"Homefront"/"Paradise Lost" only works because it's Captain Sisko who buys into Admiral Leyton's doctrine. Think back to TNG's "The Drumhead", when Worf sided with Admiral Satie but Captain Picard resisted and rejected suspicion and paranoia throughout the episode. We might have given some thought to what Worf and Satie were saying, but it was a given that the moral of the story would be about valuing civil rights over security.
Because this time it's our leader, though, we don't have that certainty. It wasn't out of character or inconsistent with anything else in DS9, so there was no foregone conclusion about how it would play out.
I also do think it's important that we the viewer knew more than the characters. We weren't just meant to follow our leader, the Captain; we were also meant to think back to "The Adversary", "Improbable Cause", and "The Die Is Cast", and to view Joseph Sisko as naive. I also think it's important that Joseph was Ben's father. There's a temptation for us to think our parents don't understand things especially clearly, but we're also used to them being authority figures. It's a strange thing to displace a parent as an authority figure.
All in all, it's a brilliant set-up, and for my money, the payoff is even more brilliant.
I love Sisko, but agreed, he actually loses his cool very easily and things escalate very quickly when he does. Two extremely prominent examples of this are how Sisko reacted to Eddington’s betrayal - being willing to seemingly go to galaxy’s end just to catch the guy cause he felt so wronged by him and took Eddington’s betrayal very personally, and how Sisko reacted to his own father when it was thought that a changeling spy might be on Earth - willing to almost throw his own father to the dogs due to his unyielding paranoia. There are numerous other examples though, but these two might be the top two unhinged Sisko moments.
Wow that's not how I interpreted that scene with Sisko's father at all. I found his father so irritating! Sisko calmly demonstrated himself taking the test. I don't remember him being very unhinged. The most important person in Starfleet at a very dangerous time, has to be called to his father's restaurant because he's being irrational about a medical test being conducted on all Starfleet personnel and their families. You'd think his own father would be supportive of a decision his son made for the security of the planet.
When "Homefront" and "Paradise Lost" originally aired, I admit I found myself siding more with Leyton, Sisko, and Odo. But then came 9/11 and I actually lived through the zeitgeist of a paranoid society, and now Joseph Sisko is my hero. It's important that someone speak up and push back against paranoia-driven security measures, and I have a greater appreciation for how difficult it can be to be that person.
DS9 had a handful of stories that I think have aged especially well, simply because they were ahead of real life. That's one of them.
If I could “awesome” this twice, I would. We, the viewers, understand the threat the Changelings pose and are set up to wonder why Joseph is being so obstinate, rather than focus on the Gestapo-like tactics that are being forced on people in the name of “security.” We see it today, at least here in the States, with the TSA continuing to fondle children and grannies at airports or politicians pushing universal background checks for firearms purchases in the name of “safety” when both of those things have been proven time and again to be completely ineffective at actually protecting people. The urge to “do something” overrides all other concerns, at the expense of basic human rights...which you would hope wouldn’t still be the case in a future near-utopia as the Federation is often claimed to be.
It's not too hard to imagine how threatening a "changeling" could be, who could look like anyone. I realize sometimes citizens don't understand how serious a threat is, but this type of enemy seems pretty easy to understand how incredibly dangerous and difficult to identify they would be, so I don't think it's a case where the tv series viewer understands the danger better.
I'd say it's somewhat different from security measures after 9/11 because there's no medical test we could conduct to determine if someone is a potential terrorist. All we can do is monitor people's communications (and maybe combinations of purchases of potentially dangerous goods when combined) and hope they're dumb enough to discuss their intentions or beliefs.
But part of the problem was exactly as Joseph said: the test wouldn't work. I'd thought it obvious from the first time it was mentioned, so I'm glad the writers brought it up, but any Changeling could simply hold some blood inside their body and let it out on cue. It was an ineffective, wasteful measure - perhaps more akin to suspecting all Muslims, maybe.
And the idea of invading everyone's privacy to monitor all communications and purchases... I suggest reading up on Edward Snowden, for example. And remember, privacy is important, even if you have nothing to hide.
I love Sisko, but agreed, he actually loses his cool very easily and things escalate very quickly when he does. Two extremely prominent examples of this are how Sisko reacted to Eddington’s betrayal - being willing to seemingly go to galaxy’s end just to catch the guy cause he felt so wronged by him and took Eddington’s betrayal very personally, and how Sisko reacted to his own father when it was thought that a changeling spy might be on Earth - willing to almost throw his own father to the dogs due to his unyielding paranoia. There are numerous other examples though, but these two might be the top two unhinged Sisko moments.
Wow that's not how I interpreted that scene with Sisko's father at all. I found his father so irritating! Sisko calmly demonstrated himself taking the test. I don't remember him being very unhinged. The most important person in Starfleet at a very dangerous time, has to be called to his father's restaurant because he's being irrational about a medical test being conducted on all Starfleet personnel and their families. You'd think his own father would be supportive of a decision his son made for the security of the planet.
