I am lost in this conversation mostly because I have no idea what you mean by AND slots.... can someone break this down for us guys who aren't programmers and statistics majors (use small words :P)
Thanks Drax.... OK now I get it.... ironically when I looked at a mission it did not have an "And slot"... it only had Or slots
The problem is DB don't understand that (A and is the same as (B and A).
That is a very good explanation .... now that I get it, I can explain it to the people in our fleet who are struggling with lots of failed shuttles at 99/98 percent
I'm pretty certain i understand this but can i just get clarification for one thing, See screenshot.
It doesn't matter that sarek has the first skill not being listed in the and statement he is still the best choice for the 2nd slot even though science is first in his listing because its not mentioned in the 2nd slot it doesn't matter correct ?
The question is if the first skill listed for a crew matters. While it's always possible, I personally didn't see it's impact on AND missions. In fact after a fail or success it does show a Crews primary trait so feel free to use Sarek.
Using Nagus Rom you see CMD listed as his first skill but he is a diplomacy primary guy:
I haven't had unusual fails with him and on the return screen, it shows diplomacy as his main skill:
So obviously the display could be wrong but I'm closer to the shown percentage now by focusing on the first AND skill. Not the characters first skill.
Now if we can only figure out if there is significance to them flipping seats mid flight...
The question is if the first skill listed for a crew matters. While it's always possible, I personally didn't see it's impact on AND missions. In fact after a fail or success it does show a Crews primary trait so feel free to use Sarek.
Using Nagus Rom you see CMD listed as his first skill but he is a diplomacy primary guy:
I haven't had unusual fails with him and on the return screen, it shows diplomacy as his main skill:
So obviously the display could be wrong but I'm closer to the shown percentage now by focusing on the first AND skill. Not the characters first skill.
Now if we can only figure out if there is significance to them flipping seats mid flight...
Here's a question, how does this affect boosts? Like in your example shuttle above, there's three Com slots so using a Com boost will list the highest predicted success percentage. But they're all second-and slots, so are they only counting for 25% of each, and so the boost helps minimally? Better-off with a Dip boost?
I assume that the boosts are added to the character's value and then the shuttle multiplier is calculated. Therefore, any boosts applied to the second AND skills would be hit with the .25 multiplier. If you applied the boost to the 2nd AND skill of 3 slots, you would effectively only get 75% of the boost's value. Based on this assumption I have been only looking at the 1st AND skill when I am choosing a skill to boost.
Here's a question, how does this affect boosts? Like in your example shuttle above, there's three Com slots so using a Com boost will list the highest predicted success percentage. But they're all second-and slots, so are they only counting for 25% of each, and so the boost helps minimally? Better-off with a Dip boost?
I have another (perhaps related?) observation: On my Failed screens, I often notice one (or more) shuttle crew members missing from the displayed line-up. I wonder if there is any significance/relation to the failure?
I have another (perhaps related?) observation: On my Failed screens, I often notice one (or more) shuttle crew members missing from the displayed line-up. I wonder if there is any significance/relation to the failure?
Are you sure they're yours? The shared crew from your squad leader never shows up on the aftermath screen.
I assume that the boosts are added to the character's value and then the shuttle multiplier is calculated. Therefore, any boosts applied to the second AND skills would be hit with the .25 multiplier. If you applied the boost to the 2nd AND skill of 3 slots, you would effectively only get 75% of the boost's value. Based on this assumption I have been only looking at the 1st AND skill when I am choosing a skill to boost.
Here's a question, how does this affect boosts? Like in your example shuttle above, there's three Com slots so using a Com boost will list the highest predicted success percentage. But they're all second-and slots, so are they only counting for 25% of each, and so the boost helps minimally? Better-off with a Dip boost?
I assume that the boosts are added to the character's value and then the shuttle multiplier is calculated. Therefore, any boosts applied to the second AND skills would be hit with the .25 multiplier. If you applied the boost to the 2nd AND skill of 3 slots, you would effectively only get 75% of the boost's value. Based on this assumption I have been only looking at the 1st AND skill when I am choosing a skill to boost.
