They are not even trying to defend themselves, they are just ignoring us and hoping it blows over. I find that behaviour truly reprehensible.
The problem will not go away because the game is basically incomplete without Iampicard or a similar app.
Except the developer pulled it not DB. So blame the developer in this case.
DB precipitated all of this with their deletion of the support thread in the Ready Room last week without any explanation. This is directly tied to their unwillingness to engage honestly with their community.
They are not even trying to defend themselves, they are just ignoring us and hoping it blows over. I find that behaviour truly reprehensible.
The problem will not go away because the game is basically incomplete without Iampicard or a similar app.
I was a frequent user of the tool and loved having it, but let’s not overstate the matter. It was a tool of convenience, not necessity. Is it as easy to manage? No. Is it impossible? Absolutely not. I played the game just fine for most of its existence without it, and I have mostly adjusted right back to doing what I did before. Life will go on.
They are not even trying to defend themselves, they are just ignoring us and hoping it blows over. I find that behaviour truly reprehensible.
The problem will not go away because the game is basically incomplete without Iampicard or a similar app.
I was a frequent user of the tool and loved having it, but let’s not overstate the matter. It was a tool of convenience, not necessity. Is it as easy to manage? No. Is it impossible? Absolutely not. I played the game just fine for most of its existence without it, and I have mostly adjusted right back to doing what I did before. Life will go on.
LIfe will go on but in the end the minority crybabies won.
They are not even trying to defend themselves, they are just ignoring us and hoping it blows over. I find that behaviour truly reprehensible.
The problem will not go away because the game is basically incomplete without Iampicard or a similar app.
I was a frequent user of the tool and loved having it, but let’s not overstate the matter. It was a tool of convenience, not necessity. Is it as easy to manage? No. Is it impossible? Absolutely not. I played the game just fine for most of its existence without it, and I have mostly adjusted right back to doing what I did before. Life will go on.
The problem that needs to be addressed is for similar tools what are the guidelines? DB should engage with it’s 3rd party developer community or else it risks disappearing.
The game is simple at its core (it’s just an RNG engine), but there’s a lot going on that management tools help with because the app itself has deficiencies.
This is an opportunity for DB to show some leadership and honestly and directly engage us on the subject and set some guidelines. Instead they are sticking their heads in the sand and ignoring us.
Unfortunately no one else can do it for them, so the whole kit and kaboodle is threatened by their inaction. And the game and the community will be a lot poorer for it.
LIfe will go on but in the end the minority crybabies won.
And ironically, by driving some people back out of the Gauntlet, probably now have a slightly better advantage there. "Fair" is in the eye of the beholder and what things they choose to do or not do.
LIfe will go on but in the end the minority crybabies won.
And ironically, by driving some people back out of the Gauntlet, probably now have a slightly better advantage there. "Fair" is in the eye of the beholder and what things they choose to do or not do.
Good point, the only Gauntlet I've ever finished 1st in was before the tool was around
LIfe will go on but in the end the minority crybabies won.
And ironically, by driving some people back out of the Gauntlet, probably now have a slightly better advantage there. "Fair" is in the eye of the beholder and what things they choose to do or not do.
Good point, the only Gauntlet I've ever finished 1st in was before the tool was around
And I won my first Gauntlet I started since the tool is gone, only the second I’ve ever won. I think a lot of players forgot how to Gauntlet on their own.
LIfe will go on but in the end the minority crybabies won.
And ironically, by driving some people back out of the Gauntlet, probably now have a slightly better advantage there. "Fair" is in the eye of the beholder and what things they choose to do or not do.
Good point, the only Gauntlet I've ever finished 1st in was before the tool was around
And I won my first Gauntlet I started since the tool is gone, only the second I’ve ever won. I think a lot of players forgot how to Gauntlet on their own.
It's much more likely that they are not playing Gauntlet at all. And that very soon they won't be playing the game at all and won't be spending money supporting the game we all very fond of.
@Shan You had said the iampicard was currently under review. When can we expect an announcement on the results of that review so that we have an official stance on it?
I've never used this tool. In my opinion it gives significant advantage to each person who uses it. If it was up to me I would forbid using this tool with no hesitation.
DB have removed a thread which they themselves stickied, advertising Iampicard as a recommended tool.
But the endorsement for the tool still remains, until it is retracted. The tool (and others like it) have been under review for 3+ months now, but that isn’t a retraction, it is saying keep the status quo unless/until we tell you otherwise.