When "Homefront" and "Paradise Lost" originally aired, I admit I found myself siding more with Leyton, Sisko, and Odo. But then came 9/11 and I actually lived through the zeitgeist of a paranoid society, and now Joseph Sisko is my hero. It's important that someone speak up and push back against paranoia-driven security measures, and I have a greater appreciation for how difficult it can be to be that person.
DS9 had a handful of stories that I think have aged especially well, simply because they were ahead of real life. That's one of them.
If I could “awesome” this twice, I would. We, the viewers, understand the threat the Changelings pose and are set up to wonder why Joseph is being so obstinate, rather than focus on the Gestapo-like tactics that are being forced on people in the name of “security.” We see it today, at least here in the States, with the TSA continuing to fondle children and grannies at airports or politicians pushing universal background checks for firearms purchases in the name of “safety” when both of those things have been proven time and again to be completely ineffective at actually protecting people. The urge to “do something” overrides all other concerns, at the expense of basic human rights...which you would hope wouldn’t still be the case in a future near-utopia as the Federation is often claimed to be.
Difficult issues without simple solutions. Balancing security versus freedom. How much should people be watched? Who watches the watchers? We do need to find balance and be willing to change tactics when needed or appropriate. Have conscientious monitoring and security without racial profiling and cruelty. I would remind you though that we do not hear of the many times security, background checks and law enforcement has succeeded in protecting people, we mostly only hear of the few times it has not.
I love Sisko, but agreed, he actually loses his cool very easily and things escalate very quickly when he does. Two extremely prominent examples of this are how Sisko reacted to Eddington’s betrayal - being willing to seemingly go to galaxy’s end just to catch the guy cause he felt so wronged by him and took Eddington’s betrayal very personally, and how Sisko reacted to his own father when it was thought that a changeling spy might be on Earth - willing to almost throw his own father to the dogs due to his unyielding paranoia. There are numerous other examples though, but these two might be the top two unhinged Sisko moments.
Wow that's not how I interpreted that scene with Sisko's father at all. I found his father so irritating! Sisko calmly demonstrated himself taking the test. I don't remember him being very unhinged. The most important person in Starfleet at a very dangerous time, has to be called to his father's restaurant because he's being irrational about a medical test being conducted on all Starfleet personnel and their families. You'd think his own father would be supportive of a decision his son made for the security of the planet.
When "Homefront" and "Paradise Lost" originally aired, I admit I found myself siding more with Leyton, Sisko, and Odo. But then came 9/11 and I actually lived through the zeitgeist of a paranoid society, and now Joseph Sisko is my hero. It's important that someone speak up and push back against paranoia-driven security measures, and I have a greater appreciation for how difficult it can be to be that person.
DS9 had a handful of stories that I think have aged especially well, simply because they were ahead of real life. That's one of them.
If I could “awesome” this twice, I would. We, the viewers, understand the threat the Changelings pose and are set up to wonder why Joseph is being so obstinate, rather than focus on the Gestapo-like tactics that are being forced on people in the name of “security.” We see it today, at least here in the States, with the TSA continuing to fondle children and grannies at airports or politicians pushing universal background checks for firearms purchases in the name of “safety” when both of those things have been proven time and again to be completely ineffective at actually protecting people. The urge to “do something” overrides all other concerns, at the expense of basic human rights...which you would hope wouldn’t still be the case in a future near-utopia as the Federation is often claimed to be.
Difficult issues without simple solutions. Balancing security versus freedom. How much should people be watched? Who watches the watchers? We do need to find balance and be willing to change tactics when needed or appropriate. Have conscientious monitoring and security without racial profiling and cruelty. I would remind you though that we do not hear of the many times security, background checks and law enforcement has succeeded in protecting people, we mostly only hear of the few times it has not.
That’s just the thing: we don’t hear about the times when overbearing security works, because it doesn’t. Internal and independent audits of the TSA have found that numerous weapons have gone right through security checkpoints, which is the sole thing they exist to check for. And even they were stopping attacks left and right, the obscene violations of privacy and outright sexual assaults perpetrated by TSA agents are not worth it.
Joseph Sisko got treated like a crackpot because he thought it wasn’t right to treat innocent people like enemy agents, by people trying to make your exact same argument. There are many ideals represented by the Federation and Starfleet that are worth supporting but a ubiquitous police state “for your safety” isn’t one of them.
I think the fact that the story from that two-parter 22 years ago is still relevant speaks to the thoughtfulness that went into DS9. Those episodes could be shown to someone for their first ever viewing right now and they work. If anything, I kind of wonder if having been produced five years before 9/11 doesn't make them more effective in some respects, since they weren't addressing any specific allegory in the audience's consciousness, whereas every such story since has been obviously about American society in these past 17 years.