Here's a question, how does this affect boosts? Like in your example shuttle above, there's three Com slots so using a Com boost will list the highest predicted success percentage. But they're all second-and slots, so are they only counting for 25% of each, and so the boost helps minimally? Better-off with a Dip boost?
My experience is that the formula is ( (1st + 0.25* 2nd) +. Boost) * multiple
There is a chance that I just missed something, but it certainly appears that the bonus is getting added to the score the same regardless of if it is the 1st or 2nd boost.
@Shan: Is there any update on this? It's been over 2 weeks now.
Or should a similar experiment be done with the AND slots of this Galaxy event?
I second this. I know that Shan will report something when she has something to share. I also get that they don’t want to make a statement that is not 100% accurate since people will jump down their throats if they say something then have to retract it. That said, given how hugely significant this is to competitive play, it doesn’t appear to be much of a priority for their quality team.
@Shan: Is there any update on this? It's been over 2 weeks now.
Or should a similar experiment be done with the AND slots of this Galaxy event?
I second this. I know that Shan will report something when she has something to share. I also get that they don’t want to make a statement that is not 100% accurate since people will jump down their throats if they say something then have to retract it. That said, given how hugely significant this is to competitive play, it doesn’t appear to be much of a priority for their quality team.
How about a "We are looking into this" acknowledgement that this merits at least an investigation on their part?
That doesn't give anything away other than hey, we get that we need to look into this and see what's going on.
@Shan: Is there any update on this? It's been over 2 weeks now.
Or should a similar experiment be done with the AND slots of this Galaxy event?
I second this. I know that Shan will report something when she has something to share. I also get that they don’t want to make a statement that is not 100% accurate since people will jump down their throats if they say something then have to retract it. That said, given how hugely significant this is to competitive play, it doesn’t appear to be much of a priority for their quality team.
How about a "We are looking into this" acknowledgement that this merits at least an investigation on their part?
That doesn't give anything away other than hey, we get that we need to look into this and see what's going on.
@Shan: Is there any update on this? It's been over 2 weeks now.
Or should a similar experiment be done with the AND slots of this Galaxy event?
I second this. I know that Shan will report something when she has something to share. I also get that they don’t want to make a statement that is not 100% accurate since people will jump down their throats if they say something then have to retract it. That said, given how hugely significant this is to competitive play, it doesn’t appear to be much of a priority for their quality team.
How about a "We are looking into this" acknowledgement that this merits at least an investigation on their part?
That doesn't give anything away other than hey, we get that we need to look into this and see what's going on.
I am lost in this conversation mostly because I have no idea what you mean by AND slots.... can someone break this down for us guys who aren't programmers and statistics majors (use small words :P)
When they say AND slot, they mean a shuttle mission that says something like DIP AND SEC. So when you select your crew, you prefer someone who has both of those skills.
"If it wasn't for autocorrect, we wouldn't have Tuvok on a Giraffe."
@Shan: Is there any update on this? It's been over 2 weeks now.
Or should a similar experiment be done with the AND slots of this Galaxy event?
I second this. I know that Shan will report something when she has something to share. I also get that they don’t want to make a statement that is not 100% accurate since people will jump down their throats if they say something then have to retract it. That said, given how hugely significant this is to competitive play, it doesn’t appear to be much of a priority for their quality team.
How about a "We are looking into this" acknowledgement that this merits at least an investigation on their part?
That doesn't give anything away other than hey, we get that we need to look into this and see what's going on.
I have seen this thread and I created a bug report linking to it.
No, that's not what we (I) want. A bug report just means there's a ticket in the system. We (I) want to know that this urgent-priority item is being actively investigated, not just waiting for its turn in the queue to come up.
Actually if it takes a long time to investigate/fix, they could just remove all AND shuttles from upcoming events until its resolved.
Not a bad solution either! That said, it shouldn’t be hard to investigate, either it is being calculated correctly or it isn’t, there needs to be a value that can be audited. This is believed to be a bug that occurs 100% of the time. So if it is a real occurrence, then at least communicate how the And shuttles are actually being calculated so people know, even if a fix may take a while.