What happened after that, with the developer of Iampicard alledging he was doxxed and personally threatened, is on a small but vocal minority of players here. I’m inclined to believe his claims and I’m ashamed to be in the same community as people who would do this. But you could prove me wrong.
What doesn’t change is the ramifications of DB’s lack of interest in the matter. And if that’s how DB intend to treat any dedicated players who devote time, skill and effort to make the game more enjoyable, not just for their own gratification, but whole fleets and social groups, then it’s absolutely disgusting.
I encourage anyone reading this who may be responsible for any other tools (like spreadsheets, wiki, crew cost calculators, discord bots, farming tools and anything else out there), please consider the bigger picture and show support against DB’s lack of interest in the community work.
Protest by ceasing access to your STT aid/tools, closing your wallet and/or add I Am Picard to your username.
I've never used this tool. In my opinion it gives significant advantage to each person who uses it. If it was up to me I would forbid using this tool with no hesitation.
Another fake account made by the antipicard crybabies just to single post. This thread is ripe with them.
Can anyone produce a post here from someone that was specifically "against IaP and was whining and complaining about it"? All the posts i've read (or made) are one of two things:
1 - people crying about losing IaP. Threatening to leave, accusing people of attacking the app creator without evidence, name calling (i'll get called a pejorative name in the response to this post), etc..
2 - everyone else who is indifferent to IaP asking what the big deal is, saying to chill out, and being forced to defend themselves.
Why is it so impossible to have a civil discourse on anything? This is what I've seen...change my mind.
Can anyone produce a post here from someone that was specifically "against IaP and was whining and complaining about it"? All the posts i've read (or made) are one of two things:
1 - people crying about losing IaP. Threatening to leave, accusing people of attacking the app creator without evidence, name calling (i'll get called a pejorative name in the response to this post), etc..
2 - everyone else who is indifferent to IaP asking what the big deal is, saying to chill out, and being forced to defend themselves.
Why is it so impossible to have a civil discourse on anything? This is what I've seen...change my mind.
Well I started trying to gather quotes, across the various threads, but I’m struggling to be able to quote or link other comments back to here. Any help appreciated!
Also, I don’t really get what that would prove? The main issue here is DB’s attitude. People can debate whether the feel tools are right or wrong, but what’s slightly frustrating is having to repeat some of the facts and background again and again as more new readers join these conversations.
I wonder if DB would let us sticky some of the key points
The efforts that some of our players put forth to help others is, and will always be, appreciated. It is what makes communities like these great.
However, I want to clarify some things:
- We cannot support player-made tools. There are many reasons for this, but the main one is that it would be impossible for us to monitor said tools on a regular basis. This does not mean that such tools are automatically in breach of or in compliance with our Terms of Service, but it does mean that players use third-party tools at their own risk.
- Regarding the tool made by TekmanRO: I made a mistake by pinning the thread back in the day. I did it as a courtesy towards a player wanting to help other players, nothing more. It was neither meant as an endorsement, nor a recommendation. Furthermore, at the time the tool post was pinned, the tool itself was very different. It evolved into something else. I removed the thread when it became clear that the tool could be used to exploit the game in ways that we did not anticipate.
- Potential exploits that have been reported to us will be looked into, and appropriate actions will be taken to safeguard the game from exploits and cheating.
I am saddened to hear that TekmanRo might have been the subject of abusive behavior from fellow players.
I also regret that similar behavior, though less severe, is also found on our forums.
We all have a part to play in making our online worlds a better place, and this can easily be achieved by thinking carefully before posting something in a denigrating/offensive way. By all means write out your thoughts if it makes you feel better – but then think twice (or more) about actually posting it.
We encourage feedback, and we love the support you show for the game. Please keep that positivity and constructive attitude in mind and avoid hostile or insulting behavior towards the game and one another.
Thank you everyone for keeping the comments generally civil so far. I always find it encouraging when we are able to have a positive discussion on a matter that we have some disagreement.
Can anyone produce a post here from someone that was specifically "against IaP and was whining and complaining about it"? All the posts i've read (or made) are one of two things:
1 - people crying about losing IaP. Threatening to leave, accusing people of attacking the app creator without evidence, name calling (i'll get called a pejorative name in the response to this post), etc..
2 - everyone else who is indifferent to IaP asking what the big deal is, saying to chill out, and being forced to defend themselves.
Why is it so impossible to have a civil discourse on anything? This is what I've seen...change my mind.