I love Sisko, but agreed, he actually loses his cool very easily and things escalate very quickly when he does. Two extremely prominent examples of this are how Sisko reacted to Eddington’s betrayal - being willing to seemingly go to galaxy’s end just to catch the guy cause he felt so wronged by him and took Eddington’s betrayal very personally, and how Sisko reacted to his own father when it was thought that a changeling spy might be on Earth - willing to almost throw his own father to the dogs due to his unyielding paranoia. There are numerous other examples though, but these two might be the top two unhinged Sisko moments.
Wow that's not how I interpreted that scene with Sisko's father at all. I found his father so irritating! Sisko calmly demonstrated himself taking the test. I don't remember him being very unhinged. The most important person in Starfleet at a very dangerous time, has to be called to his father's restaurant because he's being irrational about a medical test being conducted on all Starfleet personnel and their families. You'd think his own father would be supportive of a decision his son made for the security of the planet.
When "Homefront" and "Paradise Lost" originally aired, I admit I found myself siding more with Leyton, Sisko, and Odo. But then came 9/11 and I actually lived through the zeitgeist of a paranoid society, and now Joseph Sisko is my hero. It's important that someone speak up and push back against paranoia-driven security measures, and I have a greater appreciation for how difficult it can be to be that person.
DS9 had a handful of stories that I think have aged especially well, simply because they were ahead of real life. That's one of them.
If I could “awesome” this twice, I would. We, the viewers, understand the threat the Changelings pose and are set up to wonder why Joseph is being so obstinate, rather than focus on the Gestapo-like tactics that are being forced on people in the name of “security.” We see it today, at least here in the States, with the TSA continuing to fondle children and grannies at airports or politicians pushing universal background checks for firearms purchases in the name of “safety” when both of those things have been proven time and again to be completely ineffective at actually protecting people. The urge to “do something” overrides all other concerns, at the expense of basic human rights...which you would hope wouldn’t still be the case in a future near-utopia as the Federation is often claimed to be.
Difficult issues without simple solutions. Balancing security versus freedom. How much should people be watched? Who watches the watchers? We do need to find balance and be willing to change tactics when needed or appropriate. Have conscientious monitoring and security without racial profiling and cruelty. I would remind you though that we do not hear of the many times security, background checks and law enforcement has succeeded in protecting people, we mostly only hear of the few times it has not.
That’s just the thing: we don’t hear about the times when overbearing security works, because it doesn’t. Internal and independent audits of the TSA have found that numerous weapons have gone right through security checkpoints, which is the sole thing they exist to check for. And even they were stopping attacks left and right, the obscene violations of privacy and outright sexual assaults perpetrated by TSA agents are not worth it.
Joseph Sisko got treated like a crackpot because he thought it wasn’t right to treat innocent people like enemy agents, by people trying to make your exact same argument. There are many ideals represented by the Federation and Starfleet that are worth supporting but a ubiquitous police state “for your safety” isn’t one of them.
I was not advocating for a police state. I was simply pointing out that we hear much more about the failures of security measures than we do successes. If bad people with weapons are stopped during routine security checks a hundred times and they are arrested and their weapons confiscated these arrests will very likely not make the news. But if one bad person with a weapon is not stopped by a security measure and hurts many people it will make the news. It is something to keep in mind when determining whether a security system works or not. I have seen those studies too where TSA agents miss weapons. TSA do find some weapons but not all. I believe those studies had a small sample size though so hard to extrapolate for all of TSA. TSA is also meant to be a deterrent. They are seen checking for illegal items and as such people are less likely to try to bring illegal items. I do definitely agree though that the way TSA does things needs to be changed. Metal detectors, and x-ray for luggage should suffice. The groping, manhandling, and racial profiling is not beneficial. My main objection to your argument before was when you said background checks for firearms do not work. The background check system has been made intentionally weak by NRA paid politicians and then those same politicians who have sabotaged the system point to the failures caused by their sabotage as a reason why the background check system should not be expanded or should be done away with entirely. The background check system has been intentionally underfunded, not been streamlined, and sending information to the system is often voluntary with no punishment for those that do not report information. I do not advocate for or propose a police state but I also do not propose we do nothing. Like with nearly everything we need a balance. Too much or too little of most things is bad. These are complicated issues and it is good for star trek to discuss them in The Next Generation, Deep Space Nine, and Into Darkness.
Leyton saw an opportunity to grab military power and to become a dictator. His excuse was how current president is too weak, how Federation is too weak and how he will protect the Federation.
- in the last few years, many presidents or prime ministers in the world were elected with similar stories and I am not even talking nor thinking about Trump right now
Starfleet set a bomb in the conference in Antwerpen, I don't remember if they knew a shapeshifter will be there or it was a fake recording.
