lose and have to spend dilithium
on time boosts and skill boosts to try and catch up. This was just to compete with someone else who by chance just happened to put crew in slots where their skills were the other direction.
RNG shouldn't include if the shuttle slot you placed your crew in is working or not. Because of this, it didn't actually effect everyone equally.
8: ***** Time boosts
12: **** Time Boosts
24: *** Time Boosts
8: **** SEC
8: **** DIP
8: **** CMD
Is there any way we can find out if this proposed bug has even been investigated, much less confirmed?
If true, this is almost certainly the most important bug in the game at present, because it can affect every active player multiple times per day, and have a significant impact in event results and ranking.
If confirmed, even if a fix will take time, disclosure to all players should be made immediately through an in-game message, so players have the opportunity to adjust their gameplay accordingly. Until this occurs, or the bug report is refuted, those of us on the forum (or other communication channels made aware of it) have a significant, unfair advantage.
or was intended to go in either order but the code failed them.
Either way this is blanket issue, so no one really got an advantage.
To the OP, do you know if the top crew choice for a node is in keeping with how it works or if it is treating crew as to the A and B (rather than primary + secondary).
I personally have not notice a higher percentage when taking lower suggested crew (I pick lower crew during galaxy if you are babying your farmers to not go on a shuttle).
So, your first statement is demonstrably false. The problem is the shuttle success/failure rates we are seeing do not match the expected % displayed when sending a shuttle. Either there is a problem with the display % AND with how crew is being sorted on the front end while populating a slot OR there is a problem with how the back end is determining if the mission was a success or not. They cannot possibly be reconciled. There is a flaw in the code in one place or the other.
The statement that it's a "blanket issue" might have more merit, but it still is dubious if you examine it any deeper:
I'm not exactly sure what you're asking in terms of the calculation, but the "official" word on how AND slots work is:
[Higher Stat] + 1/4 * [Lower Stat]
And what we suspect is that it actually being calculated as:
[First Listed Stat on Slot] + 1/4 * [Second Listed Stat on Slot]
Display showed 99% but it could have been as low as 10% if you picked someone with only the 2nd stat
In this screen shot, will Khan's skills be shuffled so that the DIP is counted first and the COM second if I use him in the third slot?
yes, it matters what the shuttle shows, not the crew. In this case, Khan would be great in the 3rd and 4th spot. The issue is the first spot where Dukat would be terrible, his CMD stat would only count 25% since it is the second stat listed.
I gotta tell you again, it’s amazing you discovered this. Thank you! It has made a big difference for me since I started employing it.
I think you are wrong here. Dukat is a better option.
Sorry I wasn’t clear, he is the best option of what is shown, but any science crew would be stronger.
What are you talking about? What science crew? He asked about third slot. There is no science skill in third slot.
OP wasn’t clear what I meant by first trait plus 25% of second trait. He was concerned that khan would score poorly since he has cmd listed first. I explained that the scoring of first plus 25% the second applies to the shuttle slots. So while khan would be good in the third or fourth slot, I was trying to demonstrate a situation where putting a crew in a slot that should be solid actually isn’t. I’m this case, putting Dukat in the first slot as an example. You would think he would get a value of 548, but instead it only counts as 25% of that since the shuttle slot lists cmd second and science first. He would count as if he were a 137 CMD, not 548.
"In this screen shot, will Khan's skills be shuffled so that the DIP is counted first and the COM second if I use him in the third slot?"
What is not clear about his question? He wasn't concerned about slots involving science.
Never mind, we are talking past each other, I’m aware and answered the original question and then proposed a second case, to try to add more clarity sorry if it added more confusion.
I think you got it. Look at the order the skills are listed on the shuttle, (in this case diplomacy, then command) ignore the order they are listed on the crew.
Yeah, I’d be pretty surprised if there were 2 bugs and not just one though
I understood and apprecite the extra clarity of the Dukat in slot 1 example @[TFA] GTMET provided.
While I am an active player, I don't have the resources (time or money) to do the extensive research you (all researchers) undertake and appreciate the efforts you make the game more enjoyable for all of us.