I hope you read the OP. The intent of this thread was to bring stories to DB's attention so that when they made a decision they could be well informed of people's general positive attitude towards the IaP app. I think that point was made, though with a lot of unnecessary arguments along the way. At the end of the day, it is not for us to decide what is against the ToS and what is not. DB is free to interpret them as they please and even to change them if they wish. People may feel like saying something like, "It's a Macro... please kill it..." or "It's not a Macro... please preserve it..." but at the end of the day, that doesn't matter. Only the way it will effect the player base.
Ironically, the tool has been taken down but not by DB, for other reasons and I can tell you that it has effected the players in my fleet. There is a sense of discouragement, frustration, and a diminishing hope that DB will be able to maintain a positive relationship with it's players. Even though the fate of IaP was decided outside of DB, their implicit attitude in the situation has done nothing to build relations with some of the most dedicated players in the game. In fact, there has been a great deal of lost trust whether it is DB's fault or not. We can only hope that DB can learn from what happened here and find a way to make their customers feel valued. Again, any comments like "DB doesn't value the players..." are useless... talk is cheap... you can talk all you want... it is not in your court to decide the future of DB's relationship with the players... it is in their court.
We cannot support player-made tools. There are many reasons for this, but the main one is that it would be impossible for us to monitor said tools on a regular basis. This does not mean that such tools are automatically in breach of or in compliance with our Terms of Service, but it does mean that players use third-party tools at their own risk.
I'm not a programmer, but would an approved public API be something that is useful? Something that controls what is and is not allowed, and what sort of data is being passed?
I genuinely don't know how that sort of thing works, so feel free to correct me.
Having a public API means allowing 3rd party tools.
It's ironic to say "the tool evolved". One man was capable of improving the game via API, without even being paid. Db was not interested in a better game. So sad.
Having a public API means allowing 3rd party tools.
I think that if they can control the API so a 3rd party tool does not allow one to say launch a voyage, or do any actions other than retrieve data, it would be ok to allow it. I don't know how APIs work. I don't know if this is possible. But that's sort of the root of my suggestion.
Having a public API means allowing 3rd party tools.
I think that if they can control the API so a 3rd party tool does not allow one to say launch a voyage, or do any actions other than retrieve data, it would be ok to allow it. I don't know how APIs work. I don't know if this is possible. But that's sort of the root of my suggestion.
Yes. That would be ideal. A public API let's DB say, any use of that API is allowed. Any use of something outside the API is not.
DB could do that if it wanted to. Where that fits in their other priorities for the game is something only they can answer.
Having a public API means allowing 3rd party tools.
It's ironic to say "the tool evolved". One man was capable of improving the game via API, without even being paid. Db was not interested in a better game. So sad.
So, you DON'T believe "the tool evolved"? Because the other option is that people who were using it to CHEAT were doing so with an UNALTERED program. {Before 47 people have an angry meltdown, the developer him/herself was quoted BY A PRO-APP PLAYER as saying people had started cheating with the App.}
"The truth is like a lion; you don't have to defend it. Let it loose; it will defend itself."
Having a public API means allowing 3rd party tools.
It's ironic to say "the tool evolved". One man was capable of improving the game via API, without even being paid. Db was not interested in a better game. So sad.
So, you DON'T believe "the tool evolved"? Because the other option is that people who were using it to CHEAT were doing so with an UNALTERED program. {Before 47 people have an angry meltdown, the developer him/herself was quoted BY A PRO-APP PLAYER as saying people had started cheating with the App.}
The tool has not "evolved", the STT program remained full of bugs/exploits and incomplete. Unfortunately DB is not interested in replicating the functions of IAP, and is not capable of fixing the bugs/exploits. They are not friendly with their customers, and it's ironic that one unpaid man working open source has done more to improve the game than the Tilting Point budget.
The problem will not go away. Look at the fate of GoTA for clues.
I've read the comments, participated in the debates, and for 2+ days I've subconsciously run ALL of this material through an empathy filter in my brain, and while my opinion of the AIP app has not changed, I now believe I understand WHY those of you who are/were big fans loved it so much, and WHY you now are feeling like you've been punched in the gut.
Here was my epiphany, and I have @5000 Quatloos primarily to thank for this: I read everything 5Q writes, and if there was one theme to all of them, it is that 5Q is methodical, detailed, organized, and has a compulsion to achieve optimization. To people like 5Q, IAP was not simply an app, it was a life preserver.