Actually if it takes a long time to investigate/fix, they could just remove all AND shuttles from upcoming events until its resolved.
Not a bad solution either! That said, it shouldn’t be hard to investigate, either it is being calculated correctly or it isn’t, there needs to be a value that can be audited. This is believed to be a bug that occurs 100% of the time. So if it is a real occurrence, then at least communicate how the And shuttles are actually being calculated so people know, even if a fix may take a while.
I'd have a problem with them just communicating it, as they'd probably do so here... and not all the userbase comes here. Even putting a game email out they'd put a non-clickable link to the forums that some players won't bother to type in as they won't understand the relevance or urgency.
Either fix it quick or pull those shuttles feels like the only equitable actions to take to me. And the latter is the least problematic from a QC standpoint.
@Shan: Is there any update on this? It's been over 2 weeks now.
Or should a similar experiment be done with the AND slots of this Galaxy event?
I second this. I know that Shan will report something when she has something to share. I also get that they don’t want to make a statement that is not 100% accurate since people will jump down their throats if they say something then have to retract it. That said, given how hugely significant this is to competitive play, it doesn’t appear to be much of a priority for their quality team.
How about a "We are looking into this" acknowledgement that this merits at least an investigation on their part?
That doesn't give anything away other than hey, we get that we need to look into this and see what's going on.
I have seen this thread and I created a bug report linking to it.
No, that's not what we (I) want. A bug report just means there's a ticket in the system. We (I) want to know that this urgent-priority item is being actively investigated, not just waiting for its turn in the queue to come up.
Yes, I think we all want that, but we aren't going to hear about anything until their investigation is done.
Pallidyne was asking if a lower threshold had been met (that they at least respond in the forums that it was being investigated). That is why I replied with that information and where he could find it.
So I'm guessing the odds that this was stealth fixed with the 5.0 update are pretty much nil, @Shan ? I think it's pretty relevant considering we have another faction event (well, it's a hybrid, but still) coming up in a couple days. I'd say this should be red alert priority 1 with an immediate halt to all faction events until it's been fixed. I've ceased all serious attempts at faction events until it is resolved and I can't imagine I'm alone in this. As it stands, that means I don't seriously participate in any event anymore because galaxy events are a tedious tap-fest that nobody has time for, faction events are bugged, and expedition events don't exist. ishouldstopmakingupeventtypes
I have another (perhaps related?) observation: On my Failed screens, I often notice one (or more) shuttle crew members missing from the displayed line-up. I wonder if there is any significance/relation to the failure?
Are you sure they're yours? The shared crew from your squad leader never shows up on the aftermath screen.
I have this happen on normal shuttles even when events aren't happening. It's definitely a thing and actually a good idea to keep an eye on it as a possible factor.
@Shan: Is there any update on this? It's been over 2 weeks now.
Or should a similar experiment be done with the AND slots of this Galaxy event?
My thoughts on this is that the bug makes DB more money than fixing it. Fixing it requires resources and hiring talent.
Leaving it broken is not only free, encourages addicted players to spend more money because thier 94% shuttle just failed again.
I'm sorry but what incentive does DB have to fix this? Why would they spend money fixing thier game when they can just tell players it's statistically possible to fail, just spend some dilithium to boost that next shuttle and buy your rewards.
Does DB have integrity? If they did the right thing when no one is watching I'd say yes, but let's see if they even do the right thing when they are caught red handed.
Comments
No words ... They should have sent a poet ...
The problem is DB don't understand that (A and
That is a very good explanation .... now that I get it, I can explain it to the people in our fleet who are struggling with lots of failed shuttles at 99/98 percent
I'm pretty certain i understand this but can i just get clarification for one thing, See screenshot.
It doesn't matter that sarek has the first skill not being listed in the and statement he is still the best choice for the 2nd slot even though science is first in his listing because its not mentioned in the 2nd slot it doesn't matter correct ?