- false flag operations
Starfleet set up some devices in the wormhole which kept opening the wormhole, everyone thought how Dominion is sending cloaked ships
Massive paranoia about 2 changelings and the Dominion but they are completely innocent at the time, one of them has even reach out to Sisko.
Not only that blood taste was set up so that changeling could pass it (Martok) it was possible to set up it in a way that anyone could be wrongly accused of being a changeling.
So in an ironic twist, Leyton set up a test which showed how Benjamin Sisko was a changeling and then he imprisoned him.
It's funny how everyone remembers that Joseph Sisko was stubborn with that test but they don't remember that Leyton falsified a later blood test and that he has put Benjamin Sisko in prison.
if someone is willing to pay lots of cash to win an event, it might actually be a good idea to discourage other people from doing the same right at the beginning of the event. Maybe he will save a month's salary before the event is over if other people don't try to match it.
Anyone else having an issue with the 2nd part of this event? My supply mission rewards are not being counted. I'm getting a Triage kit almost every build, but it's not adding them up at the left. Stuck at 1/3. Restarted the game and the phone and still having the same problem. I'm not doing any more builds for now because I'm wasting them. Notified support.
Had a problem during the first part of the event too, where I wasn't able to assign shuttle crew. But after a couple restarts and a hour or so wait period, it finally started working.
I love Sisko, but agreed, he actually loses his cool very easily and things escalate very quickly when he does. Two extremely prominent examples of this are how Sisko reacted to Eddington’s betrayal - being willing to seemingly go to galaxy’s end just to catch the guy cause he felt so wronged by him and took Eddington’s betrayal very personally, and how Sisko reacted to his own father when it was thought that a changeling spy might be on Earth - willing to almost throw his own father to the dogs due to his unyielding paranoia. There are numerous other examples though, but these two might be the top two unhinged Sisko moments.
Wow that's not how I interpreted that scene with Sisko's father at all. I found his father so irritating! Sisko calmly demonstrated himself taking the test. I don't remember him being very unhinged. The most important person in Starfleet at a very dangerous time, has to be called to his father's restaurant because he's being irrational about a medical test being conducted on all Starfleet personnel and their families. You'd think his own father would be supportive of a decision his son made for the security of the planet.
When "Homefront" and "Paradise Lost" originally aired, I admit I found myself siding more with Leyton, Sisko, and Odo. But then came 9/11 and I actually lived through the zeitgeist of a paranoid society, and now Joseph Sisko is my hero. It's important that someone speak up and push back against paranoia-driven security measures, and I have a greater appreciation for how difficult it can be to be that person.
DS9 had a handful of stories that I think have aged especially well, simply because they were ahead of real life. That's one of them.
If I could “awesome” this twice, I would. We, the viewers, understand the threat the Changelings pose and are set up to wonder why Joseph is being so obstinate, rather than focus on the Gestapo-like tactics that are being forced on people in the name of “security.” We see it today, at least here in the States, with the TSA continuing to fondle children and grannies at airports or politicians pushing universal background checks for firearms purchases in the name of “safety” when both of those things have been proven time and again to be completely ineffective at actually protecting people. The urge to “do something” overrides all other concerns, at the expense of basic human rights...which you would hope wouldn’t still be the case in a future near-utopia as the Federation is often claimed to be.
Difficult issues without simple solutions. Balancing security versus freedom. How much should people be watched? Who watches the watchers? We do need to find balance and be willing to change tactics when needed or appropriate. Have conscientious monitoring and security without racial profiling and cruelty. I would remind you though that we do not hear of the many times security, background checks and law enforcement has succeeded in protecting people, we mostly only hear of the few times it has not.
That’s just the thing: we don’t hear about the times when overbearing security works, because it doesn’t. Internal and independent audits of the TSA have found that numerous weapons have gone right through security checkpoints, which is the sole thing they exist to check for. And even they were stopping attacks left and right, the obscene violations of privacy and outright sexual assaults perpetrated by TSA agents are not worth it.
Joseph Sisko got treated like a crackpot because he thought it wasn’t right to treat innocent people like enemy agents, by people trying to make your exact same argument. There are many ideals represented by the Federation and Starfleet that are worth supporting but a ubiquitous police state “for your safety” isn’t one of them.
I find it hard to believe you are honestly believing it is not worth preventing "attacks left and right" (implying preventing multiple DEATHs), because of a VERY small number of legitimate, prosecuted and convicted cases of sexual assaults by TSA agents. The news now jumps on stories as fast as possible, so you hear about every accusation before there's any corroboration or investigation yet. Because of emotional reaction to the horrible possibility if such a claim being legitimate, there are many cases of people being presumed guilty until proven innocent in the public eye.
I don't care about my privacy if it ever saved one person's life. What benefit is privacy to my life? I have seen nothing but benefits to relinquishing my information to google, amazon, etc. I have faith that such organizations are made up of humans, and the statistical majority of humans have morality and honest intentions.