I can send out a voyage, spend a few seconds crunching the numbers roughly in my head, hit send, and generally feel good about my choice, so I was never really going to feel the true value of the IAP tool, but for people like 5Q, it allowed you to save yourselves from yourselves, because I now understand that you simply cannot turn off that need to make sure you are always hitting maximum efficiency/value.
On that level, I am very sorry for you guys. If I can be of service, please do not hesitate to reach out to me and I will do what I can to assist you
Comments
The problem will not go away because the game is basically incomplete without Iampicard or a similar app.
Except the developer pulled it not DB. So blame the developer in this case.
Honestly, maybe it **tsk tsk**, but MAN is it ever time to move on
EDIT: Not being able to say s. u. c. k. s. is weird
DB precipitated all of this with their deletion of the support thread in the Ready Room last week without any explanation. This is directly tied to their unwillingness to engage honestly with their community.
I was a frequent user of the tool and loved having it, but let’s not overstate the matter. It was a tool of convenience, not necessity. Is it as easy to manage? No. Is it impossible? Absolutely not. I played the game just fine for most of its existence without it, and I have mostly adjusted right back to doing what I did before. Life will go on.
LIfe will go on but in the end the minority crybabies won.
The problem that needs to be addressed is for similar tools what are the guidelines? DB should engage with it’s 3rd party developer community or else it risks disappearing.
The game is simple at its core (it’s just an RNG engine), but there’s a lot going on that management tools help with because the app itself has deficiencies.
This is an opportunity for DB to show some leadership and honestly and directly engage us on the subject and set some guidelines. Instead they are sticking their heads in the sand and ignoring us.
Unfortunately no one else can do it for them, so the whole kit and kaboodle is threatened by their inaction. And the game and the community will be a lot poorer for it.
And ironically, by driving some people back out of the Gauntlet, probably now have a slightly better advantage there. "Fair" is in the eye of the beholder and what things they choose to do or not do.
Good point, the only Gauntlet I've ever finished 1st in was before the tool was around
And I won my first Gauntlet I started since the tool is gone, only the second I’ve ever won. I think a lot of players forgot how to Gauntlet on their own.
It's much more likely that they are not playing Gauntlet at all. And that very soon they won't be playing the game at all and won't be spending money supporting the game we all very fond of.
+1
+1
Life will go even if this game has the fate of GoTA. Poor management choices have always consequences.
But the endorsement for the tool still remains, until it is retracted. The tool (and others like it) have been under review for 3+ months now, but that isn’t a retraction, it is saying keep the status quo unless/until we tell you otherwise.
What happened after that, with the developer of Iampicard alledging he was doxxed and personally threatened, is on a small but vocal minority of players here. I’m inclined to believe his claims and I’m ashamed to be in the same community as people who would do this. But you could prove me wrong.
What doesn’t change is the ramifications of DB’s lack of interest in the matter. And if that’s how DB intend to treat any dedicated players who devote time, skill and effort to make the game more enjoyable, not just for their own gratification, but whole fleets and social groups, then it’s absolutely disgusting.
I encourage anyone reading this who may be responsible for any other tools (like spreadsheets, wiki, crew cost calculators, discord bots, farming tools and anything else out there), please consider the bigger picture and show support against DB’s lack of interest in the community work.
Protest by ceasing access to your STT aid/tools, closing your wallet and/or add I Am Picard to your username.
Another fake account made by the antipicard crybabies just to single post. This thread is ripe with them.
1 - people crying about losing IaP. Threatening to leave, accusing people of attacking the app creator without evidence, name calling (i'll get called a pejorative name in the response to this post), etc..
2 - everyone else who is indifferent to IaP asking what the big deal is, saying to chill out, and being forced to defend themselves.
Why is it so impossible to have a civil discourse on anything? This is what I've seen...change my mind.
Well I started trying to gather quotes, across the various threads, but I’m struggling to be able to quote or link other comments back to here. Any help appreciated!
Also, I don’t really get what that would prove? The main issue here is DB’s attitude. People can debate whether the feel tools are right or wrong, but what’s slightly frustrating is having to repeat some of the facts and background again and again as more new readers join these conversations.
I wonder if DB would let us sticky some of the key points
It's going to become a scene out of Spartacus around here
However, I want to clarify some things:
- We cannot support player-made tools. There are many reasons for this, but the main one is that it would be impossible for us to monitor said tools on a regular basis. This does not mean that such tools are automatically in breach of or in compliance with our Terms of Service, but it does mean that players use third-party tools at their own risk.