Using Nagus Rom you see CMD listed as his first skill but he is a diplomacy primary guy:
I haven't had unusual fails with him and on the return screen, it shows diplomacy as his main skill:
So obviously the display could be wrong but I'm closer to the shown percentage now by focusing on the first AND skill. Not the characters first skill.
Now if we can only figure out if there is significance to them flipping seats mid flight...
Here's a question, how does this affect boosts? Like in your example shuttle above, there's three Com slots so using a Com boost will list the highest predicted success percentage. But they're all second-and slots, so are they only counting for 25% of each, and so the boost helps minimally? Better-off with a Dip boost?
CMD total 1825*.25=456
Or
DIP total = 2042
So diplomacy is higher by a lot. That display bug has been known since the start. Using niners rom
Rom doesn't have science so I may think it's a high percentage but that would fail a ton
I assume that the boosts are added to the character's value and then the shuttle multiplier is calculated. Therefore, any boosts applied to the second AND skills would be hit with the .25 multiplier. If you applied the boost to the 2nd AND skill of 3 slots, you would effectively only get 75% of the boost's value. Based on this assumption I have been only looking at the 1st AND skill when I am choosing a skill to boost.
Are you sure they're yours? The shared crew from your squad leader never shows up on the aftermath screen.
Edit: Reply moved to top since DB forum software doesn't work properly.
Or should a similar experiment be done with the AND slots of this Galaxy event?
My experience is that the formula is ( (1st + 0.25* 2nd) +. Boost) * multiple
There is a chance that I just missed something, but it certainly appears that the bonus is getting added to the score the same regardless of if it is the 1st or 2nd boost.
I second this. I know that Shan will report something when she has something to share. I also get that they don’t want to make a statement that is not 100% accurate since people will jump down their throats if they say something then have to retract it. That said, given how hugely significant this is to competitive play, it doesn’t appear to be much of a priority for their quality team.
How about a "We are looking into this" acknowledgement that this merits at least an investigation on their part?
That doesn't give anything away other than hey, we get that we need to look into this and see what's going on.
You mean like:
https://forum.disruptorbeam.com/stt/discussion/5050/experiment-findings-is-the-and-function-bugged-in-events/p1
Good catch. I missed that earlier.
I apologize.
When they say AND slot, they mean a shuttle mission that says something like DIP AND SEC. So when you select your crew, you prefer someone who has both of those skills.
No, that's not what we (I) want. A bug report just means there's a ticket in the system. We (I) want to know that this urgent-priority item is being actively investigated, not just waiting for its turn in the queue to come up.
Not a bad solution either! That said, it shouldn’t be hard to investigate, either it is being calculated correctly or it isn’t, there needs to be a value that can be audited. This is believed to be a bug that occurs 100% of the time. So if it is a real occurrence, then at least communicate how the And shuttles are actually being calculated so people know, even if a fix may take a while.
I'd have a problem with them just communicating it, as they'd probably do so here... and not all the userbase comes here. Even putting a game email out they'd put a non-clickable link to the forums that some players won't bother to type in as they won't understand the relevance or urgency.
Either fix it quick or pull those shuttles feels like the only equitable actions to take to me. And the latter is the least problematic from a QC standpoint.
Yes, I think we all want that, but we aren't going to hear about anything until their investigation is done.
Pallidyne was asking if a lower threshold had been met (that they at least respond in the forums that it was being investigated). That is why I replied with that information and where he could find it.
I have this happen on normal shuttles even when events aren't happening. It's definitely a thing and actually a good idea to keep an eye on it as a possible factor.
My thoughts on this is that the bug makes DB more money than fixing it. Fixing it requires resources and hiring talent.
Leaving it broken is not only free, encourages addicted players to spend more money because thier 94% shuttle just failed again.
I'm sorry but what incentive does DB have to fix this? Why would they spend money fixing thier game when they can just tell players it's statistically possible to fail, just spend some dilithium to boost that next shuttle and buy your rewards.
Does DB have integrity? If they did the right thing when no one is watching I'd say yes, but let's see if they even do the right thing when they are caught red handed.
Only way to win, is not to play.