We're also assuming this Star Trek blood test could not be improved on, where collected blood could later be analyzed for exposure to changeling tissue.
It's funny how everyone remembers that Joseph Sisko was stubborn with that test but they don't remember that Leyton falsified a later blood test and that he has put Benjamin Sisko in prison.
Can't speak for anyone else, but I remember everything Leyton did. We just weren't talking about him.
What benefit is privacy to my life? I have seen nothing but benefits to relinquishing my information to google, amazon, etc. I have faith that such organizations are made up of humans, and the statistical majority of humans have morality and honest intentions.
Hmmmm, I'm not convinced you have nothing to hide. Would you mind sharing your email address and password here for me to have a look back through your emails? I'm sure I could find a few of interest to copy-paste here. Unless, that is, you want to keep your password and your personal emails private...?
In which case, never mind. Forget it. I'll just settle for photos of you in what you wear to bed. Front and back, and make sure we can see your face! Put your real name along with them, too, so I can know who I'm printing! You didn't want any of that kept private, right?
Privacy is about more than just choosing to give Google and Amazon your information (I choose to share lots of my data with them, too). Losing your privacy erodes at who you are, who you have the freedom to be. The funny thing is, I was right where you are when I was in my early twenties. I thought privacy was hugely overrated and that because I had nothing to hide, I had nothing to lose if I gave up my right to privacy.
What benefit is privacy to my life? I have seen nothing but benefits to relinquishing my information to google, amazon, etc. I have faith that such organizations are made up of humans, and the statistical majority of humans have morality and honest intentions.
Hmmmm, I'm not convinced you have nothing to hide. Would you mind sharing your email address and password here for me to have a look back through your emails? I'm sure I could find a few of interest to copy-paste here. Unless, that is, you want to keep your password and your personal emails private...?
In which case, never mind. Forget it. I'll just settle for photos of you in what you wear to bed. Front and back, and make sure we can see your face! Put your real name along with them, too, so I can know who I'm printing! You didn't want any of that kept private, right?
Privacy is about more than just choosing to give Google and Amazon your information (I choose to share lots of my data with them, too). Losing your privacy erodes at who you are, who you have the freedom to be. The funny thing is, I was right where you are when I was in my early twenties. I thought privacy was hugely overrated and that because I had nothing to hide, I had nothing to lose if I gave up my right to privacy.
Oh, and please @PenguinJim in your comment with your email address and password, so I don't miss it!
Amen. I’ll also point out that volunteering information to Facebook/Google and other businesses is a vastly different creature than the government. Facebook, Google, and those who support those two with ad revenues want to sell you things. That’s all - the more appropriate the ads are, the more likely you are going to buy something. There are plenty out there who may choose to be unscrupulous in their advertising practices or are knowingly selling an inferior or potentially unsafe product but everyone outside of perhaps the tobacco industry recognizes that we, their customers, need to be alive, be happy, and be willing to come back again in the future for repeat business.
This is not the case for the government. There is no profit motive that drives the government to want to keep you coming back willingly because you have no choice but to deal with them. For example, if you have a bad experience at a restaurant you don’t ever have to go back but if you want to fly almost anywhere you will have to deal with the TSA in at least one of the airports. Speaking of them again...I bet you would feel a little differently on the whole Be more mindful on what you post, thanks. ˜Shan thing if, instead of strangers in a news story, it was your own mother/sister/significant other/child that suffered such treatment. I would hope so, at least.
Even if we set aside TSA groping for a moment, there are still some chilling consequences of unfettered government intrusion. The Trek episode featured a test that was basically impossible to get a false positive by natural means - no Federation citizen or foreign visitor to a Federation world or outpost is likely to have their blood turn into Changeling goo by happenstance or accident. However, I am willing to bet that a group like Section 31 could fake a positive test for someone they would want to...remove from society. Such is the case in the real world when cops plant drugs or weapons on people or their property in order to secure an arrest and, ultimately, a conviction. It doesn’t matter who they put in prison as long as someone goes.
While the Changeling test is quite simple and relatively impossible to get an unintentional false positive, the question of false negatives is an incredibly important one to the story. Changelings’ ability to simply store a little blood and release it makes the entire test invalid, and therefore an unnecessary intrusion. When the efficacy of the test is questionable, there is no reason to continue using it...all the privacy and liberty given up for the appearance of safety is for nothing.
Speaking of them again...I bet you would feel a little differently on the whole Be more mindful on what you post, thanks. ˜Shan thing if, instead of strangers in a news story, it was your own mother/sister/significant other/child that suffered such treatment.
Wow. Way to escalate, misrepresent and get the thread shut down.
Sisko: What are you gonna learn in the next few months that you haven't already learned in the last 300 years?
Ezri Dax: Oh, how to keep from breaking into tears for no reason...