- Regarding the tool made by TekmanRO: I made a mistake by pinning the thread back in the day. I did it as a courtesy towards a player wanting to help other players, nothing more. It was neither meant as an endorsement, nor a recommendation. Furthermore, at the time the tool post was pinned, the tool itself was very different. It evolved into something else. I removed the thread when it became clear that the tool could be used to exploit the game in ways that we did not anticipate.
- Potential exploits that have been reported to us will be looked into, and appropriate actions will be taken to safeguard the game from exploits and cheating.
I am saddened to hear that TekmanRo might have been the subject of abusive behavior from fellow players.
I also regret that similar behavior, though less severe, is also found on our forums.
We all have a part to play in making our online worlds a better place, and this can easily be achieved by thinking carefully before posting something in a denigrating/offensive way. By all means write out your thoughts if it makes you feel better – but then think twice (or more) about actually posting it.
We encourage feedback, and we love the support you show for the game. Please keep that positivity and constructive attitude in mind and avoid hostile or insulting behavior towards the game and one another.
I hope you read the OP. The intent of this thread was to bring stories to DB's attention so that when they made a decision they could be well informed of people's general positive attitude towards the IaP app. I think that point was made, though with a lot of unnecessary arguments along the way. At the end of the day, it is not for us to decide what is against the ToS and what is not. DB is free to interpret them as they please and even to change them if they wish. People may feel like saying something like, "It's a Macro... please kill it..." or "It's not a Macro... please preserve it..." but at the end of the day, that doesn't matter. Only the way it will effect the player base.
Ironically, the tool has been taken down but not by DB, for other reasons and I can tell you that it has effected the players in my fleet. There is a sense of discouragement, frustration, and a diminishing hope that DB will be able to maintain a positive relationship with it's players. Even though the fate of IaP was decided outside of DB, their implicit attitude in the situation has done nothing to build relations with some of the most dedicated players in the game. In fact, there has been a great deal of lost trust whether it is DB's fault or not. We can only hope that DB can learn from what happened here and find a way to make their customers feel valued. Again, any comments like "DB doesn't value the players..." are useless... talk is cheap... you can talk all you want... it is not in your court to decide the future of DB's relationship with the players... it is in their court.
I'm not a programmer, but would an approved public API be something that is useful? Something that controls what is and is not allowed, and what sort of data is being passed?
I genuinely don't know how that sort of thing works, so feel free to correct me.
It's ironic to say "the tool evolved". One man was capable of improving the game via API, without even being paid. Db was not interested in a better game. So sad.
I think that if they can control the API so a 3rd party tool does not allow one to say launch a voyage, or do any actions other than retrieve data, it would be ok to allow it. I don't know how APIs work. I don't know if this is possible. But that's sort of the root of my suggestion.
Yes. That would be ideal. A public API let's DB say, any use of that API is allowed. Any use of something outside the API is not.
DB could do that if it wanted to. Where that fits in their other priorities for the game is something only they can answer.
So, you DON'T believe "the tool evolved"? Because the other option is that people who were using it to CHEAT were doing so with an UNALTERED program. {Before 47 people have an angry meltdown, the developer him/herself was quoted BY A PRO-APP PLAYER as saying people had started cheating with the App.}
The tool has not "evolved", the STT program remained full of bugs/exploits and incomplete. Unfortunately DB is not interested in replicating the functions of IAP, and is not capable of fixing the bugs/exploits. They are not friendly with their customers, and it's ironic that one unpaid man working open source has done more to improve the game than the Tilting Point budget.
The problem will not go away. Look at the fate of GoTA for clues.
Here was my epiphany, and I have @5000 Quatloos primarily to thank for this: I read everything 5Q writes, and if there was one theme to all of them, it is that 5Q is methodical, detailed, organized, and has a compulsion to achieve optimization. To people like 5Q, IAP was not simply an app, it was a life preserver.
I can send out a voyage, spend a few seconds crunching the numbers roughly in my head, hit send, and generally feel good about my choice, so I was never really going to feel the true value of the IAP tool, but for people like 5Q, it allowed you to save yourselves from yourselves, because I now understand that you simply cannot turn off that need to make sure you are always hitting maximum efficiency/value.
On that level, I am very sorry for you guys. If I can be of service, please do not hesitate to reach out to me and I will do what I can to assist you