There's a point about privacy that I seldom hear acknowledged, and that's that communication goes in more than one direction. I, for instance, am a fairly open book. I don't bother with a pseudonym, and I share (or perhaps overshare!) quite a lot about myself on my blog and Twitter.
Having said that, though, I also have several close, intimate relationships. (Not sexually, but in terms of sharing sensitive, personal matters.) The people who have taken me into their confidence should have their privacy protected and respected.
Since this is the sticky thread for this event I'd just like to take a moment to give kudos to the writers for this event, the names of the phase 2 assembly missions are great! I also very much appreciate the nudge, nudge say no more wink of the eye to the Tom Paris/Nicholas Locarno connection ^_- Stylistically, this event has been tremendous.
Speaking of them again...I bet you would feel a little differently on the whole “it’s okay to rape people to feel safer” thing if, instead of strangers in a news story, it was your own mother/sister/significant other/child that suffered such treatment.
Wow. Way to escalate, misrepresent and get the thread shut down.
I’m sorry for the hard truth that problems become more evident when they aren’t Somebody Else’s. Perhaps Shan will edit the comment and yell at me or simply ban me entirely like Banjo...
Speaking of them again...I bet you would feel a little differently on the whole “it’s okay to rape people to feel safer” thing if, instead of strangers in a news story, it was your own mother/sister/significant other/child that suffered such treatment.
Wow. Way to escalate, misrepresent and get the thread shut down.
I’m sorry for the hard truth that problems become more evident when they aren’t Somebody Else’s. Perhaps Shan will edit the comment and yell at me or simply ban me entirely like Banjo...
I did edit, I do not yell, and Banjo is not banned.
I love Sisko, but agreed, he actually loses his cool very easily and things escalate very quickly when he does. Two extremely prominent examples of this are how Sisko reacted to Eddington’s betrayal - being willing to seemingly go to galaxy’s end just to catch the guy cause he felt so wronged by him and took Eddington’s betrayal very personally, and how Sisko reacted to his own father when it was thought that a changeling spy might be on Earth - willing to almost throw his own father to the dogs due to his unyielding paranoia. There are numerous other examples though, but these two might be the top two unhinged Sisko moments.
Wow that's not how I interpreted that scene with Sisko's father at all. I found his father so irritating! Sisko calmly demonstrated himself taking the test. I don't remember him being very unhinged. The most important person in Starfleet at a very dangerous time, has to be called to his father's restaurant because he's being irrational about a medical test being conducted on all Starfleet personnel and their families. You'd think his own father would be supportive of a decision his son made for the security of the planet.
When "Homefront" and "Paradise Lost" originally aired, I admit I found myself siding more with Leyton, Sisko, and Odo. But then came 9/11 and I actually lived through the zeitgeist of a paranoid society, and now Joseph Sisko is my hero. It's important that someone speak up and push back against paranoia-driven security measures, and I have a greater appreciation for how difficult it can be to be that person.
DS9 had a handful of stories that I think have aged especially well, simply because they were ahead of real life. That's one of them.
If I could “awesome” this twice, I would. We, the viewers, understand the threat the Changelings pose and are set up to wonder why Joseph is being so obstinate, rather than focus on the Gestapo-like tactics that are being forced on people in the name of “security.” We see it today, at least here in the States, with the TSA continuing to fondle children and grannies at airports or politicians pushing universal background checks for firearms purchases in the name of “safety” when both of those things have been proven time and again to be completely ineffective at actually protecting people. The urge to “do something” overrides all other concerns, at the expense of basic human rights...which you would hope wouldn’t still be the case in a future near-utopia as the Federation is often claimed to be.
You can have security or freedom. You cannot have both at the same time.......
"The truth is like a lion; you don't have to defend it. Let it loose; it will defend itself."
"Homefront"/"Paradise Lost" only works because it's Captain Sisko who buys into Admiral Leyton's doctrine. Think back to TNG's "The Drumhead", when Worf sided with Admiral Satie but Captain Picard resisted and rejected suspicion and paranoia throughout the episode. We might have given some thought to what Worf and Satie were saying, but it was a given that the moral of the story would be about valuing civil rights over security.
Because this time it's our leader, though, we don't have that certainty. It wasn't out of character or inconsistent with anything else in DS9, so there was no foregone conclusion about how it would play out.
I also do think it's important that we the viewer knew more than the characters. We weren't just meant to follow our leader, the Captain; we were also meant to think back to "The Adversary", "Improbable Cause", and "The Die Is Cast", and to view Joseph Sisko as naive. I also think it's important that Joseph was Ben's father. There's a temptation for us to think our parents don't understand things especially clearly, but we're also used to them being authority figures. It's a strange thing to displace a parent as an authority figure.
All in all, it's a brilliant set-up, and for my money, the payoff is even more brilliant.
"Homefront"/"Paradise Lost" only works because it's Captain Sisko who buys into Admiral Leyton's doctrine. Think back to TNG's "The Drumhead", when Worf sided with Admiral Satie but Captain Picard resisted and rejected suspicion and paranoia throughout the episode. We might have given some thought to what Worf and Satie were saying, but it was a given that the moral of the story would be about valuing civil rights over security.
Because this time it's our leader, though, we don't have that certainty. It wasn't out of character or inconsistent with anything else in DS9, so there was no foregone conclusion about how it would play out.
I also do think it's important that we the viewer knew more than the characters. We weren't just meant to follow our leader, the Captain; we were also meant to think back to "The Adversary", "Improbable Cause", and "The Die Is Cast", and to view Joseph Sisko as naive. I also think it's important that Joseph was Ben's father. There's a temptation for us to think our parents don't understand things especially clearly, but we're also used to them being authority figures. It's a strange thing to displace a parent as an authority figure.
All in all, it's a brilliant set-up, and for my money, the payoff is even more brilliant.
Am I the only one who thinks of "The Drumhead" when I watch "Litmus" from te new "Battlestar Galactica"?
"The truth is like a lion; you don't have to defend it. Let it loose; it will defend itself."
Comments
Because this time it's our leader, though, we don't have that certainty. It wasn't out of character or inconsistent with anything else in DS9, so there was no foregone conclusion about how it would play out.
I also do think it's important that we the viewer knew more than the characters. We weren't just meant to follow our leader, the Captain; we were also meant to think back to "The Adversary", "Improbable Cause", and "The Die Is Cast", and to view Joseph Sisko as naive. I also think it's important that Joseph was Ben's father. There's a temptation for us to think our parents don't understand things especially clearly, but we're also used to them being authority figures. It's a strange thing to displace a parent as an authority figure.
All in all, it's a brilliant set-up, and for my money, the payoff is even more brilliant.
But part of the problem was exactly as Joseph said: the test wouldn't work. I'd thought it obvious from the first time it was mentioned, so I'm glad the writers brought it up, but any Changeling could simply hold some blood inside their body and let it out on cue. It was an ineffective, wasteful measure - perhaps more akin to suspecting all Muslims, maybe.
And the idea of invading everyone's privacy to monitor all communications and purchases... I suggest reading up on Edward Snowden, for example. And remember, privacy is important, even if you have nothing to hide.
That’s just the thing: we don’t hear about the times when overbearing security works, because it doesn’t. Internal and independent audits of the TSA have found that numerous weapons have gone right through security checkpoints, which is the sole thing they exist to check for. And even they were stopping attacks left and right, the obscene violations of privacy and outright sexual assaults perpetrated by TSA agents are not worth it.
Joseph Sisko got treated like a crackpot because he thought it wasn’t right to treat innocent people like enemy agents, by people trying to make your exact same argument. There are many ideals represented by the Federation and Starfleet that are worth supporting but a ubiquitous police state “for your safety” isn’t one of them.
Leyton saw an opportunity to grab military power and to become a dictator. His excuse was how current president is too weak, how Federation is too weak and how he will protect the Federation.
- in the last few years, many presidents or prime ministers in the world were elected with similar stories and I am not even talking nor thinking about Trump right now
Starfleet set a bomb in the conference in Antwerpen, I don't remember if they knew a shapeshifter will be there or it was a fake recording.
- false flag operations
Starfleet set up some devices in the wormhole which kept opening the wormhole, everyone thought how Dominion is sending cloaked ships
Massive paranoia about 2 changelings and the Dominion but they are completely innocent at the time, one of them has even reach out to Sisko.
Not only that blood taste was set up so that changeling could pass it (Martok) it was possible to set up it in a way that anyone could be wrongly accused of being a changeling.
So in an ironic twist, Leyton set up a test which showed how Benjamin Sisko was a changeling and then he imprisoned him.
It's funny how everyone remembers that Joseph Sisko was stubborn with that test but they don't remember that Leyton falsified a later blood test and that he has put Benjamin Sisko in prison.
Or
https://youtube.com/watch?v=6DGNZnfKYnU
Inconcievable.
Had a problem during the first part of the event too, where I wasn't able to assign shuttle crew. But after a couple restarts and a hour or so wait period, it finally started working.
Yeah, it just seems really buggy this time.
I find it hard to believe you are honestly believing it is not worth preventing "attacks left and right" (implying preventing multiple DEATHs), because of a VERY small number of legitimate, prosecuted and convicted cases of sexual assaults by TSA agents. The news now jumps on stories as fast as possible, so you hear about every accusation before there's any corroboration or investigation yet. Because of emotional reaction to the horrible possibility if such a claim being legitimate, there are many cases of people being presumed guilty until proven innocent in the public eye.
I don't care about my privacy if it ever saved one person's life. What benefit is privacy to my life? I have seen nothing but benefits to relinquishing my information to google, amazon, etc. I have faith that such organizations are made up of humans, and the statistical majority of humans have morality and honest intentions.
We're also assuming this Star Trek blood test could not be improved on, where collected blood could later be analyzed for exposure to changeling tissue.
Can't speak for anyone else, but I remember everything Leyton did. We just weren't talking about him.
Hmmmm, I'm not convinced you have nothing to hide. Would you mind sharing your email address and password here for me to have a look back through your emails? I'm sure I could find a few of interest to copy-paste here. Unless, that is, you want to keep your password and your personal emails private...?
In which case, never mind. Forget it. I'll just settle for photos of you in what you wear to bed. Front and back, and make sure we can see your face! Put your real name along with them, too, so I can know who I'm printing! You didn't want any of that kept private, right?
Privacy is about more than just choosing to give Google and Amazon your information (I choose to share lots of my data with them, too). Losing your privacy erodes at who you are, who you have the freedom to be. The funny thing is, I was right where you are when I was in my early twenties. I thought privacy was hugely overrated and that because I had nothing to hide, I had nothing to lose if I gave up my right to privacy.
This is pretty much just a lmfgtfy, but I think you'd benefit from reading up a little bit:
https://harvardmagazine.com/2017/01/the-watchers
https://teachprivacy.com/10-reasons-privacy-matters/
https://hackernoon.com/thanks-facebook-now-we-all-know-why-privacy-is-important-fccd630d73d1
Oh, and please @PenguinJim in your comment with your email address and password, so I don't miss it!
Amen. I’ll also point out that volunteering information to Facebook/Google and other businesses is a vastly different creature than the government. Facebook, Google, and those who support those two with ad revenues want to sell you things. That’s all - the more appropriate the ads are, the more likely you are going to buy something. There are plenty out there who may choose to be unscrupulous in their advertising practices or are knowingly selling an inferior or potentially unsafe product but everyone outside of perhaps the tobacco industry recognizes that we, their customers, need to be alive, be happy, and be willing to come back again in the future for repeat business.
This is not the case for the government. There is no profit motive that drives the government to want to keep you coming back willingly because you have no choice but to deal with them. For example, if you have a bad experience at a restaurant you don’t ever have to go back but if you want to fly almost anywhere you will have to deal with the TSA in at least one of the airports. Speaking of them again...I bet you would feel a little differently on the whole Be more mindful on what you post, thanks. ˜Shan thing if, instead of strangers in a news story, it was your own mother/sister/significant other/child that suffered such treatment. I would hope so, at least.
Even if we set aside TSA groping for a moment, there are still some chilling consequences of unfettered government intrusion. The Trek episode featured a test that was basically impossible to get a false positive by natural means - no Federation citizen or foreign visitor to a Federation world or outpost is likely to have their blood turn into Changeling goo by happenstance or accident. However, I am willing to bet that a group like Section 31 could fake a positive test for someone they would want to...remove from society. Such is the case in the real world when cops plant drugs or weapons on people or their property in order to secure an arrest and, ultimately, a conviction. It doesn’t matter who they put in prison as long as someone goes.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/massachusetts-lab-tech-arrested-for-alleged-improper-handling-of-drug-tests/
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/another-baltimore-police-body-cam-video-shows-officers-plant-drugs-n789396
This can also happen unintentionally due to poor lab practices or mistakes during production of lab supplies.
http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1888126,00.html
Let’s not even get (too far into) the lengths to which the government will go to find criminals, and make some if there aren’t any to be found.
https://reason.com/blog/2011/09/16/new-jersey-cop-attacked-woman
While the Changeling test is quite simple and relatively impossible to get an unintentional false positive, the question of false negatives is an incredibly important one to the story. Changelings’ ability to simply store a little blood and release it makes the entire test invalid, and therefore an unnecessary intrusion. When the efficacy of the test is questionable, there is no reason to continue using it...all the privacy and liberty given up for the appearance of safety is for nothing.
Wow. Way to escalate, misrepresent and get the thread shut down.
Ezri Dax: Oh, how to keep from breaking into tears for no reason...
Having said that, though, I also have several close, intimate relationships. (Not sexually, but in terms of sharing sensitive, personal matters.) The people who have taken me into their confidence should have their privacy protected and respected.
I’m sorry for the hard truth that problems become more evident when they aren’t Somebody Else’s. Perhaps Shan will edit the comment and yell at me or simply ban me entirely like Banjo...
I did edit, I do not yell, and Banjo is not banned.
This thread is to discuss the event, let's all remember that.
I wish that Wesley always got a super rare instead of an A. Frankly, despite what he tries, he sometimes disappoints me.
Cadet Wesley was great for me this event. I already had him immortalized though.
You can have security or freedom. You cannot have both at the same time.......
Am I the only one who compares
Am I the only one who thinks of "The Drumhead" when I watch "Litmus" from te new "Battlestar Galactica"?